Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Of course in design it's Shaped like an S Because he's Superman but there are various comic-explanations as to why he wears it and how it was conceived

Movie: It was a Family Crest
Byrne MOS era: Plain Flat out lame Afterthought that S stands for Superman (ironically the same reason in real-life why he wears it)
Birthright: Kryptonian Symbol of Hope
Secret Origin: Krypton of Hope AND Family Crest
Pre-Crisis: A Symbol from a Dream of Jonathan Kent given to him by DC's judeo-christian god (known as "The Presence" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presence_(DC_Comics) )

The Best has to be a Tie between The Pre-crisis and Waid's Birthright.

Simple story that works in both comic book logic and real one is.. Superman is not an arrogant buffoon, he's not gonna wear an S on his chest just because he's named "Superman", there has to be a reason to it

Mark Waid's version has that reason to be that it is a Kryptonian symbol of hope, and that simply merits something to be proud of and worn) True it makes it a Kryptonian Symbol that Coincidentally looks like an S but we can use the glasses disguise logic for that, though it's not the only symbol of Hope in the DCU, there's the Blue Lantern insignia of course.

The Pre-crisis version had Jor-El seeing the symbol in a dream that he would use it on Kal-El as Superboy as though he was destined to be "The Chosen One" (Read the Pre-crisis Annual The Day the Cheering Stopped) and he would use the sword of Superman forged from the book of Genesis itself, which carries that crest as well..

It's obvious.. who would put the dream in Jonathan Kent's head but the DCU god AKA The Presence.  :)


Geoff Johns tried to emulate Waid's Reason of a symbol of hope, however he also used the Movie's Family crest reasoning and although it does not really contradict each other.. it makes the House of El look selfish and Sanctimonious (what gives their family the right to have the planetary symbol of hope for themselves when there are also others who might have a claim to it as much as they would have)


The Worst is Byrne's version, because it's just an S because he was named Superman clark said in the final pages of MOS #1 "Pa and I came up with this unique design of a stylized S " WTF, and clark is smiling.. I'd imagine myself wearing a T-Shirt haveing a Stylized "R" for Rugal 3:16 but that maybe because of my personality

Superman  is way too humble (and not that simplistic) to come up with something that he secretly hopes "Hey Miss if yopu see this symbol, be sure to be reminded it's me, just me, nothing else"

I think the simplest and most obvious reason is that the S stands for Superman.

In "superman braniac",  when braniac said hhis costume was useless, superman replied it was a combination of the El family symbol and the colour's of the kryptonian flag. I say that is the best as itshows he wears the symbol of El with pride and cherishes his birthright.
Yeah, it also is a "s", so that's even better. 

Being a fan of the Silver Age, I prefer that Jor-El wore that big sunburst on his chest. Which you could say represents Rao. Other Kryptonians wore other geometric shapes on their chests, like squares and triangles.

I'd settle for a compromise, where initially Superman/boy wore a pentagon on his chest--which would be some potent symbol from Krypton. And then once everyone started calling him Superboy or Superman, he decided to put a stylized S inside that pentagon.

The idea that the S happens to stand for Superman, but in actuality stands for something completely different in Kryptonese, just doesn't sit well with me

don't forget its also a snake trapped in a diamond!!! (according to Kevin J Anderson)...oh wait everyone forgot that??? fine whatever

I prefer that the suit was designed by the kents out of his blankets. I could kinda buy the dream/sword of superman angle but it seems a bit overly complicated

S stands for Superman seems logical enough (it is his name).

India Ink.. Then that means you prefer John Byrne's reasoning.. S is for Superman that simple.. though again personally to me if we took that reasoning to the story and not just the conceptualization, he looks conceited and not humble in doing so :p

BTW what's your take on the silver age reasoning of the S??  With the DCU god AKA The Presence implanting that symbol in Jonathan Kent's dream? that's not a Kryptonian symbolism.

Wasn't the Jonathan Kent thing a late story? There was a lot of stuff about Superman's origin that was apocrypha. I think if a story is repeated twice then it has a strong claim to canon--but there were a lot of one-off stories.

Byrne's reason for the S standing for Superman is clear--because his Superman was not supposed to know about his origins when he first debuted. So he wouldn't know about any El family crest. But wasn't it later established that this was an old Kent emblem?

I agree, and I also think it is ridiculous that in Superman movies and TV shows such as Smallville Kryptonian characters like Jor-El wear the "S" symbol on their chest, or use it as symbol of any kind.

To each his own

I understand that different preferences takes precedence over other arguments

However at least for me the "I'm gonna put an S on my chest that stands for superman, even though that makes me look like a BRAGGART and i'm supposed to be a humble Boyscout as they call it" is something that doesn't sit well with me much more than a coincidence about a symbol just happened to resemble an "S" but again to each his own

And the Jonathan Kent thing Pre-crisis was late in the story but it was done unbelievably well and I think it adds to the pre-crisis mythos in which Supes himself was the Presence's chosen one (hence sword of Superman)

Anyone who dresses in blue tights and a red cape...in public...isn't exactly a paragon of humility in the first place.  So calling himself Superman works for me.

Maybe one way positive idea Byrne had is that he did some super-feat without the suit and everyone started calling him, "Superman," so he said, "Yeah, I like that," and made a costume around it.  Just as valid an idea would be that he purposely adopted the look from Day One as a kind of psychological warfare.  Just as Bruce Wayne creates an outfit designed to prey on fear, Kal makes one designed to inspire awe and hope.  Yes, "Superman" has some unfortunate connotations thanks to Nietzsche and Hitler, but Kal defines the title in his own way through his actions, as if to say, "Look, people, this is what a real Superman does; he doesn't rule, he helps."  The follow-through comes in "The Last Days of Superman," when he leaves what he thinks will be his last message for the world: "Do good for others and every man can be a Superman."

Or look at it this way; since Metropolis is full of people completely fooled by a pair of non-prescription glasses, maybe all that color plus a giant letter is necessary to identify him to such a dim crowd.

"Hey, look!  That guy is flying!  Who IS that?"
"Gee, I don't know...sure is colorful, though, with all that red and blue."
"Yeah, and look at the cape!  Pretty cool..."
"Oh, wait, there's something on his chest...looks like...yes, it's the letter 'S'."
"Ohhhh, it must be Superman, then! Superman starts with 'S'!"
"Oh Riiiiight, THAT flying red-and-blue guy.  Now I get it."

Is Superman humble? I suppose he humbles himself by pretending to be Clark Kent. And sometimes he seems to have a martyr complex. But more often Superman is described as noble.

I don't think we should make too much out of why he wears a big S on his chest. This is just a conceit of comic books where every hero brands himself (it actually bothered me that Spider-Man wore two different spiders on his uniform--it seemed to me that the red stylized spider on the back should look like the black stylized spider on the front--this is how much I had absorbed the logic of comic book branding).

But I think Superman is allowed to be arrogant and self-promoting. If you have to rationalize it, you can say this is part of his act. He makes a show of Superman which has a few benefits: 1. It gets his message out--which acts as a deterrent to crime; 2. It identifies him clearly; 3. It distracts people, thus helping with his disguise.

The spider on Spider-Man's back always looked more like a tick to me.

You make a good point; there's no good reason for any superhero to have a chest emblem, with the possible exception of Green Lantern, for whom it's a badge, and maybe the Fantastic 4, to show unity.  If you're dim enough not to understand that Batman is dressed like a giant bat, it's doubtful the extra bat on his chest is going to help.  Indeed, it's almost as superfluous as the "BATMAN" label they printed on the forehead of those old Halloween masks.

Wasn't there something like that in "the Kents"mini-series by John Ostrander?

According to Byrne, the logo was two fish swimming in opposite directions (!) (the yellow part)

But I prefer this one:

(http://superman.nu/superboy-lives/images/symbol.jpg)

That's cool, and of course when you factor in Superboy, it makes a lot more sense.  It's easier to see a boy of ten or so adopting the logo and "super" prefix than a grown man.  What can come off as arrogant in an adult is often endearing in a youth.

yet a mere S that stands for superman, ( or superboy ) doesn't have as much meaning. Any random heroe could have a large capital letter of their title, yet the best ones have symbol's.
Instead of a B, batman has a bat symbol ( what he represents)
Instead of a GL, green lantern has the symbol of oa ( what he represents )
Instead of a W, wonder woman has a eagle ( what dhe represents...somehow)
So a plain S doesn't show creativity, and the best have symbols.
Insted of " two fish swimming towards each other, john byrne, he has the symbol of El, or krypton ( what he represents, as the last son of krypton)

Which I think anyday is more insapiring than two fish.

Saving Lives
Stopping Crime
Super-Help to those in need

Are indeed a powerful symbolisms meant to represent the S logo from the eyes of a child..

I Guess I Hated it when Byrne's version shows that when they're coming up with the Logo (see last 4 pages of MOS 1) instead of these points being illustrated IT DOES seem he's an Arrogant and Pompous braggart Excited to where his initials on the chest instead of this ellaboration.

BTW im not really a fan of the "Superboy" Name, though im a fan of the character (but that's for another thread)

Whether you agree or not with Waid's Kryptonian Heritage Motif it serves the same purpose whilst at the same time Honoring Krypton, so I feel it's still better than Byrne's mis-represented version (or at least has a poor showing of it)

I Still Say Pre-Crisis Latter point is the best because it Enriches the Mythos somewhat if this was explored further in one story

Creation.. The Sword gets Fashioned with the S Logo
after time goes on Scientist Jor-El Sends his only son to Earth
Kal-El grows up as Clark Kent into a Boy and starts a Superhero career
Jonathan Kent DREAMS about the S logo implanted to him BY the Presence and proposes the idea to Clark
Clark Decides he chooses the S and comes up with
It Stands for Superboy/man
Saving Lives
Stopping Crime
Super-Help to those in need
Then the sword finds him.

again The Presence making Jonathan Kent Dream the S hence destined to be Kal-El's symbol makes him a pivotal creation of the universe and should that have been explored it would have been better.

It does not detract from Superboy's Original intent and Potentially enriches the mythos as well.

The whole "Sword of Superman" idea is yet another example of the late pre-Crisis baloney that led to over-mythologizing and the whole Crisis and modern era of over-thinking in general.

Superman is the greatest individual on Earth. He's super, and hence, the "S".

It didn't take any Bronze Age junk to over-analyze the matter.

You're right, Superboy's "S"-Symbol is kinda cute, rather than arrogant.

But I prefer versions of the mythos that do not have Superboy. I love the character, but if he's Superboy before he's Superman, Superman showing up in Metropolis isn't "MYSTERIOUS SUPERMAN SAVES (whatever)! WHO IS HE?", it's "SUPERBOY MOVES TO METROPOLIS!". Without Superboy, the "S" can't convincingly stand for Superman, I don't think.

My favorite version is the Waid conception of the "S". It's a symbol of hope for all of Krypton, and thanks to the efforts of Kal-El, it's a symbol of hope for Earth as well, and many other planets throughout the galaxy that know of Superman's Never-Ending Battle for Truth and Justice.

The idea that it's merely "S Stands for Superman" seems rather silly to me. He's not that arrogant.

Also: I didn't know about the fish thing, but I remember the one from "the Kents" miniseries. I believe it was an American Indian healing blanket adorned with a snake. I used to prefer that version of it, since it allowed Johnathan Kent to have come up with the symbol, like in MoS, but it still meant something besides "S is for Superman". If it comes down to it, I'd still pick that over "S is for Superman", because I feel like the symbol needs to be something that had a meaning before Clark put it on his chest.

After seeing that shot of Superboy, I was thinking about this--because there are a lot of people who say they prefer a Superboy-less Superman. And I can kind of understand that, because Superboy might take something away from Superman. But in terms of which character makes more sense--I would say Superboy actually makes more sense than Superman (that is if you want comic books to make sense--which is debatable).

It makes sense for Superboy to be a boy scout. This is the boyhood ideal that he's living out. His whole life is a good boy's fantasy. A fancy action costume. Really why wouldn't a kid put his initial on his shirt--and make it really big and loud? We all had ideas we thought were super-cool when we were kids, that we think are rather embarrassing now.

And everything that Superman does is what any kid would do if he had the chance. That's why it's such a great fantasy. Of course, a lot of people criticize Superman for being childish. But you can't really criticize Superboy for being a child--because he is a child!

Ah, but when Superman was created, he wasn't in competition with those characters, was he?  He was THE FIRST.  So the mere fact that any of them have a chest emblem at all means they're all -- every one of them -- paying homage to Superman.  The Phantom is often cited as the first real costumed comic hero, but he didn't have a chest emblem.  Neither did Zorro, John Carter or Flash Gordon.  You could argue Prince Valiant had that "rook" symbol, but I've never figured out how it relates to anything, so it wasn't a very effective one.

If you want to talk about "symbols," I challenge you to find one more powerful and more universally recognized in all of comics than the Big Red S. It's not only more famous than anything in comics, it's right up there with the Coca-Cola brand, the Red Cross and yes, the Christian cross when it comes to recognition around the globe.

It may have been "just a letter" when it started, but it's a heck of a lot more than that, now.  And if Waid and others have scrambled to explain it and make it seem like "something bigger," it's only within the context of the fictional DCU.  In the REAL world, it needs no explanation and it does mean something bigger.


That "Caped Wonder Stuns City" business isn't important at all to me, and I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice it for all the fun I get from Superboy.  Really, it's just one scene out of one story -- the origin -- and if DC was ever interested in telling a story other than the origin -- for the eleventy-billionth time -- they wouldn't need it at all.


But how do they define "childish"?  When I say "childish" I usually mean unreasonable, petulant, willful or foolish.  Superman is none of those things.  What he is, is child-like...in his belief in the basic goodness of mankind, in his confidence that right will win in the end, in his optimism, generosity and kindness.  For modern fandom, and I suppose modern society in general, those are all immature, foolish traits. Real "grown-ups" know the world stinks, that people are no darn good, that everyone's only in it for themselves and that justice equals revenge, period.  In a climate so rife with jaded cynicism, it's no wonder the character no longer resonates.

But consider this: pre-Crisis Superman lost his parents...his homeworld...a whole life that might have been.  Then he lost his adopted parents.  Then he took on the job of protecting the world even though it meant keeping a certain distance from humanity all his life...he was an outsider, forever.  And yet, he kept hope in his heart and spread it to others.  He never used his powers for personal gain, but only to better the world.  He got on with his life and made a positive difference in the Universe.

Compare that to modern Batman, who's expended his talents, health and fortunes in an effort to avenge a wrong done to him when he was a small child...who seems to honestly believe he can remove crime from the face of the Earth, single-handed. by beating up thugs and hoodlums in back alleys.  Or take the Punisher, who doesn't even have that lofty a goal in mind; he just wants to murder every criminal he can find to avenge the loss of his family.  Or Wolverine, who lives, apparently, to start brawls everywhere he goes just to prove he's the toughest man alive.

Consider those guys, the darlings of modern fandom, and then tell me who's childish.

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Well I guess it's my bad that i failed to iterate that this thread was intended to be the best explanation of the symbol within the context of the DCU, i couldn't find the words before so i failed to remember it vividly and thanks nightwing for saying successfully bringing to light what i couldn't get out of the back of my mind.. my error so i'll just learn from this in future threads i make.

Yes S for Superman is a Given it's the branding it's what the casuals who doesn't care about the inner workings can identify with, and it's set in stone

I guess what gets the discussion a little out of sync is the blurring of the two contexts (which again is my fault if i didn't make it clearer)

Still The Pre-Crisis has been for me the Best "In-Universe" Context of the S logo as it pays homage to superman's stature as the center of the DCU and maybe even the chosen one by it's "in-universe" Judo-christian Deity equivalent Plus it doesn't in any way contradict Superboy's Cute Interpretations In-Universe of coming up with the S

True it maybe "The-whole-"Sword-of-Superman"-idea-is-yet-another-example-of-the-late-pre-Crisis-baloney-that-led-to-over-mythologizing-and-the-whole-Crisis-and-modern-era-of-over-thinking-in-general." and With due respect to the person who said that, it's still my opinion and my preference and my tastes taking precedence over other factors that take more priority in other people's tastes so there.

And I Hated John Byrne's Version because his concept "In-universe" just completely echoes the real world context without effort so instead of the Superboy example, he REALLY makes superman look arrogant.

I don't think the "S" is arrogant, in itself.  If anything, the name is arrogant.  

I don't remember how Byrne handled it, but if Clark said something like, "I shall call myself Superman," you could certainly argue he had a big head.  If on the other hand it was Lois, or Perry, or some other commenter who witnessed his pre-costume feats and slapped the label on him, I can see him saying, "Oh well, that's how they know me, so I guess I'll stick with it."  

Of course even that's a problem in the post-Crisis DCU because Superman is no longer the first anything.  By the 1980s, the unified Earth has had super-heroes for over 4 decades, so if they saw a guy with super-strength and the power of flight, they wouldn't say, "It's...it's some kind of...superman!"  No, they'd say something like, "Hey, it's one of those hero characters like in the JSA!"  It's cool and all that he saves the space shuttle, but it's not so amazing that it would make him seem bigger and better than, say, the Alan Scott Green Lantern, the original Starman or even half-helmet Dr Fate.  A guy would have to go pretty far to out-super those super-people, and while post-Crisis Supes may (or may not) eventually get to that point, he certainly wouldn't be there on Day One.  So calling him "Superman," which implies either (a) a wholly new creature above mankind, for which no one yet has a label or (b) a superhero so outrageously awesome that he deserves THE name of names, over the various heroes who've been saving the world for 40 years, makes no sense any way you slice it.  Unless of course it is Lois who first uses the name, and she's thinking with her hormones.

But anyway, let's accept for a moment that he's been saddled with the name and decides to make the best of it.  What kind of symbol, exactly, is he going to use?  Batman gets a bat, Green Lantern gets a guess what.  All well and fine.  What is the symbol for "super"?  A muscular body in silhouette?  The word "Super" with an arrow pointing up to his head? I promise you, anything you come up with is bound to be more "arrogant" than the letter "S."

So maybe you could go with a symbol from Krypton.  But not if you're Byrne, because the whole point of his version is that Krypton means nothing.  He grows up thinking he's from Earth, finds out he's not and says, more or less, "I don't give a rip, I reject my alien heritage.  My home is here."  So in this iteration there's no way he'd ever use a Kryptonian symbol.  In Byrne's take, Krypton is all that's rotten and evil in the universe, a dystopian horrorscape where human beings live hopeless lives of emotional isolation, where babies are born in a lab away from mothers who couldn't care less.

Which leaves us with snakes on blankets and similar foolishness.

Personally, I have a lot less trouble with the "S" than I do with a pair of glasses as a disguise.  When you're talking about comic books, you have to be willing to accept some silliness. In fact, the only thing that's really silly is fans who insist on taking things entirely seriously.