Superman Through the Ages! Forum

During the many time travel trips that members of the super family, we the fans were told repeatedly “history cannot be changed.” I suggest this was a mythconception, and I offer the following as my reasoning. Whenever one or more of the super family were in other time periods no matter how long they were gone, time carried on for the rest of the our DC world, disasters happened, aliens invaded, Luthor, the Joker, or whoever carried out some crime, so on and so on. Even if the returned a fraction of a second after they had left our time, they were actually returning to our past, and all the things they then prevented changed the timeline and therefore changed history. If the reasoning was “well they hadn’t happened yet” then in fact by going back to before any disaster or crime would fall into that category and could be prevented. Or did they happen and cause a new timeline in a new DC universe? Could this be the cause of the multiverse where there were so many similarities between their world and ours?

Just a point to ponder

Superman tried changing his own personal time-line in the comics by trying to save Krypton, and failing.  That's where that myth came from.

During the Challenge of the Super-Friends cartoon, there were two time tavel stories that did change time.  The first had the Legion of Doom prevent Wonder Woman, Superman, and Green Lantern from becoming heroes.  The remaining Super-Friends went back and restored the time line.  The second had Superman SAVE Krypton by using a dampning rod from the Super-Mobile to prevent Krypton's sun from blowing up.  He then returned to the present and saw that the Legion of Doom had conquered the Earth and killed off all the Super-Friends save Robin.  Supes then went back and removed the dampning rod and restored the destruction of Krypton.    Some choice: which world was more deserving of life?  Earth or Krypton.

Re: Saving Krypton or Earth --

It depends on which version of Krypton we're talking about.

The cartoon version and all versions save for the Byrned Krypton were paradises with superior people and values.  They were a tragic loss for the universe that many alien civilizations in the know wondered why the Guardians allowed such a magnificent world and its people to be swept away.  So, in the animated series' context, Krypton would probably be more deserving -- discounting that Black Mercy fantasy world Moore had Superman experience.

I guess this means animated Superman had more personal emotional ties to Earth having grown up and lived here as opposed to a Krypton that was literally decades away both in the past and in light-years distance.

Re: Changing history --

Interesting POV, Just A Fan.  Superman and others that used his method of time travel found it impossible to change history.  The 'choosing when to return' was supposed to be an aspect of an immutable tapestry of time.  They left and came back at specific moments because they were meant to do so and had not free will in the matter.

That was modified by three factors in later DC books.

Other methods of time travel did sometimes permit changing history.

Beings from other timelines could alter each others' histories as Superman once did to an alternate world where he stopped Atlantis from sinking, Lincoln from being assasinated, and Krypton from exploding.

LSH established that free will does indeed exist and all worlds constantly diverge from each point in time from all choices being made.  The LSH problem with time travel -- which Brainiac 5 solved -- wasn't so much travelling between eras, but finding one's home timeline and present in the constantly diverging plethora of timelines.  Hence, Querl designed and built the Time Beacon at the Metropolis Time Institute that served like a chronal lighthouse showing time travellers to way to their home.  Douglas Nolan's mutant brain turned its vast power -- capable of transmuting a human body and its clothing to an near-indestructible isotope of iron -- to defying the Time Beacon and experiencing the alternate histories normally blocked by the beacon.  He found a world that he could be happy in -- where he took Ferro Lad's (brother Andrew) place in the LSH -- and promptly disappeared into it.  It's unknown if Douglas' mind had anything to do with Shadow Lass/Woman surviving her Science Asteroid mission where she was supposed to have died in Adult Legion history, or if we just shifted mainstream DCU history to a track where she lived instead and she still died in the alternate history.

Let me make sure I follow you.

You're saying that if Superman left our timeline now, at say 8:15am on Monday, and went into the past, time would continue forward for those of us left in the "present" (so that, for example, if he spent 48 hours back in 1881, we'd spend 48 without him here in 2005).  That would take us to Wednesday at 8:15.  But when he returns, it's 8:15:01 (or such) and Monday again, meaning the Tuesday and Wednesday we lived without him never happened?

An interesting idea, except I can't remember a single instance where this was shown in the comics.  And if it isn't it print, it didn't happen.

The way time-travel is shown in the comics, Superman can spend all kinds of time in the past in less than a heartbeat.  From our point of view, he would simply disappear one moment and re-appear the next.  Time would not move forward for us.  (Star Trek did this too: in "The Inner Light," Picard lives a full lifetime in the few moments he lays unconcious on the Enterprise)

Still, I don't suppose there would be anything to prevent Supes from coming back too early or too late -- the timestream would probably be a tricky thing to navigate with precision -- he just doesn't do it in any story I've read.  I also wondered why, when he goes to the 30th century, it's always exactly 1000 years ahead, to the day.  It would be interesting if he miscalculated once or twice and arrived at Legion HQ in the wrong month ("Oops, sorry, already had this adventure!")

Nightwing --

"Oops - sorry already typed this response!" :wink:  :lol:

Jay Zilbur once wrote an article published in the back of an LSH issue called "The Legion Fixed Time Link" IIRC.

He noted the potential problems of uncontrolled time travel incl. both heroes and villains summoning countless versions of themselves in an attempt to overwhelm each other.  He also noted that the LSH would encounter a great deal of trouble keeping track of what time to summon Superboy or Supergirl from, and how those three months in LSH time would still be with the superteens when they returned to their own times, so they'd be aging at a phenomenal rate.

While the first problem is more of a story limitation, the last two are very real and avoidable.  While they could space out their time trips, the only real way to avoid the aging-out-of-synch problem is if the time spent in the future exactly matches the time missing in the past.

Hence, the Legion Fixed Time Link was instituted.  Superboy must travel exactly 1,019 years (or whatever number) to the future and back.  Supergirl and Karate Kid had 1,000 year time links.

That same aging-out-of-synch problem would be a problem for Superman too if he chose to spend unbalanced amounts of time in different eras.  Judging by his actions, he imposed a personal fixed time link on himself while time travelling.  If he spent two days in another time, then he came back two days later in his present era.

in one story superman met a couple (man & wife) of time travellers from earth's past.  they arrived at different points of the 20th century.  he arrived in the "present".  she arrived decades earlier.  their equipment damaged beyond repair.  she grew old waiting for her husband to appear.  superman took them back to their own time.  she was young again.  superman claimed that when a time traveller returned to his/her own time they would be the age the were when they left.  no matter how long they stayed elsewhen.  could superman's power & beliefs affect how time travel works when he is involved?

You're quite possibly right, Ilozymandias.

Zilbur's article was LSH fan fic/speculation while the story you referenced is canon.

Recall also that he and other super-speedsters seemed to consciously choose whether to allow relativistic and transrelativistic effects to apply to them or not.  In this particular case, we're focussing on his perception of time.  He didn't experience time dilation or stoppage at near or at lightspeed.  It would make sense that he'd be able to alter time flow and perception for himself and others travelling with him.  He certainly didn't age faster at super-speed either but kept synch with his preferred timeframe.

But if you're right, then Kal-El and his family must have also made a conscious choice to return to fixed duration time periods since they clearly were capable of returning anytime they wanted to.

That thing about time travellers being unable to meet themselves, seemed to only apply to stories that involved Superman.  Other time travellers (in pre-crisis DC) were able to "meet" themselves.  Without the time traveller becoming a "phantom".

I was wondering if there was any consistent "rules" over time travel in the DC Universe, pre or post-Crisis.  I thought that Superman could not enter his own past and thus meet "himself".  (Supergirl mentions this rule in "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" unaware that she and the Legion have traveled to a time where Kara is truly "in the past".)   :cry:

But could you go into the future and meet your future "self"?  Or perhaps a POSSIBLE future "self"?  We've just recently seen the Teen Titans meet their future selves ten years hence.  So have the laws of time travel changed by the Crisis, or is it simply up to the writer?

I seem to remember a story wherein Superboy and Superman had to charge each other head-on, blowing each other back to their respective times, when they meet.

Apparently Supes has a run-in with a sort of time-cop, ala Grant Morrison or Star Trek Voyager in Action 502, 1980.  Haven't read it.

That was a story where Superboy somehow time-travelled to present-day Metropolis where he met Superman, his adult self.  They found it impossible to time travel after meeting each other since Superman's super-mind calculated that after meeting yourself in time travel, it would take power and speed greater than they could muster to break the time barrier after that.  After some adventures in our time, the two thought of a way to break the time barrier.  Superboy stood firm on a deserted mountaintop while Superman charged at him.  Superboy if he stands firm is the immovable object.  Superman if he charges full out is the irresistible force.  The meeting of irresistible force upon immovable object created enough of a paradox that Superboy was automatically jettisoned back to his home time era.

A later DCCP race with the Flash through time had Superman stranded in the 30th century since he and Superboy were coexisting in that era.  Superman remembered the above story on how they freed themselves for time travel again, so that's why they collided with each other this time, with the same results: They were flung back to their respective home eras.

Heh! I remember that one. Guess the writers forgot that the same matter can't occupy the same space at the same time. Otherwise, Superman and Superboy would've destroyed each other a la Timecop.  :wink: