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Author Topic: DC's attitude adjustment and long live the Classic Superman!  (Read 32537 times)
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Super Monkey
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« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2005, 11:02:57 PM »

Quote from: "jmr72777"


The rest, is minutae.  It's not important whether or not he embrace his Kryptonian heritage.  That's not who he is.  How long did it take for the ORIGINAL SUPERMAN to come to that point?  How many years?  Not the 30's.  Not the 40's.  Maybe there was a genesis in the 50's.  Maybe it came into it's own in the 60's.  And maybe it really became an important part of his character in the 70's.  So really, how important is it to his character?  If it was that important, SUPERMAN would not have been the iconic character he was for all those years before.

I'm sure that someone here may find evidence to dispute me.  Of course SUPERMAN thought about and talked about Krypton before the 60's.  I wouldn't dispute that.  I would just say that it became an overriding part of him in the 60's-70's, almost 30 years after he was created.  Before then, it was a small part of him.
 



It happen in the 1940's that he found out he was an alien, during the Golden Age, the story was reprinted in DC's The Greatest Golden Age Stories Ever Told. It was a HUGE part of him all through the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's and the 1st half of the 1980's.


Quote
I think my problem comes with the negative connotation that this site (which I enjoy very much, regardless) places upon SUPERMAN: The Murderer. I've spent countless posts here (I think most of the ones in my message count, in fact) in some way or another defending his actions. This is not because I agree with murder. I don't. However, circumstances dictate actions and consequences. I could re-open the argument all over again, but for now I won't. What I will say is that if you (the royal "you," not necessarily you in particular) think the Iron Age SUPERMAN is any less heroic than the Silver Age, fine (although I wouldn't necessarily agree if you said the same about the Golden Age.)



Let me tell you straight up, no matter what some people may think this is a PRE-CRISIS site, please note that all the post crisis stories that were posted here or are talked about here have something to do with the pre-crisis Superman. Therefore to complain about this fact is like going to a Yankee message board and complain about the lack on Mets fans, I mean they are both New York City Pro Baseball teams, but everyone know they do not share the same fans and they are not the same thing.
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« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2005, 12:34:03 AM »

Quote from: "jmr72777"
I think my problem comes with the negative connotation that this site (which I enjoy very much, regardless) places upon SUPERMAN: The Murderer.  I've spent countless posts here (I think most of the ones in my message count, in fact) in some way or another defending his actions.  This is not because I agree with murder.  I don't.  However, circumstances dictate actions and consequences.  I could re-open the argument all over again, but for now I won't.  What I will say is that if you (the royal "you," not necessarily you in particular) think the Iron Age SUPERMAN is any less heroic than the Silver Age, fine (although I wouldn't necessarily agree if you said the same about the Golden Age.)


Beyond the issues of the character's relative heroism or morality, or physical powers/strength, there is the problem of these circumstances that "dictate actions and consequences":  the post-Crisis writers and editors inserted the character into generally horrible, self-indulgent, aesthetically ugly stories --with little of the craft or care (or long-term marketing savvy) that marked most of the previous 45 or so years' stories.  I'm sure there are some bright spots but the essential dilution and poverty of the Post-Crisis incarnation of Superman can't be ignored.

With this as a given, the story about a Superman-like character killing another character is perfectly fine. Cheesy

And I would agree that the rest in minutae  but it is minutae introduced to make the stories interesting and to give the characters aspects of a well-rounded personality.  I feel we can't ignore the minutae for these reasons, precisely because the characters are much more than their essential natures.  Besides, what would I do with all my time if I wasn't thinking about Superman minutae?
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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2005, 04:05:10 AM »

Super Monkey,

I know this site is a Silver-Age fan site.  I see your analogy regarding Mets/Yankees.  My problem is what I perceived from some as being a lack of tolerence.  I mean no disrespect to you, or to anyone else I have had the pleasure of debating with.  I enjoy these debates, which is part of the reason I bring this stuff up.  Again, the other part is the small amount of intolerance that I've come up against.  One would naturally assume that a SUPERMAN fan would be FULL of tolerance and respect for the beliefs of others.  Some I have encountered seem to really look at the POST-CRISIS SUPERMAN as being tantamount to the Anti-Christ.  In the vein, I simply maintain that he's not THAT bad.

I do believe that there is merit to be found in the IRON AGE version.  I'm not a HUGE fan of the SILVER AGE or BRONZE AGE versions, but I will respect their contributions to the mythos and to the legend.

Quote
It happen in the 1940's that he found out he was an alien, during the Golden Age, the story was reprinted in DC's The Greatest Golden Age Stories Ever Told. It was a HUGE part of him all through the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's and the 1st half of the 1980's.


I know he found out in the 40's.  That's not in dispute.  I'm looking at how much a part it played in who he is.  Unless I'm mistaken, GREAT RAO (pardon me, oh great one, leader of the site) didn't become his official exclamation for some time afterwards.  Up until that point, I believe it was GREAT SCOTT!  (And, before you say anything, I know that GREAT MOONS OF KRYPTON was also one, among others.)

I think if you really wanted to be fair, you could say that he truly thought of himself as KAL-EL of Krypton starting *maybe* in the mid to late 60's.  Before then, I think he thought of himself as SUPERMAN, and KAL-EL and his heritage were saved for more convenient plot purposes.


And, Telle?

I love the minutae as much as the next guy.  I'd like to think that neither of us let the minutae get in the way of our enjoying this truly great character.   Cheesy
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2005, 02:00:20 PM »

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I know this site is a Silver-Age fan site.  I see your analogy regarding Mets/Yankees.  My problem is what I perceived from some as being a lack of tolerence.  I mean no disrespect to you, or to anyone else I have had the pleasure of debating with.  I enjoy these debates, which is part of the reason I bring this stuff up.  Again, the other part is the small amount of intolerance that I've come up against.  


There is a big difference between people disagreeing with you and intolerance, of course, most people here will disagree with you since this is a pre-reboot site, but there is no intolerance here. No one will never ever be banned for liking the reboot Superman.


Quote
I think if you really wanted to be fair, you could say that he truly thought of himself as KAL-EL of Krypton starting *maybe* in the mid to late 60's.  Before then, I think he thought of himself as SUPERMAN, and KAL-EL and his heritage were saved for more convenient plot purposes.



This is simply NOT true, there is just no way this could be true. I have the FACTS to back it up:

FACT : SUPERMAN Returns to Krypton! 1949
FACT : Three Supermen from Krypton 1950
FACT : Superman's Big Brother 1953
FACT : Krypto the Superdog  1955
FACT : Superman Land  1955
FACT : Supermonkey! 1957
FACT : Kandor  1958
FACT : Supergirl  1959

That's only a small taste of the endless stories from the 50's that deal directly with Superman's Kryptonian origins!
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« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2005, 02:13:17 PM »

jmr 72777 writes:

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The rest, is minutae. It's not important whether or not he embrace his Kryptonian heritage. That's not who he is. How long did it take for the ORIGINAL SUPERMAN to come to that point? How many years? Not the 30's. Not the 40's. Maybe there was a genesis in the 50's. Maybe it came into it's own in the 60's. And maybe it really became an important part of his character in the 70's. So really, how important is it to his character? If it was that important, SUPERMAN would not have been the iconic character he was for all those years before.


You're right to a certain extent.  Ask people all over the world who Superman is and they will list off the "iconic" references, not the minutae we as comic collectors tend to focus on.  They will reference the Daily Planet, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen, Clark Kent, and the other handful of set pieces and characters who survive all the various interpretations on radio, in films and on TV (which, let's not kid ourselves, is how most people know Superman, not through the comics).  They will also know he was rocketed from Krypton, though they probably don't know his parents names and they certainly don't care what the architecture looked like or how the government was structured.

But for those of us who want more, who want to go deeper, there are the comics.  And I would argue that until the 80s, the building of the mythos was an additive process.  Layer upon layer was added to the central mythos, making it richer and more nuanced.  Some additions didn't work and were discarded, others did work and were maintained, then added to.   But on the whole, nothing new destroyed anything before it.  The 40s Superman was still from Krypton, he just didn't know it yet.

Then comes 1986 and it's all out the window.  Sure you can argue that the iconic stuff is still there, so why complain?  "You've got Clark and Lois and Jimmy and the Planet, you've got the costume and the powers.  What are you complaining about?"  And maybe all that's enough for some people.  But those of us who invested a lot of time and emotion in the old mythos needed convincing.  We needed to be shown why it all had to go away.  Specifically we need to know that it was sacrificed in favor of something better, or at least equally good.  Many of us feel we never got that.  

Is it possible to create a Superman who's not interested in Krypton and make him interesting?  Probably.  But it hasn't happened yet!  If I felt for a moment that the post-Crisis Superman was equal in quality to the pre-Crisis model I'd shrug my shoulders and say, "Eh...apples and oranges."  But as it is, I'm left thinking, "They got rid of Superman for THIS?"

In fairness, you are dead right: remaking Krypton, or putting "Clark" before "Kal" are not things that "ruin" Superman in and of themselves.  The problem is Superman stories have been rotten, on the whole, for a long time now, and when we are left to do our post-mortem and ask "why?" we start analyzing where things might have gone wrong.  What we (some of us anyway) have decided is that some wrong decisions may have torpedoed the reboot from Day One.

Understand I was hopeful, even excited about the reboot at the time.  I was not running around yelling "they're ruining Krypton!" or whatever.  It's only now, years later, that I look back and begin to understand why things worked one way but not so well the other.  In fact, in 1986 I may have made some of the same mistakes myself.  But I like to think that I would have admitted my mistakes earlier on and reversed some of them.

Quote
I'm sure that someone here may find evidence to dispute me. Of course SUPERMAN thought about and talked about Krypton before the 60's. I wouldn't dispute that. I would just say that it became an overriding part of him in the 60's-70's, almost 30 years after he was created. Before then, it was a small part of him.


It's not so much that Krypton's ignored, but that it's been remade.  Before, it was a scientific utopia, a dream of what Earth might be in a thousand years.  And Superman, the "Man of Tomorrow," was here to guide us toward that bright future.  Now, Krypton is a dystopian nightmare world, a place that's remembered only long enough to deliver a cautionary tale.  Krypton is the hell we might turn Earth into if we forget our humanity. The new Superman's message, if he has one at all, is "don't go there!"  

You can argue that's minutae, and maybe it is, but as the saying goes, little things mean a lot.  This subtle shift in the mythos has had lasting and sweeping effects, and for my money it cast a dark cloud over Superman's new adventures from the very beginning.  It took something bright and hopeful out of the story and left something dark and dreary in its place.  We was robbed!
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« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2005, 02:28:41 PM »

Super Monkey,

Perhaps INTOLERENCE, like MURDERER is too strong a word.  I don't mean to say that people have been mean or cruel in any way.  I wouldn't frequent the site if I felt that way.  Certainly everyone here has been nice.  And I don't expect everyone to agree with me, just as I don't agree with others.  I have great respect and fondness for this site, and would think it unfortunate if anyone felt I was here as some sort of malcontent.

In the spirit of debate, I merely state my opinions that the "Byrne'd" continuity isn't as poisonous as some would believe.  Again, let me restate my congratulations to everyone here who feels that a triumph has been made in the reemergence of Silver Age ideas.

As to the other bit:

Quote
FACT : SUPERMAN Returns to Krypton! 1949
FACT : Three Supermen from Krypton 1950
FACT : Superman's Big Brother 1953
FACT : Krypto the Superdog 1955
FACT : Superman Land 1955
FACT : Supermonkey! 1957
FACT : Kandor 1958
FACT : Supergirl 1959


I would enjoy hearing more.  I think I'm still being misinterpreted, because I have not said that his Kryptonian origins weren't addressed.  Heck, in SUPERMAN #1, they restate his origins.  That's 1939-40, if I'm not mistaken.  I can only make statments regarding what I've seen on this site.  I think you can agree (I may be wrong) that the (for example) Elliot S! Maggin Superman/Kal-El paradigm, their relationship to the whole, and the "Kal-El" persona's prominence is VERY different from how it appears in "Three Supermen From Krypton," "Superman's Big Brother", and "Supergirl."  Back then, Kal-El was what you called Superman if you were Kryptonian.  I don't think it was ever made clear that that was how he thought of himself, as "Kal-El."  It wasn't until much later that he took on a much strong sense of alien self.

Again, though, I can only say that based on the stories that I have read.  At 27 years of age, I spent the first 8-9 years of my life buying new SUPERMAN comics and reading the ones that my Dad collected as a child.  I also had the benefit of a few collected editions of SUPERMAN stories throughout the years leading up to that.  I remember reading SUPERMAN's first meeting with Mxyzptlk.  SUPERMAN's first encounter with Lex Luthor.  The ORIGINAL SUPERGIRL (from the magic totem) as well as Kara's origin.  "Superman No More," an especially poignant story which I enjoyed.  Stories from "Superman's Lawyer," back to Action #1, all the way through to Alan Moore's "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow."  And then, I continued buying new comics when John Byrne restarted in 85-86.

My memories are admitedly clearer of the Post-Crisis continuity, but I do have a fair share of Pre-Crisis experience.  That is why I would like to hear more.  In the grander sense of the comics that I read, that was my take.  The true paradigm shift in SUPERMAN's psyche happened much later.  He explored his Kryptonian heritage in these early stories, true.  But he really embraced it much later.
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« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2005, 03:06:55 PM »

I would argue the original Byrne stories were actually pretty good and mostly upbeat until we hit the Legion fix stories. The problem is Byrne didn't realize what a mess later writers would make of his changes or the reprocusions of them.. The point about Krypton is well taken. From stolen Utopia to place that destroyed itself in a later revision. I would certainly agree the additive process was infinitely richer and more satisfing in the long run. That said, I still really enjoy most of Byrne's Superman run but really hate what the present books have gone to. Telle called it prefectly in his characterization of the modern tales.
    I'm personally more annoyed at the drek that has accumulated post crisis than all the stuff beforehand.   I might roll my eyes at some of the sillier older stuff but it never left me as annoyed as many of the modern comics. I yell all the time "Superman would never do that!"as my wife patiently agrees. I REALLY want to support the comics industry but they need to give me a product that doen't make me crazy,
    Frankly most of my superhero fix now comes from reading old comics( really cool with your kids), watching JLU and playing freedom force(great games allows custom heroes olay often as Supes.). If the comics industry would give me something not gritty and gross but interesting I would patronize it a whole lot more.
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« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2005, 03:15:36 PM »

Quote from: "jmr72777"


My memories are admitedly clearer of the Post-Crisis continuity, but I do have a fair share of Pre-Crisis experience.  That is why I would like to hear more.  In the grander sense of the comics that I read, that was my take.  The true paradigm shift in SUPERMAN's psyche happened much later.  He explored his Kryptonian heritage in these early stories, true.  But he really embraced it much later.


Simply not true.

Please read this story from Action Comics #210 (1955), by Bill Finger, Wayne Boring, and Stan Kaye "Superman in Superman Land"
http://superman.nu/tales2/supermanland

That's proof potive that he had Embraced his Kryptonian heritage FULLY!
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