Superman Through the Ages! Forum

I mean, have you guys ever noticed this?

I think I started to understand why when I was reading TARZAN AT THE EARTH'S CORE today. You've got to remember, Tarzan was a truly fascinating character; JUNGLE TALES OF TARZAN showed us Tarzan climbing a tall tree to challenge the Moon to a fight (!) and Tarzan has many personality traits that are absolutely fascinating: his curiosity, his savagery alternating with his sophistication, and so on.

And YES, Tarzan was a super-macho, outdoorsy, rugged, larger than life character whose arrows never missed.

But somewhere around TARZAN, LORD OF THE JUNGLE, Burroughs was mostly on autopilot with lost cities and beast-slayings and forgot to make Tarzan likable. You had the usual stuff about Burroughs reminding us time and again how mighty Tarzan is, and how great a shot Tarzan is, and how huge-dicked Tarzan is...and because Tarzan was no longer likable, I started to resent him.

So, in TARZAN AT THE EARTH'S CORE, Tarzan actually got LOST. I'm not joking, it was because of Pellucidar's never setting inner sun.

Let me tell you, I had to laugh at Lord Greystoke like that ugly kid from THE SIMPSONS.

HA, HA!

"Hey, next time, try Google Maps, huh?"   ;D

Likewise, Superman, as a character, is all about the excitement and thrill of power, and this sense nothing is impossible for him.

But if Superman isn't likable, if Superman isn't interesting, you start to RESENT him.

Combine this with the totally true belief that Superman is an "old fashoined" kind of hero (which is not necessarily a drawback, it's merely who the character is) and you get a lot of people not liking the character.

( Incidentally, I don't entirely believe Superman is entirely "old fashoined" in the same way, say, Buck Rogers is, because...well, did you see that scene in SUPERMAN RETURNS where Superman got shot in the eye and the bullet flattened? WOW, that was cool; the character has a great deal of untapped and very contemporary ability to make jaded modern audiences say "wow, that's amazing." If Superman is an old man, he'd be one of those skydiving, marathon-running, sunglasses-wearing sex maniac old men in beer commercials. )

A lot of the reason people think Superman is uncool is because of misconception. If you want to see a caricature of how Superman haters view the character (and the DC Universe in general), read Englehart's "Serpent Crown" arc, a pointed critique of DC's original universe.

The "Squadron Supreme," a semi-Justice League, are the uncool defenders of the status quo that work for the hypnotized wearer of the Serpent Crown, President Nelson Rockefeller (I can't think of a single leftist conspiracy theory of the sixties that didn't involve him; try to imagine if Ken Lay ever became President). The Squadroners speak in dialogue that is over-the-top, especially compared to the straight-talking, hip, liberal Avengers.

Hyperion, the Superman analogue, is an arrogant muscleman that believes might makes right, a scary and thickheaded "true believer" who boasts of his status as the planet's greatest defender all the while having a vague, alien passive-aggressive contempt for earthlings.

In the context of the political and social events of the 1970s, having a less patriarchial, Charlton Heston-esque Superman, as played by Christopher Reeve, was a pretty good move.

The most revolutionary thing that the SUPERMAN movie did, its most lasting impact on the character, was to have there be real passion between Lois and Superman, to the point where, at Lois's death, Superman breaks down.

What's got to be remembered is that Superman and Lois didn't really have chemistry in any popular medium before. George Reeves and Noel Neil were pretty chaste, Fleischer Superman had better things to do than play kissyface with dames, and even in the comics, Superman avoided Lois for the better part of his existence.

I would argue that the creation of a romance between Superman and Lois in that film was one of the steps they took to have a "likable" Superman and build away from the false pop culture image of Superman that was personified by Hyperion. One of the truly scary things about Hyperion, as written by Englehart, is his sexlessness, with comments like "I will never understand the courting rituals on this planet."

He's the grandaddy of the them all. The first, arguably the greatest, and he stands for very positive and universal things. He thinks beyond himself not out of guilt, vengence, or even circumstance, but because it's right and he needs no other reason. In short, when you're the top you are an easy target.

The single greatest act of overcompensation in comics is the Batman can beat Superman thing. Nevermind the inherent stupidity of two greatest heroes the world has ever known coming to blows or the fact that need for Kryptonite plus being up against super-speed, heat-vision, and invunerablity is a gigantic handicap, I don't care what kind of prep-time you got. It's funny how Superman gets dissed for being too powerful but Batman can act as though he got a copy of his own script in the mail, read seven pages ahead of the next scene and it's ok. 

I had one guy at work say to me "he has it too good". I never got a full explanation of what he meant as he was leaving the room when he said it but it kinda stuck in my brain for awhile. Maybe some think there isn't enough of a defining element of tragedy to him (which is kinda laughable when you think of the scope of tragedy in his origins) or that his life just isn't depressing enough I guess.

Some mistakenly connect the character with conformity which I think kinda comes from a rather narrow and uninformed perception of what past eras were really about and/or a knee-jerk and rather stupid reaction to images of him in front of the flag or as someone trying to maintain order. It's the same thing Captain America gets a lot where patriotism and blind obedience to an administration are viewed as basically the same thing.

Some just seem to wear cynicism like a badge of honor and take it to ridiculous extremes so anything that symbolizes hope or even fun is suspect. They only way they can even begin to wrap their brain around it is if it's deconstructed and dissected down to dust particles. It has to be challenged and ultimately proven wrong on some level.

..and some simply like characters in the vein of Wolverine and Punisher better only instead of being content to like anti-heroes or characters with an edge to them they must loudly rebel against anything that doesn't fit that bill. .. and of course guess who is the most unlike those characters out of all superheroes?


I agree with you about the movie. I mean Superman basically defies the cosmic law of not interfering in human history that time for the most human reason of all, love. I think it's good example of writing the character with a slant more towards the Kryptonian doesn't mean the absence of being able to relate to him.

These are all statements I've seen and/or heard.  I don't understand any of them.   ???

1)  Superman is too powerful. 

What gets me about this one is that there are several comic book characters more powerful than Superman.  Somehow, somewhere people got the idea that Superman can do anything.  I think it's Weisinger hangover.  Even though most readers these days don't even know who Weisinger was.

2)  Superman is a big blue boy scout.

Yes he is.  And what's wrong with that?  This for some reason is a character flaw to some people.  It's considered uncool.  Come to think of it Fonzie had similar values and he was cool.   ::)

3)  Superman is boring.

Why is Superman boring?  The answer to this is usually "Because you can't relate to Superman."

4)  You can't relate to Superman. 

This one is my favorite.  What it really means is that Superman doesn't always dwell on his problems or seem to get depressed.  People feel that there isn't enough human drama when it comes to Superman.  This may be the case but does everything have to be a drag?  Sometimes I just want good old fashioned action/adventure and fantasy.

Bottom line is Superman has an image problem.  He's considered old fasioned and unhip.  I happen to like Superman for these reasons.  It's refreshing to have a character who still has good moral values and principals.  Even if it is considered uncool.

I think this comment hits the nail on the head.  The people who don't like Superman are the people who are already prone to envy and who focus on the bad side of everything.   If you live next to a rich guy, you can either think, "he has all that money and I don't - therefore he's lazy and must not have done a lick of work in his life and I don't like him" and look at him with dusgust and envy everytime he drives by (like Lex Luthor would); or you can think, "wow, he must be a hard worker and a respectable guy - I'm glad it's all paying off for him" and look at him with admiration when he drives by, happy that his presence is improving the neighborhood.

Basically pessimistic people do not like Superman and optimistic do like Superman.

Super Monkey are you saying that Byrne is a pessimist guy? ;)

Since I did all my Superman reading before I was 12 (other than coming back to those stories many years later - in my 40s), I didn't need for him to have a romantic interest.  It was cool that he was friends with Jimmy Olsen, the Legion, Justice League, etc.

I liked Tom Corbett, Chip Hilton, Tom Swift, and the Hardy Boys as well, and all those "heroes" practically ran away from women.

That's quite interesting, because before I encountered American comics, and Superman in particular, my heroes were all from European comics, especially the entirely sexless Tintin. One of the things that interested me about Superman was that not only were there women prominently featured in the cast, but the main character had a relationship with one of them - and a rather complicated one, at that.

http://www.hembeck.com/Images/FredSez/SupermanXrayLoisTop460.jpg

Yes, it was weird.

Sword of Superman are you saying that Byrne likes Superman? ;)

Does he like him or does he, like,  LIKE him?

Like, I dunno!

Well, using "Chip Hilton" as an example (he was a star quarterback, basketball forward and baseball pitcher in a 23 book series published by the same people as "The Hardy Boys") - the books were specifically for kids (boys mostly) aged 9 to 13.  Chip had friends who were girl crazy, and the girls were crazy about Chip but he always treated them as a nuisance and a distraction from studying, working, and sports.  Except, his mother of course.

But then again, the books sold really well and then dived and went out of print in the early 70s.

I think the operating question is "Does Byrne like himself?" - or my own favorite "Does Superman like Byrne?"

I think that would be a resounding "no".  And here I am, the idiot putting this on a public board.

But, onto more interesting items...

I personally agree on the pessimistic/optimistic angle.  You've got to consider the viewpoint of the guy expressing the dislike.  My brother, for one, used to hate Superman, favoring the X-men over him.  But, then he went into Image, and all the BS dark and gritty stuff.  Well, you have to ask yourself, why?  Well, apparently it answers back to one's preferred state of mind.  This is actually why I'm not all that interested in Marvel characters as a whole. 

I like the idea of a perfect hero, I like maintaining positive but realistic ideas.  So when Supes does have a flaw, a good writer involves you in it and you want him to come back out perfect again.  My favorite Superman stories do that  - one that comes to mind is "For the Man Who has Everything".  What an appropo title to my point.  Even the last days of Superman before being revised is simply perfect in that manner.  Yes, I know they're both Moore, but he knows what he's doing with the character - particularly if his run on Supreme is any indication.  But many Maggin stories do the same thing.

So, I consider the guy making the comments "preferred state of mind" - and that answers the question.

Yeah, same idea as with European comics, or, for that matter, the Enid Blyton books one was spoonfed in the sixties and seventies, like The Famous Five or The Secret Seven: "I say! Let's go on a picnic and solve a crime while we're at it!" It's interesting to note that it was American comics that added a dimension of adult relationships, however crude, to children's literature. I'd wager that their regular and frequent publishing schedules almost inevitably led to a sort of soap-opera approach, resulting in an exploration of the main characters' interpersonal relationships.

By the way, I'm pleased to see you read Tom Swift in your youth; I'd never heard of him until recently, when I became aware of the craze for Tom Swiftisms, a form of pun to which I have become sadly partial.

In Italy Superman is often seen as a boring, perfect, unaccessible guy. Plus, add the fact that he is an American symbol and this makes him, for a part of the readers, the evil himself (like Captain America). Those who mix politics and comics are sad guys.

I am only sad part of the time --the rest of the time I optimistically look forward to the revolution when everyone will dress in Superman costumes and their will be giant statues of Jerry and Joe everywhere!

Dear Uncle Mxy but is obvious!  :o

i think that like any great icon or organization (yankees, cowboys, notre dame, and usa for example) people will always loathe whoever is on top and try to knock them down.  thankfully superman has all of us to continue upholding his legacy. 

 I don't think Superman is hated any more then any other comic book character, I just think more people have heard of him. I think Wolverine is overrated, but there are several people who think he should be the only thing on the shelf. I guess metal claws that come out of your hands is a cooler power then being able to fly or shoot lasers out of your eyes for some people. ???

The hatred for Superman in my opinion stems more from the idea that he is a block of wood that has no personality, bearing in mind that most of these people making this accusation don't read him on a regular basis; assuming they ever did. Superman is seen as the "establishment", the "man", the father figure always telling you to eat your vegetables. Our pop culture frowns on conformity and Superman is seen as the poster child for "how your supposed to be". Other people see him as perfect and like the idea of flawed heroes. Me, it just depends on what I'm in the mood for. I think you can still have a universe with a god-like superman and a flawed Peter Parker at the same time.   

Well one of the reasons is probably the 60s silliness, which all chars went through. During his first run, like Batman, Supes could be pretty brutal at times, people forget that.

Nowadays, when they compare him to other heroes, he may not seem human enough. He's basically the ultimate guy, seemingly with no weaknesses almost able to trounce anyone. Special situations or god-level opponents have to be introduced to beat him up, otherwise it's a philosophical type situation which is great, but hard when people want to see their heroes get beat up and come back.

It's sort of like... normal heroes like Batman, or even Spider-Man, can get hurt by normal stuff, the same way we can, so it's cool when they get back up from it. But you need guys like DD to take out Superman, or some strange made-up crystal. These are threats we've never experienced and have trouble relating to.

It's probably the whole clean-cut humble sort of attitude which can put people off, in the past we aspired to it, and we still sort of do... but you want to see a more realistic serious side sometimes. I think lately Supes has been showing this though, he's been pretty badass and saying stuff like "yeah I actually like being Super-Man, and I AM better." so he seems realer and less stuck-up. The problem is, most people don't read the comics and only know the general mythos, and don't know about how much he has changed in all sorts of ways over the ages.

Kids these days pick up a book like fifty two and see black adam tearing up someone's arm off and think "that's cool!" (how cool would they think if it were their arms ripped off)

And these are the same kinds who are mostly on the stage of puberty where they become rebels, and has to think everything is logical and rational until they eventually grow out of it.