Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Random Super-Thoughts

What is it we're seeing when Superman is underwater? Can his Flying "work" below the water? Or are we just seeing him swim at superspeed?

Does alcohol work on Superman (I ask in the theoretical, since it's our milk-drinking hero is too wholesome for that)? One would think not; it might quickly be metabolized by his superpowerful system.

Superman wears no gloves. Has it ever been explained why he leaves no fingerprints?


Superman's Lesser-Used Superpowers

There are several powers that Superman is not quite as known for using.

Super-Aim
I can only recall a few occasions of Superman using his Super-Aim; one of them was in a Lois Lane story where he took the identity of a dart-thrower temporarily. During the Legion's battle against the Sun-Eater, Superman managed to throw capsules containing messages for help to distant worlds using his Super-Aim. Is it possibly a manifestation of his super-brain, which can calculate arcs and trajectories instantly, combined with his impeccable vision, or is some hand-eye coordination power on its own?

Superman's Night-Vision
Superman has been stated on many occasions as being able to see in total darkness. Here's my question: what's the nature of this power? I'm guessing it's kind of based on his ability to see into the spectrum, which means it might have interesting limitations; for instance, as there is no ultraviolet light in caves or deep below the earth, it may not work there. If he's underwater, perhaps he does like Namor and switches his vision to the blue-green portion of the spectrum to see more clearly.

Superman's Alien Nature

The Martian Manhunter is more clearly "alien" than Superman is, having four hearts, nine senses, and his handsome beetle brow (which has gotten larger and larger as the decades have worn on, like Superman's S-shield). But here's a question: what are some ways that Superman differs from human beings physically (apart from the obvious, his amazing powers)? I know that Superman's blood type is identical or analagous to all four types, for example.

Since his flying comes from an apparant ability to control gravity, I'd say yes  he does fly underwater, but he could swim at superspeed. I wouldn't think alcohol would work on him at all due to, like you said, an ultrafast metabolism not to mention superior organ filtering and just plain old ultra cellular hardiness.

I've often thought he has a sanitized metabolism, and doesn't release oils, no oils means no fingerprints. And at least partially we release oils to protect our non invulnerable hides, Superman doesn't have this problem. Also he could use his super bodily control to flatten out his finger tips maybe.

I'd say you hit the nail on the head, although coordination comes from the cerebellum so a super cerebellum would allow super coordination and super accuracy. This is part of the reason I claim he's at least as agile as Spidey.

In the old comics, it talks about how he sees in the dark with RADAR vision, which real world techies have actually used to create a haphazard form of "X-Ray vision". However infrared radiation is everywhere, so if he could see IR, he'd be just fine no matter how dark it was.

This may make sense, except I've seen Superman sweat on several occasions. Perhaps it was artistic license to show that Superman is straining the limits of his powers.

I think your super-body control theory is a good one that would work, if not for the fact that fingertips are necessary to properly grip things, and Superman would NOT want to have butterfingers with some of the great things that he carries.

Perhaps Superman leaves no fingerprints because his skin cells do not "die," as he is invulnerable, which has interesting permutations; for one thing, they wouldn't need to dust the Fortress of Solitude too often, since most "dust" is actually dead skin cells.

Alternatively, maybe Superman does have "gloves" on, except they are totally transparent to the point of invisibility, sort of like the Atom's costume when he is fully grown (and he may have in fact gotten the idea from his buddy Ray Palmer).

Here's a seldom used Superman superpower that I just remembered:

Superman's Super-Touch
I recall on one occasion Superman was able to get the jist of a phone conversation just by holding his thumb and forefinger on the line. I think in the Golden Age issues he could also distinguish metals by touch as well.

Here's another, much more kiddie question and perhaps one that I *really* don't need an answer to that badly, raised by RedSon's super-question: does Superman "need" to go to the bathroom at all? He has a digestive system, and it has been shown that he CAN eat (as Ms. Lane asked in the movie), although like a plant, the suggestion is that most of his energy comes from the Sun, and so eating and drinking are not necessary for him. It may be the case that Superman does not have to use the Super Men's Room, for the same reason he probably can't be affected by alcohol: his super-metabolism uses every single piece of energy taken from food without waste; the mutant Quicksilver, whose superspeed is fueled by metabolic sources, has been suggested to have a similar trait, getting everything from food without any waste. Also, in all the plans of the Fortress of Solitude, we've never seen room for facilities - though it is likely Superman may have some installed for the comfort of his guests (possibly connected to the disintigration pit).



That makes perfect sense if his nightsight powers are based on Infrared; for one thing, on one occasion when he uses his Infrared Vision to see in total darkness, ADVENTURE COMICS #354 ("The ADULT Legion!") we see his eyes glow red slightly in pitch blackness. Although this implies a few weaknesses to IR too: it may not work in situations of extreme heat, for example.

Kirby in JIMMY OLSEN had Superman do a few other things with his Heat-Vision that were truly interesting: for instance, he could track a car by the heat of its engine leaving a trail, which was still visible to him even though the car had been turned off.

Superman's darkness vision can't possibly be based on detection of radar sources; for one thing, he could not be able to determine anything less than 20-30 feet in height (as pointed out by Wolverton's SCIENCE OF SUPERMAN).



Hmmm, this makes sense, though I don't know neurology. Any real doctors or people knowledgeable in medicine or brain science want to comment?

Though I wouldn't know about Superman being more agile than Spider-Man; perhaps in terms of raw coordination and agility, with the advantage even going to Superman, who can think and process information at vast speeds. But I understand that Spider-Man's ability to avoid obstacles comes from his "Spider Sense" giving him precognition about where an attack will hit; consequently, he is faster because he knows where an attack will hit before it is even made.

If Superman has a Super-Brain, it would stand to reason other portions of his brain would also function accurately, such as the portion related to eye-hand coordination giving him super-aim. I wonder, however, how differently Superman's brain would look if we were to examine it. Is Superman's Super-Intelligence a superpower on the level of Super-Strength or Heat-Vision, or is it due to his Kryptonian nature as a member of a mentally superior race (and from a family known for inhereted mental prowess even there)?

If it is a "superpower," how would his brain be different or work differently under a red sun and a yellow sun?

Superman (in the silver-bronze-age at least) does not sweat.  Nor does he need to eat, drink, breathe, or sleep.  He does need to dream however.  He does have fingerprints, & does not wear gloves.  There were times when he did leave fingerprints behind.  Usually he does does not leave prints, because he does not sweat.  When he does leave prints, it's because of his super-strength.  


     His super-mental abilities ( memory, intelligence, etc.) are super powers.  His super-intelligence/genius makes him "more intelligent than an army of Einsteins".  When his powers are deactivated his intellect is at "ordinaray human genius" level.  Basically he is as intelligent as one to three Einsteins.  I tend to see Jor-El (on krypton) as equal to William James Sidis, Albert Einstein, or Thomas Alva Edison.

Why would he need to worry about this with his gravity controlling powers? PostC Superboy sticks to stuff using his Tactile TK/Gravity Control. ;)

This has actually been suggested by a few folks, as his hair and nails don't grow either.

PostC, his digestive tract converts matter into pure energy, allowing no waste and much fuel. PreC I imagine probably would have used the same reasoning if they had thought about it.

Most heat that extreme would present itself in other visible ways, with his other visual powers it wouldn't be much of a weakness.

Like I said, there's been a device built that does this without objects having to be so big. CK pointed out an article about it to me but I can't seem to find it again.

I actually wrote an essay on Spider-Man's powers that pseudo-scientifically covers spidey-sense without the aid of psionics if you're interested. And interestingly enough, Superman has a "super instinct" that mimics certain effects of spider-sense, plus with his superior strength, speed, reflexes, and gravitationally adapted tissues, he'd be every bit as agile as spidey IMHO, if not moreso.

I just realized that Superman wearing transparent gloves theory would not work, because on many occasions Superman has been shown to use his fingernail to slice things, like Sheet Metal on submarines and his Super-Diary that he inscribed in Kryptonese. He could not use his thumbnail through indestructible, invisible gloves.



Where was this stated? Just curious.

If this is definitive, then apparently the writers were not consistent with this, as there are stories that conflict with that. I can recall many occasions where Superman is visibly sweating: for instance, in SHOWCASE #9 (1957) "The Girl in Superman's Past" which had the return of Lana: Superman, as Clark Kent had droplets on his head to show his extreme worry about Lois and Lana meeting and making mischief (...jeez, that would get ME sweating too!).

Perhaps this behavior can be ascribed to the fact Superman is in his "Clark Kent" identity and Clark would need to sweat on hot occasions as a part of his "disguise." But that does not explain why Superman was sweating in that particular instance - it would break character if he has "Superman" worries (like Lois and Lana) impugn on Clark Kent's facade.

I can also recall (without consulting my comics collection) other occasions where Superman strains his powers to the utmost and there is sweat upon his brow from this (for example, in the Jim Shooter-penned SUPERMAN/SPIDERMAN crossover where he had to disable Dr. Doom's device - which arguably is not really "Superman" as he lives in a merged DC/MARVEL Earth, but he did everything Superman could and would do, making it nonetheless insightful). Like I said, maybe this is artistic license used to show strain.


 
Well...yeah.  :D

The notion of Superman not getting tired is an interesting one; if he has a constant stream of energy from a Yellow Sun. Though one wonders why he does not develop fatigue poisons that impair his function after a little while.



Where was this stated, and what was the context of it? I'd be interested in knowing. Also, does it provide an explanation for why Superman does not normally leave fingerprints behind, at least if he has them?



Ahhhh, I see. So his brain (possibly because of heredity, partially because of Superman's own self-improvement) is extraordinarily well developed, however under the Yellow Sun something extraordinary happens to it.

One possible thing (one I'm sure that the Superman stories have been fairly inconstant about) is the idea if Superman has far greater creative potential than ordinary humans - after all, having a "Super-Brain" means more than just doing math really, really fast; there's a whole other hemisphere to it too. Is Superman "Super-Creative" as well as "Super-Intelligent?" Superman's resourcefulness and cleverness fueled by "outside the box thinking" supports this in a circumstantial way. Superman has indulged in creative hobbies like painting, for example, but this is not entirely support for this. Could Superman write a poem greater than any earth poem? Clark Kent has a "punchy prose style," but he is not winning awards for it - then again, Clark Kent's literary sufficiency may just be a part of his disguise; it wouldn't do to have Clark win the Pulitzer.



Sure - look at all the stuff Jor-El invented.



I am interested in reading it, actually. Peter David's "static electricity" wall clinging was an interesting idea, but it...just wasn't Spider-Man. Spider-Man as a human electrical battery? I can't see it. I'd like to see someone else try another approach to that. Although Spider-Sense was clearly some sort of future-predicting power, because it could in fact, predict the future on some occasions.

What exactly IS Superman's Super-Instinct?

Superman not sweating is something that was mentioned in the comics numerous times prior to 1986.  It was not said that he couldn't sweat, just that almost all the time he didn't sweat.  Emotional stress/worry would probably make him sweat on rare occasions.  In the second Superman/Spiderman crossover, Dr. Doom's device was a nuclear fusion reacter.  It was almost an artificial red-sun.  Supes was sweating because the reacter was weakening his invulnerability.


   The times Superman left fingerprints were mostly when he was Superboy.  As i said when he does leave prints it's because of his super-strength.  It's when he presses on an object a little too much.  Kind of like you or me pressing our hands on wet cement.  


    In the silver-broze-age Superman learned kryptonian science & technology by studying (reverse engineering) any kryptonian artifacts that he found.  Like Kru-El's cache of forbidden weapons. Just think Luthor's intellect is greater than Superman's super-intelligence.  Many if not most of the prisoners in the Phantom Zone are scientists.  I imagine them almost being Lex's fan club.   Come to think about it maybe this is one reason why Superman almost never used his super-hypnosis power.  And why he seemed to downplay the full potential of that power.  The Zoners have all of Superman's powers whenever they escape from the zone.  Whenever he used he powers he was potentially training any & all phantom zone prisoners in how to use those powers.

This very site describes super instinct. "In September 1947, Superman is described as having a super-instinct that alerts him to the fact that someone is watching him." Spidey does this a lot. As for my essay, which anyone moderating will have to excuse due to it's sheer off topicness because this is a Superman board afterall, here it is in its second draft:

Building A Spider-Man
By RedSunOfKrypton

This is an essay I'm writing (or I wrote if you're reading this after I'm finished) about my theories regarding how being bitten by a spider would turn a man into a Spider-Man. Within it you'll find all kinds of my insanity no doubt, and probably will be inspired to ask questions like "Does this guy have a life?". While I do, I just happen to love science and sci-fi and combining the two is just ducky for me. So without further stalling to make this essay seem longer (unless you just wanna sit there for a few minutes and hum the Spidey theme to yourself over and over to get in the mood), here it is.

The Biting

The transgenesis that occured when Peter Parker was bitten by that spider is, well, so improbable that it would probably never happen, even if you used a billion irradiated spiders on a billion skinny white nerds, all you'd end up with is a huge drop in kleenex sales as they'd probably all die. Assuming however that it did work, here is how I surmise it would slap his genetic code into making his powers work in a real world scenario using proven and theoretical science.

Spider Strength

Firstly, his strength. Spider-Man is strong, hella strong. Most official sources cite him as being able to lift 10 tons, although unofficial sources and some demonstrations in the comics have him go as high as 30 on occasion. Now how most people use pseudo science to classify his strength is that he has the proportionate strength of a spider, this is wrong. Spiders (and other arthropods) are all "super" strong proportionately because of the law of cubic proportion, this law is also their undoing if they are ever to become human sized (or bigger, I'm open minded). Y'see when something gets proportionately bigger, it doesn't just get 10 times taller and 10 times wider for example, it also gets 10 times deeper thanks to our living in 3 dimensions. For a good and simple example of this go here:

http://www.ftexploring.com/think/superbugs_p2.html

The bigger something gets the more its weight outdoes its strength, ergo by the time it got to be as big as a human the spider would be no stronger than a human. Not to mention that spiders have generally simple hydraulic muslces, which would require a total reformatting of Pete's muscle structure that would probably kill him, so that's out. So where do we look to the origins of Spidey's strength? The strength is in the webs.

Spider webbing is a proteinaceous (read: it's made of protein) fibre, some types of which are stronger than steel. Human muscles are also proteinaceous fibres so, if by chance the rewriting of Parker's DNA led to his already present muscle protein structure being rewritten to be more like spider webbing, his puny human muscles could maintain their puniness while gaining the titanic strength of Spider-Man.

Spider Speed

The next thing we're going to look at is speed. Speed is directly related to the strength of muscle. We can say that in as good a shape as he's in, a powerless Spidey can probably bench a fair bit more than his own 165 lb weight, so let's say he could bench 200 lbs without his powers. This means that his powers make him 100 times stronger. And to quote a friend "Increasing the energy/strength available increases the speed by the square root of that figure." Therefore his powers would only make him 10 times faster. Which given even the average for his physical accuity, puts him at approximately 100mph for short sprints.

Spider Reflexes

The OHTMU cites Spidey as having reflexes 15 times faster than normal folks, Tom Defalco says 40 times in his book Spider-Man: The Ultimate Guide. I've seen both quoted in numerous other sources, but I'll go with 40 times as I think it works best with Spidey and is the most accurate. There are a number of ways to have a higher nerve conduction velocity, more efficient myelination for example, but it seems to me that the most likely explanation, as pointed out to me, is that his sheer energy reserves make this possible. Spider-Man's physiological efficiency was enhanced many fold, it surmises that the enhancement would go down to metabolic intracellular processes. This would make him at least 40 times faster with regards to his reflexes.

Spider Agility

Agility is not so much an attribute as it is a combination of attributes, many of which Spider-Man has at vast levels. His super strength and speed allow him to do the movements necessary. The fact that his "web based" tissues would have much higher elasticity despite their strength would give him amazing flexibility. His super human reflexes would help him adapt to any changing environment with vast rapidity. They would also allow him to find equilibrium almost instantly in any given situation. This enhanced nervous efficiency could also probably be applied to his cerebellum, allowing him super human co-ordination and aiding his balance. Also an increase in proprioreceptors and an increase in their sensitivity would aid his co-ordination and balance even moreso. All these things combined would give our hero Spider Agility.

Spider Toughness

Spider-Man's a tough guy. He'd haveta be to withstand the force of his own strength. Fortunately the his web like tissues are very tough too, especially when they're woven into the meshes of the human body. This would give him a great deal of shock absorbing capability and general resilience.

Enhanced Health

The sheer hardiness and efficiency of Spider-Man's body explains his enhanced health, he tends to heal really fast (though not as fast as Wolverine), and he's seemingly resilient to poison and disease. His aging seems slightly retarded as well, as in the MC2 universe, even after he's passed middle age he's still able to fight crime and websling, although he's officially retired from it.

Wallcrawling

Spider-Man sticks to stuff, it's one of his staples. Spiders stick by using tiny hairs on their feet, except they can't stick to smooth surfaces. Geckos stick using much tinier hairs and they can stick to smooth surfaces with huge ammounts of force, recent advances using carbon nanotubes have increased gecko sticky force by 200 fold. I think Spidey's stickiness works combining these 2 principles. In the movie, Spider-Man sticks to things using retractable hairs on his hands and feet, I propose the same thing, only that the hairs retract hydraulically in a similar manner to how spider legs work. Now the ends of these retractable setae could be covered with the spatulas that gecko setae are covered in and allow Spidey to stick to anything with vast force. This could be done along the carbon nanotube lines to allow even greater adhesiveness.

Spider Sense

Here's the fun part, and the part that actually inspired me to write this whole thing: Spidey sense, with scientific theories to back it up. "No brainer" you say, "It's psionic". Now I like psionics, I think it's a cool concept, but I don't like using it to explain the science of my favorite superheroes, especially when it's not needed. With that said, the secrets of spidey sense lie within 3 factors, Electo/Magnetoreception, extreme sensitivity to atmospheric vibrations, and super fast reflexes.

Recently scientists are working on a sensor that uses ambient energy to see through objects, this principle is the mainstay for how I propose spider sense works. Suppose Parker's entire dermis acted as one of these sensors, almost like omni-directional x-ray vision. Now this would be too much info for the normal human conciousness to process, so you leave it to the subconcious to do the work and only alert the concious mind to things of importance.

Spider-Man can't be snuck up on because of the omni-directional "sight" of his sense, it always alerts him which direction danger comes from.

Weapons (Guns, knives, brass knuckles etc.) have their own distinct reflective signatures from ambiant energy due to their shapes and compositions, so spider sense would pick them up within range and warn Spidey, whether they were hidden or not.

Research also shows that everyone has their own unique biochemically generated electromagnetic aura; if the subconcious used spider sense to see the EM aura of a super villain in costume and remembered it, and then happened to see the same aura surrounding a civillian, it would warn Spidey that the civvie was the villain out of costume. Most likely by giving him a bad feeling about that person. This also allows Parker to spot people (villains) in disguise. It also allows him to sense people in hiding.

Spider sense also acts as radar due to its omni-directional nature, allowing Spider-Man to sense his surroundings even when he's blinded or in total darkness, because there's always some form of radiation present.

Spider sense warns Spidey if he's about to step on a creaky floorboard when he's trying to be quiet. This works because his subconcious knows he doesn't want to make noise and is scanning for any way he might, this includes sensing if the structural integrity of the board he's about to step on isn't as sound as the one he just quietly stepped on.

Spidey knows when he's being watched too, so he doesn't accidently change in front of someone he doesn't want to know his secret. With spider sense constantly "x-ray viewing" in all directions, it knows when he's being looked at because it can see the looker and warns him accordingly. This same reason is how he knows he's being aimed at with a weapon, his sense is literally "looking down the barrel".

Combining its sensitivity and penetrating abilities, with the subconcious mind's problem solving skills it can sense and show him the way out of any mazes he might find himself in.

When disarming a bomb, his subconcious using his spider sense scans the entire design of the bomb, including which wires current is flowing through and using Parker's affinity for science, figures out which wires to cut, then alerts him accordingly.

Its omni x-raying abilities also warn him of what he would consider a potential danger even on the other side of a wall or door.

Dr. Doom was once able to send Peter a message over his spider sense, no doubt broadcasting on a frequency his spidey sense would "see" and then his subconcious would let him hear knowing that is what he wanted conciously.

This also explains his spider tracers, he has them emit a frequency he knows will draw the attention of his spider sense.

It's highly likely that astral projections cause disturbances in surounding EM fields and deep down Spidey would want to know if he was being looked at by someone astrally so his sense alerts him when Dr. Strange drops by.

Spider-Man once sensed the Young God Calculus while Calculus was hiding in a phase shift invisibility field, no doubt because of the slight EM distortions the field created.

Spidey sense once allowed him to read a faint text imprint that was too faint to see normally, probably because even faded ink is still visible in spectra outside visible light, this is how archaeologists read old faded documents that have long since faded.

When moving through an area, residue of your unique EM field is no doubt left behind briefly, this could be how Spidey tracked Kraven through Central Park.

His spider sense is also able to alert him to the hostile attitudes of people due to the changes in EM aura that occur with changes in emotional states.

A supreme dermal sensitivity to vibrations would only aid the EM aspect, allowing movement to be felt from quite a distance. This combined with his ultrafast reflexes kicking in instinctively, makes his spider sense possible without hailing psionics.

Organic Webbing

This I put in for the sake of completedness as comic Spidey now has organic webshooters. Sphincter like sacks that produce the web fluid could form on Spider-Man's wrists. The super strong sphincter muscles could propel the fluid at high speeds. I imagine the fluid comes out very tiny, but somehow absorbs a lot of air causing it to expand to the size and lengths we see and it uses that "oxydizing" effect to increase its strength (possibly by causing the "long chain polymer knitting" the comics claim). That way, he could have "a lot of it" without really having to produce a lot of it. It also could be that the compound uses carbon out of airborn carbon dioxide to knit itself into webs, this would allow for vast strength as someone once pointed out to me. As to the dissolving of the webs after a half hour or so, it could be that the compound continues to absorb elements from the air after forming, and eventually gets to the point of super saturation and keeps absorbing till it crumbles, all in a process that takes about a half hour.

Summary

Well there you have it, my essay on the science of Spider-Man. I hope you enjoyed reading it as much as I enjoyed writing it.

Additional Credits and Inspirations

CaptainKal
Entropy
-------------
Also, not because I don't believe you, I'm just wondering, when did Spider-Sense predict the future? I was sure I had all its feats covered. :)

AHHH, okay, I see - periods of extreme worry cause the stress instinct to kick in, creating sweat. But he doesn't normally sweat (what's a drop in degree here or there when you're on THE SUN?). That's consistent with what we've seen, so I guess we're both right.



This makes sense. Superboy, inexperienced in using his powers, probably would do this. Although conceivably he might have something in the Clark Kent identity to make sure Clark Kent and Superboy have different fingerprints, like for instance, press-on transparent plastic "fake" fingerprints over the fingers, sort of like in that James Bond movie.



There was one wonderful comic (with Curt Swan art, no less), SUPERBOY: THE COMIC BOOK, made as a more or less adaptation of the television series. It is also, to my knowledge, the only occasion that Curt Swan drew the movie's "Crystal Krypton." One of the plots is that Luthor and Superboy team up to enter the Phantom Zone; Superboy to regain his powers, and Luthor to rob the long extinct technological secrets of Krypton.

Perhaps Luthor's superiority in technology compared to contemporary science (we've got to be YEARS away from a Weather Sattelite Doomsday Device) might be due to some early contact with Kryptonian science; Mark Waid's BIRTHRIGHT explored that idea well.



Interesting. I'm very surprised Faora doesn't use Super-Hypnotism that often - it fills her need to dominate others totally (especially men). If she hasn't used it (and I don't have all of her appearances, but I haven't seen her use Super-Hypnotism) then it's a pretty good guess that she doesn't know how to use it, because if she did, she most certainly would use it.

Many of these questions are answered and addressed in a single story from the Sliver Age:

Superman No. 139 August 1960, "The Untold Story of Red Kryptonite!"

This tale is also reprinted in

Superman Annual No. 8 Winter 1964
Superman From the Thirties to the Seventies

Any sufficiently advanced x-ray vision is indistinguishable from spider-sense.

Ha ha ha ha ha.  :D

Good piece of speculative work, RedSun - some of the stuff was particularly well thought out. Like for example, the idea that Spider-Man's biological webbing is something that expands to become many times larger on contact with air so that it requires very little volume to store; if Spider-Man used his own body weight to create webbing, it would quickly cause him to lose weight very nastily.

Doctor Doom used a similar device as this: molecules that expanded on contact with air, so that with a tiny device on his armor he could chuck giant boulders at enemies. Doctor Doom fought Spider-Man in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #6; the first use of his atom-chucking device was in a Roy Thomas/Wally Wood MARVEL SUPER-HEROES issue, later reused in SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP, which was considerably after this encounter. Perhaps Doctor Doom learned how to build this device by studying the molecular structure of Spider-Man's webs?

The idea that Spider-Man might use his webs also as a type of hook structure to keep his muscles together at a cellular level is an intriguing one that accounts for his superstrength and superspeed. One hole that someone might find in it, though, is that it implies a certain degree of toughness on Spider-Man's part, possibly a limited invulnerability, which Spider-Man does not possess. This may not necessarily be true.

Kevlar, as I understand it, is a woven material meant to deflect bullets and is the makeup of bulletproof vests. Kevlar can deflect bullets against a wearer. However, Kevlar, as it is woven, can be torn by knife attacks. Furthermore, as I understand it, Kevlar is very much a single use item; it can stop a bullet, but it would not be wise to continue wearing Kevlar after that point, as the fibers are torn and weak. The similarities to Spider-Man's web-filamented muscles suggest themselves.

The idea of Spider-Man's spider-sense being a type of electromagnetic reception through the entire epidermis is the most interesting idea in the paper. It accounts for the varying, often nebulous uses that Spider-Sense has been put to.

In other words, a basic X-Ray Vision and radar that is received through the skin.

I know the fingerprint thing was covered in a number of stories.  Oddly enough, it wasn't just things he touched.  As mentioned, it mainly had to do with things he gripped with his super strength.  Clark obviously left a lot of fingerprints.  Comparing them to Superman would be a thing Lois would want to do, but I think in the various stories covered he outsmarted her.
There were a lot of powers which were rarely mentioned, like his hypnosis or his infra-red vision.  I think his intelligence was a combination of heredity (being Jor-El's son) and that his brain was also enhanced like his other physical abilities.  
I do remember that John Byrne mentioned how Superman made a conscious effort to blur his features whenever he knew a camera was on him, kind of like Jay Garrick did as the original Flash.  Now I would think this would be a tipoff to the fact that he was someone else in real life, but in the Byrne era no one was supposed to think he had another life.  Bryne then screwed this up himself when he had Superman tell Lois that he was raised as a "brother" to Clark by the Kents.

Like all of Byrne's concepts (Namor being "crazy" instead of an honorable man with a legitimate grievance, the Scarlet Witch being the center of the Marvel Universe, Galactus being a "force of nature" instead of a character with a personality, the Metal Men not "really" being made of the metal that THEY'RE NAMED AFTER AND HAVE ALL THE PROPERTIES OF - my God, too many to possibly list), this is one that I just never, ever bought.

It makes sense that the Jay Garrick Flash's face is too blurry to recognize; he's a hyperactive guy whose main gimmick is superspeed and moves at superspeed all of the time, so it's perfectly in character that his face would be a little blurry. Nobody could ever question that.

But Superman?

Someone ought to put a panel in a comic somewhere where somebody like Jimmy Olsen goes up to him.

"Superman, all of us in the Planet have just been wondering all this time...how come your face is so...blurry? I mean, nobody has ever wanted to say anything, but man, caffeine is not your friend."

Why is Superman's face not drawn blurry or at least unclear? Why is it supposedly nobody knows Superman has a secret identity, but his face is blurred all the time so the possibility is open? Why is it people don't wonder if Superman is having an epileptic seizure? Why is it nobody in the history of ever has ever commented on this fact? When Superman is drained by the Parasite or Kryptonite, does his face blur more slowly the more power he loses or something?

And finally, the greatest evidence I can possibly think of for Superman's face not being blurry is that when he met Spider-Man in company crossovers, Spidey didn't nickname Supes " 'Ol Blurface."  :D

It got screwed up way before that, with Lex Luthor rejecting the notion that Superman was Clark Kent in Superman #2.  


Hey, that's one I rather liked.  Given the wildly inconsistent ways Namor had been depicted, across many magazines, dating back to 1939, it wasn't a bad fix.  I don't think that everything that Byrne did was horrible, which on this board is probably heretical.

I don't like to use terms like "all" or "never." Most of the time because they don't apply. Even writers that I despise have written and done at least one thing I like that was worth reading: Ron Marz wrote a wonderful Superman Elseworlds where Superman was raised by the Guardians and became a Green Lantern; the idea was not the most original in the world but the joyfulness of the execution was. Among other things, it featured Hal Jordan battling Sinestro, with Jordan creating a green gorilla and Sinestro creating a yellow octopus with a brain in a jar to wrestle each other. Mark Waid's JLA: YEAR ONE was a very worthy, detail-rich miniseries. Frank Miller's DAREDEVIL was absolutely wonderful the first few years until the Hand showed up. And best of all, Jim Owlsley, the infamous weasel that wrote the abysmal, destructive EMERALD DAWN, to my great surprise and delight, is one and the same man with "Christopher Priest," who wrote BLACK PANTHER, the greatest comic of the 1990s besides Kurt Busiek's AVENGERS and Gaiman's SANDMAN.

Every terrible writer I slam has done at least one story that was worthwhile.

There are three exceptions to this rule.

Two of them are Chuck Austen and Warren Ellis (and at least Warren can be funny sometimes).

The other is John Byrne.



It was a terrible fix, for the reason that Namor is made an interesting, complicated villain because he isn't in the wrong. His motivations are complicated, based on honor and pride, and a legitimate, undismissable complaint with humanity: our exploitation of the seas to dump garbage, pollution, and as a place to hold our wars. Namor was conflicted, he was brash and proud. He is truly one of the five greatest villains in comic book history.

Byrne's retcon that Namor had just been "crazy" all along with a blood disease removes the one thing that makes Namor effective: sympathy. Namor is a villain because of his heroic qualities, ironically. If Namor was not responsible for his actions, the thing that makes him a compelling foe, that his point of view is not an invalid one, is eliminated.

Yes, Namor has been characterized inconstantly by bad writers (though it should be noted that those that wrote him the longest: Stan Lee, Thomas, and Steve Englehart in SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP, gave him a fairly consistent characterization). But this abysmal Byrne concept is destructive to the character because it makes his grudges and pride, the very things that DEFINE Namor - to be something alien to who he is.

There are ways to incorporate bad characterization into a character by looking at all the pieces and seeing what works. Look for instance, at Kurt Busiek's examination of the actions of Wonder Man in his AVENGERS run; he placed Simon's out of character selfishness and ego into a context that made his actions make sense.

... he only thinks he is.

Did he do anything good?

Rog 2000 was fun.  But I can't think of anything else worth mentioning.

:s:

Oh yes, a robot who eats chicken, now I can see what DC and Marvel saw in Bryne way back when, he is so full of ideas... none good:

(http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/r/rog20004.jpg)

I really like Ma and Pa Kent being alive in the Superman era.  While that's not especially original on Byrne's part, it had made for some good stories.

Byrne did a spoof of his own Superman stuff for Marvel's What The...? which I thought was actually pretty good. (The spoof, I mean.)

Remember who you're talking to. You can't ban him unless you get him to say his name backwards. Even then, it's only for three months.

Would this be a good time to mention that ROG-2000 is Axel Pressbutton: the Psychotic Cyborg from the waist down and Ultron from the waist up?





What's irksome about Ma and Pa Kent being alive is not that they were kept alive, but the REASON they were kept alive: to allow Superman to completely divorce himself from the disaster of Krypton, a disaster that it should be added, that is one of the saddest and most poignant events in comics which is the primary reason Superman, despite all his powers, is sympathetic. With the Kents alive as his "real" parents, the sacrifice of Jor-El and Lara (again, one of the most heroic and tragic stories in comics and partly the motivation for Superman's heroism) can be diminished and ignored.

Previously in the Super-Mythos, everything had a reason, everything present in the Superman story served a purpose. With the Kents being alive, Superman's origin suddenly becomes an afterthought; any other origin could be substituted for Byrne's Superman and he'd be exactly the same character.

So, in conclusion, the survival of the Kents was irksome for two reasons:

1) They were intended to substitute the more captivating characters of Jor-El and Lara, which the Kents can never really do;

2) They were to function as "wise counsel" for Superman, which makes him look like a chump because he can't make decisions without asking Mommy and Daddy, and is also rather insulting to rural people, the perpetuation of the condescending "wise hayseed farmer" stereotype that talks in calf birth metaphors.

One of the few things I liked, at first, about the Byrning was keeping the Kents alive.  The idea of the greatest super-hero and possibly sentient in the universe still sometimes seeking the wise counsel of his elders was a great message to kids everywhere.  In a society which more often disrespected our elders both in reality and in all the media, here was a positive take on respecting them.

In hindsight, I realize that this would have been more appropriate had this been tried with another super-hero, not Superman.  The legendary, iconic nature of the solitary Last Son of Krypton precludes his seeking or needing to seek advice.  He solves the world's problems, not goes whining about it to someone else.

But just to be more thorough on this matter, Clark really doesn't go running to his parents all that often.  And when he does, he rarely gets more than moral support rather than any actual insights into what he needs to do.  In the end, Superman still makes the ultimate decision.  Note how he took the Kents' advice when it came to the Authority-copy, the Elite.

In keeping with respecting elders, that's the thing that made me despise Cadmus Superboy.  At first, he was my favourite Superman, but that was when he possibly was the real Steel Deal come back to life.  After Kal-El truly revived, Kon-El became what he truly was: A second-rate wannabe.  Not only that, but he was an adolescent fantasy come true.  He got to  go adventuring, save the world/universe, be a hero, be considered important by everyone else -- and had no parental supervision nor authorities he truly answered to.  It did my heart good when Superman hauled him off to live with the Kents at the end of his own series.  While the Kents don't work for Superman, they certainly do for Superboy -- either Pre or Post Crisis, take your pick. (FYI, I've complained about this before when I used to frequent Alvaro's and it is an odd coincidence that many of my ideas eventually found their way into the books.  In this case, it was my complaints about Kon lacking parental supervision.)

IMHO

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Well, first, the Sun cannot truly be his power source.  Both implied by the magnitude of his feats plus explicitly stated in various books, he possesses far more power than a single yellow star.  He's blasted a copy of Hal/GL with heat vision on the order of a hundred suns.  He's smashed an Intergang robot while feeling the power of a million suns swell up in his body (and not the first time according to that story).

Second, fatigue poisons only develop when one incurs an oxygen debt from using glucose/energy stores up faster than we can take in oxygen to process it completely into carbon dioxide and water.  Assuming his body is using Kryptonian matter analogues of these substances, he would only exert himself at these levels when facing someone of Kryptonian power-levels.  Also, an aspect of his super-metabolism, invulnerability, and perhaps super-speed is that should he develop such toxins, he would metabolize them far faster than we would so the recovery period would be hardly noticeable to us should it ever happen to him -- which should be extremely rarely if at all.

Think "Fantastic Voyage", the Isaac Asimov novel, not the movie when it comes to Kandor.  The atoms and molecules were reduced in size in an extradimensional sense not compressed or proportionally had atoms removed.  That way, Kandorian metabolisms would still function normally since everything would've been reduced proportionally.  That also explains why a special oxygen tank was needed for Kandor: They couldn't breathe our air since it would be like us trying to breathe air molecules the size of golf balls, so the tank probably had miniaturized oxygen inside instead.

According to Critical Condition, he has an eight-chambered heart, biomagnetic processing in his lungs, mass-energy conversion in his digestive tract (and by extension in his cells, too), and heat vision organelles, at the very least.  According to a JLA story, the Atom found a denser than normal cellular structure.  These must be later manifestations of a solar-empowered body since the early Byrned Superman was virtually indistinguishable from a normal human down to the cellular level.  Also, Clark Kent in unpowered form is indistinguishable from a Terran human.  Ergo, the strange physiological characteristics shown in certain later stories probably reflect his powers acting on his body to 'evolve' it which disappears in his nonpowered state.  Think Ferro Lad/Colossus converting between flesh to metal form and back for an analogue here.

Pre Crisis, I don't think we had any evidence his body differed significantly from ours except for the fact of it being composed of Kryptonian atoms which became empowered in our environment.

That's because you have to get him to say it.

Unless you're trying to tell us that you and Byrne... nah, let's not even joke about that.

I assumed that statements like this are colorful hyperbole; Shakespeare once said a character hates another "with the heat of a thousand suns." Which does not mean they actually experience the temperature of a thousand G-type stars!

One possible instance that may contradict this assertion, Superboy was able to be overpowered by the Sun-Eater during the Legion story arc, because supposedly, "it has the power of hundreds of yellow suns!" And statements were made such as "even Superboy, who gets his power from a yellow sun, is like a GNAT to IT!"

However, this does raise an interesting question, which is, is it possible that Superman uses an alternate power source apart from earth's sun? If so, what sort of power would it be, and what evidence could be pointed to for this phenomenon?

As a personal aside, I generally don't like this sort of theory that implies that what we know about a superhero (e.g. Superman getting his powers from something OTHER than Earth's yellow sun) is totally incorrect. For instance, a friend of mine argued on one occasion that scientifically speaking, it is likely the Flash changes into some type of energy when he moves at superspeed, not unlike the Negative Man or Monica Rambeau. While this sounds interesting, the fact is, that's NOT how the Flash's powers have been demonstrated or explained as working. The Flash runs really fast; he doesn't turn himself into particles and back again.



Hmm, that makes sense if you assume Superman's inexhaustability is a threshold that is above human levels, instead of an "all or nothing" phenomenon (he either never gets tired or he does). Though Superman's super-metabolism is an interesting explanation for why fatigue never develops.

While it may be considered mere hyperbole, two factors tend to dismiss this.

One is that the text is speaking of a physical phenomenon instead of an emotional analogue.

The other is that it jibes quite nicely with his ability to shatter a planet.  FYI, it takes almost a million suns to blow-up the Earth, which our Man of Steel most assuredly could do.  Tossing the Earth around like he did to move it out of the way of the Parasite's laser-beam is on the order of a hundred galaxies (100 billion sun each).  Taking on supernovae and even reversing them as he's done on several occasions is similarly in the galaxy-class.  Blowing out stars, 'nuff said.

I did say the textual references are also supported by his actual feats.

WHAT?!? Please post reference for that little tidbit.

Here is a FAQ about our Sun:

Q: How many Earths can fit into the Sun?
A: About 1,000,000.

Q: How big is the Sun?
A: Enormous! It may look small in the sky, but that's because it is so far away. It's about 800,000 miles (more than 1 million kilometers) across more than 100 Earths could fit across the Sun's face. Some stars are hundreds of times wider than the Sun!

Q: How hot is the Sun?
A: Deep in the core, the temperature is an amazing 27 million degrees Fahrenheit (15 million degrees Celsius)! The surface of the Sun is almost 11,000 degrees Fahrenheit (6000 degrees Celsius). The Sun's outer atmosphere (corona) is about 2 million degrees Fahrenheit (1million degrees Celsius).

Q: How will our Sun end its days?
A: Our Sun will end its days by expanding to the size of Earth's orbit and puffing off its outer layers at that time we would call it a red giant star. Eventually, all that will remain is a tiny core (a white dwarf star) about the size of Earth. Earth will be burnt to a crisp, but this won't happen for about 5 BILLION years so don't start packing your bags for Alpha Centauri just yet!

I prefer the notion that the yellow sun reacts with the Kryptonian / Daxamite physique as a catalyst to release energy from an extradimensional, other source.  "More sun" might be better in some way as far as how much energy comes out the back end", but it's not as if energy comes _from_ the sun.  (Of course, there might be more to the stars than we know about as far as the energy they produce...)

I've always believed that Superman should NATURALLY be a genius, not because he has super-intelligence. I do feel that his ability to think and learn quickly and remember everything he sees or hears would enhance his cognitive abilities, though. Plus, he has a keen knowledge of not just Kryptonian technology, but the technology from many other planets (Thanagar, Rann, Colu, ect).

That's basically what I always saw "super-intelligence" as--I believed it was just a combination of total recall and super-speed.

As to Superman getting his power from another source and sunlight just acting as a catalyst, the comics have hinted this is so, and that the other source is in fact THE Source.

Hey, Super Monkey, this is a matter of straight astrophysics.

To actually blow-up the Earth means overcoming the Gravitational binding energy of the planet.  (The electromagnetic binding energies at this scale cancel out themselves so much that gravity is actually the more dominant, powerful force at this level.  Even so, EM binding energy to overcome is on the order of 65,066 sun-power seconds or 17.8 hours of its energy output.)

Gravitational binding energy in the Earth is given by the formula:

B = m**2*G/r
Where B is the binding energy in ergs
and m is the mass in grams
and G is the Gravitational Constant (6.672x10e-8Nm)
and r is the radius in centimeters.

Earth mass = 5.977 x 10e27 grams
Earth radius = 6.378 x 10e8 centimeters

Plug in the values and you get 3.73 x 10e39 ergs
which translates into 3.73 x 10e32 joules or watt/seconds.

The Sun emits 3.846 x 10e26 watts per second.

Divide the binding energy figure above by the Sun figure below and we get over 971,692 sun-power seconds -- or a bit shy of a million of them as I posted earlier.  That's the energy the Sun emits over a period of 11.25 days, FYI -- And Superman can easily generate this in less than a second.

It's like I was going to say on an older thread, just haven't got around to it.  The best writers actually know more about science and the real world than the mediocre ones.  Certainly Stanley Schmidt, editor of Analog magazine, subscribes to this, as does Jack London (author of Call of the Wild), Michael Crichton, Isaac Asimov, Larry Pournelle, and Ray Bradbury.

Some misguided people think writing is just about making stuff up and to heck with any kind of realistic grounding esp. in comics and SF.  The reality is the better writers actually are better educated than the ones trying to evade education by being writers.

Or to put it as the Dalai Lama puts it:
"Know what the rules are so you know how to break them properly."

Also, FYI, there's a reason it takes a supernova blast to blow-up a star.  The energy levels are galaxy-level which is what the grav binding energy for a star is.

:D

Just a few nitpicky corrections on this, which don't really affect the end conclusion.

1) The binding energy you listed is correct for a spherical shell, where all the mass is the same distance R from the center. The Earth, however, is (roughly) a solid sphere, where much of the mass is closer to the center. It turns out the energy is actually only three-fifths of what you listed. I won't post the calculation here -- contact me privately if you really want to see it.

2) Since you are (initially) using cgs units, you should use G=6.672x10^-8 cm3 g-1 s-2. Since your final answer is right (except for the three-fifths factor mentioned above) I think you did this right but wrote it down wrong.

3) A joule is a watt-second, not a watt per second. Likewise, the sun's total output will be measured in watts or joules per second, not watts per second.

I'll also point out that only a tiny fraction of the Sun's energy actually reaches the Earth. Even a smaller amount yet would reach Superman. So you are actually looking at something like one-septillionth of the Sun's total output that Supey would have to absorb.

Thanks for the corrections, Gary.  Much appreciated.

I was rushed.  I have back to back meetings and support issues today.  It's a wonder I had time to post at all.

I do miss more regular discussions.

As a further note, the Earth is a relatively small planet.  Superman could shatter planets in general which implies he's capable of this up the high end of the range which would be Krypton.  I've suggested in the past that Krypton was just shy of a brown dwarf star or 0.08 solar masses and had a radius about 1/4 that of our sun's.  Given those parameters, being able to shatter Krypton would take energy well into the supernova range or about 100 galaxies.  That does jibe with his ability to withstand supernovae and even reverse their explosions to turn them into black holes instead.

I was just thinking about this again, latex gloves effectively remove fingerprints and yet millions of people everyday the world over allow fingerprintless doctors to wield surgical instruments in delicate operations and butter fingers isn't a problem. Thoughts?

I like RedSun's super bodily control idea esp. since it jibes with another canon concept that his super-coordination let's him use completely different signatures when he's Clark Kent vs Superman.  It's not such a stretch that he could control his body down to the cellular level at least to alter how his fingerprints appear in his different identities.

I think someone else mentioned that his invulnerability might be another explanation.  I recall that Superman Jr. once stated his body didn't have a body odour due to being half-Kryptonian.  Those super-body oils might have a tendency not to rub off on anything the way ordinary human body oils would.  That would be because they would only do so under the intermolecular attractions of equivalent super/indestructible matter which our world is not made of, so they would tend to cling more to his super-body than a drinking glass or doorknob.  OTOH, if this were true, then Clark has the problem of explaining why his human self didn't leave fingerprints behind.  Also, we've seen him shed dead skin cells in a Chemo/Metal Men story, so he likely does leave fingerprint body oils if he can shed dead skins cells too.

But maybe that pesky aura could be invoked here since we've seen it's not a passive simple energy shield but very similar to a living membrane that selectively allows waste materials out and non-fatal matter, light, and other energies in; selectively manipulating the aura could be an out here.  Though we have evidence to the contrary that he's shown little interest in investigating said aura nor learning how to manipulate it.

I lean more towards RedSun's idea here.  And another supporting bit is how the Siegel Superman had such super-body control that he not only could control his heartbeat and breathing but he also could change his very appearance.  This might still be so on the small scale of fingerprints.

It must be remembered that gloveless super-heroes besides Superman would also have this problem.  But not many super-heroes go gloveless and those that do don't have a world hungry to figure out their secret IDs.

Should Superman have the power of super-touch?  On one hand, it makes logical sense given his other senses have been demonstrated to be 'super' (vision, hearing, and smell, at least, and taste by extension of smell).  OTOH, it seems on the surface not to jibe with his actual portrayals since it would seem to imply he'd be more likely to feel pain with such a power.

IMHO, he does have this power and this is how to resolve the seeming illogic of not being more pain sensitive.  Pain is the perception of damage to body tissues.  If the sensation is not accompanied by actual tissue damage then his super-perception of pain isn't triggered.  This must be so else his heightened vision and hearing would similarly make him more vulnerable to pain attacks through those senses, yet things like nukes don't blind or deafen him nor staring into the sun blinds him either.  Clearly, he's invulnerable to those forces so no tissue damage and thus no pain sensation results.  The same would apply to his super-touch and pain sensations there.

He might be able sense super-pain should he actually encounter something that could damage him.  But it must be noted that a certain degree of intention is implied in how Kryptonian powers manifest themselves.  He does not have super-hunger, super-weakness, or any other negative super-abilities.  His costume only has super-elastic properties when he wants it so, and on at least one occasion, his own body went super-elastic as opposed to being pulled apart (he was being sucked through a space warp and this body was being stretched out like the Elongated Man's).  Given that history and canon, he probably is not more sensitive to pain when damage does occur than we are, and this is reflected in the books.  A papercut wouldn't make him react like being gored by a bull.

I agree completely with this as I've always thought the same. It could also explain he PreC ability to detect electrical discharges as cited on this very site.

When did this happen?

Was his body simply being shown as being elastically warped due to the effects of the space warp?

One might suppose his body was reacting to the space-time warping itself when it stretched, except that none of the other matter sucked through exhibited that same stretching effect.  It all was otherwise broken up into chunks or otherwise not distorted.

I don't recall the exact story or issue, RedSun.  I'll have to get back to you.

Similarly, I'm overdue for a Superman/Green Lantern reference for Great Rao that I simply cannot find though I know I've read the book and reprint.