1st official image of Brandon Routh as Superman

[Super Monkey]

Where does this put people who may not like Byrne-Jurgens, Lois & Clark, and Smallville, or people who don't like them exclusively? Where does this put people who like the other incarnations of Superman? Where does this put people who respect the entire history of the character?

They can come here, that why this site was created in the 1st place. They can also keep buying reprints and hope that All-Star Superman lives up to the hype.

The Dini/Timm cartoons have been flayed to the gills for daring to be the opposite of both these shows (and yet they're superior in nearly every way).

The only thing I didn't like about the Superman in the The Dini/Timm cartoons is that he was TOO depowered, which was very annoying. However, what I did like about them was that his personality and the stories were well written. They were also way better than those two other shows, IMHO.

The Superman fandom has become a selfish, egotistical clique that would rather see Superman die with them than embrace the history and move forward with it. They don't even want new fans coming in; they've come right out and said new fans aren't necessary or wanted. So where do you go from there?

As far as Iron Age fans, or Dark Age fans or whatever people want to call them, is that they are the only ones who are still buying comics these days and DC are therefore too scare to rock the boat not to cave in and give them the crap that they love. Notice All-Star Superman will not have much effect on the main Iron Age Superman comics. I have personally talked to a famous DC editor who has a fan following here about this. Sorry, I don't want to drop names so I can't go into detail about what was said without giving away who he is, but he pretty much said the same thing you did, the fans are nuts, LOL! Also, people also need to understand that DC and by DC I mean people running the show, above the editors, the editors do not run the show anymore, those days are LONG GONE, don't care, DC couldn't care less. To them, Superman and Batman are not looked upon as characters, because they are not, they are not even mascots, they are just trademarks and copyrights, intellectual property, nothing more, nothing less. The real money is in the TV Shows, Cartoons, Films, Video Games and Toys. Not the comics! They couldn't care less about what happens in the story, it doesn't matter. Notice how much care is put into these other mediums compared to the comics. Superman isn't the most famous fake person next to Mickey Mouse because of his comics! Most people ONLY know Superman from all the TV shows over the years, all the cartoons over the years and films over the years. Most of those fans never even read the comics and never plan to, but they will go see that new film. The new film isn't going to bomb because 125,000 Iron Age fanboys refuse to watch it and want to whine and cry like little babies on-line, because there are MILLIONS of people who love Superman and who don't ever read the comics, who would vomit if they ever read the current comics, who to them the old Superman movies are the true Superman, who can't wait to see it. Why else would DC allow the movie to be made that way, to be part of the storyline of the old films? The fanbase for the film and for the comics are very different. DC couldn't care less what those Iron Age fanboys think, as long as millions of movie fans show up opening weekend.

The comics are only still being published to keep the copyrights from running out. Artwork? Writing? That doesn't matter one bit. The editor's job is to hire people who are not going to rock the boat and just get hacks who will give the Iron Age fanboys just what they want in order that they can keep taking their money, since they are the only ones still willing to buy overpriced comics with bad art and bad writing anymore. Remember that there actually was a rule that no big names were allowed to work on Superman, no famous writers, no famous artists. That rule was there for years. They broke the rule for Jim Lee, since Batman was selling so well, they saw a chance to make even more money and Iron Age fanboys love Jim Lee and Alex Ross, they would buy anything they work on. While the comics don't really matter other than to keep the copyrights alive, they also do not want to lose money publishing them, so they try to keep the Iron Age fans happy. Now not everyone who works for the big two are hacks, some really try but there is only so much they are allowed to do in that system. Also DC and Marvel are the only two companies that pay enough to actually live off of, so what can they do other than to play along in order to collect that check to pay the bills so they can live? Some stop caring and become hacks, others never cared and were always hacks, others still care and always will and if they are very lucky, they become famous enough that the big ups give them more freedom, not too much freedom, but just enough to keep them happy in order to make more money off of them.

So why All-Star Superman then? Simple, the selling point there with the All-Star line is with the artists and writers aka the All-Stars in question. Those books do not effect the main Superman or Batman books, so the Iron Age fanboys can't cry too much. It will also tap into the market of fans who buy all those TPBs of the old comics who are not buying the current Superman comics. The real money on the All-Star line will be made when they are publish as TPBs three times, LOL Hardcore, Soft cover, then super DX editions If they are smart and are by making people wait, the 1st issue will not be release until December. That way they can get people who just can't wait anymore to actually buy the single issues and then once again TPB later. Oh and the collectible DC Direct figure and statues based on them, the old school market likes those, note how just how much Sliver Age stuff makes it into there.

[shazamtd]

The problem is, the "Iron Age" fans ARE the fandom these days.

I've seen countless MBs where Siegel and Shuster's work has been trashed viciously and Byrne's been touted as the true creator of Superman, or at least the savior who "rescued" Superman from the ignorant hackwork of 1938-1986. (Batman fans have done the same thing, disowning Bob Kane and Bill Finger and touting Frank Miller as the true creator of Batman.)

I've seen every single incarnation of Superman pre-1986, be it in the comics, cartoons, movies, and TV, condemned as "inherent garbage" because it's [a] from an earlier era, it was aimed at a young audience instead of a clique of adult fanboys, and [c] it was space opera rather than the Byrne-instigated soap opera.

I've seen Kirk Alyn and George Reeves disowned from the character's media history, with Chris Reeve in the process of being disowned himself. All of a sudden, the once-maligned Dean Cain is held up as the true Superman because he played the Byrne-instigated version, and Tom Welling, whose disdain for the adult Superman is no secret, is held up as the only actor fit to carry the role. If Reeve gets any credit at all, it's because he befriended Welling when he gueststarred on Smallville. His portrayal of Superman is despised rather than revered.

I've seen Lois & Clark and Smallville held up as the only valid media versions of the character, with anything outside of them regarded as trash. FoLCs assert that any Superman that doesn't religiously follow the Lois & Clark rendition "isn't worth bothering with," and the Wellingites (the group name of the hard-core Smallville fans) assert that the mythos should be altered to fit Smallville's telling and that it should be the ofifical version in all media, including the comics. The Dini/Timm cartoons have been flayed to the gills for daring to be the oppsoite of both these shows (and yet they're superior in nearly every way).

Where does this put people who may not like Byrne-Jurgens, Lois & Clark, and Smallville, or people who don't like them exclusively? Where does this put people who like the other incarnations of Superman? Where does this put people who respect the entire history of the character?

Nowhere. They've been cast out of the fandom.

And Superman Returns is being made by a filmmaking team whose influences range from 1938-1978. The era where Superman was created and came to full flower. An era the fanbase has disowned and wants to see buried and forgotten. So what do you do in that case?

The Iron Age, unfortunately, IS what Superman's been reduced to. And if you try to buck the fandom, God help you. The SDCC-goers found this out the hard way when the Internet community crucified them for even DARING to like what Singer presented. The Superman fandom has become a selfish, egotistical clique that would rather see Superman die with them than embrace the history and move forward with it. They don't even want new fans coming in; they've come right out and said new fans aren't necessary or wanted. So where do you go from there?

OH NO!!!  My favorite version of Superman is the radio show!!  I'm not worthy!  I'm going to have to throw out my entire Superman collection!   :cry:  

LOL!!!

There are versions of Superman I do like and there are versions of Superman I don't like.  Superman has been around long enough that I'm sure there's something out there to suit everyone's taste.  I'm going to wait until I see the new movie to decide whether it's a version I like or not.

If the whining fanboys out there on the internet hate it and aren't going to see it then, GREAT!!  That just means there will be more seats available at the theater.  Super Monkey is on the right track.  A few thousand people aren't going to make or break this flick.

As far as the costume goes, it looks like Superman to me.  For those who are bellyaching about this and that being different just look at all the other costumes.  From Kirk Alyn down to Dean Cain ALL the costumes have been different.

P.S.  I thought Batman Begins was terriffic!  

[TELLE]

It does give me pause to think that actual readers of new Superman comics number only around 100 000 people or less, whereas the number of people familiar with the concept is, what, a billion?  And the typical audience for a big-budget Hollywood movie is in the tens of millions, not to mention DVDs, etc.  That's a lot of Superman fans who never heard of John Byrne (or Grant Morrison, for that matter).

Take a trip over to the Smallville boards, or the Justice League cartoon fan sites, and you'll find thousands of Superman fans who have never read a Superman comic book.  Mind-boggling.

[shazamtd]

Take a trip over to the Smallville boards, or the Justice League cartoon fan sites, and you'll find thousands of Superman fans who have never read a Superman comic book. Mind-boggling.

In this day and age I don't find that very surprising.  I have a hard time finding people who read at all anymore.  I wish I read more.

[King Krypton]

It does give me pause to think that actual readers of new Superman comics number only around 100 000 people or less, whereas the number of people familiar with the concept is, what, a billion?  And the typical audience for a big-budget Hollywood movie is in the tens of millions, not to mention DVDs, etc.  That's a lot of Superman fans who never heard of John Byrne (or Grant Morrison, for that matter).

Take a trip over to the Smallville boards, or the Justice League cartoon fan sites, and you'll find thousands of Superman fans who have never read a Superman comic book.  Mind-boggling.

You'd be shocked how many Smallville fans hold the mythology in the highest contempt. To them, Smallville should end like this:

- Lois gets written out of the mythos completely, or dies and Chloe assumes her identity and moves out of town. Clark marries Lana instead because "they're meant to be."

- Clark and Lana stay in Smallville as a happy farm couple. "Screw Metropolis and the Daily Planet." (Yes, that's an actual quote from the AOL Smallville forums during a heated debate over whether Smallville should follow the mythos or rewrite it completely and make the comics follow suit.)

- Lex Luthor remains a good guy and Clark's bestest buddy because "that's how it should be." Lionel Luthor takes over as Clark's arch-nemesis.

- Lana gets magic bracelets and becomes Wonder Woman.

- Pete gets a power ring and becomes Green Lantern.

You'll also find that many Smallville fans think that since the comics are an ongoing storyline, there's still hope that they'll conform to the Wellingites' [group name for the hard-core Smallville fans and Routh haters] desires and hook Clark up with Lana once and for all, redeem Lex, and all the other stuff they so want.

Getting back on topic, a number of comic book pros are actively against Superman Returns: John Byrne, Jon Bogdanove, Alex Ross, and DC fan-film director Sandy Collora. Byrne, Bogdanove, and Ross are throwing hissy fits because Singer's not doing Superman and his costume exactly the way they themselves would do it (and Ross is an active Wellingite whose disapproval of Routh's casting is well known), and Collora's angry because he wanted Singer's movie to be a live-action translation of Alex Ross' paintings all the way (which Collora himself attempted with Michael O'Hearn in World's Finest). Jim Lee's tried to come to the film's defense (indeed, Routh's costume and hairdo bear some of Lee's influence), but he's been derided as a no-talent hack who couldn't draw a decent Superman in a month of Sundays.

[JulianPerez]

I think the outfit - and the upcoming film - sound and look absolutely fantastic. Nowhere to be seen is a matrix-style Lex Luthor who is from Krypton. Nowhere to be seen is retarded coloring book character Doomsday. Superman probably isn't going to die.

The scriptgoers are inspired by the totality of Superman's existence, not the adolescent, clueless excesses of Byrne and his bootlicking lackeys, George Carlin, Dan Jurgens, and Roger Stern (author of a great AVENGERS and SPIDER-MAN run; how the mighty have fallen).

For the Love of God, they're using the Superman music from the Donner picture! They've got phone booths!

John Byrne is against the movie, so that's almost evidence that it's going to be great. It doesn't follow the apocryphal, conceptually divorced and offensive version he parrotted in Man of Steel, which may be the first Superman fanfic to ever be published, years before the internet came into common use. OF COURSE he hates it; John Byrne, the man who reduced the Vision from a loving being with a soul, to, in his own words, "a toaster," the "writer" who has unleashed more damage on either the Marvel or DC Universe - he's against it. John Byrne is someone that wants to leave a mark on comics, but he lacks the talent to do so.

As for Smallville - it is not as cool as ROSWELL, whose time slot it usurped. Superman's teen angst does not interest me in the least.

[TELLE]

As for Smallville - it is not as cool as ROSWELL, whose time slot it usurped. Superman's teen angst does not interest me in the least.

I prefer the X-files.  My wife prefers Dawson's Creek.    Maybe I just can't get used to the idea of Bo Duke as Pa Kent ...

Contemporary lame superhero comic book "artist" opinions abut movies are the worst, most undignified form of fanboy whining.

[King Krypton]

I think the outfit - and the upcoming film - sound and look absolutely fantastic. Nowhere to be seen is a matrix-style Lex Luthor who is from Krypton. Nowhere to be seen is retarded coloring book character Doomsday. Superman probably isn't going to die.

No, but he does get hospitalized at one point. Speculation has it that either Luthor tries to knife him to death with a Kryptonian crystal pilfered from the Fortress, or that Superman has a run-in with a kryptonite meteor in a sequence that pays tribute to "Panic in the Sky."

Dead Superman? No. Wounded Superman? Yes. How it happens is open to anyone's guess.

The scriptgoers are inspired by the totality of Superman's existence,

Which is exactly what's getting the fanbase so furious, as they've already decreed that anything before 1986 is lies and that John Byrne gave the world the "ONE TRUE SUPERMAN."

Personally, I think it's better to acknowledge all of Superman's history, using everything that's good and weeding out the bad stuff. But then again, I'm one of the people who's been booted out of the fandom.

not the adolescent, clueless excesses of Byrne and his bootlicking lackeys, George Carlin,

That's Mike Carlin. And he's still a bigwig at DC, hence the total stagnation and increasing badness of the books.

I personally think George Carlin would have more respect for Superman, actually, The worst he'd do would be to tell comedy stories with the character.

Dan Jurgens, and Roger Stern (author of a great AVENGERS and SPIDER-MAN run; how the mighty have fallen).

I liked some of Stern's stories. He's a George Reeves fanboy, so he at least tried to invest Superman with some old-school panache. But once the "event" mentality kicked in with the "death of" mess, Stern got steamrolled. I'm not surprised he's dropped out of comics and is a novelist now. After the editorial mucking he had to put up with on Superman (and that seemingly every writer has to deal with now), I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing.

For the Love of God, they're using the Superman music from the Donner picture!

Which has raised howls of protest. The fanboys don't want the music used at all because of its ties to the "pre-Crisis crap" version of Superman used in the old movies.

They've got phone booths!

This is the only thing I haven't heard complaints about.

John Byrne is against the movie, so that's almost evidence that it's going to be great. It doesn't follow the apocryphal, conceptually divorced and offensive version he parrotted in Man of Steel, which may be the first Superman fanfic to ever be published, years before the internet came into common use.

And yet it's held as the true gospel of Superman, and to be totally honest, the preferred movie of the fanboys would be a panel-for-panel, word-for-word recreation of Man of Steel, with absolutely nothing whatsoever changed from Byrne's text.

That's what they really want, for Byrne's version to be immortalized on film and made permanent canon. Barring that, they want a Smallville spinoff (which wouldn't happen, since Welling refuses to play Superman and Rosenbaum wants out of the show after this year), a "death of" movie recreated word for word and panel for panel from the comic books, and even the "Krypton doesn't blow up and Lex is Kryptonian" script by JJ Abrams. Not necessarily in that order, but those are the only options they'll accept.

OF COURSE he hates it; John Byrne, the man who reduced the Vision from a loving being with a soul, to, in his own words, "a toaster," the "writer" who has unleashed more damage on either the Marvel or DC Universe - he's against it. John Byrne is someone that wants to leave a mark on comics, but he lacks the talent to do so.

Gospel truth: Byrne even launched a hate campaign against the movie's emblem design because it's not the official logo DC uses in its Superman marketing, and in his mind any emblem that isn't said marketing logo is inherently wrong.

Of course, the fact that even he doesn't draw the emblem to look exactly like the marketing logo went unmentioned. Guess nobody wanted to point out that even he puts his own spin on it....

As for Smallville - it is not as cool as ROSWELL, whose time slot it usurped. Superman's teen angst does not interest me in the least.

So I take it you don't subscribe to the "Lana is Clark's soulmate" and "Lex should stay good" dogma?  :lol: