Superman Through the Ages! Forum

OK, this is the companion poll -

If you were in charge at DC, which origin would you decree as being canonical?  Which one do you personally prefer?

Pre crisis, natch

Absoloutly Silver\Bronze Age, with the Loeb Redux being a close second. Both stories are simple, and give a richly textured origin to Superman.   :D

I actually voted for the Loeb silver-age redux, because it incorporates the MOS origin.  As much as I personally dislike Byrne's origin, I think it makes sense to have the Loeb origin because it can include all Superman stories - from Golden to Iron age - everything happened.  Thus, nothing gets thrown out, no fans or ages are disavowed or insulted.

The traditionalist in me likes the classic Silver Age origin, but I voted for Birthright because it's just too much fun.  It pulls in some great stuff from the movie and from the Maggin-verse, both of which I've always loved.  And the costumes are fantastic.  :D

I'm a fan of the genius-level refinement of the Weisinger era origin(s).

The story was always retold slightly differently to explore some never-before realized subtlety.

Weisinger Silver Age Version is perfection in my opinion.

I had to pick Byrne's MOS
Its the one I grew up with.

Birthright, because it's a modern retelling of the classic origin, with no Byrne-like attempts to drastically change things. I especially like the way it incorporates the S-symbol into the mythos.

Birthright is good, but I miss the Pre-Crisis version. I miss  the Superboy/ Luthor fued, Luthor's purple suit, etc.

The Ceb-Man!

I loved the purple suit Luthor. The purple suit Luthor was the best Luthor :!:

It's a toss-up between Loeb's neo-Silver Age origin and BIRTHRIGHT for me. Loeb's version has General Zod as the reason that the Science Council wouldn't listen to Jor-El and -- via McGuinness -- visually, it's updated just enough to look "traditional" but without the corny bits (Jor-El always looked silly in red trunks). But BIRTHRIGHT has the "S" as the symbol of Krypton (not just the House of El, but all of Krypton) and has Lara playing a pro-active role in determining baby Kal-El's fate for the first time.

The latter two touches are overdue, I think, so BIRTHRIGHT gets the nod, but a combination of the two versions would be my ideal telling of Superman's beginnings.

My ideal origin would be this:

- Krypton is a loving, passionate world populated by equally passionate people.

- Krypton is a lively visual paradise.

- the S-shield is a Kryptonian symbol, and the Supersuit is based on Kryptonian fashion.

- Superman is born on Krypton the natural way, not as a test-tube fetus.

- Jor-El and Lara are loving, heroic, and noble people who anybody would be proud to say are their parents.

Beyond that, the exact look of the clothing, architecture, and technology is up for grabs. The Silver-Bronze Age/"R2K"/Birthright Kryptons are all great, but the animated version from Dini and Timm is probably may favorite of the them all. I think there's plenty of room for interpretation without tearing stuff down like Byrne did.

In total agreement, especially on the STAS Krypton and it's designs. I've always felt the thing with Brainiac was brilliant!

i prefer the silver-age origin.  jerry siegel was one of the writers from the mid-late 50s to the mid 60s.

I like Luthor in his convict grey myself and his ultra cool, super evil lair - who else would have statues of his heroes being folks like Al Capone and Genghis Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!!! :shock:

I picked the Silver Age origin because I think it was the most fun and provided so much material for stories.

I think CEO Luthor can be cool at least at first. The animated series pulled him off pretty well, though ideally after a certain point he needs to fall and become more along the lines of the classic supervillan Luthor.

I dig the powersuit myself.  Prolly because I grew up during the time of the Super Powers Collection.  I also dig the robotic design for Brainiac. Second only to the blue skinned animated series design for best version IMO. Still, if you want a way for Luthor to be able to take on Superman physically, the powersuit is a cool way to go I think.

Part of why I was excited at first about the R2K Krypton was that I enjoyed Ed McGuiness's take on that.  I know alot of people complain about it looking dated and all. But my thinking was that for Superman, a character born in the era that he was, it's a cool homage to his roots for the planet on which he is *born* to be this kind of all classical Alex Raymondesque sci-fi world.

Agreed. However, there are some fans who are screaming and pleading for Luthor to be restored to his "untouchable businessman" post because they can't cope with him being a full-on bad guy.  :roll: I guess moving away from 1986 is too much for some people.

I did like McGuinness' take on the old-school Krypton, though. Very nicely done, and I agree that "R2K" would have been a fine compromise between Byrne's version and the classic version. Alas, it wasn't meant to be....

Could be, but I've never heard them.  On the other hand, I have  heard lots of fans scream and plead over the course of the last 10 years that Luthor be returned to his super-villain status and a lot of people also hated the whole president mess.  I count myself in this group.  :)

I like the President thing a lot.  And I like the idea that Luthor is untouchable.  The old Luthor just wasn't all that interesting.  He breaks out of prison, he screws with Superman, he goes back to prison.  That's not a character, that's a plot device, and a weak one.

Did Luthor stop being a villain because he became a businessman and a politican?  Since when are businessmen and politicians above villainy?  He just got better at it.  He got smarter.  I could never bring myself to believe that Luthor was a smart guy when all he did was fail repeatedly.  The Byrne Luthor, the guy who succeeded at everything unless Superman was involved, that guy was interesting.  And if Superman is symbolic of everything that is great and good about humanity (and specifically America), then Luthor is symbolic of everything that is great and evil about humanity (and specifically America).  I thought it worked rather well.

Not so crazy about a lot of the other things Byrne did.  And I would like to see Luthor put on that suit and smack the beejeezus out of somebody.  I'd like to see him beat the snot out of Batman without the suit, too.  But overall, I think that one of the good things that Byrne did was give us a Luthor worthy of Superman.

I think the problem with Luthor as a businessman is the fact that once he's brought down (and he has to be eventually) he's not really a threat to Superman anymore. I think this is one of the reasons why Luthor wasn't brought down sooner. I mean, where do you go with the character once he loses all his money and power?

Luckily, due to the recent retcons, Luthor is once again a super-genius (as he should be) he can be a legitimate threat to Superman after losing everything. I'm not saying that I disliked Luthor as a businessman or the President, but I don't think there was a plan for when Luthor was brought down.

As for the pre-Crisis Luthor, I vehemently disagree that he was a plot-device. Doomsday was a plot-device, not the pre-Crisis Luthor. Writers like Elliot S! Maggin wrote Luthor as a truly three-dimensional character and not just evil for the sake of it.

Oh, granted.  Nothing is lamer than Doomsday.  Except maybe Carrot Top.  And mimes.

nah, Doomday is still lamer.

Worst-case scenario:  Doomsday puts on facepaint and tries to sell me phone service.

I think it says a lot about Doomsday when his animated counterpart is far more interesting than the comic version. The Cyborg Superman is even worse, though.

I always felt that the whole "Death of Superman" storyline could've been done much better. If they HAD to kill Superman, why didn't they just have Luthor or Brainiac do the deed? Or, if they wanted a big fight, Mongul would've been a good choice.

And such a boring way to die in a comicbook, too.  I can just see how Jurgens must have plotted that part:

"They punch each other a lot and then they fall down.  And then they ... uh ... die.  Okay, I got nothin' here.  Better make it all splash-pages."

They should have used it as a way of outing Luthor, or something like that.

I guess one of the reasons old-school fans disliked the new Lex was the way it reflectied on Superman --if he can't protect the world from a corrupt businessman how powerful/smart could he be?  And conversely, what kind of threat is a businessman for the greatest superhero?

Sorry. I like Weisingerman too, just like everyone else on this board-- but my all-time favorite of the Superman Avatars is "Longhair Superman", an evolved variant of byrne's Superman.

Besides, Byrne's Krypton is much more meaningful then a suposedly "benevolent" Krypton, whose society was a wet towel when it came to killing somebody, but would doom them insteadt to un-life in the Phantom Zone; some of them for eternity, like poor Jax-Ur.  :shock:

How is Byrne's Krypton more meaningful? Byrne made his Krypton sterile and emotionless for the sole purpose of killing the cool Kryptonian part of the Superman mythos, so he could say "Superman's home planet isn't worth revisiting, and it deserved to blow up anyway". Every time the Iron Age Superman came under some kind of Kryptonian influence, it always had a negative effect i.e. he became cold and unfeeling and tried to take over the world or something.

I'll agree that pre-Crisis Krypton's Phantom Zone punishment is ethically and morally questionable, but that alone doesn't make Byrne's Krypton better.

Ok, so who're the other 3 old farts who Voted Siegler & Shuster like me?  :roll: In my own personal reality, Doomsday and the death of Superman don't exist!  :shock: Not to mention the many deaths of Supergirl!  :?

Certainly not, George. If we had the chance, most sane people would want to visit Pre-Crisis Krypton, but would rather die then having to live on Post-Crisis Krypton.

But, I didn't say Byrne's Krypton was the "better" place then Weisinger's Krypton: I said it was the more meaningful place. (There is a difference, you know.  :) )

But, compare the 2 major Kryptons: the "Weisinger Krypton", which had many earlier and later versions, but finds its ultimate expression in the version which was showcased during Weisinger's run; and the "Byrne Krypton", which also had several slightly different versions.

In WK, we find a world which is full of natural beauty: the "Jewel Mountains" and the "Rainbow Fountain", to name but two.

They have a population which is, on the surface, highly good-natured; but on the surface.

BK, by comparision, clearly is a powerful metapher about what would happen if we ever would make shience, laws and technology our goods: in the end, we, as well as our planet, would become sterile outside, vile and corrupted inside.

As to the "Phantom Zone Solution" being just "questionable"... that's a understatement, don't you think?!

Y' know, there's a reason why even a mass murderer must not be tortured to death (at least under american and UN law), though some might say he well deserves such a ghastly end. The punishments always stop by an relatively painless execution.

But how would you call being punished with even a month in the Phantom Zone-- a place where you must allways watch reality, without ever being permitted to be a part of it?? I at least would prefer to die to having to suffer such a curse for even a week!


And now imagine the average Zoner who suffered in this hell for a generation-- or the poor people who are "livers".

Honest, Byrne's Krypton is a little less evil then Weisinger's.

besides, think of the symbolism: Pre-Byrne, Supes was the best Krypton had to offer-- and since no one really took a closer look at the deeper aspects of Krypton, everybody thought this world was somehow "better" then our planet. (No capital punishments, science which would leave Reed Richards green with envy, etc.)

But Byrne's Krypton is a methapher of heriditary sin-- science worship which ever tries to pull the hero back into his dark abbys.

What "meaning" would you give to Weisinger's Krypton?

It's not nice to call somebody a "old fart" just because he prefers a 70 years-old version of Supes.  :P   :evil:

...And I miss Kara too...  :(

We'll never get her back permanently, will we?!

Well at least you noticed that I was including myself in the group.  :roll: Having just had the birthday that celebrates "The Answer to Life, The Universe and Everything" according to Douglas Adams, I grew up with 10 cent comics and Krypto, Superbaby and Super Boy and Supergirl tales! Hell! I collected Superbaby comics as a kid! How's that for farty?  :roll:

Mizrael, I missed the "like me" part.  :D

As to being "farty"... I don't know about that. I allways thought that without the people who bought the comics as kids, the Superman legend wold have DIED long ago.  :?:

I wish I was old enough to have lived in the Weisinger/Superman mythos first-hand-- as things stand, I'm just old enough to remember the last six years before Byrne's Superman version. Though a later version is my favorite Superman, I'm well aware that I came in late, when the earlier originality of Weisinger's myth had been long turned to being clished.  :(

You know, instead of feeling "old", you should relish the fact that you were around when the best-known version of Supes started! It really just depends on how important Superman is to you.

Oh, While I may be "Old" in years, I'm still very much young at heart. Besides, as people keep trying to tell me, 42 isn't old.... Uh huh!  :P

Nice to hear it. With this talk about Supes' original origin, I first thought you were over 60; then you'd be REALLY lucky-- at least so far as being allmost as long around as our favorite.  :)

On the subject of meaning in Krypton, the ones I find the most meaningful are actually not in the comics.  That isn't a slight to the Silver Age version because I enjoy it as well.

First and formost is the Krypton from STAS which draws influences from nearly every version of Krypton there has ever been.  I think it strikes a good balance because it's not just the Krypton that is cold and just there to die so Superman can be human like Byrnes, yet it's also quite a bit less wacky than the Silver Age version.

What I liked is that the explanation for why the council chose not to believe Jor-El was not only their arrogance but also a great dependance on technology for their answer to everything.  Not only a classic science fiction theme, but a very timely one for when the show was made that resonates even now.  (and the *perfect* way to bring Brainiac into the story.)

I really enjoyed the design sense that Bruce Timm brought to it.  Lots of little touches, everything from the architecture to the fact that this time it's Lara who has the curl.

I also like the version of Krypton in the movies. While in many ways this Krypton is cold even literally, it also really works the religous metaphor. In a sense you get the idea that Krypton is heaven. Or at least, it was and its angels could not concieve that they could die.

To me the reason why Krypton it is meaningful for Krypton to be a place worth remembering is not only because I believe that it's essential to Supermans character but also even from day one the idea behind Krypton is that it is a world just like Earth that managed to achive all the wonderful dreams of mankind. It was a world that made it, and but for the arrogance of a few, it was all lost.

One of the defining elements of whether or not I like a version of Krypton is in how the rocket launch/goodbye scene is handled.  Nearly every version of it I've ever scene I found to be a very moving. Sometimes even to the point of getting misty eyed. It's such a wonderful story. Sad yet filled with swelling of hope by knowing that this poor little baby from a doomed world will become the greatest hero ever known.  All the version of Krypton I've seen have been able to do this.  

All except one.  

Byrne Krypton.  I don't know if it's the look of the place, the sterile world thing, Laras stupid "Ohh! He bares his flesh in the air!" or "he can shape them to proper Kryptonian ways" lines.  Or the fugly orange egg on a hyperdrive ship. But it just did nothing for me at all.  It's pretty clear that with Byrne Krypton you're not supposed to give a crap about because Byrne doesn't either and if you're determined to apply the Marvel paradigm to every superhero in existance, including Superman then I guess it's not supposed to matter anyway.   :?

LOL Yeah, thankfully I'm not THAT old yet, but since I did start reading comics at age 2 along with my Doctor Suess books because my brother was reading them, 1965 was about when I started my Superman addiction.  :roll:

I find merits in all the "origin" stories - the Classic Golden Age Origin is the basis for all others but the other origin tales enhance and honor it in there own way.  I however will say that Bryne got one thing right at least - Martha and Jonathan Kent.  The Kents gave a different type of charactactization to Clark and Superman and gave him a sense of family unmatched even by the Silver Age Supergirl.  But as with all things that is my opinion and that  a quarter will get you only a cheap cup of day old coffee.

I picked the original Siegel&Shuster origin.  I'm not all that familiar with it, and I think it misses a lot of my favorite elements, like Johnathen and Martha Kent.  But the one thing I really liked about it was the description of Superman's powers.

I liked the idea of Superman being the man of tomorow - that he didn't necessarrily come from a planet that was heavier than earth, or that had a red sun, just that he came from a race of people who were "highly evolved".  Is it realistic to assume that evolution would ever do that?  No.  But none of the other origins are realistic either.  Even though mankind will never be able to outrun bullets and jump over buildings, in the original Superman origin story, it seemed that there was some kind of hope.  There was the belief that in the future, we could become something great, and that ever day, humanity could become better than the last.

Here is the UNCUT version, it's a lot longer than the version that ran in Action Comics #1 or even Superman #1.

enjoy:

http://superman.nu/tales2/adventurestrip/

Argh! What happens to Lois?!?! I hate when people do that!  :oops:  :P

Your points are all well taken, Kuuga.  8)

But my guess why you didn't feel moved by Byrne's Krypton at ALL is that it was indeed that strange ""Ooooh! He bares his flesh in the air!!" reaction of Lara. It WAS a big departure from what we knew of Jor_El & Lara, and even I found this scene more revolting and attention-craving then "complex" or fascinating"...  :?

I found the being shunted off to earth part of Byrne also left me oddly indifferent. But Byrne's Krypton as a whole is STILL the most magnificient of all Kryptons, because it turned Superman's tale (and origin) into some veritable Epic: Superman wasn't just some mindless "kryptonian patriot" trying to live UP to the ethics of an culture whose morals were dubious at best (Phantom Zone, or that custom to force young people to take up a job choosed for them by an computer?? WTF???), but who's the very paragon of the word "Hero".

Plus, there was this aspect of "Dark Krypton" allways trying to reach from the grave and remake Superman into its own corrupted image...  8)

One significant thing that Waid did splendidly in Birthright was give women, Lara and Martha in particular, a more equal footing in the supermythos.  Lara is a co-equal and even a greater contributor to the moral strength of Kal's parents.  Lara even designed the navigation system instead of being some dumb bystander in awe of Jor's genius.  Martha is more embracing of Clark's alien heritage and supportive while Jonathan is more threatened by it.  Lois, 'nuff said.

Lara in all other incarnations besides the Byrned one is at best a foil for Jor-El and certainly not a major contributor to Kal's heritage nor character.

But Byrne messed-up big-time with his rendition of Lara.  Here we have an obstructive prude who seems to deserve to die with the sterile Krypton that spawned her.  Byrned Lara is intolerant, quite narrow-minded, and quite elitist.  We see nothing of redeeming value in her and she exists primarily to be knocked by Byrned Jor-El for consistently being wrong all the time.  Would it have troubled Byrne to have used the old Science Council angle or something like it to be the foil to show how right Jor was and wrong Krypton's POV was?  Unca Johnny had to go and desecrate Lara.

Byrned Martha is similarly lacking in contribution to Clark and is largely a second class stereotype of what a farm matron is.  It's Jonathan who boldly jumps in to check out the spacecraft while Martha hangs back.   It's Jonathan who's the guy who lectures Clark -- belatedly by several years! -- of the evils of abusing his powers for personal gain (a la Peter Parker). It's Jonathan who comes up with the secret ID for using Clark's powers publicly.  It's Martha who plays a stereotypical seamstress for the costume and is firmly secondary to her husband.

IOW, on analysis, Byrne's MOS is not only stereotypical but smacks of misogynism.

Thank goodness Waid finally not only set this right but he elevated Lara to a peer and full partner for BR Jor-El.  The same goes for BR Martha.

I liked how in the animated series it's Martha who's most curious to discover what's inside the ship while Johnathan has that great line. "We don't know where that baby is from! He could be Russian! A Sputnik baby!"  :lol:

I agree with you 100%, but I think it's important to remember that in the original Siegel & Shuster story, Lara did have a minor role as the indirect originator of the idea of sending Kal off in a rocket. (see http://superman.nu/tales2/adventurestrip/?page=6 )  In all the later retellings, this detail seems to have been quickly forgotten.

I prefer the Birthright origin story. The other's are still good and I like them, but they're dated and leave me feeling disconnected to the character.

Birthright brings Superman nicely into modern times and does a good job conveying the range of emotions that Clark goes through in making his decisions. Plus, the art is amazing.

First choice is the Silver/Bronze Age version of his origin. What I grew up on, plus it incorporated all the things I liked (Superboy, Krypton as  a decent place to live [marriages having to be blessed by a computer, until Jor-El took care of *that*, notwithstanding ;-) ], etc.). Some of it might be a bit dated or even "hokey", but I still like it...

Second choice, not listed above, is probably the Superman:The Animated Series origin. Granted, a lot of it was influenced by Byrne's version of things, but it kept/made intelligent use of the traditional elements (Krypton, sent to Earth as a baby and not a fetus, Clark isn't a top athlete in high school) as well. That, and the cartoon's version of Brainiac is pretty cool (a better take on the 90s' comics' "Eradicator" idea)...

I might've picked "Birthright" if I had read it (haven't had the $$ to do so...).

I think that Byrne's Krypton is an essentially pointless and purposefully contrarion misreading of the post-Siegel Krypton (ie, the Silver Age Kypton).  The idea of a scientific utopia with some very human quirks and faults is what we get in the traditional Krypton.  The ethics of this culture are very similar to those of the Earth cultures most Americans admire and aspire to.  An inspiration and a warning to Superman.

either the byrne MOS, or Birthright

Someone's discovered some scientific problems with the BIRTHRIGHT origin:

http://comicfacts.blogspot.com/2005/03/kryptonian-astrophysics-101.html

(The Superman animated series had a novel solution to this seeming inconsistency in the Brainiac computer. The animated Krypton was fully scientifically capable of diagnosing the planet's problem, and of addressing it, but their folly was in trusting a machine that lied to them out of its own self-interest.)


This is one of the big reasons why out of them all in any media, I would have to point to the STAS origin as my favorite.  The inclusion of Brainiac is like the missing peice of the origins puzzle finally in place. I just love it, from the big things to the little things like Kal-Els ship having a landing gear.

Hey, Forgottenhero, the guy who wrote that 'scientific problems' article clearly didn't read Birthright carefully enough.

First, in the opening pages of BR #1, we see clearly in the simulation Kal-El's starcraft trying to evade hostile alien ships.  Also, Jor-El mentions Krypton searching for life 'similarly advanced' as Krypton in BR #1.  IIRC, in the last issues of BR, Krypton had wars with other systems.  Krypton clearly knew about life in other systems.

Second, Krypton's sun was a 'red dwarf' relative to the Kryptonians' POV.  Possibly, what's a 'dwarf' to them is a 'giant' to us.

But that business of a virtually unpopulated Kryptonian galaxy simply doesn't wash given what BR clearly shows us about Krypton knowing about other worlds with life.  What they were looking for but didn't find were lifeforms as advanced as they were.  That implies Krypton was the epitome of advancement in their galaxy and weren't really interested in lesser advanced worlds for whatever reason.  And they clearly showed at least two pieces of evidence that some systems they encountered were hostile thus eliminating them from consideration for Kal-El.

At the last moment, Jor decides that instead of a similar world and culture, he'd settle for one that would maximize his son's chances via super-powers which gave him Earth in our galaxy.

(I've had this debate with ManoftheAtom on the DC boards so I have most of this memorized.  I'm surprised MOTA didn't write that article himself.)

I should see if I can comment/rebut that article on its own site.

I don't actually own issues of BIRTHRIGHT or the hardcover collection (I plan on buying it in softcover). So, a question: doesn't Waid have Krypton be both in the Andromeda Galaxy and "25 light years away"? (The Andromeda Galaxy, as the article I linked to states, is 2.2 million light years away.)

I'm at work right now so I don't have access to my books.

But I don't recall Waid making that 25 light-year comment anywhere in BR.  Jor-El just said Earth was 'far'.

BTW, the comment about being impossible to make a 33+ G Krypton is also off.  Give us a giant planet just this side of a brown dwarf star of 0.08 solar masses and a radius about a quarter of our sun's and it could easily have Krypton's gravity with only a density of about 6.97 g/ml vs Earth's density of 5.52 g/ml.  This is perfectly normal matter density still albeit slightly high for a planet.

I registered and added my comments to that blog, Forgottenhero.

If one is going to knock someone else's work, at least get one's facts straight first about that work.

Let me add my Mars comments here.

Why Mars wasn't considered:

Krypton certainly was aware of life on other worlds but none of them were suitable for their interests. Earth was the optimal choice for Kal-El esp. considering it had an atmosphere more compatible with Krypton's rather than the sparse, unbreathable one of Mars. That's not even considering how Krypton had a history of bad encounters with other space-capable races so they'd be shy about coming to Mars.

Jor-El was counting on Kal-El's super-powers to make him physically superior to competing lifeforms in his environment.  Hence, he didn't have to plan for adoptive parents or a friendly civilization to greet his son.

But Mars isn't only a highly advanced, space-faring society, but current continuity -- for what it's worth when it comes to the constantly shifting Martian portrayals -- has the Martians powered on their own world.  Surely, Kal's advantages would be much watered-down on Mars as opposed to Earth where he'd clearly be superior.

I have to agree although not listed and not comics canon, my favorite is the STAS origin. It really seems a best parts version.  I also like the STAS Brainiac sooo much better. Fasinating how they managed to make a computer into a very personal villian.

Whoa.  What an interesting idea.  Jor-El deliberately choosing Earth over Mars precisely because he wanted Kal-El to be the physical superior of those around him.

But on Mars, Kal-El would have been more at home, I think.  He would have been raised by people with powers much like his own.  He might have even learned more powers than he could on Earth.

Whoa.  What an interesting idea.  Jor-El deliberately choosing Earth over Mars precisely because he wanted Kal-El to be the physical superior of those around him.

But on Mars, Kal-El would have been more at home, I think.  He would have been raised by people with powers much like his own.  He might have even learned more powers than he could on Earth.

I recall Luthor being the one who makes the 25 light year comment. I think it's when Luthor reveals to Superman that the planet he's from is Krypton.

I just checked the issue where Luthor reveals the truth and he doesn't say "twenty-five light years." He does, however, say that Krypton EXPLODED twenty-five years ago (Superman's age is twenty-five).

Absolutely right, Notsuper.  I just checked my own issues, too.

Lex was using a wormhole to view random scenes from Krypton's past.  He calculated the actual explosion occurred about 25 years ago in that book.  That doesn't mean it took 25 years for that information to reach him given that wormhole tech and the fact he was receiving images from all over Krypton's history.

I'm glad you liked that idea, Daybreaker.

One also has to factor in that Earth is a lot more like Krypton's environment than Mars is.  Jor-El was already settling by giving up on a similarly advanced world, so he wasn't going to give in even more on the ecology if he could help it.  His primary consideration was giving Kal-El a home as safe and similar to Krypton's as possible.  Mars is a barren wasteland compared with Earth for ecosystem.

I just rechecked that link and found all the comments -- including my own rebuttals of that article -- have been deleted.

It seems the evidence of the Birthright series itself somehow has less priority than the erroneous preconceptions of the article authors.

Delta House quote: Nothing is impossible for the man who won't listen to reason.

Hey CK, what were your rebuttals to that article?

Superman #600 showed that Krypton has to be within the 35 year timespan Superman has been on earth because that when radiation (ie light) reached earth.

I get the feeling that Morrison's All-Star Superman may become the new standard bearer on Superman origins (even though the origin scene will only last a few panels...).

They're quoted earlier on this thread.

http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1157&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50

Hey, Forgottenhero, the guy who wrote that 'scientific problems' article clearly didn't read Birthright carefully enough.

First, in the opening pages of BR #1, we see clearly in the simulation Kal-El's starcraft trying to evade hostile alien ships. Also, Jor-El mentions Krypton searching for life 'similarly advanced' as Krypton in BR #1. IIRC, in the last issues of BR, Krypton had wars with other systems. Krypton clearly knew about life in other systems.

Second, Krypton's sun was a 'red dwarf' relative to the Kryptonians' POV. Possibly, what's a 'dwarf' to them is a 'giant' to us.

But that business of a virtually unpopulated Kryptonian galaxy simply doesn't wash given what BR clearly shows us about Krypton knowing about other worlds with life. What they were looking for but didn't find were lifeforms as advanced as they were. That implies Krypton was the epitome of advancement in their galaxy and weren't really interested in lesser advanced worlds for whatever reason. And they clearly showed at least two pieces of evidence that some systems they encountered were hostile thus eliminating them from consideration for Kal-El.

At the last moment, Jor decides that instead of a similar world and culture, he'd settle for one that would maximize his son's chances via super-powers which gave him Earth in our galaxy.

(I've had this debate with ManoftheAtom on the DC boards so I have most of this memorized. I'm surprised MOTA didn't write that article himself.)

I should see if I can comment/rebut that article on its own site.


Note the cloaking shield failure in Lara's simulation as Kal-El's ship tries to evade a hostile alien space fleet in Birthright #1, page 2, panel 3.

(http://superman.nu/tales2/birthright/2.jpg)

Note the cloaking shield actually being used on entry into Earth's environment to prevent Kal's ship from being detected by our instruments. (Birthright #1, page 15, panel 1)

(http://superman.nu/tales2/birthright/15.jpg)

http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1157&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

Lex was using a wormhole to view random scenes from Krypton's past. He calculated the actual explosion occurred about 25 years ago in that book. That doesn't mean it took 25 years for that information to reach him given that wormhole tech and the fact he was receiving images from all over Krypton's history.

Heh heh, that's what I get for being lazy and not reading it from the get go.  :D