Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Ever since the landmark court case involving the paternity and copyright of Superboy --claimed by both DC/Warner and the Siegel family, the future of Superboy comics publishng at Dc has been in doubt.  Sure, there is the new Superboy & the Legion tv show show, but what about recent comics?

http://blog.newsarama.com/2007/03/30/superboy-now-you-see-him-now-you-dont/

Oh boy...

What does this lawsuit even mean? Do they own it now outright? I mean could they, say release a Superboy comic at Image if they wanted to?

If you watch that show, not only is it called "Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes" but every reference is ALWAYS to SuperMAN, even though the character is obviously a teen.

oops --I had forgotten it was called "Superman and the LSOH" (I haven't seen it yet).

As far as the lawsuit goes, I think they may currently have joint ownership of copyright, and I don't think the whole matter is settled yet, hence DC hedging their bets and eliminating Superboy/tying up loose ends as in the Superboy Prime thing.

There has been speculation that the Siegels could shop it around, but the costume, etc are still under trademark/copyright so what they would have is a name and a concept --superpowered boy called Superboy.

Oh, I agree, DC is running away from Superboy at light speed.

The Legion cartoon is enjoyable, its just so odd to see all the Legion lads, lasses, girls, and boys address the very young Kryptonian as "Superman".

Yes, but I don't think this is because the Siegels got ownership of Superboy. Even after the ruling, they still published Infinite Crisis (and graphic novel collections of it) containing two Superboys. There is also the possibility that Smallville could be ruled a Superboy show and that the Siegels would own all post-2004 episodes.

DC has been erasing Superboy since the mid-1980s. The last retelling of Superman's origin to include Superboy was 22 years ago in Superman: The Secret Years. Despite a 40-year run, no Superboy archives have been published...the only major Golden Age character not to have that luxury.

The market for Superboy is still there. I wish that DC would realize that.

Good points, Gangbuster.  For me, Superboy is an essential part of the Superman Family and legend and a big part of why I'm drawn to this community --we are keeping the memory of those great old comics and the character alive here.  I don't have a big collection of DC Archives and so was unaware that there were no Superboy volumes --makes sense, given DC's attitude to the character.  A combination of ear and embarrassment.

Of course, Smallville is an iteration of Superboy --one I may have been delighted with as a teenager-- but it can't hold a candle to the artistry of those simple & beautiful childrens stories that make up the Superboy comics opus.

Well, the Showcase Legion book is out TODAY and Superboy is all over those stories.

This doesn't make any sense, the Siegels own the rights to the concept of a Clark Kent Superboy in Smallville. IMO, that doesn't include Kon-El and moreso, DC has the trademark of the Superboy name. So, it shouldn't be a problem.

Not exactly. The Siegels own the copyright, and DC owns the trademark. That means basically that DC could publish a comic book or any other product with "Superboy" on the cover, but if the story contains a Superboy, it is copyright infringement.

In the recent Action Comics Annual, a young Clark Kent is active in Smallville as "Superboy". He doesn't wear a costume but uses his powers; saves lives etc. DC refuses to use the name Superboy, except in reprints. That's about the size of it.   

The only unknown is why the young Clark Kent doesn't wear a costume or go by the name.  Is it a creative/editorial decision, or a decree from the legal department?

And thus, we're back to the beginning of the thread.


You're attempting to apply logic to a legal situation; plus we don't know all the facts.

Can someone out there with a far keener legal mind explain...in very small words...exactly what it is that this ruling means?

Incidentally, I'm reminded of the lawsuit by George Lucas against the creators of the original BATTLESTAR: GALACTICA, which TV GUIDE once called "STAR WARS 1 1/2." One of the comments by a juror on this case was very telling: "It's like the first Western ever made suing the second." I've always strongly suspected that jurors on these cases always treat science fiction differently. If the original BSG had been, say, a romantic comedy, it's hard to imagine the jury siding with Universal.

I would never celebrate at the death of a fellow human being, especially someone as talented in his own right as L. Sprague de Camp, but...really, thanks to him dying we've got these deluxe, unabridged versions of Conan, the Bran Mak Morn tales, etc. While L. Sprague is a great writer, his copyright-ownership stranglehold on Howard's estate, and refusal to allow "pure" Howard to be published really hurt fans. A pastiche by him or Lin Carter has no business with Howard's work, no more than something I write belongs there.

I've always thought the Superboy stories were better off in concept than in execution.

Cary Bates wrote a few great Superboy stories in the early eighties, to be sure (the one about Superboy's "extra candle" was fun, fun, fun)...and the "Superboy and the Legion" stories were classics (though really, despite his marquee name...did ANYONE read Legion...for Superboy?) but for the most part, the SUPERBOY comic was an unwelcome Silver Age-style atavism with an emphasis on gimmickry and transformations, usually featuring dubious and interchangeable smuggler/gangster villains, and was for DC what DOCTOR STRANGE would later become for Marvel in the eighties: a rest home for old fogeys past their prime, who did not Exit Stage Right with dignity the way Arnold Drake did.

I'm talking about Leo Dorfman, of course, who has penned some spectacular Superman tales (Superman Red/Superman Blue comes to mind)...but after 1969, I can't think of a single good Dorfman story of any kind, Superboy, Superman, or not. And combine that with Murray Bolitnoff editing, and...

And Superboy has had some pretty mediocre artists. I'm talking about George Papp and Al Plastino here. The brief, but major exception is Bob Brown, who is one of my all-time favorite AVENGERS artists, right up there with Perez and Heck. They had Murphy Anderson to ink over him on SUPERBOY, and you've got something explosive enough to need a warning label. Still, the Brown/Anderson combo didn't last as long as it ought to.

Just about every SUPERBOY comic I own, I bought for the Cary Bates/Dave Cockrum "Tales of the Legion" backup. While there are some Superboy stories I do love and cherish (Cary Bates's DC SUPER STARS #12 [1977], where the Super-Teacher returns and forces Superboy to fall in love and save his girlfriend from Bigfoot), Superboy doesn't make or break versions of Superman for me. He's not important enough to be hard-assed about.

If Geoff Johns wants there to be a Superboy, that's fine. If DC can't because of legal problems, that's fine too.

It's confusing. At this time, I just don't see how this ruling would pertain to Kon-El, whom Siegel didn't create and who's origin is quite distinct from Siegel's creation.

It wouldn't pertain to Kon-El, unless he is called Superboy in the comics. If they only refer to him as Kon-El, or give him a different name other than Superboy, he's ok.

However, at the end of the recent ruling giving control of Superboy back to the Siegels (since 2004) the judge stated that he thought the Siegels should seek action against Smallville, and they have. Though the first judge didn't rule on it, his opinion was that any young Superman is inherently also a Superboy.

If the Siegels win that case, not only would they own the Smallville TV series, but they could also win control of Superboy Prime and Kon-El, by demonstrating that they were young Supermen (in Kon-El's first appearances, he refused to be called anything but Superman.) DC might be forced to settle with the Siegels and admit that any "young Clark Kent" story is a Superboy story. Then DC would have no hope of "erasing Superboy" unless they also erased Superman, which they wouldn't do.

Gangbuster writes:



Michel Weisnor writes:


So....if they can print a comic with Superboy in the title, and they can feature Superboy in reprints (he did make it into Showcase Presents Superman, Vol 2), then we still have no explanation for why there isn't a Superboy Archive...or at least his own Showcase.

BTW, I see the Superboy segments have been removed from the upcoming DVD collection of Filmation's 1966 "New Adventures of Superman" cartoons.  Which is a shame, since Superboy and Krypto were the best part of the show.  :-[

And the early Legion Archives as well, I guess. 


I feel exactly the opposite.  Papp and Plastino (especially Papp) had quirky, highly individualistic, yet professional styles.  Very clear and attractive.  Brown less so.  Somewhat bland, but not in a good Papp way.

Legal Stuff

The Siegels do own Superboy as of 2004. Siegel created Superboy long after Superman and the legal case that decided DC's ownership of Superman did not effect Superboy.

I have no idea what arrangements the Siegels have made since then with DC in terms of allowing Superboy reprints, let alone allowing any production of new Superboy characters/stories.

I suspect that DC is still planning legal moves and skirting around the issue.  One possible interpretation is that the Siegels only own any Superboy characters or stories created after the ruling, post-2004.  This could explain the reappearance of Superboy Prime, a 1980s character.  Kind of weak, since what the Siegels own is actually the copyright to the character Superboy.  Jerry sold the copyright to DC back in the 40s, and DC renewed  beginning in 1972, but under copyright law, the original creator or his heirs have the right to regain the copyright every 47 years.  This is what the Siegels did with Superboy.

The most recent move is that a judge allowed the Siegels to sue over Smallville.  That suit is still pending but the judge stated in a "partial summary judgement" (basically, since the case looks like it might go on forever, the Siegels asked him how it was likely to turn out) that it seems to him that Smallville infringes on the Siegels' copyright.

links

background article from Comics Journal (http://www.tcj.com/263/n_marketable.html)

Excellent article about the case from Variety (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117941008.html?categoryid=1236&cs=1&query=superboy&display=superboy)

(despite its slangy showbiz orientation, Variety is a "real" newspaper, unlike most online sites and fanzines)

Newsarama about Siegels suing over Smallville (http://www.newsarama.com/general/smallville.html)

It surprises me that L. Sprague de Camp had any say in the publication of unedited and unexpurgated tales of Conan. More so as a British publisher brought out a first volume (of two) of such Conan stories just before de Camp died, although his assistance was mentioned in the acknowledgements (though I must say, these books were shockingly proofread, and I am glad I was able to replace them with the newer Ballantine/Del Rey editions).

I agree with you to some extent, Julian - Papp and Plastino have usually failed to excite me, and in my opinion their stories nearly always stand or fall solely on the merits of the writing, unlike the case with Curt Swan on art duties, for instance, with him even if the story is tending towards mediocrity I can still enjoy the art.

The late 1960s-early 1970s Frank Robbins/Bob Brown stint on Superboy is my favorite era of Superboy, with some of the stories having a distinctly darker, noirish edge to them. You omitted to mention, Julian, the great Wally Wood's fairly brief stint as inker over Brown's pencils on Superboy just before Anderson came along. Wood and Anderson are two of the greatest inkers who ever lived in my opinion, and the Superboy comic was certainly much better for having their talents on the book for several years. The less said about Jack Abel's brief spell as Superboy inker around about the same time, the better.

I treasure my complete run of Superboy comics from this period, particularly as apparently none of them have ever been reprinted.

Hated, hated, hated the dark and trendy Superboy period that began to emerge in the late 60s and persisted through the 70s.

Loved the 50s stories (often reprinted in 60s comics as "Superboy Hall of Fame").  Sweet stories with a sense of Smallville in the past, Superboy helping Lana's father reduce stress, Superboy agreeing to Lana's request to help Clark with his self-confidence, Superboy worrying the Kents because he is deliberately exposing himself to specific pieces of kryptonite to build up some immunity.

These great soft tales of a boy growing up in a simple time are completely destroyed when mixed with tales like the second "Super Teacher" story, I mean really - Superboy having the hots for a new "girl" and BIGFOOT?  Lol... ;D  Ripped out of the headlines of a teen tabloid right next to the hype for "King Kong 1976" and a serious discussion of "In Search of Ancient Astronauts"...

well, we can't add Big foot to the Supermanica since that book isn't canon.

Maybe some day ;)

Uggh...but the story is cited in the "Super Teacher" entry, just with the reference spelled out.  I remember, because it pained me to write it...  ;D  Do you think it should go?  There are Detective Comics stories with Superman and Batman in the Batman entry.

That is bad news. Superboy segments are essential to the first season. I'm still going to buy this set. Here's hoping, Superboy will see a DVD release if New Adventures of Superman sales are good. 

Below is an intersting article regarding Superboy in DC.


Johns interview @ign.com 4th page

http://comics.ign.com/articles/779/779562p1.html

"IGN Comics: Infinite Crisis suggested that Clark Kent used his powers for good as an adolescent or teenager. Will you be exploring his youth at all in Action Comics?

Johns: Yes, we'll be exploring that. We're really kind of playing it up like this urban legend - this Super "dash" Boy that was flying around for a while.

IGN Comics: Will this be more along the lines of Smallville rather than say the Silver-Age Superboy stories?

Johns: Kind of, yeah. A little bit of both."