Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Hi, This might be a stupid question, but if I can get the answer anywhere I figure its here. I've seen a few places where Superman refers to himself as being human which of course could just mean from a spiritual, moral, or personal identity standpoint as opposed to biological. Then I was looking at the story where the two space travellers Kryp and Tonn (I love when things are super literal) colonized Krypton, and I got to wondering if there was supposed to be some common source from which Humans (from earth) and Kryptonians both spring. This has just been sticking in my mind and really bugging me. I don't know why but I really prefer Superman to have his alieness intact.  Anyway I was just looking to get some insights from some knowlegeable Superman fans. Thanks.

There has been a canon Earther/Kandorian marriage with children: Van Zee and his wife.

As to common source of humanity?  I'm not sure.  Earth has been altered by extrterrestial interference.  Immortal Man and Vandal Savage via that meteor.  There's also Atlantis, Oceanius, Paradise Island, Gemworld, and a few others.

In one issue of a Superman comic, Superman took two time travelers back to Earth's past, showing a HIGHLY advanced culture on the site of where Metropolis would once stand.  They used armored suits, instead of Time Bubbles, to travel.  That was millions of years in the past, before the Indians arrived.

It's possible that Kryp or Tonn is from that aincent Earth culture.  We just don't know where Kryp and Tonn came from.

Kryptonians are human...but this is tricky to think about.

The original explanation was that Kryptonians had evolved to suit the harsh environment and greater gravity of Krypton. Technically, when you evolve you become a different species and can't reproduce with the other one anymore.

So one of two things could be true: either Kryptonians biologically adapted to their habitat, but didn't actually evolve into a different species, or Kryptonians are not homo sapiens. If the latter is true, Lois and Clark could have a child, but that child couldn't.

I always looked at it as that Krypton was Earth, in that sense that it is meant as a direct metaphor for Earth. Another world with people in most ways just like us. But an older world, that reached the point where they were able to achive many of the things we aspire to. They made it past all the same crap we find ourselves dealing with.

They were a world that had finally made it.

Yet the sad thing is that even after all of that, it was still simple stupid human arrogance that lead to the worlds demise because the Kryptonian council just could not concieve that they were not masters of everything.  That even for all the worlds wonders, beauty and achivment they could still be destroyed by forces of nature. The even sadder part is that Krypton didn't have to die. Even with the planet being destroyed if they had listened to Jor-El they could have found a new home somewhere.

So now all that remain are basically scraps and random elements.

But also, her last son who would grow to become the greatest hero the universe has ever known.

It seems to me that Krypton being descended from only two people would have some problems. Maybe it was just a myth?

It was a myth...but maybe it was also true.   :D

Every species invariably comes from two people...that origin of Krypton was probably modeled after the Adam and Eve story, to a degree...

I would say that, as a general rule, Kryptonians are humanoid, but not strictly human unless you use the word "human" as a blanket term like the words "dinosaur" or "crocodilian". Outwardly, you couldn't tell a human from a Kryptonian (or a Thanagarian, for that matter ... as in the case of the Silver Age Hawkman and Hawkgirl). However, they do have significant physiological differences. Humans can't process solar energy (with the exception of red solar radiation) the way Kryptonians can, which accounts for a large portion of their super-powers in a non-Kryptonian environment. Humans can't do that, no matter what s type of sun they're under. Now, I'm not discounting that somewhere in the dim primordial past, Kryptonians, Earthlings, Thanagarians, natives of Rann, etc. may have had a common ancestor (it's safe to assume that the Daxamites are somehow genetically related to Kryptonians). In fact, Thanagarians and Rannians (or is that "Rannites") have more in common with humans from Earth than Kryptonians because they do not possess super-powers when outside their native environments. But somewhere on the evolutionary tree, the Kryptonians, Thanagarians, Daxamites, Earthlings and so on branched off from each other (like alligators, crocodiles, gavials and caimans). Same but different.

For a Bronze Age canonical treatment of this issue, I always think of Maggin's brief Krypton history in either Miracle Monday or Last Son of Krypton (where there is a lot of talk about alien races).

There is another, less-canonical treatment that I'm aware of, along the lines of the writings of Phillip Jose Farmer and the Sherlock Holmes fans.  I think Peter Coogan was involved in this history of Krypton that tied together the inhabitants of Daxam, Krypton, Earth, etc into one race/shared history.  Is anyone aware of this?  Links?

While not canon, the ending of Red Son is just so perfect a bookend to the whole of the Superman myth it by rights ought to be. Check it out sometime, I think it'll make you smile. :)

 -Def.

Golden Age Superman and the Earth-Two Superman might be genuinely alien as we have no evidence he ever had children with Lois nor any viable descendants.

Silver/Bronze Age aka Pre Crisis Superman is evidently human by the genetic definition of the species albeit by less rigourous species definitions he could still be considered alien.  In numerous Pre Crisis stories, he's had descendants with Terran humans such as the Superman of 2465 and The Exile at the Edge of Eternity.

http://superman.nu/a/400/exile/

Byrned Era Superman is evidently human going by Byrne's World of Krypton #6 where he specifically states this, the Armageddon 2001 stories where he interbreeds with Terran humans, Kingdom Come/The Kingdom & Jonathan, and the Superman Dynasty of DC One Million.

Birthright Superman seems to be possibly human going by the daughter Mxy says he and Lois could possibly have if they chose to have a baby.  It remains unknown if this child would be viable or a mule, so Waid's incarnation is suspect for humanity at this point.

BTW, Tales of the Legion of Super-Heroes #325 confirms that Daxam and Krypton have the same genetic heritage and the two humanoid races are really the same one.  Mon-El was taught that Daxam was the parent world and Krypton was the colony which jibes with the Kryp and Tonn story.

True, but there would be certain "biological impurities" if the entire race came from two parents. That's assuming no other humanoid landed on the planet.

That certainly was a good ending, and it made Superman a LITERAL "Man of Tomorrow." Despite the error of having Superman's ship land in 1938 (when the story clearly made that impossible--it should've landed in 1923), Red Son is nearly perfect.

I just remembered that Superman/Batman referenced having the Kingdom Come Superman in their continuity at least at first.  KC Supes fits into the DC One Million timeline according to the Linear Men in an issue of DC One Million.  Both KC and DC1M have Kal successfully interbreeding with Terran humans.

Ergo, Birthright Superman is also human going by the genetic interbreeding criterion.

I thought the ending was the ultimate irony both on what Krypton really was and who Superman was decended from.  :wink:

What's disturbing is how Superman and Lois were attracted to each other in Red Son given how Lois is actually his own ancestor.

Is it any more disturbing than Kara setting Kal up with women who look exactly like her?

(http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/97/400/97_4_0000289.jpg)
 :D

Urgh!  I remember that Silver Age story.

Red Son is a Post Crisis Elseworlds story so the flippancy and silliness of some of the Silver Age doesn't apply.

Even if we discount the different eras, Red Son has Superman and Lois being blood relations.  That supercourtship story has only a lookalike Kara and not a true blood-relation so it's just a tad less creepy.

But not by much.

At least it's not as strange when Linda Lee poped in to his mind as a possible life partner in the Day of Doom http://superman.nu/tales4/DayOfDoom/?page=3

I agree, to me, that harkens back to Romulus and Remus establishing Rome more than Adam and Eve...

Wow! This topic is meandering all about.

Regarding Kryp & Tonn: The story of Kryp and Tonn (http://superman.nu/tales2/born/) may have been a legend or it may have been the invention of the teacher Du-Vor. He may have been the Cary Bates of Krypton! The story is presented as a story, not as a history lesson. In the Krypton Chronicles (http://superman.nu/tales2/chronicles/1/), Superman couldn't get info further back than Erok (http://superman.nu/tales2/chronicles/3/?page=24), who first used the surname El. Any stories from before that time are unverifiable.

Regarding Luma Lynai: Was she known as "Superwoman" on her world? Is that what the "S" on her uniform stands for? Did she ever appear in another story?

Regarding the original topic: It seems to me that Kryptonians, Thanagarians, Rannians, and many others (like some of the Legionnaires) were also considered to be humans just like Terrans. I'm not sure the Martians (like J'onn J'onzz) or Durlans (like Chameleon Boy) were considered to be humans, but they might be. They were certainly humanoids.

I tend to support Spaceman Spiff's idea that the story of Kryp and Tonn was just a legend retold by Du-Vor to get children in his class to settle down. The idea that two races possessing advanced technology settled on Krypton, then reverted to a stone-age period where they would have to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, is more than a little strange.

While the Kryp & Tonn story may be only legend, the colonization of Krypton from outside is supported by Maggin's Superman: Last Son of Krypton and Tales of the Legion of Super-Heroes #325 (Mon-El tells Ultra Boy Daxam colonized Krypton).

Green Lantern #35, Vol. 3 (Jan. 1993) describes the Great Humanoid Diaspora of around 5 million B.C.  This helps explain the compatibilities of most DCU human/humanoid races, and may be related to the Daxam/Krypton link above.

What exactly did Mon-El say about Daxam colonizing Krypton specifically?


What was the "Great Humanoid Disaporia"?

I have to paraphrase since I don't have the book at work, but when Jo asked which world was the original and which the colony, Mon said they (the Daxamites) might be accused of chauvinism, but he was taught in school that Daxam was the parent world.  Dev-Em -- still a Kryptonian survivor in this era -- woke up from K-poisoning at that moment to argue, no way he's claiming Mon-El as his long lost daddy.



Basically, this was a seeding of worlds with humanoids in this era.  That means most if not all humans/humanoids came from a common source dating back to this event.

Hm. . .Daxam the Kryptonian ancestral home? Interesting theory, and that would really explain the similarities in Daxam/Kryptonian abilities under a yellow sun. But if that's true, then why are Daxamites mortally vulnerable to lead while Kryptonians can utilize lead to survive the effects of kryptonite?

 Puzzling, puzzling. . .but interesting though. :)

 -Def.

Why do they have different reactions to lead and kryptonite?  Answer: Genetic drift.

Note that both races share a common inability to see through lead via X-ray vision while nearly all other X-ray vision beings (Martians, Andromedans, Vartox, Ultra Boy, etc.) have no such artificial restriction.  That's esp. so considering Kryptonians/Daxamites can see through denser, more durable substances like uranium, osmium, etc. so the lead limitation is very specific not a density issue.  It does seem an odd coincidence that this is the same substance Daxamites are deathly vulnerable to so it may be evidence of a vestigial lead vulnerability in Kryptonians.

Similarly, Daxamites can be protected from lead poisoning by an anti-lead serum whose key ingredient is green kryptonite.  That is another odd coincidence.

Of course, we have the almost identical super-powers they exhibit in our environment as further evidence.

TOLSH #325 just gave canonical support to a theory the above facts tended to support already.

Great googa mooga.  :shock:

 There may be something to this. Interesting, interesting. Genetic drift could explain the Kryptonian/Kryptonite , Daxamite/Lead connection. It could be that the irradiated elements of kryptonite have some kind of basis in lead, irradiated by Krypton's explosion. . .or not, given the Daxamite immunity to green k. Still, it's an increasingly appealing theory. Kind of explains to me how we can have two isolationist cultures who gain extraordinary powers under a yellow sun.  :)

Going back to the date problems of Red Son. I remember reading on Mark Millar's forum once how it wasn't an issue; in the book continuity he said that Stalin had survived his first assassination attempt, and that made the dates line up properly.

If this is true then where does Halk Kar and the planet Thoron http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Thoron fit in?

First, I'm not sure Halk Kar was still in continuity for the Silver Age/Bronze Age Superman.  He's considered by some to be the Golden Age version of Mon-El, esp. since Mon's origin is almost completely ripped-off from Halk.

Second, even if he and Thoron are still in that continuity, no evidence exists to tie his race directly with Kryptonians, outside of similar powers and living in the same solar system.  While not in canon, that evidence would strongly suggest the Thoronians were seeded from Daxam or Krypton themselves.  It's highly unlikely that such a similar race would develop independently anywhere else let alone the same solar system.  It's far more likely that they're also related to the Daxamites and Kryptonians.  It's just uncertain which is the parent world to Thoron.

Here's a further bit of evidence that tends to support the genetic drift theory.

In the classic Superman of 2465/2466 stories, Kal-El's descendants evolved immunity to kryptonite (though they suffered from a different vulnerability to an unnamed fallout from a nuclear war that contaminated all water).

If Kal-El's descendants could develop different reactions to his classic kryptonite weakness, then we can suppose genetic drift did the same for the Daxamite colonists on Krypton.

I believe that good old Halk Kar was reconned into the Earth-2 Superman continuity.

Getting back to the thread topic, a more key question to be answered is: What is human?

We have difficulties with that fundamental question already without invoking thoughts of extraterrestrials.

Women weren't considered equal or even human in many quarters and still are considered that way in some parts of the world today.

Blacks, Amerinds, and other non-whites weren't considered human to European colonizers before.

Down's Syndrome children are clearly sterile yet are also clearly human.

Much debate rages over the humanity of the unborn and at what point does 'human' life apply.

Since we don't have that fundamental definition nailed down, I guess Kryptonians can be or not be human depending on how one looks at it.

IOW, they can be both human and non-human depending on how one defines things.

Exact reference from TOLSH #325:

Mon-El: I'll let you in on one of the galaxy's hidden secrets, Jo.  Kryptonians and Daxamites share the same genetic heritage ...
(page 6, panel 2)

Gigi Cusimano: You and him [Dev-Em] related?
White Witch: We are all products of planetary seeding, officer.  Naltorians can trace their line back ... to the Sorcerer's World, and even to Earth!
(page 6, panel 3 - 4)

Ultra Boy: Wow!  So, which one was the colony planet, Mon-El?  Krypton or Daxam?
(page 6, panel 5)

Mon-El: Well, I suppose we could be accused of chauvinism, but I was taught in school that Daxam is the parent world.
Dev-Em: Uhhhh [wakes up from kryptonite poisoning] ... No way, Mon-El.  I'm not claiming you as my long-lost Daddy.
(page 6, panel 6)

Well, not to bring the spectre of Post-Crisis continuity into the discussion, but in the pre-reboot Legion and Valor titles it was presumed that Lar Gand help to seed certain distant worlds with survivors of the alien Dominators genetic tampering during the Invasion! crisis, thus paving the way for the contemporary planets and cultures of the 30th century legion. Thus, Valor/Lar Gand became a messianic figure, his Valor identity a deity to many people, so much so he had to take the martian term for Wanderer, M'onel. Yeah, yeah it's hokey post-crisis revisionism, but the essential premise isn't entirely unsound. It'd explain all those human-esque species out there as of the 30th century. Of course, how that factors in Rann and Thanagar is beyond me but hey, it's a start. ;)