Superman Through the Ages! Forum

After all the talk, all the excitement, the criticism, the worries, the hoopla, and the waiting, I'm completely amazed that no one has yet raised the subject of All-Star Superman #1.

I picked up my copy this afternoon.  Absolutely brilliant.  Completely exciting.  Spot-on characterization. The best Superman I've read in a long time; and the best cliff-hanger I've ever seen in a comic book.  And when I say "ever", I mean "ever."

:s:

I'm not feeling Quietlys art, but I will say I like his layouts and Grant has turned in something that feels like a genuine Superman story. Complete with comicbook science which has been sorely missed.

My misgivings about the art aside, a darn fine read and it helps wash off the stink of All Star Batman and Robin leaving a fresh clean scent.

Thats on sale? Must BUY MINE TOMORROW

That must be why you're called "The Man of Tomorrow." :wink:

:s:

OK, All-Star Superman…

Let me just say I originally had no intention whatsoever of buying this. None. Nada. Zilch. The Wzard preview was sluggish and felt drawn out. Frank Quitely’s sketches of Clark Kent as a bespectacled Gerard Depardieu were pretty off-putting, which didn’t encourage me as someone who doesn’t really care for his art to begin with. The much-touted S-shield redesign Morrison was pimping looked better in theory than in practice. And after the epic atrocity of the Batman & Robin book, my faith in the All-Stars line…well, I had none. Still don’t. But then DC restored the classic S-shield. Neal Adams signed on to do variant covers. And with all the hubbub over whether or not the E-2 Superman is the villain of Infinite Crisis, I caved in, deciding I might as well give All-Star Superman a try, since it seems to be the only place where a genuinely heroic Superman can be found these days outside of reprints and back issues.

The verdict: The story itself is a lot better than the Wizard preview indicated. Huge sections of story revealing that Lex Luthor faked reformation to set up yet another profit-in-the-face-of-man-made-apocalypse scheme had been left out of the Wizard preview, and their presence in the completed issue got rid of most of the pacing issues I had said preview. Instead of being drawn out, and thin, the story moved nicely and had a good amount of substance to it. And it was refreshing to have the characters behaving in character for once. Lois Lane, assertive and forthright without being a rampaging harpy. Lex Luthor, a genuinely scary and psychotic lunatic who actually poses a legitimate threat. Clark Kent, mild-mannered nerd who isn’t just Superman in different clothes. And a Superman who takes action without whining, accepts tragedy without moping or doubting himself every ten seconds, and actually acts like a man. Faced with the possibility that he could be dying, the regular DCU Superman would be a whinging, crying, spineless wreck. This Superman takes the news, accepts it, and deals with it accordingly. This feels right. It is right. I think I owe Morrison an apology for second-guessing him after Miller’s latest act of bat-butchery. Instead of taking the opportunity to gut Superman like so many other writers would have, he took the harder and less popular road to rebuilding him to his old self, just as Matt Wagner and Mark Waid did before him (he's also taking the same level of abuse from the Iron Age fans that Wagner and Waid did). I also appreciate the depiction of Krypton as a noble planet of caring people. The cold, inhuman “Krypton that deserved to explode” of Byrne’s day never really worked, and I’m glad to see DC slowly returning to the original idea that Krypton was a nice place. (And yes, I noticed Steve Lombard was back and still macking on Lois. Nice of Morrison to slide that in there.)

Art-wise…I still have a lot of the same problems with Frank Quitely. The buildings and gadgets look fine, but his people suck. His women still have legs that are WAY too long for their already reedy bodies, and their faces still look inappropriately aged. And while I have no problems with Superman being depicted a little older, Quitely makes him look like a long-faced grandpa with a beer belly. (The super-short cape on Superman doesn’t look good, either, especially with the body type Quitely gives him. A much longer cape would look a lot better.) Stylization is all well and good, but Quitely’s people have a tendency to all look really ugly. But I will grant him this much: at least he got rid of the Gerard Depardieu look for Clark. Instead of being a a tub of lard with six chins as he was in the original sketches, Clark’s just a tall, big guy with messy hair and baggy clothes. That much I’m glad to see. All the same, I feel the same way about Quitely on this book that I did about Leinil Francis Yu on Birthright; the hyperstylized art works against the story, and in some cases is off-putting. With Birthright and All-Star Superman, the writing edges toward the old-school approach, and as such a more traditional art style would suit the story better.

Still…I don’t have it in me to begrudge this book. The writing is definitely on the right track in spite of the artwork (not the first time this has happened on Superman), and there’s been a serious dearth of good Superman material outside of The Superman-Madman Hullabaloo, Trinity, Birthright, and New Frontier, so I owe this book a fair chance. Any time a writer sticks his neck out and tries to do right by this character, he deserves my support.

Let it be said that when this title was first announced, it became a sort of anticipated "Knight in Shining Armor", the title that was finally going to restore the Superman character to some semblance of high adventure and unambiguous, charismatic heroism. Sight unseen, just knowing Grant Morrison was to be at the helm of this new title made tolerating the disappointments of the regular Superman titles a bit more bearable...knowing relief was "on the horizon".

However, since that time, DC's Infinite Crisis hype-machine seems to have stolen alot of the All-Star line's thunder, to the point where All-Star Superman's debut seems to have quietly snuck in through the back door amongst all of the flash and thunder of "Crisis".

That said, it was still a great feeling to finally get to read Morrison's All-Star Superman. I've always believed the scale of Superman stories should be bigger than any comic book character's. Of course, the last several years' worth of Superman stories have been small-scale, almost claustrophobic ant farms of Oprah-fied navel-gazing....so Morrison flinging open the shutters to big ideas was a real Mormon Tabernacle Choir "Halleluja" moment. From Superman's rescue in the heart of the sun to the bioengineered "Photosynthetic Giants", a sense of epic adventure and sci-fi spectacle was undeniably back.

Though I'm typically not a fan of Frank Quitely's art, I thought he delivered pretty well. Yeah, the faces of his people still put me off, but I have to say his unique version of Clark Kent was inspired. After nearly twenty years of a cool, sophisticated Clark in the comics, it was fun to see a return to a much more humble and harried interpretation.

And...what's this? A Luthor who's a dangerous genius relying on his own wits and not a company of lackies? A Luthor who straight-up wants to kill Superman, and doesn't care who knows? Ahhh.....that's Lex Luthor, folks. Welcome back, Lex.

Were there examples of "Morrison Excess"? Oh, I suppose there were....here and there. But, on the whole, I found the debut issue of All-Star Superman a wonderful and welcome return to form for a character that had grown remote and unfamiliar to me over the past decade or so. I look forward to more wonder from a team that instinctually and entusiastically seems to "get it" when it comes to my favorite character.

 Grade: A


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/mengblom/secret_id/secretid_banner.gif)

http://www.secret-id.us

Why the hell is it so hard for them to match up a good writer with a good artist? I mean what the heck are the editors doing all day besides throwing darts at their handy-dandy character deathlist?

I know that both Yu and Quietly were hand picked by the writers themselves but those guys can't be the only aritsts out there those writers want to work with.

Brother, that's the billion dollar question!

I actualy like Quitely's artwork on All-Star Superman a lot.  But even if I didn't - even if I hated it - I'd still think that it's light-years better than any of the artwork on the other Superman titles!

:s:

He was hand picked by Grant Morrison as the perfect artist for this series. Art is very objective, what is bad art to you is great art to someone else, and guess what? You would both be right.

I would've gone with Matt Wagner, myself..  The man has drawn the best Superman I've seen in recent years...

Bought it. Liked it for the most part but read it in like all of 10 minutes.
I think I liked the cover the best.  Not reading "NEW" Superman titles so have no idea whats going on than other what I read HERE and there...

but other than the fact that it cvoulda been a 12 page or 8 pager in the old days.. it did have an epic feel to it and it's certainly not the first time Superman's had an impending death to deal with.

Jury still out with me but will buy Number 2. And reread this.

Had a littlle trouble following some of the new characters and missed Steve Lombard and how did that rocket get on Lois' desk that looked suspiciously like Baby Kal's old skool design? :wink:

I actually was referring to Kuuga's general question about the bad taste evident in DC editorial.  Most of the art for DC's books that I've seen over the last 20 years is horrible, with few exceptions.  Quitely ranges from tolerable to workmanlike to inspired to downright beautiful, from what I've seen.  Haven't read All-Star yet so I'm reserving judgement.  And I never could stand Matt Wagner.

I think Wagner could've been a good choice. Before Trinity I never would've believed the guy who did Grendel could do Superman but I'll be damned, he get's it.

Honestly, I think McGuiness could've really shined on this one to.

King Krypton brings up a good point about a classical styled artist. Maybe they should've snagged Garcia Lopez for *this* instead of letting Klaus Janson scratch-up is work for JLA.

I'll also put in a vote for Alan Davis.

You should re-read it again, and this time pay close attention to the artwork, there are tons of little details and plot points happening all over the place, judging by other threads at other boards lots of people missed a whole lot of stuff, since they just read the words and glance at the art.



Honestly I think he is a bad artist, period. The only reason fanboys like him is because when there were in Jr High they too drew everyone with super big muscles, but most people get over that phase and move on to create better art, while he never did. He should just jump to Marvel and draw the hulk and get it over with. Nothing wrong with super big muscles if it fits character (see:hulk) but why draw everyone with the same steroid man look? Why draw everyone's face the same so that you can't tell who the heck is who without going by their costumes?

To me he is part of the new age drug addict artists, he draws everyone like they abuse steroids and Michael Turner draws every female like they are crack-sell-outs. They are both terrible and represent the very worst of mainstream comic book art.

His artwork looks too amateurish to me. The guy doesn't have any drawing chops whatsoever. I like brutish, folksy art, but only when it knows what it it and embraces itself and doesn't try to pass itself for anything other than what it is. Matt Wagner's stuff always looks crude and like fan art to me, which is also why many people like him, I suppose, but I don't like artwork that most people can re-create with a little effort and little art skills, unless it is something really inspired.

Here are some of his covers with Superman, remember folks these are COVERS so you know he tried to do his best:

http://www.sequart.com/superman/adventures628.jpg

http://www.dynamicforces.com/images/bmsmwwtrinitycvr.jpg

http://www.dccomics.com/media/covers/3640_180x270.jpg

Beppo, will do.

Cant stand McGuiness' art AT ALL - steroid freaks and inflatable baby dolls. YECCCCCCCCCCCCH to quote Alfred E.

All-Star Superman # 1.

What's not to love?

Here we are treated to a world of Superman set in both reality and super-science. This is a world where the impossible happens, where we have a hero who is larger than life and resolute and a villain who is so intelligent, so evil, so single-mindedly driven that one must wonder if anyone can stop him?
Morrison & Quitely look like they have meshed 40's Fleisher cartoons, Flash Gordon serials, 60's psychedelia and modern science & myth into a bold and gripping adventure story, hellbent on grabbing us by the ears and shouting, "Look, Up In The Sky! He's Back! Superman is back!
What I love about reading Morrison's work is his unbridled imagination, his 'mad ideas' creeping onto every page. From a philanthropist and his helionauts on a quest to 'map the sun', a genetically modified suicide bomb in human form, the DNA P.R.O.J.E.C.T. with its photosynthetic giants, Bizarro worker drones,anaerobic meganthropes and nanonauts, to Jimmy Olsen coming to work at the Daily Planet courtesy of a jet-pack & helmet. Frankly, this is some very cool and amazing stuff going on here and we get to watch it all unfold!
And I think Quitely's art fit's just right with the tone of this book. His Superman is of the Wayne Boring variety (not fat, just pure muscle), very clean and simple. His Lois reminds me of the version from the 40's cartoon and how about that Bio-Bomb creature? That thing would give you nightmares, if you saw it creeping in a dark alley or on your suncraft! Sweet Jeebus!
Anyway, this is a great start to a hopefully stellar series. My only complaints?

1. It was too short!!! I gotta wait a month for # 2 and HOW LONG for # 3?!?
2. The advertisements seemed too omnipresent, which kinda ruined my reading flow.

Otherwise...what's not to love?

I knew that this story would be completely worth the wait. Morrison exceeded my expectations and gave us a Superman that almost anyone can enjoy. He didn't dwell on origins or the past, rather he moves forward and gives us both new ideas and homages to every era of Superman. Whoever follows Morrison will have some big shoes to fill.

I second whoever said to read the story again and see what you missed the first time. I actually overlooked Superman saving the boy from being runover.

Generally, I can tell if a Superman story is truly epic if, in my mind, I say to myself, "Wow. Superman couldn't possibly be that powerful...could he?" The story gets extra points if the writer can make me believe Superman could be that powerful (which this story did). In this story there were two times I thought that: Superman flying across the Sun's surface and Superman resisting that almost immeasurable weight.

As for Quitely, I enjoyed his artwork. It's different but in a good way. I'm usually a fan of the ultra-realistic art of people like Perez and Swan, but sometimes I like something I'm not accustomed to.

I was barely aware of this, and probably wouldn't have picked it up if not for this thread -- so thanks, chaps! I loved this. I was a bit afraid that Morrison would start doing one of his postmodern Pirandello numbers on Superman, but fortunately he played it pretty straight, and wrote some very snazzy dialogue to match an intriguing story. (I particularly liked Lois' "He's not my idiot" line.) Morrison actually wrote a nice Superman cameo way back in one of the early issues of Animal Man: "I always liked your costume. The big A." He obviously has a lot of affection for the character.

As for the artwork, I've not really been following comics that closely lately and had never heard of this Quitely guy, and was pleasantly surprised. He seems to stem from a more European ligne claire tradition; it really worked for me, and I was surprised that the powers-that-be okayed it. I've only been skimming through the books on the shelves these past few years, bu it's quite a departure from the look they've been giving Superman lately.

So much for that art is objective thing eh? "new age drug addict artists" the heck does that even mean? Because he draws guys with big muscles he's taking drug himself at the drawing board? As for your jr. highschool reference that's more Liefeld than McGuiness. Besides, idealized or even exaggeration of the human form to convey a sense of power is part and parcel with superhero art. Some do it better than others.

I agree with you on Turner but I'm not sure why you brought him up since I made no mention of him in the first place. Since we're on the subject of drawing Superman big, I'd rather have Eds look to Quietlys wrinkled doughboy look. I can't speak for why other people or fanboys like Ed but for me his work has a tremendous amount of energy and it's cartoony in a good way.

As much as the guy gets dissed for having "manga" style (which just shows what most american comicbooks fans actually know about manga) he has many classical influences as well not least of which is Jack Kirby. Ed's no King, but his stuff is vibrant and fun which fits Superman far better than what Quietly is doing IMO.

That's not even to say I completely hate Quietly. I liked his layouts ALOT actually. The backgrounds were pretty good to. But his approach to the figures especially Superman himself is just very lacking. He's wrinkly and puffy. I can tell however that he's going for the Wayne Boring vibe but Wayne didn't have Superman belt sagging like he's got a beergut or have his cape look like a thin dinner cloth draped over his shoulders.

I'm sorry but I think Quieltys art does a disservice to what Grant is writing. I'm not even going to say he's neccesarily a bad artist, just wrong for this project like Yu was wrong for Birthright. Yu was another case where the layouts were great but his scratchy and shadow slathered figures ruined much of it.

In Birthright, there are shots where Superman is supposed to be smiling but his eyes are whited out and his gums are black and his smile is Joker-esque. I guess with writers layouts seems to take priority which I totally understand but you can't just dismiss the figure drawing aspect. You can arrange things on the page ever so artfully and tell your story clearly but if the figures look awful it undercuts the whole thing.

This is why in that one post I said "these can't be the only artists out there that they wanted to work with". I think the editor could have accomplished both finding the artist that's right for the project *and* giving Mark or Grant someone they liked working with.

At the end of the day,  this may just be myself and others disagreeing with the writers personal taste in artists. I can also see that if the projects are conceived together *with* that artist in the proposal stage that you wouldn't want to break up a team. It's a tough call.

I won't even say that Quietly should never, ever draw Superman even though his approach aside from his layouts is very off putting to me. I won't say that because I got sick of people saying that about Ed or about anybody who draws with dreaded "cartoony" style. Hey, I don't enjoy every cartoony artist out there. Don't get me started on Meguila.

I just think for this project, it's goals and ultimately who they are trying to reach I feel his figure drawing approach really just does not fit.

Art is obective, and that was my opinion, I guess if I disgree with someone that means I am not being objective? WTF?



I went to defined what I meant by it, in that he draws everyone as if they were drug addicts. In his case steriods.



No, it's both, nearly every comic artist tends to go through the big muscles is better Jr High phase. Some of those guys never stop and go pro, LOL.



And he is extremely bad at it. It looks like it does it because he doesn't know how to do anything else. He even draws robots with big steriod muscles and extras in the background, LOL.

Here are some good artists who are really into big muscles, and make everyone look like body builders, note the difference:

http://www.kenkellyart.com
http://www.imaginistix.com



Because he also draws everyone as if they were on drugs, this time with it being crack rather than steriods.



His style doesn't look anything like Manga to me. I like some Manga artists (there is no actual manga look unless you don't know much about manga) and I love cartoons, I never mention them as reasons for his artwork being bad. I don't see a hint of Jack Kirby in his artwork. That's really stretching it.



That's another thing that Ed is terrible at: layouts and backgrounds.

example: http://superman.nu/tales3/fathers/

I am not the biggest Quietly fan,  but at least I can respect his art since he appears to actual know what he is doing.

Ed knows exactly what he is doing. I'm sure Quietly does to. The mans knowledge, even his talent are not my issue. It's his approach.

I don't find Boris or Julie's work very intresting at all. Not bad but not great. But I can get with Ken Kellys stuff. I really like his Masters of the Universe peice.

I didn't say I was a fan of their art, only that they were good at doing big muscle art.

If you want great muscle art, then you have to go back to the renaissance ;)
or at least Rodin :)

Well see, that would seem to assume that Ed is actually trying to do what those guys do which is a closer to photo-real version of it which Ed doesn't do nor does he make any pretentions at doing. As Ed himself has often said "./he's a larger than life character so that's how I draw him". Ed is a cartoonist.

That also fits in with one of his biggest influences which is an artist named Bengis who did design work for Capcom on various games, only I find Eds stuff more balanced and reigned in.

Klar, check out the panel right before the rocket-on-the-desk panel for answers to both your questions.  You must not have noticed Steve with his 1990's "Death of Superman" mullet.

:s:

Personally, I like McGuinness' art.

But I don't think his art would've had the subtlety and relaxed feeling (which I think is important because of Morrison's using the idea of Superman being relaxed) that Quitely brought to the book.

But, he's suppose to be Superman, Superman has a set body type. Curt Swan, Neal Adams, even John what's his face drew him with this body type. To draw him like the Hulk is just as inane as drawing Bugs Bunny with Hulk Muscles. Every artist who draws comics is a cartoonist, that's what cartoonist means.

Capcom always had great artists working for them, all better than Ed, IMHO.

Just did the more careful read (more a look see) but ah........:)

And Rao, the last time I saw Steve Lombard he looked like Joe Namath - wait - THAT was HERE! :wink:

When is Number 2 due???

Superman doesn't have a set bodytype, other than he is ideally a physically powerful and handsome looking man with an obvious nobility to him. Which is where Quietly fails in my view. I can agreee at least in the sense that some bodytypes work better for him than others. The body type that Sigel and Shuster used is not the same as Wayne Boring and Swan started with something more akin to Wayne Boring went on to slim him up a bit. Geroge Reeves didn't have the same body type as Christopher Reeve. The Fleisher toon body type is different from STAS.

Oh, come on with the Hulk stuff. Dude, Ed's Superman doesn't look like the Hulk. His Parasite is prolly closer to how he'd approach the Hulk. Just to use the Capcom games as an example, Ed gives Superman a kind of Guile bodytype wheras Eds Hulk would prolly be more like Zangeif or Blanka.

On another note, it was intresting to see Steve Lombard there. I like that his design this time is less Flash Thompson The Later Years than his previous incarnation.

Bad news.

All-Star Superman #2 was to have a release date of December 21st, but upon looking on the DC Comics website, I've noticed that they removed it off the Dec. schedule and is now listed as January 18th. And #3 & #4 haven't even been solicited yet for Jan or Feb.
Either way, if you haven't seen it yet, here's the cover to All-Star Superman #2 to whet your appettites...



http://www.dccomics.com/comics/cm_popup.php?i=4562

I don't want to keep this thread focusing on poor Ed, so I will try to end it here. Let's see if you are right ..

I present to you The Hulk:

http://www.samruby.com/Heroes/Hulk/Hulk.gif

Ok people, who's body type looks more like him:

Ed McGuinness's Superman
http://superman.nu/superman-comics/covers/sup-166-big.jpg

or Capcom's Guile:
http://yorkdale.net/edvance/student_work/art/ssf2tguilepencils.jpg

Now Does Ed's Superman look more like the Giule or Zangief:

Capcom's Zangief:

http://www.catsuka.com/interf/icons/maggiorip_sf2zangief.gif

More Ed McGuinness to compare:

http://captain.custard.org/league/graphics/characters/bizarro.jpg


Now let's please get back to all-star Superman...

Ok
AS_S2 Cover.

Is that a raygun in Lois' hand or is she just glad to see him?

OMG, a Superman who is smart enough to be working on something complex and Lois with a Raygun, perhaps Rao should have a nice detailed section of this site for All-Star Superman. Someone at another board said something to the effect that this was the best Superman Series being publish by DC and the only Superman series being publish by DC, he was right.

(http://dccomics.com/media/covers/4562_400x600.jpg)

Dig the glowing green K tip and the colors on the gun :)

Quietly does a cute Lois I'll admit. But I like her better with black hair instead of brown. ..and hey a ray-gun! Awesome!

Not sure where Grant is going with the story but I'll be intrested to find out. The cliffhanger of issue 1, it was intresting but I was kind of hoping we'd see some of the classic scenario before going there yet.

I can see this will not be a very popular opinion here, but I found the first issue to be a little underwhelming.

I know that nothing could really live up to all the pre-release hype of this series, so I was prepared for that. It wasn’t that I thought it was BAD, either; it’s just that I found so many of Morrison’s writing choices and Quitely’s artistic choices to be too obscure or inappropriate for what the series is supposedly trying to do.

Quitely is a fantastic artist of his kind, I just have a hard time warming up to him as a “dynamic superhero action” artist. That’s not really his style despite his “widescreen” layouts. The closest he comes in that genre was the JLA: EARTH-2 graphic novel, which I did like. But his art style is in a more European comics vein that I don’t think translates as well to the straightforward  superhero stuff.

Plus, his anatomy doesn’t appeal so much to my eye, which has been “trained” to accept the 1970s Curt Swan/ Neal Adams model as definitive. That’s not his fault, I guess; it’s mine. As Super Monkey pointed out, the art is all subjective.

The ALL-STAR series was described as using a “classic vision” of Superman calculated to have the maximum appeal to everyone who might be enticed to pick up and read a Superman comic. I don’t know that is what they have achieved here. As I said , many of their stylistic choices seemed too obscure or inappropriate to appeal to a general audience.

It may be my own faults as a reader (although I like to think I can read a comic better than the average “outsider” that ALL-STAR is supposed to attract). But too often I found myself asking “why?” when reading this comic.

<SPOILERS AHEAD>

Why does Lois Lane wear a skirt so short that Britney Spears wouldn’t be seen in it?

Why is Metropolis the kind of unrelatable futuristic neo-city where Jimmy Olsen commutes to work with a JET-PACK and floating anti-gravity BUSES roam nearly deserted streets? (This kind of Metropolis is one of the things I hated most about the Cartoon Network version and the post-2000 Superman comics… despite being a fantasy figure, Superman should live in something closer to the real world!)

Why is Superman’s neck as wide as Lois Lane’s waist? Why does one panel show his body with a torso a third the length of his legs?

Why do ALL African-American males in this world have shaved heads? Why does the guy cleaning up Luthor’s office at the end look EXACTLY like the adult version of the little kid with the dog? Has Quitley only ever seen one black guy?

Why does Lois have brown hair and Perry White have black hair instead of vice versa? Why does Jimmy have that weird tall, spiky hairstyle?

Why is Steve Lombard working at the Daily Planet? In the old days, he was a sportsCASTER, never a writer, and he had no actual talents outside of playing football, engaging in sexual harassment and partying.

It was convenient that the Doctor Whowilly Wonka billionaire guy had a tiny little piledriver capable of exerting 200 quintillion tons worth of force, but WHY would he have such a thing available, and WHAT could he have previously needed it for? Superman has his flying power to keep from being simply driven through the floor by that much pressure, but anything else WOULD be, no?

Why would a U.S. army general, who must have more combat experience than you can shake a stick at, stand there lazily and allow Luthor to choke him?

Why are Willy Wonka… I mean Quintus… and his DNA Chocolate Factory using Solomon Grundy and Bizarro as models for their bio-engineered Oompa Loompas, when such creatures have a history of going on the rampage?

WHY wouldn’t a better chosen “All-Star Superman” team be, oh, perhaps Elliot S! Maggin and Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez?


Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to tear the whole story down with my little nitpicks, even though I probably sound as if I am. I understand that Morrison’s heart is in the right place and I understand what it is that he is tryng to achieve here. Morrison wants to restore some of the reader’s sense of  wonder, the rapid introduction of countless pulp science fiction concepts, the coolness factor of an imaginatively limitless Super-mythos,… the kind of stuff that is often mischaracterized and attacked as “Silver Age goofiness”. I’m just not wild about how he’s going about it.

And there WAS a great deal I liked about ALL-STAR SUPERMAN, too. From what little I had to go on in this story, I thought that Morrison’s take on the personalities of Clark and Superman were perfect. He’s the first Superman writer in many years who really seems to get it. His Superman is CONFIDENT. He isn’t an insecure mess who needs Lois or Batman to issue instructions on every problem.

Confidence, minus arrogance, plus a way of just OOZING benevolence, WITHOUT being a naïve man-child, IS Superman to me. Morrison nailed it precisely.

Best of all, Morrison chose a (sort of) endearing clumsiness, instead of an annoying cowardice, to make the Clark personality an effective disguise.

Morrison really does seem to be steeped in Superman’s rich history and is mining it for inspiration without engaging in pointless rewrites of what was done better by others. I couldn’t help but think that some of the dialogue sounded as if it WAS straight out of Kirby’s DNA Project stories (“She’s one of our SENSITIVES—genetically attuned to ALL life!”). Quintis vowing to continue Superman’s legacy brought to mind an old Leo Dorfman story of the 70s, where scientists of the future kept cloning new replacement Supermen as each one died in action. Luthor’s water rights scheme was a tribute to Gene Hackman’s real estate swindler in the SUPERMAN movie. And his fake reformation plot was no doubt inspired by Jerry Siegel’s original “Death of Superman” imaginary tale.

So you see my feelings are somewhat mixed. Maybe they will change as the next issues gradually come out and I get more used to the Morrison / Quitley approach. Right now I give an A-minus for effort and a B-minus for execution. That is not meant to take anything away from anyone else’s enjoyment of the series. I am glad new Superman material, here and in INFINITE CRISIS, is finally generating some excitement.

Get your sweet AS-S Desktop Wallpaper right here:

http://dccomics.com/downloads/#desktop_patterns

Despite my short finances and formerly 'adamant' stance not be sucked into buying yet another title, the extremely positive reviews convinced me to buy #1.

I was not disapointed.  I'm delighted with most of this book.  The art isn't all that bad and is a heckuva lot better than if they'd chosen Meglia or McGuinness.  Neither of those could have pulled this one off.

For the record, while I don't like McGuinness' art myself, and he himself calls himself a cartoonist, -- which goes splendidly with his cartoony art style -- Ed's style is appropriate for some kinds of Superman stories.  But I'd limit those to the goofy, silly ones and not the ones trying to tell a serious tale.  Can you imagine Ed screwing-up the Death of Superman by Doomsday or mangling Kingdom Come?  No way would those stories be taken seriously with McGuinness' art behind them.

My big dislike is the idea that Superman can be overloaded with solar power so he's dying from it.  But given how the rest of the book works so well, I can let that one go.  And those scientists could be wrong anyway as maybe Superman's body will have a belated adaptation to this new state of affairs.  C'mon, guys!  If this Superman becomes wildly popular, then no way is DC going to kill him off -- for good, that is.  One way or another, this Man of Steel is going to stay.

But that solar overload is a telling difference that confirms, amongst other things, that this isn't the mainstream Superman.  The current guy could take steam baths in the solar core without overloading like that.

FYI, a guy who can press 200 quintillion tons with one hand is wielding power on the order of 1% of the sun's power.  He's able to lift 2.7 x the weight of the Moon with one hand and 5.4 x that weight with both hands.  If they're claiming this is at least triple his old strength, then this Superman's normal strength levels could lift 1.8 x the Moon.

As for how that lab could withstand that tremendous weight machine?  They were working on genetically enhanced superhumans which obviously included superstrong types.  It would make sense that the lab had that facility for testing out their prototypes and either had suitable structural reinforcement for this purpose or they borrowed from the same principles behind those powers like Superman's to enhance that flooring.

Mario Di Giacomo put up annotations for All-Star Superman at http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/All-Star_Superman_1

That's part of the problem right there and what leads to this prejudice among american comicbook fans against a cartoonist approach. Basically the assumption that it can and should only be used for comedy. It's a BS preception rooted in the BS preception of what animation and cartoon art is in this country.

To limit Ed to just doing funny stories would be terrible. I think if anything anime and manga have proven that a cartoonist approach to art can convey a wide range of emotions and evoke all different kinds of imagery to tell many kinds of stories. Though to some extent I can understand your arguement.

For example, Eds art prolly might not be suited for Steve Seagles story about how he found the meaning of Superman in his own life. But Ed, would be perfect for stories that are a combination of action, drama, and humor which ideally is the kind of wonderfully mixed bag that superhero comics do best and ultimately what I think Grant Morrison is trying to do on this book.

As for Death of Superman that thing is nothing to write home about in the first place. Though the idea of getting both Ed McGuiness and Tom Grummett art just sounds like a total win to me.

This is why I never wanted to say that Quietly and Yu should *never* draw Superman. I just feel that they were wrong for the projects and their intended goals. They've been kicking around the idea of doing a version of Superman for Vertigo and I think Quietly or Yu would be right at home there.

Anyway, getting back to topic as Super Monkey requested and that I want to respect. It looks Lois will be playing a very pivotal role in this whole thing an so far Grant seems to have a good grasp on her character. As for DC, I don't put anything past them. The book being liked or having a well done version of the character by talented creators won't stop them from canceling it if they feel like it.

I can certainly see what you are saying. Personally, I do not mind. It looks to me (so far) that Metropolis is only on the cusp of newer technologies being utilized. There is enough to suggest that it's still an early 21st Century city (i.e., cars & trucks on the road w/ tires as opposed to hover-cars) Perhaps Metropolis is the only city to have these latest breakthroughs and modern marvels, while somewhere like Gotham City would not.





In this All-Star version, the Daily Planet is Morrison's workplace of choice and he probably felt that adding Lombard (as pathetic an individual as you can get) would be a quirky one for the more straight-laced supporting cast complete with mullet and 70's style thick moustache. Making him a sports writer as opposed to sportscaster is not that much of a stretch, in my opinion.





Most likely that sort of equipment would be used to test the upper strength levels of certain creations of his, to test them properly for the rigors that they were made to endure.





Well, perhaps he did off panel...we do see that later on that workers are taking down all of Luthor's notes and equipment as the police arrive to cart him away. Perhaps General Lane broke off from Luthor's grip and called for back-up to send Luthor packing.





A creature like Bizarro had generally been created by accident. A creature like Solomon Grundy was created by forces we don't quite fully understand. Quintum had created such workers under a controlled environment, and therefore had greater success for creating individuals that would not rampage.





Who's to say that they wouldn't be a future creative team on All-Star Superman? As much as I would enjoy to see Morrison & Quitely stay on indefinitely, alas I don't believe that it is in the cards.





I agree whole-heartedly.






Perhaps it will, time will tell.   :wink:


Please use quote tags next time, so that we can tell who wrote what. -SM

I feel this is an important point and one worth addressing.

All-Star Superman reads to me like a sort-of "What if the Byrne-Reboot Never Happened?" approach to the character.  This means that there's about 20-years of back story (1986-2005) that we've never read, but that can be assumed to have taken place.

Yes, Jor-El and Lara look different in All-Star than they did in the 1980s, but they also looked different in the 1940s.  I ascribe this to Superman's ever-evolving past.  Such change here is consistent with his 1938 to 1986 chronicles, and implies that his continuity continued to evolve in similar ways from 1986 to 2005.

Remember those wild stories from the 1950s where Superman would do something like build a complete underground city from scratch (http://superman.nu/tales4/stolethesun/?page=3) in just a few seconds?  We have also seen him assist scientists with their discoveries and inventions, in stories from the 1950s all the way through to assisting "The Project" (http://superman.nu/a/Kirby/kirby.php#source) in Jack Kirby's Jimmy Olsen run.   This was shown very well in Jim Starlin's story (http://superman.nu/a/400/exile/) from Superman #400 (and in the rest of the stories from that issue (http://superman.nu/a/400/cover.php)) where we saw how the very presence of Superman on Earth would have an incredible effect on the development and ultimate destiny of science, civilization, and the human race.

The "flying buses" in All-Star Superman is an example of seeing such development starting.  Humanity on that earth is just beginning to advance further than it is on our earth because of the continued presence of Superman.   I think that many Superman comics in the past had been crippling themselves in a way that All-Star isn't.  Other Superman comics have always had a "present" that had to be a direct mirror our own - but on a world where Superman has existed for a while, the planet couldn't be like ours.  Here, we're finally seeing scientific, technological, and societal advances that have taken place as a result, either directly or indirectly, of Superman.

This is not the same as the Brainiac 13 (or whatever it was) Metropolis from those old triangle titles.  In that case, the advanced Metropolis was a villain that Superman was powerless against and its creation was the result of a villain's actions.

Here, anti-gravity and rocket packs and who-knows-what-else are optimistic illustrations of some of the many ways that Superman is helping to guide us (http://superman.nu/a/400/bradbury-page.php) into a bright future.  They exist because of him.

These two different approaches, although they both present a "futuristic" Metropolis, have underlying philosphies that are diametrically opposed.

:s:

It is nice to see technological advancement presented as something positive rather than as a Luddite bogeyman. That's not to say that I don't enjoy dysopian fiction (I like it very much), but it seems to me that the horrors of technology are overdone in comics.

I've always liked the idea of Metropolis being quasi-futuristic; not as much as the B13 Metropolis, obviously, but instead being the most advanced city on Earth.

"We're building outposts of tomorrow right here, in the now. You inspired it, Superman, all of this..."
-Leo Quintum

"You don't need a Superman! What you really need is a super-will to be guardians of your own destiny! "
-Superman in "Must There Be A Superman?" from Superman #247 (1972)

"They can be a great people, Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you...my only son."
-Jor-El in Superman: The Movie

Which is how I believe it to be so.  Even in All-Star Superman #1, Quintum shows Superman that all of his life's work is inspired by Superman, perhaps it is the same with the people of Earth. They look towards the Man of Steel as an example and they see the possibilities of how they can improve their own lives and the world around them.

Possible theory according to the annotations link I posted:  They're having Jimmy loosely emulate Tintin's look:

(http://www.hotel-liondor.fr/francais/chateaux/tintin-milou.gif)

if Quintum looks like he's based on Willy Wonka with a modern-day Technicolor Dreamcoat...



Bringing up the annotations again, It looks as though this is an amalgamation of various Superman continuities.



It might be more of putting the biggest, popular names today in order to launch the book (ie Frank Miller on basis of SIN CITY film being out and YEAR ONE. DKR, etc; Jim Lee coming off the heavily ordered HUSH and FOR TOMORROW arcs).  It's a possibility that DC would feel a Maggin/Garcia-Lopez might not be quite as high profile enough.

On the bright side though, Garcia-Lopez came back to drawing comics with the RETURN OF DONNA TROY comic, and his upcoming work is a JLA CLASSIFIED arc written by Gail Simone, so hopefully more people will take notice.

His JLA stuff would be great but they picked Klaus Janson of all people to ink him. His tuff ends up looking almost like Ron Garney because Klaus is so agressively scratchy.

Overall, I'd say I liked it, although I thought it was flawed in several key ways. There were many doubters of Quietly's art and many praisers of Grant Morrison, however, I saw a reversal of the expectation: Quietly's art astounded me, while Morrison's plot and dialogue detracted from the story.

First, what the comic did right:

Boy, did it ever move quickly! Unlike some other feet-dragging writers I could name who indulged in decompressed storytelling to kill pages (*cough* BENDIS *cough*) despite the fact this comic indulges in an unecessary splash page or two, it introduces us to a new concept, spends a moment on a character, and in general speeds things up.

Dr. Quantum (and the surreal world around him) is a fabulous character and a wonderful addition to the Super-Mythos. Here's where Quietly's art delivers: the good Doctor is given fabulous dress sense that nails the character and his personality, a cross between Ziggy Stardust and Willy Wonka. Morrison's wooden characterization-free dialogue that he puts in the mouth of Dr. Quantum could belong to ANYBODY, but if you just look at the pictures, you get the character, in an embarassing case of the artist doing the writers' job. It would be wonderful to see what a writer who is skilled at characterization and dialogue would DO with a character as zany and surreal as Dr. Quantum.

Lex Luthor has a degree of menace in this story with a suitably grandiose scheme. Most impressive is the fact that he's able to accomplish something.

Wow, can Quietly ever draw a good Lois. And my heart is filled with local pride that Quietly chose to draw Steve Lombardi as closely resembling ex-Miami Dolphin Larry Csonka.

My breath was taken away by the astonishing rescue at the beginning: Morrison is actually able to create nail-biting tension here, by a crew that faces death on an environment as frightening as the Sun. A manned expedition to the Sun is an amazing concept. However, Morrison plagiarized the idea of an intelligent bomb whose philosophical purpose in existence is to explode from John Carpenter's first film, DARK STAR.

Most importantly of all, Grant Morrison has "got" Superman's confident, selfless characterization. Superman discovers he's dying, and what does he do? He doesn't make a single angst as he would have in recent days (though maybe he went through the seven phases of grief at superspeed so that he was already at "acceptance" in a picosecond). No, what does he do instead? Superman works to make arrangements that the universe is protected if something happens to him. "There's ALWAYS a way." He says.

Now THAT'S the Superman we all know and love! My friends, Superman has RETURNED!

Quietly and Morrison aren't perfect, but they've sure got me excited about Superman again.


What it did wrong:

Morrison's infuriating pretention shows up here. "If only we hadn't tried to steal fire from the sun, this wouldn't have happened." I GROANED so loudly I think the entire neighborhood could hear. These shallow, pretentious references to mythology that make very dumb people think they're reading something intelligent poisoned the latter half of Morrison's JLA for me. Note to Morrison: before you name a character "Prometheus," it helps if you find out who Prometheus ACTUALLY IS. Here's why Morrison's pseudo-intellectual comparison to myth doesn't work: Superman isn't "cursed by his own hubris." He was flying to save a crew of astronauts. He is entirely innocent. The comparison doesn't make any kind of sense. Is it that they went "where man was not meant to go" and they were punished for their hubris? Uh, no - nobody's punished except the innocent Superman.

Morrison, as always, just doesn't think through his plots. How did a genetically engineered suicide bomb get on a mission to the sun? Man, Dr. Quantum must have the slackest testing process ever. Presumably, a MISSION TO THE SUN isn't like a bus station where anybody can just get on or off. I'm not saying it doesn't have an explanation, I'm just saying that something that important was left unexplained.

Dr. Leo Quintum's (not Quantum though that's probably the implication) dialogue isn't characterization-free.  His dogged persistence to continue his mission because of his fear rather than being stymied by it was pretty clear in his dialogue and was in no way related to his artistic depiction.  His dialogue where he expounds how he revived the Project by being inspired by Superman was not art-based entirely in conveying his character.  But on the whole, I agree that the art outshone the dialogue for characterizing Leo. (It must be noted that in the real world, 90%+ of communication is non-verbal so this is actually realistic where the art shows more of the character than the words.)

As Kurt Busiek pointed out on his legendary thread here, different projects have different levels and types of collaboration between artists and writers.  Without knowing that working relationship and dynamic on this book, one cannot glorify Quitely as doing Morrison's job for him.  I know, for instance, that Kirby used to make the panels first and Lee penned the appropriate dialogue for them afterwards.  See Kurt's original posts on this on his thread for more on the collaborative process (and it was a direct answer to my questions to him on collaboration).

It's not clear if this Steve's last name is Lombard, Lombardi, or whatever.  Unless I missed something, he wasn't given a last name yet so maybe we're all assuming something without actual evidence yet.  It remains to be seen how this Steve will be characterized and how he will relate to Clark.  All we know is he's a would-be rival for Lois' affections, though Lois has absolutely no use for the man.

Well, some differences exist between the bombs of DARK STAR and Lex's creation.  Lex's version is an actual living, biological being as opposed to a purely mechanical AI entity.  DARK STAR's bomb malfunctioned and was going crazy, along with the rest of the crew and ship, after too long at their mission; Luthor's bomb was designed to destroy the sun mission from the get-go.  The DARK STAR crew knew full well the presence and purpose of their bomb; The Ray Bradbury's crew were infiltrated by this human bomb.  While a slight, very slight, resemblance exists, human bombs in general have been a staple of both the fictional and real worlds alike, so it seemed to have more to do with a tip of the hat to the previous movie than an outright rip-off.  We might as well talk about Talkie-Toaster of Red Dwarf if we want to get into AI's single-mindedly being obsessed with their primary functions.

Yes, amen to Superman being confident and working towards the welfare of everyone else -- first.  But it must be noted that the epilogue did have him dealing with his personal feelings after looking after the Big Picture first.  He talked to Lois about his own mortality and was clearly motivated by that impending personal death to reveal his secret ID to her at last in a scene reminiscent of the Superman 2 movie.

Morrison was not making a reference to Prometheus here, at least not directly.  Another poster got it right: Note the name of the ship "The Ray Bradbury".  Bradbury penned a famous short story "The Golden Apples of the Sun" where a ship went to the sun to steal a cup of solar plasma to power Earth's civilization.  It's not a great story as it was more about mood setting and had virtually no suspense and absolutely no conflict -- those two glaring errors marking it actually as a bad story.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any mention of Prometheus in Morrison's story at all.

Guys infiltrating secret projects happens all the time in the fictional and real worlds.  That's what espionage is all about.  Even Cadmus had an inside man from Luthor back in The Reign of the Supermen storyline.  We shouldn't bash Morrison on this score since it happens regularly.

It did mention that Luthor tampered with the sun in the first place to manufacture a drought on Earth that he could profit from (which harkens back to Superman: The Movie where Luthor wanted to artificially make himself a mega-rich mogul from destroying the original California coastline).  Also, that human bomb was clearly fusion based ("fusion in 30 seconds").  I wouldn't have any problems believing that it's later discovered that Luthor's tamperings were behind Superman's deadly overload condition instead of it being solely due to heightened, close solar exposure alone.  I'd also have no problems if the story revealed that Quintum erred in his original assessment as they truly don't understand how Superman's body works (and that was mentioned when they tried to read his DNA and gauge his strength).

It's absurdly simple to cure this condition anyway.  Let Superman use his powers in a way to drain the excess off.  Or expose him to regulated doses of kryptonite to draw the excess power out until he's back to safe levels.  Or ... you get the idea.

I did like the "fear is the steak sauce of life" line. Say what you will about Morrison, his dialogue is stylish. Though on the whole, Warren Ellis's work bugs me, his characters do say some things occasionally that are VERY funny.



The AVENGERS ASSEMBLE Busiek/Perez hardcover contains the Marvel-style plot for the first issue of Avengers. What's interesting about reading the plot is that you read humorous little bits, like Busiek telling Perez to draw Crystal in the Silver Age style. It's sort of like the Director Commentary on BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA, where Carpenter and Russell talk about what their kids are doing.

You are right that not having access to Morrison's script, it may not be possible to tell whose idea was what. It might have been Morrison that said, "okay, draw this, this way." Likewise, it might have been Quietly that inspired this or that exchange or dialogue.

However, it is possible to look at the art and the writing, and make a list of everything you know about the character from either one, and here it's longer if you look at the art instead of the writing.

One big case of the artist doing the writer's job is back in the first issue of Claremont/Byrne's "Dark Pheonix." On the first appearance of Kitty Pryde, her speech and actions in the story show very little about who she is. The ART, on the other hand, characterizes her perfectly: she has a star of David, and a big giant teddy bear behind her in her bedroom. (This is an example of characterization through art: what kind of a girl would have a big giant teddy bear with a bow on their neck in their room?)



Hmmm, you're right, for all we know, his name might be Baron Steve von Kissalot. Though judging by his jerkish behavior, the logical implication is that this is Steve Lombard.



I was pointing out a pattern of behavior that Morrison practices, of making shallow, puncturable comparisons to myth. "Prometheus" was a villain in Morrison's JLA run.



Don't forget all the evil agents the Evil Factory had.

While yes, there can be an explanation and it would be a rather easy one, too, the point here is that one wasn't offered.

Nothing was mentioned about the mechanics of how Luthor planted a man inside Cadmus in The Reign of the Supermen.  It was simply an established fact that the story hinged on to move forwards.  Similarly, Morrison didn't need to establish how Luthor planted his human bomb, it was simply was a fact needed to move the story along.

I guess we've agreed that 'Prometheus' wasn't one of those puncturable mythological references in this issue.  I'm not entirely certain Grant chose it for mythological reasons in JLA either.  It's just a cool sounding name with a whole lotta pedigree.  If you examine Andromeda, the Daxamite fill-in for Supergirl in the Legion, the name is cool sounding but the actual myths around Andromeda do not bespeak a heroic warrior woman but a helpless princess/damsel in distress.  Maybe euphemism was more the objective than mythological resonance.

But he didn't do that here, instead he made a joke, which was pretty obvious by the name of the ship. Even if you don't know much about Ray Bradbury, if a reader would just google him and the word sun and they would get tons of hits for Golden Apples of the Sun and a quick look a the plot of this story and the joke is revealed.

I agree completely with you guys re: the reason for those technological advances being present in ALL-STAR's version of Metropolis. Both the in-story reasons for their existence, and Morrison's reasons for using them in his mythos. I think you just misunderstood my objection to this element of the story.

Yes, Superman stories should have all kinds of wild and far-out things happening, and all kinds of utopian technological wonders. That's always been a part of the Superman saga. But there are limits.

Every Superman story is a combination of fantastic and realistic elements. There is a balance that should be maintained, though, and my opinion was that Morrison crossed a line and jarred me out of the story I was enjoying.


Let me put it this way... it was great for Jimmy Olsen to go zooming all over the world having adventures in a futuristic Whiz Wagon, back in the Kirby stories. But you shouldn't be able to buy a Whiz Wagon down at the local Metropolis car dealership. Jimmy should take a (non-flying) bus or subway to work each day at the newspaper, not the Whiz Wagon. And it might be fun to see ONE SCENE in one issue where the gang lands the Wagon on the roof of his apartment building to drop Jimmy off, while the neighbors all gawk and comment... but that should be it.

Superman's presence in the world SHOULD be inspiring, and lead to all kinds of fantastic events... but it shouldn't change the world too much from our own real world, or an important illusion is destroyed. In my case, anyway.

Now that I think about it, most likely Morrison intended Quintum as a sort of alter-ego for himself, in addition to his obvious fictional predecessors. Like Quintum, Morrison is taking his inspiration from Superman's past  (the fun stories about him that Morrison read as a child) to create something (this series) that he hopes will be amazing and inspiring in its own right, and lead the way into the future (hopefully better Superman stories by others).

As for the Tintin comparisons, yes, I realized that's what Jimmy looked like. I just wondered WHY. What is the point? Jimmy Olsen is an established character in his own right. If Morrison and/ or Quitley want to pay tribute to Tintin, why not create their own brand-new character? Should Superman be a blond,  mustached midget in a winged helmet because Grant Morrison likes reading ASTERIX? Should Perry White have a crewcut and J. Jonah Jameson mustache because Quitely likes Spider-Man comics? Again, this is something that jarred me personally a bit too much... have a Tintin character in the background or something at the Planet, and keep Jimmy in the good ol' plaid and bowtie, if you want to give him a slightly eccentric appearance. (Bowties are downright eccentric enough in 2006!)

Perhaps plagiarism is too strong a word. But you said it yourself: it's a genre staple and not an innovative concept (although fun).



I really, really hope not. There's nothing for annoying than a self-insertion character, because as they are an ego-projection, they're always right, always profoundly wise, and always save the day. I'd lump Gaiman's Morpheus into this category too, although SANDMAN was so astonishing it's easy to ignore.



I don't agree. I think Superman can be given a lot of leeway for futurism, as he lives in a fictional city and a fictional world with an emphasis on all that 1939 World's Fair aesthetic.

Alan Moore made a very valid point, which is that growing up reading comics, he loved the fictional cities heroes lived in because they were "America," an exciting and different place from where he was growing up in England, and when he wrote his own worlds as with TOM STRONG, he gave the cities things like cable cars hundreds of feet up, and so forth. While Marvel comics wouldn't be what they are without their injection of picaresque, streetwise New York humor, this does not mean that the fictional cities in comics can be written as New York clone towns.

There's a Luthor story on this site by Jerry Siegel which was also Curt Swan's first Superman for a 3D edition called "The Man Who Stole the Sun".
http://superman.nu/tales4/stolethesun/

Maybe Morrison is doing his homework. As a fan of the genre, you can generally deconstruct anything back to it's original sources be they HG Wells, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Edmond Hamilton etc.

The Bradbury/Sun gag was kinda obvious. Case closed.

You're looking too closely at the trees and missing the forest, dude.

What was innovative wasn't the human fusion bomb itself.  It was what was the ultimate objective that was the new idea: Using Superman's power source to kill him.  The bomb was a ruse to get Superman in that situation.

As I've said to you before, Morrison is not the devil.  On this thread alone you've made some pretty outrageous critiques of his All-Star Superman #1 issue which don't hold up to closer scrutiny.

While somewhat off-topic, with moderator indulgence please, let me speak to this.

A star of David tells us nothing about Kitty's character except that she's Jewish.  She could be one of those really nice Jews that you'd like to be friends with.  Or she could be an elitist, self-entitled kind of Jew who wouldn't want to be friends with you unless you were Jewish too.  That star tells us nothing about her character. (Yes, I used to work at a Jewish facility, got really close and was friends with one of the families there.  But once they learned I wasn't Jewish, they wanted nothing further to do with me.)

(Similarly, a crucifix on a girl doesn't tell us anything about her character either.  She could be a wonderful person.  She could be an uppity snob.  She could be just into crucifixes as fashion accessories.  You get the picture.)

While not all girls/women have stuffed animals, esp. giant ones, most of them I know adore the cuddly things.  Given the chance, most females I know would jump at the chance to own such a toy.  Again, this tells us nothing about Kitty except either her family is rich enough to be able to afford such a neat toy or she had a rich friend who gave it to her.  Or maybe she won it at a carnival.  Or she found it. Or she made it.  Or someone made it for her.  Or ... (I bought a giant Snuffles for my girlfriend and it cost me about $300 plus tax, so Kitty's bear is not a cheap bedroom toy.)

Captain Kal;  your example of snobbery applies to all racial/religious/ethnic/economic class groups.  As we both know, the attitude of the snob (i will only associate with others who are exactly like me) is the attitude of an idiot.  Btw it's not just girls/women who like stuffed animals & plush toys.  




       Back to topic.  While i am disappointed that it's not the pre-crisis Earth-1 silver-age Superman that is in All-Star Superman, i did find it to be one of the best Superman stories i have read in decades.

Now here's a review, so we have seen what us Pre-crisis fans think, but what about post-Crisis fans?

The Superman Hompage just posted a review, so check it out:

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/2006-post-crisis-reviews/c-review-2006.php?topic=allstarsup1

The following is an article from the newest WIZARD. It's commentary about the first issue of All-Star Superman #1, made by Grant Morrison himself. SPOILERS(of the issue and potential future plot-points) AHEAD!






ALL-STAR SUPERMAN #1, Pg. 1: The Origin

Morrison: I wanted to see how little I could do it in. It was a deliberate attempt to say, "Here's something new. This isn't going to be six issues of retelling the guy's origin." It was a joke on the kind of long, drawn-out origin retellings that we've seen of characters. We wanted to see how far down this could be compressed--it was down to four panels and eight words. I just wanted to go with the iconic images.

Pgs. 2-3: The Icon

Morrison: It's fantastic, isn't it? Frank's done the iconic Superman image for the 21st Century. That's the one. It's the one people will remember.

Pg. 4: Death Trap

Morrison: Haven't you ever woken up and felt [like a genetically modified suicide bomb in human form?] [Laughs] The idea was for us to always do our own introduction to Superman. We didn't want to see 22 pages of Clark Kent making his way to Metropolis. We wanted the introduction of Superman to actually be a Superman adventure. It was really important for this issue to have a complete adventure of Superman in it at the same time as we get a little recap of his origin at the start.

Pg. 6: Lois & Jimmy

Morrison: Well, the thing about Lois is that she always thinks Superman is going to win, so she writes the headlines before she even knows the news. That's how Lois sees Superman. "Well, of course he's going to win-he's Superman." Why wouldn't she write the headline? And then there's Steve Lumbar (that's how it's printed in this article, folks, Lumbar instead of Lombard, probably a misprint-BMK) the sports guy, who's kind of Clark's rival for Lois in the office. I thought there should be another guy after Lois, who's constantly making Clark the butt of his jokes. And then you get a little glimpse of Jimmy Olsen. He's kind of a cross between Tin-Tin and the preppy, golf-punk style. I thought Jimmy should be really modernistic and fashionable and that's the kind of clothes we thought would fit the retro look but could also be quite modern. He's got to stay in fashion but also look kind of out of fashion as well.

Pgs. 8-10: Lex Luthor

Morrison: Lex is evil, but also kind of weird. Why is he piped up like that and holding a baseball bat? We do these things to make you feel weird. Luthor looks like he's up to something really bad, but we don't know what it is. We just know he's Lex Luthor. I think the best Superman stories are driven by big, human drama. I think rather than it be something comic booky, I thought that it should be that Luthor feels that he hasn't achieved anything. He's taken the idea that he's mortal and Superman isn't mortal; he wants to make Superman die like the rest of us, so he can die happy himself. He knows Superman is going to live forever if he doesn't do anything about it. There's something so simple about being jealous of the perfect guy, and everyone can understand that. I think we empathize with Luthor because he has really human motivations. No matter how clever Luthor is, he's never clever enough. There's always someone more clever. There always has to be someone in his life that he feels is responsible for his failure. And I think that's what defines us. He uses Superman as a foil for his own feelings of failure and insignificance. He basically blames all of his troubles on Superman.

Pg. 13: A New Power?

Morrison: This is actually an old power. I hope people notice the nod to the old, short-lived electric Superman. That's what it's referencing. But he gets some more new powers as the series progresses. [Laughs] He'll get as many as I can think of. It depends how many the stories dictate. It has to make sense.

Pgs. 14-15: The Strongest One There Is

Morrison: We get the great images of Superman as the strongman here, which we really haven't seen in a while-Superman straining his muscles and breaking big weight machines. It's really simple, Superman as the muscle-man image that I think Frank captured amazingly in those pages. Yeah, and then as Superman shows that incredible strength, he's also told that's what's about to kill him. That's the All-Star Superman. That's the difference between him and any other Superman. He kind of blends elements of the original Superman, up until the Silver Age and the John Byrne [Man of Steel] Superman, who was solar-powered and his powers were more scientifically explained. We're kind of using that version and blending it in slightly. He's powered by the sun and the longer he stays on Earth the more powerful he'll become, and suddenly he's reached a critical limit. His powers are starting to overload and destroy his cell structure. A lot of the science comes from stuff I just remember or sounds good. It's not strictly scientific. [Laughs] It's another thing you can't imagine happening to Superman- to have that vulnerability to the power. In the sense that his own body actually can't sustain the amount of power he's able to absorb. I think it's interesting that the sun is the source of his power and then it becomes the source of his death. The whole next 12 issues are about what would Superman do if he knows he's going to die. He has a plan-of course he has a plan-he's Superman.

Pg. 16: Bizarros?

Morrison: They set up a Bizarro story that's upcoming. They get sent into space and there's an accident. And that's where our whole new Bizarro concept comes from in issue #7 or #8. It's a whole new take on Bizarro.

Pg. 19: Clumsy Clark

Morrison: Clark is constantly on the lookout for people in trouble and bumping into them and spilling their stuff. They just think he's clumsy; they don't realize he's just saved their life. Superman is always on the alert for trouble and he just fixes it constantly.

Pg. 20: Lex Gets What He Wants

Morrison: Oh, [going to prison] is definitely what Luthor wants. We actually see that in issue #5, Clark Kent gets trapped in prison with him during a prison riot. That's where we find out a lot of what Luthor is up to and his motivation is.

Pg. 22: The Big Reveal

Morrison: I thought about doing the reveal to Lois later, but it fit into what I was doing in issues #2 and #3. It suddenly seemed like the perfect ending to issue #1, because it changes the status quo instantly. But what we do with it, changes the status quo back in a different kind of way. Lois' reaction isn't what you expect it to be.

I loved that. You almost expected it to end with "Yadda, yadda, yadda".

Weird works for me. I still wish they'd make him a nicer guy.

Me happy now.

Now I'm not so happy. I hate the whole darn business about Superman revealing his secret identity and Lois and Clark getting married. It's supposed to be a sort of cockeyed menage-a-trois, with Lois not knowing that the two men in her life are one and the same; it's an integral part of the story. Taking that sexual tension out of it emasculates the character.

I think we generally agree that #1 was a great start.

I only hope Morrison can sustain this creative output for at least the 12 issues he promised this storyline would play out over.  I still recall how Loeb starts out strong on his projects than loses steam towards the end and seems to be making things up as he goes along.  Morrison seems to have a long-range plan for this run so let's wait and see.

I only hope this doesn't play out to the definite death of Superman in the end.  Superman's plan could very well involve a replacement for himself like Lois bearing the next generation Superman in the line.  Aside from his personal need to resolve his relationship with Lois in light of his impending death, perhaps siring the next generation is also part of why he revealed his ID to her.

What if Superman kept himself in stasis to be revived for only the most critical disasters?

Please refresh my memory:  Do the All-Star books happen in a shared universe or not?  Or is this Superman the sole super-hero on his fictional Earth?

Don't know if he is the only hero of that Earth, but the comic is self contained.

Mebbe when ol Supes is AOK, he'll lay some Superamnesium back on Lois
and everyhting will be status quo once again.

He would if it was 66 and the story was 8 pages. :wink:

LOL, I can dream, can't I?  :lol:

Did you miss this part:

"But what we do with it, changes the status quo back in a different kind of way."

I am thinking she will forget everything at the end of issue 12 :)

Yeah, but 12 issues is a lot more than 8 pages... :wink:

Not if you use Bizzaro Math!

Ah Bizarro math-- the cornerstone of fater than light speed.  :wink:

Just what would Dr Fate say about that? :shock:

I sometimes think Kent would wonder why comics went from 12 cents to 15 cents an issue, even with a "half-mask"... 8)  :D

Minor nit: While that Quitely cover looks cool, since Superman is sitting on a cloud, exactly what is his cape tucked under?  It looks like he's sitting on his cape like on a hill but that cloud isn't solid.

I just belatedly realized something.  While it's not exactly the same, killing Superman through the sun has been done before.  The final issue of DC One Million had Solaris trying to use kryptonite to poison the sun itself to kill Superman-Prime.

While this isn't exactly the same, Morrison seems to be borrowing from himself and tweaking it in All-Star Superman #1.  But instead of using the classic kryptonite weakness to poison the power source, the power source itself overloads this version of Superman.

While Superman has been overloaded in various incarnations before, this has never been a fatal condition before.  The danger in the past has always been to everyone else not Superman.  Interestingly, this overloaded/overpowerful Superman retains complete control over his increased powers and is even manifesting new super-powers as a result of his condition.  He tended to lose control in these situations when this was tried in other stories and incarnations.

Also, Morrison plans on bringing in an All-Star version of Solaris at some point.

It would like to chime in from the point of view of a fan who mostly enjoyed the so called Iron Age of Superman. During this time I have read some of the most compelling stories in my nearly 40 years of reading comics.

I will concede that Superman has been somewhat lacklustre the last few years with some pretty tiresome storylines. For a while it reminded me of the period immediately before 1986 where writers and artists were merely going through the motions and producing some pretty mediocre fare.

All Star has changed that for me. I am actually looking forward to reading Superman again after the disappointment of "For Tomorrow'" and especially "Birthright".

Morrisson and Quitley have produced a Superman for the ages. It has both the wonder and imagination of comics of my childhood and depth, characterisation and intrigue of modern storytelling.

I really do hope that theirs is the template for Superman for this part of the 21st Century!

Con, they done shooting down under yet? :wink:

Personally, I think some of the best Superman stories were told in this particular period before the reboot. Cary Bates and Elliot S! Maggin were both at the top of their games here, with one doing humorous and idiosyncratic stories and the other doing brief, plot-centered stories. Curt Swan, when he could get a good inker, was one of the more amazing artists on the stands. Mark Waid put in some amazing Superman backup stories, immediately after which, he decided to never be really excellent again. Marv Wolfman was...well...Wolfman, but even he couldn't sabotage Superman because he was carried on the shoulders of the giants at the Superman office, and Schwartz could say "no" to any bad idea.

Alan Moore's "Whatever Happened..." was an astonishing story. That ACTION COMICS story where he discovered a tenth planet where dinosaurs evolved is one of the most astonishing "Superman in Space" stories ever.

I don't understand why there was this perception that Superman was "getting tired" in the 1980s and so a reboot was inevitable. In fact, if anything, many, many plot threads were around at that point, which unfortunately, remain unaswered:

The Superman/Lana Lang relationship
Brainiac discovering that thing about the start of the universe
Superwoman and her future untold adventures
Lex's rankling for revenge at the destruction of Lexor
The Interstellar Zoo being rebuilt as a shrunken wilderness preserve

Also: welcome to the board!

Also, there has been no speculation as yet as what Superman's "new power" is.

For my money, it's probably THUNDERBALL FISTS!

DR. QUINTUM: "Superman...for success, it's essential you have Thunderball Fists."
SUPERMAN: (sounding very impressed) "I...I can have such a thing?"
DR. QUINTUM: "That's right - Thunderball Fists!"[/list]

Thanks for the welcome!

Yes it is true there were some remarkable stories even at the tail end of the Bronze Age. And I do have some favourites from that period.

What made "Whatever Happened to the Man Of Tomorrow? such a compelling read was because it was the last Silver/Bronze Age story bringing to an end what was nearly 40 years of mythos which started with the 1948 "Origin Of Superman" in Superman #53 (First series). It worked not just because Moore is a master storyteller but because of the emotional impact of it being the end of an era.

But it did take Crisis and Man Of Steel to bring me and many other readers back to the DC Universe and for a time Superman was a good read eg John Byrne's early run prior to the Pocket Universe fiasco, the Exile arc, the Eradicator, Krypton Man, Time and Time Again, Dark Knight over Metropolis, Krisis of the Krimson Kryptonite, the Death of Lex Luthor were some of the best Superman arcs ever.

It really has been in the last few years where everything has been undone in the franchise although there were stories that I did enjoy especially by Mark Shultz, Joe Kelly and Joe Casey.

But as a whole the post-Crisis Superman seemed to be languishing like the late Bronze Age version. And I am sure even in the so-called Iron Age version there a quite a few untied plot threads which some readers would like to have seen resolved once and for all.

All Star is a breath of fresh air in that Morrison is restoring the iconic nature that should be Superman but at the same time giving us a compelling read.

All power to him, as he might be the reason why Superman will survive well into this century!

Shooting down under??

From WIZARD:
Morrison: This is actually an old power. I hope people notice the nod to the old, short-lived electric Superman. That's what it's referencing. But he gets some more new powers as the series progresses. [Laughs] He'll get as many as I can think of. It depends how many the stories dictate. It has to make sense.

Con,
"shooting (SUPERMAN RETURNS") down under in (Australia).

 :lol:

Can't wait tp see my home town in the role of Metropolis!

Con

I loved it when The Warlord was written and drawn by the same person, Mike Grell.  There's something that sings when an artist and writer are in synch and on the same page in a title. I love it.

I loved how at the end, Clark bumps into the pedestrian to keep him from getting squashed by the giant falling muffler.

yeah metal falling on your head can just ruin your day

I have bought it last wednesday.

My favorite runs on the Superman titles (I'm talking about LONG runs... At least 2 years) are the ones by Maggin/Bates, Byrne/Wolfman and Loeb/Kelly. They have something in common: good stories where I can find wghatever I like in the Man of Steel and his legend. I want to see Clark Kent openin' his shirt in the janitor's closet at the Daily Planet, saving the day and writing an article about his newest adventure. And The Planet crew, Smallville, Luthor... You know, the classic elements.

Now, I can see all this again in a new, great title. This ALL STAR SUPERMAN book is really a good title, containing what makes Superman special to me. Only 22 pages, nut we have Superman, the Daily Planet, Luthor, subplots and a shocking finale... GREAT!
It seems a book from the Maggin era.

Waiting for the new relaunch in march, ALL STAR SUPERMAN is my favorite comic book now*.










*Actually, my favorite is ACTION COMICS, but the current run is about to reach its end...

Did Prof. Quintum remind anyone else of Elliot Maggin? I just kinda got the feeling that he was very Maggin-esque.

SPOILER:




Also, it says he got ONE new power. I took this to mean the lightning eye blasts. Others seem to think his new power is the fact that he uses his bioelectric field to protect the ship (even though Byrne's Superman did this all the time, albeit without mention or visual representation normally), so which is it?