Superman Through the Ages! Forum

I've been a part of crazy Super-fandom for about a year now. Thanks, Superman Through the Ages!

Anyway...I've read all 3 of Alan Moore's initial Superman stories, plus Supreme: The Story of the Year...all are great.

I've even located the unpublished Twilight of the Superheroes proposal...but there is one Superman story by Alan Moore that I've been able to find nothing about. His unpublished graphic novel, Superman Burns in Hell.

I know it's out there...does anybody know where I could find a proposal, etc. for this story? The title seems to peak my interest, and I can't help it...

DC Killed it in favor of a certain someone that nearly everyone here hates with deep seated passion ;)

Here is the tidbit:

"He also had a couple of Superman projects which never appeared, one of which was a graphic novel called Superman Burns in Hell and the other being a new, monthly team-up title called Superman Plus (insert childhood favourite here, folks). Both projects were nixed by Byrne's incoming Superman revamp, but Moore was offered the chance to work with Byrne on the team-up title providing he stuck to Byrne's plots. Moore's brilliant reply was that sure, he'd be happy to… providing Byrne inked Moore's pencils."


Great Caesar's Ghost were DC ever stupid back then, what the heck were those editors smoking?

Moore's Superman stories had a strange fate, here. "For the man who has everything" and "Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow?" have 2 editions, while DC COMICS PRESENTS #85 is unpublished! I needed a lot of time, but I found it at Mile High comics months ago.

My 2 cents (of €, you know!).

SUPERMAN ANNUAL #11: a good story. Here is considered a masterpiece only because "It's Moore's!". Today comics are too expensive to judge them only 'cause their credits box, so I don't care of who wrote it... I repeat it, it's a good story, but I hoped it was better. And it's too similar to "Terror in a tiny town" by John Byrne (from his run on FF).

SUPERMAN #423/ACTION #583: one of the stories in my top 3, alongside the MAN OF STEEL limited series and "Who took out the super from the Superman". I love it, even if it's sad to see the end of Superman... Only reading tons of Silver/Bronze Age issues I understood how tragic this story is. Lana, Jimmy, the villains... All dead. A legend in the dust.
And, I can't forget it, Cust Swan made a GREAT work.

DC COMICS PRESENTS #85: nice. Among the 3 stories, this deserve the 2nd prize, in my opinion. Moore was very able to show Kal's pain...
Odd thing: when I first read this story, I had a big headache, so I felt myself very involved!

Well, one thing's for sure: SUPERMAN BURNS IN HELL would be a really, really awesome Rasputina or Judas Priest album cover. In fact, the only way I could possibly improve on the title is by adding some exclamation points. SUPERMAN BURNS IN HELL!!! (see the difference?)

Though I don't know if we'd want an Alan Moore story told from this particular period - after CAPTAIN BRITAIN, MIRACLEMAN and SWAMP THING, all of which were legendarily imaginative, well plotted, and mindblowing in every single way, he gave us very dreary, boring, flat works like WATCHMEN. In addition to the slow paced plotting (did it REALLY require 12 issues to tell?) and unecessary characters...worst of all, Alan Moore is a funny guy, and in this period we see very little of Alan Moore's sense of humor. (Though WATCHMEN had one tidbit of the old Alan Moore we know and love that always makes me laugh: while discussing one criminal who wore a costume because he got off on being beaten up, when asked what happened to him, Night Owl responds "Oh, he tried it on Rorshach and the guy was pushed down an elevator shaft.")

While WATCHMEN is still better than most comics out today, it wasn't done when Alan Moore was in his best and most productive "mood" - and certainly not the kind of mood that is best for Superman.

I'm just rationalizing, of course, to keep from banging my forehead against the wall constantly in frustration when I remember that ALAN-FREAKIN'-MOORE could have been writing a regular Superman Comic.

Incidentally, great diss by Moore to Byrne. Remind me never to get into a "Your-Momma's-So-Fat" contest with the guy.

If we're talking about my buddy Alan Moore's Superman stories, obviously the top one was WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE MAN OF TOMORROW? What can I possibly say about this that everyone else here hasn't said?

Interesting thing I've noticed about MAN OF TOMORROW: at first, when reading it I thought it was George Perez (no relation) doing the pencils instead of Curt Swan. George has this very distinctive inking style of doing thousands of itty bitty lines, and even if he just does the inks alone, it still "looks" like a George Perez comic.

Alan Moore's greatest Superman story I think, was SUPREME. Most comics have a trippy or imaginative idea every year, or in the case of the really great ones, once every issue. SUPREME, though, had a trippy idea averaging ONCE A PAGE. There was a trophy in the back of the 40s ALLIED SUPERMEN H.Q. that was marked "HELIOS, KING OF THE SUN." Whoa. They have a King of the Sun now? Sure, it helps that Supreme was based on the blueprint of Superman, but that doesn't make any of Alan Moore's ideas any more mindblowing. Thousands of superpowered puppies that chase cars - and actually catch them to bury in the backyard, breaking into a museum to get at the dinosaur bones. Travelling in Hyperspace, they see themselves leaving BEFORE they've even arrived. WOW.

I did not like SUPERMAN ANNUAL #11 ("For the Man Who Has Everything") as much as lots of people seem to. For one thing, Superman was characterized all wrong. Superman has been established as idolizing his utopian native planet, and his father as a hero who sacrificed himself and his wife so that their son would have a chance at life. This sacrifice has inspired Superman to continually be self-sacrificing himself. So, Superman, given the chance, dreams of his heroic father as being a ranting crackpot? I cannot seriously believe that Superman, the ultimate idealist, is so cynical that he imagines his native world as a dystopia racked by social injustice and rioting.  Another work produced by Alan Moore, in his own words: "When I was in a bad mood."



When it comes to DC editors, their great decisions are inverse to the amount of mescaline being huffed around the office at any given time. It wasn't that they were doing too much drugs - it was that they weren't doing enough.  :D

I was born in the very latter Bronze age, and therefore didn't read any good Superman comics when I was a kid...except for some Superboy comics that I bought at a flea market. Like  a lot of kids, I read the Death of Superman stuff, and then quit reading comics.

1.5 years ago, I was working at a tech support place and very bored...so I started buying graphic novels to read at work. I bought Crisis on Infinite Earths, and was horrified. Then I bought 'Many Happy Returns' and was saddened again by what happened to Supergirl.

And then I bought "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" After reading it, I just kind of sat there, stunned. Any interest I had in reading post-Crisis comics was cured. Now I'm a giant Superman fan, that's where my money goes....SOMEBODY STOP ME!!!

Well to be fair by this time Krypton had become more 'gilded'. It had been revealed as early as the Jewel K story that some zone criminal were social dissidents and the late Silver and through out Bronze age versions of the origin the Science Council threaten to zone Jor-El if he even tried to warn anyone. Also anyone who landed on Krypton in these versions of the origin risked imprisonment.

It was becoming painfully obvious when it came to Krypton SUperman had blinders on. He either could not or would not see the flaws at least on a councious level but he might have seen them at a suconcious level.

The way I see the Dream version of Krypton in "For the Man who has Everything" was that Superman's subconscious was actually fighting the dream, and twisting it subtly to make Superman realize how wrong everything was..

I'm afraid I must come to the defense of Moore's "For the Man Who Has Everything".

While Moore has a tendency to have a dark streak in his works, I found much of that mind-drama made sense.

It's not that Jor-El should be considered a crackpot.  It's what he would have been considered had Krypton not exploded.  The Science Council had already dismissed him as a nutcase for proclaiming Krypton's doom.  Certainly, that assessment would've been borne out if Krypton had survived.  Jor's credibility had already sunk as low as it could have gone in the real world.  The only thing that restored some of it was the actual explosion instants before everybody died.

The idea that the enlightened Kryptonians might have moral qualms about the Phantom Zone sentences makes sense in hindsight and Moore should be applauded for this idea.

The logical extension that members of the House of El would be tainted by being associated with Jor (the crackpot who tried to start a panic about a fake doomsday and the father of the torture device of the age) also makes sense ... Up to Kara Zor-El being victimized for being an El, and Van having to be safeguarded from other El-haters.

Lyla Lerrol mysteriously being Kal-El's age and marrying him is a bit of a stretch.  It fits with the fantasy-wish-fulfilment angle so I'm letting it go.  Maybe in the real world, Kryptonians didn't have as strict a POV about age gaps?

Again, in a real scenario where Krypton did not die, Jor certainly would have been considered a crackpot, even without the Phantom Zone.  Given the history built up by the Silver Age, Moore's mind-drama made perfect sense, albeit, disturbingly.  And disturbing is a word I've come to associate a lot with Moore's work -- but in a nice way.

Just as a sidenote, I think the JLU Animated series episode based on that comic might've done the near-impossible task of actually improving it..  It does shorten the story a lot more, but that just intensifies the feeling of loss when Kal-El comes to realize this world that he's come to love is, in fact, just a dream from which he must wake up..

...And one neat bit I liked was that the animated version of Lyla came off as a mixture of Lana Lang (red hair) and Lois Lane (the voice, being a reporter), and thus a mixture of Clark's loves into a single ideal woman..

Yep, a good extra bit that shows some thinking and was just enough to tweak the informed viewer but not ruin the ep...

And yes, the idea of waking from a dream where things seem settled is something sad that hits home with all of us..

As an aside, I rather liked how Moore portrayed Robin in "For the Man Who Has Everything".

For those not familiar with the Pre-Crisis Bat Family, this Robin was Jason Todd.  No, not THE Jason Todd who once tried to steal the wheels off the Batmobile, was blown up and apparently killed in "A Death in the Family", and has recently made a comeback as the Red Hood (so they say).  No, the Earth-1 Jason Todd was a nice kid, though he was such a Dick Grayson "clone" (ANOTHER orphaned circus acrobat?) that after Batman #400 DC decided to remake Jay as a street punk with a bad attitude.  See http://www.titanstower.com/source/whoswho/robin2.html#bat1 for details on both Jason Todds.

Even though this was the 1995 Annual, "For the Man Who Has Everything" has to take place on February 29, 1984.  At that point, Jason Todd had barely taken on the Robin mantle (bestowed by Dick Grayson himself, who was NOT "fired" by Bruce in Earth-1 continuity).  So Jason is depicted as clearly out of his depth amid the heroes and Mongul -- and KEENLY aware of it.  He worries about possibly messing up and failing Bruce, but in the end Jason delivers a most satisfying final blow.

The Earth-1 Jason Todd had a short career, and is now forgotten in comic book Limbo.  But he had his shining moment in this story -- how many heroes can rightfully claim that they once knocked out MONGUL with a POTTED PLANT?   :wink:

In responding to "For the Man Who Has Everything" I just realized that Moore was making a much more sweeping message than I originally thought.

He's saying that the destruction of Krypton is what is key and gives meaning to the heroism of all recent members of the House of El.  Without that explosion, Jor goes from heroic martyr to a crank doomsday-sayer.  Kara Zor-El goes from super-hero and champion of others to a mere victim of mindless violence.  Kara's parents are no longer heroic in saving her at the possible risk of their own lives.  Kal-El had no inspiration to become the universally-acclaimed Superman and is even moved to avoid his father's scientific career to avoid the shame of being associated with the crank.  Though not mentioned, Kal's lookalike cousins in Kandor (Van-Zee and Don-El) clearly derive their heroism from Superman himself who derives his motivations from Krypton's End (Van-Zee became Nightwing, Don-El became head of the Superman Emergency Squad -- both are derivate of Kal's career).

No Krypton explosion = No heroism for the current generations of the House of El.

Gangbuster Thorul, I've read Moore's "Twilight" story proposal, too.

While it has the Moore disturbing trademark, I'm glad DC passed on this project.  It's too disturbing, IMHO.  And it does a great disservice to both Superman's character and his power-levels.  Even if it had seen print, I believe DC Editorial would have nixed the idea of Moore's pet creation, Sodom Yat (the Daxamite GL) murdering Superman like that.  Moore might have been forced to allow some kryptonite and/or red sun weaponry into the mix instead of a straight-up killing.

But I still think DC was right to nix this project.  It's too dark for the mainstream DCU and does a disservice not only to Superman but the rest of the super-heroes.

Yeah, that was back during Moore's Superhero Deconstruction period, where he was tearing things down with Watchmen and Miracleman. Mind boggling and daring stuff, but I don't think the Twilight stuff would have really worked. I prefer the Supreme-era renaissance, as well as his stuff on Tom Strong myself. Intensely cool stuff, as is his work as co-plotter on Terra Obscura, where a group of Golden Age science-heroes find themselves returned to their modern Earth, an Earth in an identical solar system across the galaxy from Tom Strong's own, whom he dubbed Terra Obscura. It's mightily awesome. ;)

 -Def.

I haven't read Tom Strong...is that like Superman of Earth-2 stuff?

Kind of.

Tom Strong himself is like Doc Savage who was one of the big influences for the Golden Age Superman.

You should read it, it's just great stuff. It's not pure retro but rather a refined version of what he did with Supreme.

Why not let the first issue speak for itself?

 http://www.dccomics.com/media/excerpts/1110_x.pdf

 Don't say I never gave ya nothin'. ;)

 -Defender.

Here are all the Tom Strong collections that you can buy:

Tom Strong Book 1
Tom Strong Book 2
Tom Strong Book 3
Tom Strong Book 4
Tom Strong Book 5

Tom Strong's Terrific Tales Book 1
Tom Strong's Terrific Tales Book 2

America's Best Comics Book 1
America's Best Comics Book 2

For Tom Strange tales:

Terra Obscura 1
Terra Obscura 2