Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Hi, I'm doing a project on Supergirl and haven't much  knowledge on the subject so i was hoping ye can help me. The title of the project is : Cloning and genetic engineering in sci-fi comics and it's impact on religion and the idea of the soul. I've been assigned to do it on Supergirl. Any ideas. Was Supergirl cloned from Superman????

This link should answer your questions.

http://superman.nu/a/Encyclopaedia/supergirl.php

Whoever gave you this assignment made many incorrect assumptions.

Supergirl and clones?  Religion and the soul?  Hmm...

I'm not sure there's much on Supergirl that could be used for such a topic, at least not the Pre-Crisis version.  Checking DarkMark's excellent comics indexing domain, I found two incidents when the "classic" Kara Zor-El was cloned, but religious aspects weren't really discussed.  

"Supergirl" v.1 #10 (Sept-Oct 1974) had as a backstory "Her Brother's Keeper", where geneticist Dr. Forte creates a "SuperLAD" from a secretly-retrieved Supergirl cell sample.  After Supergirl discovers her "twin brother" robbing banks for Forte, the clone questions Forte on why he was raised without a sense of morality.  Superlad later proves he has an ethical conscience when he kills himself rather than execute the captured Supergirl.  Now, it's not feasible to create a male clone from only female genetic material, so the science is off in this story.  Besides, most Supergirl fans consider her first solo series rather lacking in writing quality -- it only lasted TEN issues.

"The Daring New Adventures of Supergirl" #10 (August 1983) began a four-issue story (in Issue #13 the title was shortened to just "Supergirl", thus it's considered her second series) where Professor Drake creates six 12-inch-tall Supergirl clones.  Needless to say, the scientific logic behind six Super-Barbie dolls battling Supergirl is inexplicable.  But wait until you see...

"Supergirl" v.2 #19.  The defeated and permanently depowered mini-clones merge into one full-sized adult and escape!  Not only that, but somehow the combined clone forgets her original nature and believes she's Supergirl who mysteriously lost her powers.  In the meantime the real Supergirl forgets her civilian identity as Linda Danvers, so we have the clone masquerading as Linda and wondering who this super-impostor is while the real Supergirl wonders what she's supposed to do when "off duty".  Eventually the real Supergirl and her clone recover their memories and strike a deal -- Supergirl will find a NEW identity for her clone to live a normal life as she now desires.  Sadly, we never had a follow-up on this tale, since "Supergirl" was suddenly cancelled at #23, and Kara herself died during the Crisis on Infinite Earths a year after that.

The Post-Crisis Supergirl was Matrix, who was actually an artificial genetic lifeform.  (Not QUITE a clone, but close enough?)  Her shape-changing protoplasm was cloned in the "Supergirl" mini-series (volume 3), but an outraged "Mae" destroyed them.

Being an artificial being, Matrix did question what it meant to be "human".  This was further explored (with a LOT of religious overtones) during Peter David's 80-issues series ("Supergirl", v.4).  You should consult http://supergirl.astraldream.net/ for more details on this series -- this series probably has more relevance to your study.

Recently there was also a "partial" female clone of Superman.  Posing as Clark and Lois' future daughter, Cir-El was actually a brainwashed human girl who was genetically modified with Superman's DNA extracted from a hair sample.  Poorly received by Supergirl fans, Cir-El "erased herself" by jumping into a Timestream and presumably preventing her own creation.  I think you can mostly ignore this one.  ;-)

Good luck with your project.

Jeez, thanks a million for the info. I've never read a comic in my life so I wasn't sure where to begin. The project has been narrowed down to the influence of sci-fi in the last ten years. My group are doing the x-men, the novelisation of the star wars series and I was given Supergirl to cover. I'm reading one (and my first) at the moment where it shows how she merged with Linda Danvers who turns out, isn't a very nice person. Anyway, I'm going down that route as opposed to cloning. There's an awful lot of philosophy in it so it shouldn't be too bad. I started looking at the history too to see how Supergirl has changed throughout the years. Morally, how do think she differs bearing in mind, theres a focus on the last ten years?

The Supergirls since about 1986 are not really Supergirl.

To read about the real supergirl, check out these comic on-line for free:
http://superman.nu/a/tales.php

Incidentally, the Supergirl index and others are at http://darkmark6.tripod.com/indexintro.html .

The current comic book version of Superboy is a clone.  Maybe someone is confused.

Thanks for providing the link, DarkMark!  And thanks again for your work indexing all those comics!  My Supergirl collection is almost entirely due to your list  -- I was able to avoid some expensive early Action Comics purchases when I discovered that several stories were reprinted in issues I already had.

Ms BonJovi, I'm glad to help.  Peter David was able to salvage Matrix (who was generally unpopular for many reasons) and cast her in a new series that lasted far longer than all of Kara Zor-El's series combined.  Some might bristle at his incorporating various "classic" elements (the "Linda Lee Danvers" identity, Richard Malverne, Comet, Guardian Angel "Kara" etc.), but so long as DC mandated that the earlier Supergirl "never existed", these little "tribute" references were about the closest to the "real thing" that despairing Supergirl fans could hope for.  

And of course there were many devotees who still rejected the "Goo-Girl" or took offense at the overly-spiritual "Earth Angel" aspect that was completely foreign to the original Supergirl concept.  There may be good reasons to suspect that Peter David had an original character and story in mind and simply injected that into Matrix's protoplasm while adding old Kara Zor-El trimmings to further camouflage his creation.

This particular website is dedicated to the Pre-Crisis Superman universe, so for most regulars here "Supergirl" was, is and always should be Supe's little cousin from Argo City.  Thus, despite her own long career (1986-2003) the Matrix/Linda Supergirl is still considered an impostor, the animated Kara In-Ze from the PLANET Argo is "closer, but not the same" and the less said of Cir-El the better.   :wink:   Time will tell whether the newest Supergirl will fully win acceptance, even if she DOES bear the magic name, "Kara Zor-El".

As for me, I'm not too discriminating (though I still cringe a bit about Cir-El).   :wink:   If Superman was fine with Matrix and Linda wearing the "S", then who am I to say "No"?  I do consider the Silver Age Kara to be "First Among Equals", though.  Having met several alternate Supergirls in her career (Power Girl, Marvel Maid, Luma Lynai, Louise-L, Earth-D's Supergirl, etc.), I suspect Kara Zor-El would only modestly accept that distinction rather than the "One TRUE Supergirl".

As you already noticed, originally Linda was a lost soul.  Peter David's Supergirl series is about the path to redemption, though poor hard-luck Linda never achieved the lasting happiness and peace of mind she desired, and finally considered herself unworthy of wearing the "S".  I actually think at that point nobody else desired it more -- no one TRIED harder to maintain the impossibly high standard that "Supergirl" represented, and no one save perhaps Kara herself ultimately paid so tragic a price.

OK, I'll dive in.

Wasn't the Matrix Supergirl orginally a clone of the Pocket Universe Lana Lang, whith a little DNA manipulation thrown in?  Sounds to me like this is where the assignment came from.

Starchild, you're very close.  Created by the "Good" Lex Luthor of the Pocket Universe, Matrix was a protoplasmic artificial lifeform that could assume the appearance of Lana Lang or Supergirl.  "She" could even transform "herself" into SuperMAN!  But Matrix was not really a clone of Lana.

The protoplasm aspect is a "nod" to the classic Superboy story where Lex attempted to create artificial life, but the protoplasm experiment was destroyed in a lab fire that also cost Lex his hair.  See http://superman.nu/tales2/howluthormetsuperboy/?page=4.

Hi again. Sorry to be annoying ye. I know I have very limited Superman knowledge and it must be frustrating me asking questions but I'm just wondering some things.

The last Supergirl merged(as such) with Linda Danvers. Can this constitute in some way, genetic engineering. It's artificial and human life-forms moulded together to create another life-form of sorts. Also, after this all takes place, Supergirl begins to question her own identity and in a sense her place in the grand scheme of life. This seems to me to be diluted with religious overtones. The idea of the soul is hinted at when she wonders is she Linda or Super-girl. She doesn't accept that she is both initially because traditional religion assures us that we are one person with one soul. Just look at how conservative Catholics deal with mental health. Here in Ireland, it has always been ignored and swept under the carpet by the churches influence who ran this country for many years.

Was Super-girl unsure of her identity because she was unsure of the possibility of 2 souls co-existing.Sartres idea of duality(1 body, 1 soul which depart from each other at death) is instantly recognisable and accepted by nearly all religions.

Or on the other hand, has Super-girl any comprehension of what a soul is and when she received one through Linda, this lead to her distressed and confused behaviour. I know that this is a lot of analysing but unfortulately as an English student, they make us do it.

Have ye any ideas. It requires a very open mind I suppose. And I also was wondering, what beliefs had the author when he wrote this?

Bye for now

Ms. BonJovi, I'm not a Matrix/Linda expert, but certainly the "merging" created a new lifeform with Supergirl's powers and Linda's (albeit tainted) soul.  Was this merging "scientific" or "spiritual"?  Hard to say, considering that Matrix probably had no conscious intention of combining her artificial lifeform into Linda's dying body -- she just wanted to save Linda in any way possible.  Such a selfless sacrifice alone could produce an Earth Angel, but since this act of salvation occurred in the midst of a satanic ceremony one wonders if this interplay of Good and Evil forces helped produce this "miracle".

As Matrix/Linda questioning her identity/identities, on one level this is understandable -- who's REALLY in the driver's seat?  It certainly appears that Matrix is predominant in the beginning, but along the way as more of Linda's memories resurface the distinction blurs.  Is Matrix simply assuming the identity of a dead girl?  This is certainly a distressing thought, since Matrix had promised the Danvers that she would rescue Linda, not impersonate her.  Or as Matrix comes to understand Linda more, does she allow Linda to assume control so she will have the opportunity ("free will") to atone for her past sins and "redeem" her lost soul?  

Matrix had earlier questioned whether an artificial non-human lifeform could possess a soul.  After the merging, Matrix provides the "body" for Linda's "soul", but still there seems to be two conscious beings in play.  After the separation in Issue #50, Linda feels an emptyness that's not entirely due to her severely reduced powers.  But at this point Linda is her own person.  When did she "recover" her own soul?  Was it in Issue #50 or later when Linda sacrificed herself and was restored to life?  I suspect the latter, but admittedly my direct knowledge of this series is incomplete at best.

I somewhat hesitate to suggest this, but you might find better Matrix/Linda experts on the DC Message Boards, particularly the Supergirl board at http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/forum.jspa?forumID=29209082.  Be warned that compared to the welcome civility in the Superman Through the Ages! Forum, the DC Message Boards can be a "rough neighborhood".  There are some particularly boorish posters in the Supergirl boards who I will not identify.  However, there are also some Linda fans who are well-spoken and very knowledgeable.  You might want to post your question there, and hope the thread doesn't get hijacked in one of the ongoing flame wars.

Again, good luck with your project.

I somewhat hesitate to suggest this, but you might find better Matrix/Linda experts on the DC Message Boards, particularly the Supergirl board at http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/forum.jspa?forumID=29209082. Be warned that compared to the welcome civility in the Superman Through the Ages! Forum, the DC Message Boards can be a "rough neighborhood". There are some particularly boorish posters in the Supergirl boards who I will not identify. However, there are also some Linda fans who are well-spoken and very knowledgeable. You might want to post your question there, and hope the thread doesn't get hijacked in one of the ongoing flame wars.


It's least it's not the Comic Rescoure Board, where it's POSTER beware!

Hmm.  Somehow that link is off.  Let's try again:

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/forum.jspa?forumID=29209082&start=0

Hopefully that should work.  Be careful out there.   :wink:

It's amazing how many guys jump at the chance to help out a girl when so many topics go unreplied to.  :wink:

Megatron, do I interpret this to mean that we should NOT be helpful on this board?  The questioner asked about a Post-Crisis character, which normally falls outside the scope of this forum.  Since other posters either have little knowledge (or interest) in this Supergirl, it seemed only appropriate to contribute what little information I had to offer.  If I was researching for a school paper I'd certainly hope others would lend similar assistance.  On many occasions I've asked questions or desired feedback on various message boards -- and many times I've only encountered digital silence. It's not pleasant feeling ignored.  And that's something I don't wish upon other posters, especially if I happen to know the answer.

As for unreplied topics, I respond whenever appropriate.  Indeed, recently I've wondered if I've become TOO "gabby" on my frequented boards.  Perhaps I should just shut up for now.

Hey, we need all the "gabbers" we can get over here.  Keep up the good work dto.

Perhaps not, please keep posting, gab away! :D

Didn't mean to cause any trouble. Thanks for the help. Might call again!!! Go raibh maith agat!

Well, I read the series, and have a special place in my heart for the Matrix/Linda/Supergirl myself, so I'll try and take a jab at it.

The good Lex Luthor from the Pocket Dimension stated he used the genetic imprint of Lana Lang to create this psuedo Life form called Supergirl.  So exactly how much of Matrix was Lana Lang?  We'll never know to be honest.  She had shape changing abilities though, so she could become anyone, looks wise.

About the merging of the souls.  The one thing I could see from that was that Matrix never had a soul.  She was artificial, and easily manipulated.  She could never grasp so much, and she felt empty.  Soul-less.  When she gave herself freely to save Linda, and they merged, as stated above, she merged herself with Linda, her body, Linda's soul.  They became one person.   Now, its very arguable that this couldn't have been possible with two real live people.  Religiously two souls cannot merge.  But if one is without soul, then I guess it makes it easier to believe.  There were other Earth Angels in the PAD series... and it was never explained how they merged.. I think more insight could have been done with the aspects of the others.

Supergirl had a hard time adjusting.  Was she Linda Danvers in Supergirls body?  Or was she Matrix/Supergirl, with the memories of a dead Linda Danvers?  It took her a long time to fully realize that she was as much Linda Danvers as Supergirl, and to be honest as the series kept going, the more you realized that she was truly more Linda Danvers than anything else.

I have no idea if that helps or not.