Superman Through the Ages! Forum

As much as I love Elliot S! Maggin, as well as he understood who Superman was, as streetwise and funny as he could be, as well as he could write...

...if you are paid, for 15 years, to write about a character, no matter how talented you are, the law of averages states that eventually you'll hit a real stinker of an idea. Heck, the only reason that Stan and Jack seemed to bat a thousand with FANTASTIC FOUR was because they quit while they were ahead.

People ask me why it was Cary Bates that was my favorite of the Schwartz Superman writers, despite his flaws (like FORGETTING a Legionnaire's powers one time) - so, here's why. Don't get me wrong, I love Maggin to death, but not everything he did was pure gold.

It's also very amusing to note that every single time Maggin throws out the off curveball theory, nobody except him ever talked or mentioned it again; everyone else just ignores it. It was like Bates, Wein, and Nelson Bridwell all made a blood pact never to mention the Kryp-Tonn story again. The only other time I've ever seen that idea brought up again was in MAGGIN'S OWN SUPERMAN NOVELS, and in a 1980s Nelson Bridwell miniseries as a throwaway line that could be interpreted as either confirming it, or laughing along with the audience at the ludicrousness of the idea. Even Mark Waid, an avowed Maggin disciple that got S! to write the KINGDOM COME novelization, wouldn't touch this theory with a ten-foot pole when he redid Krypton in BIRTHRIGHT.


Superman as the Qwizatz Haderach

According to some Maggin stories, Superman was produced over time by the Guardians of the Universe in order to become a superbeing.

Okay, yeah, it brings the Guardians into the origin of Superman, sure, making the DC Universe "tighter" and more interconnected in a Roy Thomas sort of way. But the thing is, Superman is great, noble, and pure because of his choices, not because he's the Qwizatz Haderach. Plus, the whole "Guardians breeding project to produce the perfect being" is such a direct crib off of Smith's LENSMAN that it is actually offensive.


Krypton Was Settled by Space Explorers: Answering a Question that Nobody Asked

This is the big enchilada right here: the worst idea Maggin ever had.

The idea that Krypton was settled by space explorers.

This makes no sense in light of what we know about Krypton; for one thing, if they're not from Krypton, why would they have powers at all because of the planet? Other beings from Krypton get powers too: dogs, gorillas, and flame dragons, all presumably native. Second, Krypton's history included periods of savagery, which are not consistent with a history that begins with something as high-tech as a space colony. And further, it doesn't account for where Kryptonians came from in the beginning. Was it Daxam, perhaps? Then why no weakness to lead? Instead of "explaining" the origin of Krypton, all it did was muddy it up, all for the purpose of answering a question that no one asked.

This sort of thing has a name: "Peter Davidism." Taking a concept that previously was straightforward (Superman gets his powers from being a Kryptonian, a people from Krypton who get their powers from their planet) and giving it a backstory that makes the previously straightforward idea all unclear and confusing.

And the whole "Kryp!" and "Tonn!" thing, in the Schwartz era of space opera, was absolutely inane. Wasn't this a Jack Handey gag? "Mankind is very mysterious. Why? Let us look at the words 'Mank' and 'ind.' What do these words mean? I do not know. That is why mankind is so mysterious."


The Sword of Superman

For one thing...since freaking when has Superman ever needed or used a sword? Does Wonder Woman carry a katana? Does Batman carry a gun (well...yes, but that's a long story)?

Also: it was a piece of unformed matter from the Big Bang. So, essentially, what Maggin's telling us here is that the universe was created by someone putting a firecracker in a dumpster.

For one thing, it violates a very basic rule of High School physics: all matter that came out of the Big Bang was hydrogen. Heavier elements formed inside of stars. There's no way the Big Bang would produce a chunk of solid metal, not to mention the absurdity of one that was perfectly sword-shaped with an "s" symbol at the handle. Also, the Sword of Superman's powers were virtually limitless - not because it was, but because its powers were so poorly defined.

Also...since when does Superman know so much about swordsmanship, anyway? In a Dennis O'Neil story, Batman was in trouble because he didn't know how to fly a World War I era biplane - many superheroes don't have mastery of archaic skills. There isn't even a swordfighting robot partner in the Fortress of Solitude.


King Kosmos

I've said this before, and I'll keep on saying it: Kosmos was such a transparent Kang clone that one wonders if Maggin was trying to see if he could smootch the right behind to get work at the House of Ideas (which wasn't successful; wasn't the last thing he did in comics, the AD&D comic for DC?)


Any story involving Superman meeting God

I loved LAST SON OF KRYPTON, but this subplot needed to have hit the cutting room floor.

Though I will admit, once God became a Superman supporting character, it took Marv Wolfman to figure out that Brainiac would probably want to find and replace him.

Of Course....even Heinlein had some not so great notions....Glory Road comes to mind.


I have to disagree.  In fact, it makes perfect sense and DOES explain the extreme similarities in physiology.  And Daxam makes perfect sense. (or if not daxam, then both planets were settled by same stock)

The question only becomes WHEN the colonization took place and then what occurred afterward.  I was always under the impression that the colonization took place in the deep past and not under the most friendly of circumstances :)  Science fiction is full of stories with a similar theme.  Advanced culture colonizes world, tragedy strikes, with no technological base to maintain the current standard....regression takes place (most famous example being Anne McCaffery's Pern Series).  the amount of regression depending on the severity of the tragedy.

As to the lead vs Kryptonite....again, depends on when the colonization took place.  Where the Daxamites alergic to lead at the time?  Or was that something that developed later, after the Split?


As to the others....okay....I'll give you those :)

Dylan

Julian, I don't know quite how to break this to you after such an admirable rant - the Kryp and Tonn story (http://superman.nu/tales2/born/?page=1) was not written by ES!M but was in fact written by your favorite Superman writer...  Cary Bates!

I know what you mean about other writers ignoring Maggin's ideas, though.  Superwoman and Miracle Monday would both serve as examples of what you describe, except that they were good ideas.

I like most everything else that Maggin wrote (http://superman.nu/Maggin/bibliography.php) in the 1980s too - especially Sword of Superman and all the God tie-in stuff that he did.  But to me most of his 1970s stories (with a few incredible exceptions) are pretty forgettable.

:s:

(http://images.art.com/images/products/regular/11749000/11749619.jpg)


Anyway, whoever came up with it, it was a dumb idea. But you gotta love that Gray Morrow art!

Also, I agree the "Sword" bit was pretty awful, and generally any tinkering with the origin is wrong-headed, like the bit with the Guardians manipulating the "El" gene pool, the story where Superbaby's rocket is detoured on the way to Earth and he lives a whole lifetime before resuming his journey, and of course the infamous "Jor-El and Lara are still alive but comatose in a floating coffin somewhere" story (written by Frank Robbins, maybe?).

So I guess this desire to go back and monkey with the origin story goes back a long way, huh?  This is one tale that Jerry Seigel told better than anyone who came after him, but that seems to be a lesson no writer will ever learn.

[/quote]

Hmmm...I've never particularly liked the linking of the Guardians with the El family or the Sword of Superman, not because they were terrible stories on their own but that they introduce unnecessary extra mythos...sort of a coincidental "soap opera ization" of the Bronze Age that turned me off...

Weirdly, though I am not a huge Bates fan either, "Kryp and Tonn" could always be treated as a folk myth tale in my mind that could be re-told but ignored at the same time..

Who came up with the idea that Superman can see the "aura" or "soul" of living creatures?  I was never very comfortable with this, and it apparently has led to the current Superman being a vegetarian.

Superman had a code against killing so it would figure it had a code against hot dogs. :roll:

But if he can "see the aura of all living things" how the heck can he eat a salad?  Tomatoes are people too y'know. :wink:

I think the aura thing first came up in "Miracle Monday" and was brought up again in "Birthright"... 8)

My mistake; I was going by memories of a cousin's comics collection here.

I was not aware this story was hosted on this site. And in a Roshomon-esque twist, it's VERY different than I remember it.

It really is unfortunate, however, that the concept of MIRACLE MONDAY was not explored further. Levitz or Tom Peyer could have done something with the idea in either Legion or in the 90s HOURMAN book, but chalk it up to another missed opportunity.

It also really says something that in CRISIS, when everybody and the Golden Age version of their brother shows up (heck, even Raven, who had disappeared as a result of events in TITANS, was MENTIONED and shown on a monitor screen) that Superwoman did not even so much as appear in the background. Superwoman, Ultraa the Multi-Alien, and Space Cabbie - all were left out of CRISIS; coincidence, or conspiracy? HMMMM....



All this is precisely why I think it was a lousy idea, no matter who came up with it (and the idea that it's my boyfriend Cary Bates that wrote this, well, it just smarts[/i).

Bates didn't think it through. It didn't answer any questions, it just brought up more, and it clouded the waters of the Superman story.

If Bates had told a story where the inhabitants of Krypton, Daxam, Thoron, the Andromedan Race of Karb-Brak, New Genesis, etc. were all seeded from a single space race (possibly a task performed by the Guardians) now THIS would be an interesting idea and account for why these beings have similar powers and appearance - provided certain questions were answered, like for instance, why Daxamites have different weaknesses, and so forth. It would be a great idea, because it gives a connection between these diverse civilizations, and involve the Guardians in the Superman Mythos.

But Cary Bates didn't tell this story. It tore down previous assumptions about life on Krypton, but the thing is, it didn't replace it with anything.

I think it just shows that none of the other writers at DC ever read anything that Elliot ever wrote.  Same thing with his bestselling novels - when they came out, he never even heard a peep from anyone at DC about them (ref (http://superman.nu/Maggin/interview.php#books)).


More backstory material for epic tales that should have been told, but never had the chance to because of Crisis.


Didn't replace it with anything?

What's all this (http://superman.nu/tales2/worldofkrypton.php)?  Chopped liver?  And there were a lot more Krypton Tales where those came from!

I also don't see what previous assumptions it tore down.  

:s:

In fact I belive that Alan Moore was the only person ever to use Superwoman other than Maggin. (She had a cameo in What ever Happen...)

Well, I guess the previous assumption was that Krypton had a unique history, flora, fauna etc...

I wonder if its a question of those who think more in terms of panspermia or a separate origin of similar properties in the universe given similar circumstances...to carry that out to comics may be too much, but its interesting...personally I liked that Kryptonians and Daxamites had a similar but seperate origin...

I wonder how evolution produced those thought beasts with those yv monitors on their heads which showed what they were thinking about -- which was eatting you!

Shame they never thought about rabbit ears. ;)

And there's an inherent continuity contradiction in Superwoman's appearance in "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" -- Kristin Wells was supposed to be a descendant of Jimmy Olsen, who DIED in this story.  Since it was never mentioned that Jimmy ever had offspring, how could Kristin even exist?  

Superwoman Kristin Wells also appears as a "Hypertime Ghost" in "The Kingdom: Planet Krypton" -- in fact, she and Batwoman Kathy Kane are very prominently depicted...

Hmm...

"Superwoman / Batwoman, Hypertime's Finest"?  :shock:

That would be an intriguing matchup, though since both characters had been portrayed as somewhat ditzy in the past I can also see many Superman and Batman fans (ESPECIALLY the latter) visibly cringing at the very thought.   :wink:

As good as some of those are (especially WORLD OF KRYPTON) none of them make use or expand on the Bates "space explorers settled Krypton" story. In fact, looking them over, only WORLD OF KRYPTON does, but as a throwaway line that can either considered to be 1) referencing Bates's story, or 2) laughing at the idea, but in either case not providing definite confirmation.



It tore down the default assumption that Kryptonians (I do so love the 30s-40s term "Kryptonites," to refer to Kryptonians) evolved on their own planet, and this is very significant because it is believed to be developing in Krypton's environment that gives Superman his powers. If Kryptonians are not originally from Krypton, it becomes much less clear just WHY it is that Kryptonians have powers.

It tears down the idea that Kryptonians generally did not have space travel, because it was present at the beginning of Krypton history (which is a pretty big problem; the reason the destruction of Krypton was as awful as it was is because Kryptonians weren't generally scattered over the universe).

The story of Kryp and Tonn was previously discussed here (http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1570).

Elliot didn't invent Kryp and Tonn, but he did mention "two stranded space wanderers" as he recounted the history of Krypton in the first few paragraphs of Last Son of Krypton (http://superman.nu/thebook/lsok/?chapter=1&language=).

Those paragraphs also explain how the humans became "tuned-up humans" over the next 10,000 years (approximately 15,000 Earth years). The "tune-up" was what put the "super" into Superman.

I'm not a biologist, so I don't know whether natural selection could produce such physiological changes in that period. I think Elliot may have understated the period. After all, the Kryptonian calendar was in the year 9998 when Kal-El was born. Was the basis of the calendar ever established? Was it from Erok-El's reign as the first Bethgar of Urrika? The Krypton Chronicles seemed to establish that as the start of Kryptonian history. That still leaves a a huge chunk of pre-history.

The story of "Kryp" and "Tonn" may be a legend, used to explain this pre-history. The early version of the legend may have been similar to the Greek myths about the creation of humans. Over the centuries, the legend was embellished. The "Kryp" and "Tonn" version includes a addition from Krypton's "space age", since it refers to space-travel and astronauts. It is also possible that the story was not a legend at all, but was an original story by Du-Vor.

You don't have to be a Biologist to figure out that it's too short of a time for any real change to happen. Not to mention that any human would be crushed to mush upon landing on Krypton.

I'll yield to your superior knowledge of your homeworld.  :lol: Still, I'd like to see some empirical evidence to justify your conclusions.

LOL...waits for homeworld evidence...

Actually there's not much evidence for a species gaining incredible properties without any change in its physical appearance over millions of years of natural selection or hundreds of years of artificial selection...well, unless you count hard, tasteless tomatoes as an "incredible property"... 8)

Answer: it was an imaginary story (but them, aren't they all?)

 :D

That's definetly the simplest explanation I can think of: It's a made-up story..

I never thought Superboy Prime was that great, except for trivia purposes. Then again, I never thought any character created for Crisis on Infinite Earths was that great. I think a Krypto Prime would have been more interesting, because really...who could have stopped Krypto from doing whatever he wanted? He would have been totally unrestrained...

but I don't blame Maggin for how Superboy Prime turned out.

Are you saying that Earth Prime was created "for" Crisis?  Is this an established fact?  Wondering...

I belive he said that Superboy Prime was created for it, NOT Earth-Prime which was around during the 70's

OK, what about Superboy Prime? :D

Superboy did pop up for Crisis (first in DC Comics Presents).  I never really liked the idea of Earth Prime having a superhero --the whole uniqueness of Earth Prime meant no superheroes.    If Superboy was created for Crisis just to be sent into the Paradise Dimension, the whole idea was a waste.  I'm sure he was just created as an homage and to write a unique "what if" story  --as opposed to the Pocket Universe Superboy Byrne et al being invented to explain away the pre-Crisis Legion (a need that seems to be negated by the Crisis itself).

That's more along the lines of what I was thinking...I liked Earth Prime as Earth and not to be messed with, if it had to be created at all...but as with most things, writers will tend to fiddle...since Superboy Prime had self contained stories, I just never thought he was created "for" the Crisis is all...

JLA No. 153 had another Earth-Prime hero named Ultraa.

Yeah, a 1978 example of "monkeying" with Earth Prime... 8)

Was he a multi-alien?

No, it's actually crazier than that, believe it or not.

Ultraa was a red-haired Superman-like alien that crashed landed on Earth in Australia, and he was raised by Australian Aborigines (!). During a battle with the Justice League, he migrated to Earth-1, where he hid his powers and got work as a janitor. Later, he moved back to Australia. He was a League opponent, but he was not truly evil, just naive and easily tricked.

Did he move back to Earth-One's Australia or Earth-Prime's?

Two points:

1) I think one of the Kryp/Tonn's more nagging problems for me is that it seems cribbed from two TWILIGHT ZONE episodes.  (Two TWILIGHT ZONE episodes because the TWILIGHT ZONE actually cribbed from itself!)  

In both episodes, male and female adversaries, isolated from humanity, struggle with one another until they unite at the end of the story to become a new Adam and Eve.   In one of the episodes, the man and woman are even space explorers trapped on an alien planet.

2) My problem with "The Day the Cheering Stopped" has less to do with the physics of a primordial sword with a Superman symbol created at the dawn of time (that could all be explained by comic book metaphysics), but more to do with Superman's solution to the central dilemma of the story (i.e., the cheering stopping).

If you remember, King Kosmos manipulates things so that everybody sees Superman as a hostile alien.  While trying to deal with KK, this puts a serious crimp into Superman's mojo.  

So how does he deal with this newfound obstacle?

Does he summon the moral courage to stand up to KK despite public outcry, endure the transitory jeers in the knowledge that his cause is just, teaching us all a lesson about maintaining strength of character in the face of adversity, and showing the value of doing what's right no matter how unpopular?

NO!

He hypnotizes himself to hear the jeering as cheering.

Cop.  Out.

Basically, Superman can't just face down the problem, he has to alter his consciousness to deal with it.  I'd like to think that Superman is made of sterner stuff, and Maggin's resolution here as not only more cheesey than a deluxe 4 cheese pizza, but a missed opportunity to say something important and inspirational.

I think the idea is a pretty old sci-fi idea, no?  I remember an old EC (mid-50s) story with the same twist ending.