Superman Through the Ages! Forum

There was Jurgens' SUPERMAN #148, "Duel on a Distant World." First, the book brings back Vartox, and gives him a much more dignified outfit, yet one that still looks distinctly and recognizably "Vartoxian." Unlike other comics that have Superman earthbound, this one is set in outer space with Superman as a champion representing earth - a favorite theme of Cary Bates.

Superman is taken to a planet where he and other planetary champions, including Vartox, are asked to help a group of silicon-based aliens who are to be enslaved because of their telekinetic powers and never reach their full potential. The rock aliens are especially cool: they emerge from the planet itself and are somehow one with it.

The story has Superman be both intelligent and humanitarian. When Vartox, who, as usual favors flying all half-cocked, Superman instead refuses to just apply force to the problem and creates a plan. He reins in the instinct to kill and insists the others show mercy. In other words Superman behaves as he ought to.

The story has aliens, spaceships and neat STAR WARS stuff. Vartox bashes through a tower with Hyperenergy. There was one alien planetary champion that was a toad-looking creature with the ability to teleport and create gates and "windows" through space.

The story had Superman fly into space to help NASA repair a power pack on a Mars lander. This is in marked contrast with Superman being earthbound (especially in the Panic in the Sky Warworld tale).

It has Superman perform a frankly awesome display of power: he lifts and completely destroys an entire alien space-cruiser (once he was sure it had no one inside it, of course).

You know, for years, I thought Dan Jurgens was the Devil. The guy was involved with BOTH the Spider-Clones story and the Death of Superman, to say nothing of creating "Thor Girl." But recently I read a retrospective on the Spider-Clone Saga where Dan Jurgens emerged as the voice of reason who resented not being able to write stories about the character he grew up with.

And I guess I confused his AQUAMAN run with Erik Larsen's, but on rereading Jurgens issues of AQUAMAN, we saw a grandiose Ocean Master conquering Cerdia. One of the few occasions Aquaman was ever cool.

So I guess I could say I misjudged Jurgens. If you're reading this, Dan, my bad.

I can't say I've read enough to actually have an opinion.  All_Star Superman certainly foots the bill for me.

I like your characterization: Pre-Crisis means space opera, a thinking Superman, a super-powerful, space-faring Superman, and a Superman with super-powered super-friends (and who he is generally the leader of).

What strikes me about many post-Crisis stories, especially in the Superman continuity, is that DC seemed to have regretted the revamp almost immediately, and kept harking back to the Bronze or even Silver Ages. I haven't got a complete run, but it seems to me that Jurgens, for all the silliness he injected into many of his Superman stories, seemed to be making a fist of bringing all the old stuff back, by EXPLAINING it with SCIENCE or otherwise replacing it into a more sober context, in order to make it more acceptable for the 80s-90s reader. Unfortunately, it grew old fast. Superman travelling in space with a breathing mask? Come on.

All-Star Superman quickly comes to mind.

Also these issues:

http://superman.nu/tales3/typical/
http://superman.nu/tales4/super-comet/
http://superman.nu/tales5/rivalry/

and this:
http://superman.nu/super-sons/nomore/

One of the main difficulties for me in trying to find post-crisis Superman stories that were pre-crisis in spirit is that a good percentage of the post-crisis run was really part of a much larger continuing story arc.  There were very few actual stand-alone issues.  I suppose that in theory there could have been a long story arc that was pre-crisis in spirit, but to me having an extremely long story with chapters by different writers and artists which plays out over the course of a year is a very post-crisis specific concept that would by its nature preclude a story from consideration.

So I would only nominate a story that was for the most part self-contained in one issue, maybe two issues max if it was really good.

Further, I only read about half of the post-crisis Superman comics, because I would continually drop the Superman titles in frustration, then pick them up again, then drop them, then pick them up, then maybe just follow one or two of the four for a while (trying to follow creators I liked and avoid ones I disliked, a difficult thing to attempt in the triangle era), etc; continually repeating that process over the course of fifteen-or-so years.


True, Julian - but I don't think that a pre-crisis Superman would have to "reign in the instinct to kill."  That's a definite Jurgens touch.

I doubt I'll ever turn around on my opinion of Jurgens time on Superman. His version of the Toyman alone drives me crazy.

The All-Star comics are their own worlds, not part of post-Crisis (except if you count post-Crisis as "anything after 1986").  Morrison's DC: ONE MILLION stuff did have a Pre-Crisis feel to it and was clearly in Post-Crisis.

My vote goes for One Million too.

That character also appeared in All-Star Superman :)

And the circle is closed....

There are some basic points that make the difference:

1 - Superman as the real identity in Pre-Crisis;

2 - Krypton being a utopian future;

3 - Superman being effective.

John Byrne´s revamp reversed all of this, and after his run on the books, the Jurgens/Kesel/Ordway/Stern followed his steps. It wasn´t until 1996 that Mark Waid and Grant Morrison started to bring the real Superman back, this leading to the Loeb/Kelly revamp, Birthright and current Busiek/Johns/Donner. Their fist stories still suffered od editorial interference, but JLA, Superman for All Season, and Return to Krypton were the beginning to the full returns of pre-Crisis Superman. DC One Million was the high point of the reconstruction, no doubt about that. Kingdon Come is like a manifest against the Iron Age, a celebration of the iconic and noble super-heroes and a comentary on the comics industry itself. Hence, this stores are not only in the spirit of Pre-Crisis, they are a celebration of Pre-Crisis and an reaction to Post-Crisis.

We have again the points that make Superman the real Superman. The loneliness angle. The Optimistic view of Krypton and the future of mankind. Kal-El as kryptonian becaue this means a higher moral standart. And a Superman that is not a porn star or a murderer or a Peter Parker loser, but the word´s greatest superhero. This is Post-Infinite Crisis now. Let´s see what happens in Post-Final Crisis...   

Concerning the ever-glorious All-Star Superman, I would, devoid of any off-hand evidence, deduce that it is in fact a continuation of the exploits experienced by pre-Crisis Superman.

All-Star Superman is pre-Crisis Superman: the Lost Years....

I know I'm way in the minority here but People really read something majorly different into Kingdom Come than I do to me its very very iron age. I see as very bleak naturalist and missing the point of Superman.To me forgot the "Super" and became no longer larger than life and confused just the opposite of what they claim. He individual panel is a pretty painting but tell the story poorly and not  very excitingly. I has left comics but heard about Kingdom Come. It annoyed me so much I didn't even want to think about Superheroes again untl  TAS Justice league showed up and reminded me why the characters were cool! To me Kingdom Come is very solidly much of what was wrong with the iron age. If I reread it it the comic still really makes me mad.

From the book Superheroes: The Secret Oigin of a Genre, by Peter Coogan:

"Alex Ross and Mark Waid in Kingdon Come do narratively what I attempt to do here analytically: to describe the shift that appears to be taking place in superhero comics, altoughh Ross and Waid´s work is an explicit argument in favor of that shift. The confrontation between Superman and the out-of-control superbeings that they depict is an illustation of the conflict between the two competing ages of superhero comics, Iron and Renaissance. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, the key Golden Age superheroes, lead  the fight against the Iron Age anti-heroes and hopefulness of the Golden Age has returned in the Renaissance Age to defeat the darkness and cynism of the Iron Age".

About the JLA: Animated Series, it is based on Post-Crisis continuity and presents a Superman that is the weakest of them all.

weaker but  noble and caring and heroic and certainly strong enough to take his proper spot.amoung the heroes of that universe.. Many stories were based on pre-crisis events also. TAS gets the point more than any recent comic has to me anyway. I also know I'm in the extreme minority here who likes the more limited Superman. Thats also why I like the earth 2 all- star guy too. I know I'm a weird Superman fan who actually likes these atypical depictions of the character
Well, Kingdom come certainly does seem in favor of the shift to me also.

"Clark decided he must turn his titanic strength into channels that would benefit mankind, and so was created...Superman!" gets repeated a lot in the early stories.  Clark comes first.  To me, the keys to "1" are:

- Does Superman live longer than regular humans do?  If he does and he knows he does, then Clark is either a fiction or everyone slurps from Infinity Formula while basking in their own Lazarus Pit.  Given comic book time, I suspect the latter is true.

- When does Superman find out who he is and where he came from?  Pre-Crisis, he knows he's different early on, but how and when he learns where he's from has morphed.  Some aspects of total recall and full command of language at age 2 are scar-for-life frightening.

- Does Clark really "matter" to Superman?  If someone who knows his secret were to ask him "what's your job" in close quarter, would he say "to write a news story" or "to fight crime and evil".  How often does he speak of Superman and Clark in the third person?

Well, what I meant was Superman was fighting the killer urge in other, more warrior-minded alien heroes that he was paired with.

“No killing! You may fight that way on your planet, but not today.”

Dan Jurgens comes off more and more as Goneril’s husband in KING LEAR: a good man surrounded by scoundrels. Here, when writing a self-contained story, Jurgens pretty much told a story very Pre-Crisis in spirit: Superman fighting in outer space, Vartox’s return, Superman using his mind and strategy, and showing restraint and a cosmic humanitarianism.


This post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the Pre-Crisis Superman comics.

Lots of people don’t like Pre-Crisis Byrne/Wolfman/Helfer Superman. I mostly agree and understand with this view. However, what’s worse is people have redefined Pre-Crisis Superman’s identity in reaction against and opposition to Post-Crisis.


This is a perfect example of what I mean. Where…where in Pre-Crisis was it stated that Superman is the “real” guy and Clark Kent is the “disguise?” Maggin believed this was so, and described the relationship between the two in those terms.

But lots of other writers…in fact, most writers of this era, didn’t see it that way. Len Wein believed it was Clark Kent that was the truer identity, for instance. Cary Bates, in “Who Took the Super out of Superman?” said it wasn’t as simple as one is “real” and the other is a “disguise;” they’re intertwined and he can't be one without the other.

In other words, Pre-Crisis, there was a diversity of opinion on something as complicated as Superman’s identity. 

Though along comes Post-Crisis, which definitively states that Clark Kent is the more central identity. So, what’s the reaction? “Superman is the real identity and Clark Kent’s the disguise! That’s how it was Pre-Crisis!” Well, not really.

As my Father told me, "Reactionaries are called that for a reason.”


Again, also something of a misrepresentation of Pre-Crisis.

Pre-Crisis Krypton was certainly better off than earth in many ways, and much more exciting and exotic than Earth (just like John Carter’s Barsoom was), but it would be misleading to call it a “utopia.” There was crime, evil scientists, Generals staging coups, serial killers, and a government that was (ironically) stagnant, conservative, foolish and self-satisfied (which is what led to that civilization’s demise).

Mark Waid had the most interesting take on Krypton: it was far from a utopia, but rather a frontier world that required guts and toughness to tame.

It’s interesting to note that except for the "movie" Krypton, just about every version of Krypton has scary, tough wildlife.

The Byrne/Wolfman/Helfer Krypton was a Dystopia, yes, but reacting against this to the point of saying Pre-Crisis Krypton was a “utopia” is not being honest to what Pre-Crisis Krypton is about.


Actually, this statement is accurate.


Boy, was KINGDOM COME awful. It was like going out on a date with a Norwegian girl: yeah, she looks pretty, but she's also cold, humorless, and not a lot of fun at all.

That’s KINGDOM COME right there: it was the STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE of supercomics. It so concentrated on being BIG and IMPORTANT that it forgot to remind us just why we liked these characters to begin with. It lacked warmth, it lacked humanity.

There were only four things in it that were even remotely fun, unstifling and interesting:

1) The whole “Quit making the world safe for science, Beetle, and let an old man be paranoid” interaction. If only the miniseries had this much personality and character as this one panel did!

2) The superhero diner sequence.

3) Batman saying “Ah, so that’s what that feels like” when Superman walked out in the middle of a conversation.

4) That annoying kid from Superfriends getting popped in the face. God Almighty, never in my entire life have I wanted to own an original piece of art more!  ;D

Other than that, this was by far the most cliché story of all time. Every element seen here has been seen elsewhere: Superman vs. Batman, Superman getting together with Wonder Woman, heroes trying to fix society but going too far and getting lectured on why this is wrong, and finally, the most cliché element of all: aging heroes coming out from retirement because the world is a mess.

If someone other than Alex Ross had done this miniseries, like say, George Tuska…nobody would have cared about it at all.

And worst of all, it was done with a totally sanctimonious, full-of-itself tone with BIBLE QUOTES. Bible quotes, people!

Every Alex Ross painting of the Superman vs. Shazam battle looked like the album cover of a bad eighties hair band.

And the whole “old school heroes show up and give new heroes a sorely deserved beating?” Boy, I sure loved that. Superman and the rest of his fellow stormtroopers went around beating the everliving snot out of anyone under 25…and THEN theu had the cast-iron testicles to tell to them that “violence is wrong?”

The part I love best is that the obvious irony of this position escaped Mark Waid and Ross.

You know what I’d love to see? A sort of reverse-KC future where the outlaw “take the law into their own hands” heroes of the pulps and Golden Age comics return, and beat the everliving snot out of their undeserving successors: the duly deputized, neutered heroes of the early Silver Age that walk arm-in-arm with the establishment. The guys that traded self-respect for a deputization badge.

God, that would be the shortest battle in history. In a fight with ERB’s genius superwarrior Tarzan, 1950s-1960s Batman would last about as long as Ann Coulter in a steel cage match with Queen Latifah.

Also...was the German hero named Von Bach? An obvious reference to Moorcock's VON BEK. His big role in the story is to break out of the gulag and kill his jailer Captain Comet, just like Ulrich von Bek broke out of the concentration camp in THE DREAMTHIEF'S DAUGHTER and killed the Nazis that tortured him.

Somehow, this makes the morally bankrupt position of Superman in this story all the more apparent. The Von Bek bloodline were agents of Chaos against a corrupt, warped Law, from the French Revolution to Nazi Germany.

Way to go, Waid: you actually got me rooting AGAINST my hero Superman.

DO YOU THE DEVIL'S WORK, MARK WAID! DO YOU THE DEVIL'S WORK!

On this, at least, we agree.  Pretty underwhelming brand-new, and worse as time goes by.  I think your "Titanic" analogy is much better applied to this series than to A-SS.


You lost me there.  I happen to have married a Norwegian girl and she's always been an outgoing, funny, sweet ray of sunshine to my crusty curmudgeon.  Then again, if she were dating you, she might've had a hard time keeping that sunshine radiating, sure enough.  :D :D