Superman Through the Ages! Forum

theres alot of chat about the g oofyness of the silver age superman, and lets be fair, it deserves it, and is the better for it :P

i was just wondering what do YOU (yes!?!?!? you!!!) think is the goofyest aspect of this period

for me it would have to be the space canine patrol (is that name right?) especially there lil motto "big dog big dog bow wow wow, we crush evil now now now"

and the the Space Cat Patrol Agency!!!

I love them both, but they were extremely silly!

Those issues were selling about 700,000 copies each!

I love all the super pets, but of course I know it's silly! It's a comic book! Comics are suppose to be fun and weird, which in turn makes them more fun. For my money anyway ;)

An easy answer would be something ridiculous and derivative like the Super-Pets or the frequent team-ups with Hercules and Sampson, BUT...

I don't know if it would be any of the above. Stories involving battles with Mr. Mxyzptlk are strange, but they serve the same function as the Holodeck does in STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION: a way of telling very unusual or different kinds of stories.

The most ridiculous aspect about the Weisenger Age wasn't so much a magical imp or that dog. It was a style of storytelling, common in the first decade of Weisenger's tenure, under (ugh) Otto Binder. A storytelling style that had an emphasis on sitcom-esque gimmickry that represented a temporary change or reversal in the status quo that was soon reversed.

All the best Silver Age stories would have to wait for the sixties, and the science fiction grandeur and adventure spirit of the incredible Edmond Hamilton.

(http://www.snipp.org/snippb/Otto/otto2.gif)
Otto Binder (artist's conception)

People talk about the Weisenger Years like they're crazy and unpredictable with new concepts coming out all the time, but what I've read (at least in the beginning), the Weisenger Years were static, still, and set in stone like the Pyramids of Egypt. If any change in the story is introduced, such as Lois learning Superman's secret identity, Otto Binder immediately weasels out of it somehow and we're back to the same-old, same-old.

People get upset when a character is brought back from the dead, as Marvel Girl was in the mid-eighties. Why? Because it's a cheat to reverse something when you think something profound just happened. The "pull the rug out from under" gimmickry of the early period of the Weisenger Years triggers the EXACT SAME aggrivation as learning "Bucky is being brought back from the dead."

This is why I get frustrated with the 1950s, despite Wayne Boring's spectacular art. Superman in the 1990s might have been a neverending mindless action movie, but Superman in the 1950s was a neverending, mindless sitcom.

This is why "Imaginary Stories" were both necessary and inevitable: if nothing ever really changes, if in the end nothing ever really does happen, of course the audience has a strong desire for things that are world-cracking.

It's funny: I bought my SUPERMAN SHOWCASE VOL. 1 (most of which are written by Otto Binder) and my GREEN LANTERN SHOWCASE around the same time, and I've read the GREEN LANTERN showcase to the point its dog-eared and tattered (and I'm thinking about buying another) but my SUPERMAN SHOWCASE VOL. 1 is somewhere up on my shelf, in pristine shape.

Well, the early Silver Age was the time of Levittown and "I Remember Mama" on TV.  People wanted sameness and stability along with their Cold War. ;D

My favorite cazy aspect about the classic Silver Age is that Superman could be defeating a true menace in one issue and having a completely nuts adventure in in pages of Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen at the same time.

Since I rarely bought Jimmy Olsen and never bought a Lois Lane, its fun to discover the stuff today.

You mean the same Otto Binder who created Supergirl, Bizarro, The Legion of Super-Heroes, Krypto, Brainiac, Streaky the Supercat, and even Beppo the Supermonkey! The same Otto Binder who brought Captain Marvel to the highest heights of Greatest? Who created Mary Marvel and Black Adam?

"Otto Binder was a kind of titan, a precursor of the gods, because he came up with basic primordial forms that later writers would perhaps polish to a greater luster. But Binder hewed them out of solid rock. He was mining the raw material. Later writers owed him a tremendous debt." - Alan Moore

That guy?

Are you sure?

You tend to get your names wrong a lot.

Not to mention THE PETRIFIED SPACEMAN!

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Petrified_Spaceman

>>and the the Space Cat Patrol Agency!!!

I love them both, but they were extremely silly!

Those issues were selling about 700,000 copies each!

I love all the super pets, but of course I know it's silly! It's a comic book! Comics are suppose to be fun and weird, which in turn makes them more fun. For my money anyway Wink
<<

And the Space Canine Patrol Agents (including their chant), renamed as the "Dog Star Patrol", are appearing daily as part of the "Krypto" cartoon on Cartoon Network, to boot... :-)

One of the most ridiculous aspects I can think of include the Kryptonopolis "smog control" device in the early 60's retelling of Superman's origin story. Similarly, the plan of Superman (in the story where he thinks he's dying of Virus X) to melt the Antarctic ice to make room for future human development. Though these stem from a pre-modern-ecology-movement point of view.... :-)

Speaking of pre-modern-ecology-movement point of view, Stumbo the Giant, which I believe was a back-up Little Lotta character, would eat Whale Sandwiches, which seems sorta creepy now, but at the time was something you''d just expect from a giant

another thing, is the treatment that criminals are given in "superman of 2945" tales..

hit with a ray that makes them slow down to snails so they cant commit crimes due to the slowness... this seems incredably inhumane to me.... i mean the modern version would just be breaking someones legs

In retrospect it is the characterization of Lois and, secondarily, Superman's treatment of her, that are ridiculous.  I love those old Lois Lanes but still...

On the other hand, she was portrayed just as often as a resourceful, successful, self-assured careerwoman.

Jimmy Olsen's portrayed level of doofusness -- the compare/contrast with Kirby's Jimmy Olsen portrayed competence was profound.

lois lane was so obbsessed with finding out supermans identity im pretty sure it counts as a personality disorder...

Why would ordinary people conclude Superman had a secret identity in the first place?  The writers knew, and the implausibility of that disguise drove 'em nuts and caused all kinds of contorted scripting.

---

Everyone in the Phantom Zone had nothing to do for eternity but float around disembodied and watch Superman and plot against him, all know his secrety identity from this exercise, but none could ever figure out upon escape how to make that knowledge work for them or against Superman????

---

Red K stories were invariably ridiculous, but they're better than the "Imaginary Stories" (while serving the same basic prupose) because they fit into continuity.  Maybe the most outlandish aspect of Red K is that it would affect all superbeings the same way in the same story, but (supposedly) never the same way twice, and never more than once, yet were "completely random" in effect.  Talk about a plot device.

Recovered Red K (and its catalogued effects) would actually make a great weapon against Kryptonian criminals, when you think about it.

You don't believe,but i love this era.                                                           (http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/337/imagech9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us) (http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1940/posterac3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us) (http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9599/12964007cy4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)                                                                                                           (http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/9171/12964010jt9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us) (http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3456/12964017zm3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)(http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/2691/12964026zd6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/404/12964029hz9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

A "S" letter in the sand...  Boys,those were "Happy days"!                                                                                (http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/5030/12964009sb2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Who said that in those beatifull days not were many "changes"?                               

(http://img21.imagevenue.com/loc547/th_42740_1027_4_052_123_547lo.jpg) (http://img21.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42740_1027_4_052_123_547lo.jpg)(http://img152.imagevenue.com/loc407/th_42769_1027_4_053_123_407lo.jpg) (http://img152.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42769_1027_4_053_123_407lo.jpg)(http://img163.imagevenue.com/loc505/th_42774_1027_4_059_123_505lo.jpg) (http://img163.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42774_1027_4_059_123_505lo.jpg)(http://img13.imagevenue.com/loc597/th_42779_1027_4_076_123_597lo.jpg) (http://img13.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42779_1027_4_076_123_597lo.jpg)
(http://img148.imagevenue.com/loc535/th_42785_1027_4_080_123_535lo.jpg) (http://img148.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42785_1027_4_080_123_535lo.jpg)         http://img173.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=43090_1027_4_088_123_556lo.jpg   
         

"Why would ordinary people conclude Superman had a secret identity in the first place?"

Does anyone recall what story it was where it's specifically mentioned, that Superman doesn't have a secret identity because he shows his face? 

Maybe that Silver Age series?   I'll try and look

My guess is that the whole Secret Identity fiasco started in the Adventures of Superman television series; with Lois always ribbing Clark; and from there it carried over into the comics.

(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/5030/12964009sb2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

I'd buy this comic, but ONLY if it was Superman punching Pat Boone in the face over and over.

You know, Rock n' Roll was actually kinda cool once. Why must Whitey ruin everything? (Except of course, for Elvis and the Stones. And even Elvis, like Bill Clinton, is an honorary black man).

REVENGE IS LIFE!
DEATH TO PAT BOONE!


Okay, in the interests of fairness, Otto Binder is probably not 100% responsible for the direction Superman took in the 1950s, with its emphasis on unchangeability, stories centered around a temporary gimmick like Superman briefly turning old or Jimmy Olsen transforming into a genie, and sitcom-esque plots with Superman's secret identity. Editorship had a lot to do with it; Bill Finger for instance, wrote vastly different work for Superman than he did under other editors.

(Though Bill Finger got a few Superman stories that weren't based on the usual fifties nonsense, like "Superman vs. the Futuremen," my old pal Richard Levins's favorite story. It featured villains actually central to the plot, adventure/science fiction elements, Superman using his brain for something other than tricking his friends, and in general was much more reminiscent of the Mac Raboy FLASH GORDON comic strips of the same era.)

And yes, there are a few Otto Binder stories that I do like: for instance, the original "Kryptonite Man" tale, but the reason I like this one is because it is so very UNLIKE Binder's usual output: it was a story centered around a charismatic central villain, Luthor (not an interchangeable gangster who wants to take advantage of Superman now being rainbow colored or half-ant or whatever), and has the adventure/science fiction tale be the MAIN story instead of a secondary story to provide momentum for whatever the gimmick is.


Four things:

1) Supergirl's best stories would come under much better writers later on, NOT under Binder;

2) Supergirl is such an obvious idea to do that I'm not sure how much credit to give ANYONE for her "creation;"

3) Supergirl, as she was initially envisioned, was a pretty lousy idea. "Linda Lee?" If she's Superman's cousin, why doesn't she have Kent in there somewhere? Oh, that's right: the L.L. thing, which became tiresome around the time when cavemen drew Superman comics on cave walls. The point here is, Supergirl was not incorporated into Superman's life at all; it took later writers to make her something less than an afterthought, and naturally the first thing to go was the orphanage and the LL name.

4) Actually, the example of Supergirl proves my point. The reason she is so famous is because unlike all 500,000 of Binder's stories, he didn't excuse her away with a lame gimmick. He didn't have "Supergirl" actually be Lois Lane in disguise trying to trick Superman into revealing his secret identity. It's telling the very first thing Kara said in that debut story was "Look again, Superman! I'm REAL!" Well, imagine that! Something real actually being introduced!


If it was his idea, he should be brought up for war crimes.

And even the best Streaky story, "Revolt of the Super-Pets," was by Jim Shooter, where Streaky actually had a personality: vain, interested in creature comforts, and prestige.

...and what IS Streaky's gender, anyway?


Well, I'll be a three-eyed Kryptonian babootch, he DID technically create the Legion, didn't he?

Like Supergirl, all of the great Legion stories were written by other people (ahem, Hamilton, Shooter, Bates, Levitz), not Binder.

Ideas are nothing  Execution is everything. Yes, the Legion concept was fascinating and had promise even in the FIRST appearance, but it was the imagination of fans, not what was on display, that aroused curiosity. In other words, the reason the Legion was popular was because fans were more creative than Binder was.

As time went on, Binder's style of storytelling just wasn't appropriate for the Legion. Quick Legion trivia: what story followed after Jim Shooter's immortal Sun-Eater and Adult Legion tales? Was it another classic tale of the Legion vs. a grandiose, incredible villain?

No. It was an Otto Binder tale called "The Six-Legged Legionnaire" featuring Lana Lang as Insect Queen, and an unmemorable villain named Oggar-Kan who was never seen again. Instead of Legion heroism, except for some cool shapeshifting by Chameleon Boy, it was all about Lana saving the day by turning into various insects. It was quite clear from this story that Binder's creation outgrew him: it didn't feel like the Legion story at all.


Man, you KNOW what I'm going to say here.  ;)

Here's how I feel about Captain Marvel: take every objection I have to Superman in his worst decade, the 1950s, and multiply it times a billion.

Captain Marvel was the wrong comic to become the blueprint for Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman the 1950s. The pulp-era grit and haunting, weird adventure spirit that typefied the Golden Age hero strips was flushed down the toilet in service of intelligence-insulting, ridiculous whimsy.

People think only Batman was adrift at this time. But almost every criticism of Batman at this time could also be leveled at Superman, too: he was so caught up in using his powers to teach Lois a lesson that he forgot to, y'know, fight villains.

Fighting actual villains! What a concept!

Thank Vishnu that Gil Kane was doing Westerns, Kubert was doing war comics, Kirby was doing monster books, and Julie Schwartz was starting his sci-fi inspired books like FLASH and ATOM, because otherwise this whole decade was a washout for superguys.


Oh my God, YES! Glad to see I'm not the only one that thought that was an insanely bad idea. "Let's melt the ice caps by creating a second sun!"

Apart from the large-scale ecological insanity, could you imagine a world without night? Sure, crime would decrease but the suicide rate would quadruple!

I like Shooter's Legion stories fine but I'll take the Insect Queen's powers over the impossible more than usually impossible power of Nemesis Kid anyday.  Even as a little kid I laughed at the power "to somehow create the ability to defeat any one opponent".

the whole supermans secret identity thing... i think superman used to tell them lots!! even as Superboy!!

so that makes a superman a narcissist right? the fact that he is telling people he has a secret id just to entice them into trying to find it out...

oh and i remember one story from the recent showcase stories, where superman is trying to make an old man laugh and finally does it by accidently revealing his secret identity and knocking himself out or something... and the old guy laughs at the fact that he could ever be superman...
...
...
and any plausablity of supermans id went out of the window with that issue, i know it was written for kids, but really any young uns reading this must have felt a bit patronised as well? considering every other issue was about "is clark kent superman?"

thats the reason when they revealed why nobody makes the connection was so... strange and contrived, they didnt really have a choice


(btw anyone read the Jim Jordan stories from the green lantern showcase which mock the whole lois-clark thing? its suprising that even back then DC was mocking its own work)

I have to say that the pre Crisis Superman is pretty cool in all media fourms all the way back to 1938. Around 1984-5 before Crisis ruined everything they were doing a lot om comical stories again mostly in Action. Anyways the fifties and sixties Superman basically gave us the version most commonly known about even today. Comics did sell 700.000 an issue then and hell find me 700,000 stores that have them now. Since they started costing more then a buck a peice nobody carries them. I digress. The funniest thing about Silver Age Superman....His occasinal bursts of temper were good. I remember a story where to make a baby sized Superman grow normal sized Lois has to piss him off. She does and he says he hates her an has a real tanrum until he realises she saved his hide. Funny stuff. I also like how much he plays both Lois and Lana against each other. Very much a man on an ego trip. All in a lighthearted fun way though.

Oh,you are severe."Love letter in the sand" is not bad. ;D But i agree that in late 50s-early 60s were many guys betters that Pat Boone....Neil Sedaka and Paul Anka for example.  ;)  Seriously,when we talk about Weisenger era stories and theirs ridiculous aspect we forget the most important thing: how many years had the readers of Superman in 50s and early 60s?

Pat Boone is one of my favorite short entries at Supermanica...

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Pat_Boone

And I don't know, Don Rickles or Muhammad Ali aren't that more serious.

>>Streaky the Supercat

If it was his idea, he should be brought up for war crimes.

And even the best Streaky story, "Revolt of the Super-Pets," was by Jim Shooter, where Streaky actually had a personality: vain, interested in creature comforts, and prestige.

...and what IS Streaky's gender, anyway?
<<

Streaky was a male---presumably confirmed in the TV "Krypto the Superdog" cartoon, which features Streaky in most episodes (where he acts somewhat as described above, but has some of the best lines on the show...).

Yeah, so I like the cartoon. :-)

yeah we all know that these comics where written for the little uns... but that doesnt stop them being silly... and the sillyness is why people like the pre crisis superman i think, how superman live sin a la de da plesantville with his family of superpets and all criminals dress smart and think mostly about theft rather than any truely horrible crimes. its a nice world to visit, a world where all of our problems could be solved by men in spandex getting in to fights (a la "heroes against hunger"). its like in one of my favourite superman stories (the 4 page one from the 40s, kinda like the first superman imaginary story) has superman smashing in on Hitler and arresting him, then popping over to russia and nabbing Stalin before taking them to be judged!!!!

amazing!! superman stopped one of the most horrible wars in less time than it takes him to convince jimmy olsen that he isnt Clark Kent. even if this DID happen in the real world it wouldnt stop the wars completely (i think the nazi party would struggle along without Hitler, at least for a while)

and then theres the other side of enjoying sillyness at looking at it though cynical, modern adult eyes...
i mean Jimmy Olsen... there were about three stories about him dressing up in drag to solve crimes... or in one story he just dresses up as a woman to go hang out with his fan club!

that goes on the list of fun silly stuff..

the fact that Jimmy Olsen would have a fan club  ;D

these fellows?

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/The_Jimmy_Olsen_Fan_Club

Well,you have touched  many interesting arguments.I think that in front at an incredibly powerful characters like Superman an author can choose two roads: Or dip it in reality or ignore the reality.But the first road is full of dangers.Yes,Superman can arrest Hitler,Stalin,and all others dictators,can stop a world war or an tsunami,can defeat poverty,epidemics,terrorism.It could win in few days in Vietnam,and now in Iraq and Afganistan.But which would be result of all this "realism"? An utopic world far to reality much more that the 50s "Pleasantville".The fact is that Superman never has been real;Yes,when in the beginnings he was "only" able to jump an house run more fast that a train, or  raise a car,you could give to his stories a coat of varnish of realism.but with a charapters that fly more fast of the light,survives at atomic explosions and moves a little planet with the hands....realism?? reality??? The 50s.Ok,with the eyes of adult readers of today those stories can seems silly (but the 90s story of Superman death was idiot too in a different manner).But we must remembers some important things:Those histories were not for people of our age,but for  kids (and in 50s kids were kids,not little adults).Second,Superman (with Batman and Wonder Woman) has been the only survivor of the "great massacre of the golden age").So maybe his comics  were not so silly for those times and those readers.P.S.I would love live in Pleasantville.Is my dream. ;)

Supergirl going out with Dick Malverne.

Bizarre, sure. Entertaining? Heck yeah.

And if you think Weisinger era stuff is whack, take a gander of some of the Julie Schwartz titles. 

Im still deciphering a Strange Adventures with a dinosaur skeleton come to life by a hidden race survivor that was entombed for millennia.  The bones were of his beloved pet Bronty.  And that's still just the tip of the iceberg.   

Imaginative fun for all.

And what's wrong with Dick Malverne?  I wept when I saw his demise in Tim Sale's Solo.

You mean like that story where Perry White gets superpowers from a cigar?

One of the weirdest tales that sticks in my mind (I think it's late Weisinger) is the one where crooks plan to have Superman destroy Metropolis.  They arrange things such that each of his hands will be coated with different chemicals that, when they contact each other, will result in the equivalent of a thermonuclear explosion.  Superman is scheduled to be at a parade and will most likely have to applaud as various people pass by.

Superman then films himself causing a staged nuclear holocaust and broadcasts it to the the crooks' television set to trick them into thinking their plan worked.

To para-quote Dr. Greg House, "7's go with 7's, 3's go with 3's, and so on and so on."  Supergirl was like, a 110, of course, but Linda Danvers was still a solid 8.5 [when Mooney was on].  Dick Malverne was...not. 

Other silliness [from a nearly infinite list]...Jimmy Olsen knowing the secret identities of Batman and Robin, but not Superman...the Sleeping Doom story in which Lois tries to stay awake for a week because aliens who live in the space diamond in the broach Superman gave her will possess her and take over the earth if she sleeps, yet not only does she just not take the thing off, she keeps putting the broach back on whenever she switches clothes...Jimmy counting Super-feats to help him fall asleep [kinda creepy]...Luthor being able to invent anything he sets his mind to, yet somehow being unable to discover a cure for baldness - or even the decent toupee...members of the LSH being in the Superman Day parade [think about it]...Superman and Batman playing pranks on each other... 

Lois=Dick.
Math.

superman, supergirl =lois/dick

Not my accounting.

lori-Jerro and so on........

wait... jimmy olsen knows the dynamic duos identites but not supes????


that just breaks a few walls down... it makes no sense in a plot way... i mean.. .argh!! but then it makes sense, since everyone instinctively knew each others secret identites back then... in fact when i read the green lantern/flash teamup in showcase... i was suprised that they actually had to reveal their identites to each other!

how about the famous superman/orson welles team up? gee i bet the kids where writing in for that, desperate to have them fighting nazi martians who were pacifists at heart,

just thought of another one, not so much silly as dodgy...

valtho island... where all the black kryptons live.... it sounds like a white supremacists/separatists dream...

i guess originally it was supposed to be a sort of "liberal" thing, kids wrote in and asked "why are there only white kryptonians?" so they wrote in valtho to explain that they all live on this island... but like superbabys two wives and the kryptonian superman fan who was desperate to mimic superman in every way, in hindsite it is kind of... well dodgy

 8) Interesting how the so called silliness of a ancient era can be transmutated in a fun window to the past. I like the Weisinger era very much.
 ??? Gostaria de saber se há algum colega brasileiro neste forum.

I think what he means is that Jimmy knew Batman and Robin's identities, but he did not know Superman's.  Of course Superman knew who they were.  The question is why a goofy teenager in Metropolis would be in on the biggest secret in Gotham.

In itself, this does have some story possibilities, especially if Superman doesn't know that Jimmy knows Batman's secret.  Sort of like when Pete Ross used to help Clark hide his identity without letting Clark know that he *knew* his identity.  I always loved that stuff.

But aside from that one Neal Adams-drawn World's Finest I can't remember Jimmy's special knowledge ever coming up. 

that reminds me of alot of brave and bold comics, where batman teamed up with other heroes who somehow knew his identity

maybe robin is a lil blabber mouth!

What does Jimmy know or doesn't know and why all comes together in this classic tale:

http://superman.nu/tales2/phantompal/

After you read it, it not silly but it makes perfect sense.

No really!

Even in the frequently wacky "Weisingerverse" I always thought this was extremely far-fetched.

Batman and Robin tell Jimmy Olsen their secret identities, but otherwise not even their closest friends, including Commissioner Gordon?

Yeah, right.

I think Edmond Hamilton, in the pages of World's Finest Comics in the mid-1960s came up with this dumb idea.

Much as I greatly admire Hamilton as probably the greatest Superman (and better than average Batman and Legion author) writer of the 1950s and 1960s - he wrote a high proportion of the best Superman stories of this era, in my opinion - I think this is one of his few failings.

I can't recall any post-1970 story where Jimmy displayed this knowledge, so the idea may have been quietly dropped ...

I can.

The Superfriends comic.

Jimmy used the knowledge of Batman and Robin's ID to help the Superfriends defeat Felix Faust.

i think supermonkeys got the bright idea, jimmy learnt it while he was in the phantom zone...

sure he  acts all high and mighty in the end of the story, but he isnt above learning OTHER HEROES identites even though it "might be tortured out of him"

jeez, jimmy olsen, what a hypocrite

I think you kind of miss the point of that story, poor Jimmy was being serious! But of course no one ever takes Jimmy seriously :( ;)

I have long thought that the Super Friends is about as non-canonical in relation to the regular DC Universe as you can get ...

and just when I was gonna nominate the series for canonization in Supermanica! Party pooper!
 ;)

yes and no, it did introduce those cool international heroes The Global Guardians, which were actually brought into continuity in this issue:

http://comics.org/details.lasso?id=36402

More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Guardians

and here:
http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/cosmic/globalguardians.html