Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Probably mainly having to do with DC politics in the 1960s, but no matter.  I think if you really want to take Superman continuity seriously I kind of think that Alan Moore got it right in emphasizing Superman's friendship with the Legion of Super Heroes in "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?".  I posted this in the Supermanica forum and I may be discounting Superman's relationship with the Justice League of America in the 70s and 80s too much but...


Is this off-base?

i think you should continue with your feelings on doing the legion more indepth, they are more important to superman than the JLA (i think the LSH had more effect in shaping his life) and they are essentially a spinoff, a spinoff that has evolved beyond its inital status mind (kinda like the  buffy vampire slayer tv show... but then it wasnt hard to evolve past that dreck of a movie!)

btw, have you seen the LSH help guide?  its this big file thing that has an issue by issue guide of the legion of superheroes adventures, a problem might be that they concern themselves as post crisis (with all the pocket universe sillyness that dragged it down into a desperate need for a complete rehaul..) it might serve as a good guide

When I first read the title of this thread, I thought it was going to be about all the great times that Superman as an adult aided the Legion, e.g. the Adult Legion tale, the first appearance of the Legion of Super-Villains, and that issue of DC COMICS PRESENTS where a time-lost Legion teams up with Superman...the one occasion where Curt Swan did the 1980s Legion.

As for the importance of Superboy/Superman to the Legion...I agree with you that Superboy plays an indispensable role, but what that role IS, has varied over the years.

In the beginning, the Legion of Super-Heroes was a Superboy spin-off, no different from Supergirl or Bizarro World. These were the Ed Hamilton and Kurt Schaffenberger years when the Legion would battle time-travelling Superman enemies like Lex Luthor. This period lasted far longer than it should have, because EVEN when the Legion got their own enemies and their own identity, with the Weisenger control over the title, it meant that pretty much only Weisenger guys could pop up in guest-shots...which essentially meant Superboy, Supergirl, Krypto, and the rest.

But even in the Ed Hamilton and certainly the Jim Shooter years, the Legion acquired a life of its own, like a kid moving out of his parent's bedroom. There are still important ties, but he's got independence. By this I mean, the Legion built up its own mythology: the Fatal Five, the Adult Legion, Computo, the Dominators, etc. With this, the role of Superboy became a different one. One that is just as vital, however:

Superboy became two things: 1) the marquee name of the book, and more importantly, 2) the point of audience identification, like John the Savage for BRAVE NEW WORLD, or Fry from FUTURAMA. This goes beyond just being a cypher and asking "hey, what's that?" So Saturn Girl or whomever can give exposition...he's the person the audience sees themselves in.

Can the Legion survive without its "star," Superboy? Previously, I said no, it couldn't. Heck, I even busted Gerry Conway and his editors' chops for removing Superboy from the book back in 1980. But I've started to change my mind on the subject, because the Legion has, at this point in its existence, so much love and so much of an audience, and so much of an identity APART from the Super-Mythos, that Superboy isn't as necessary as he once was.

I owe Conway and the rest an apology for this.

Superboy is very important to Legion history, but his role is a set of training wheels that can now come off.

Think of it like this...in the beginning, Lorne Michaels wanted Albert Brooks to be the "regular" host of SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE, because he didn't think anybody would want to watch a show with unknown comedians. But the reason SNL never "got" a regular host e'er after, was because the so-called unknowns, Bill Murray, Chevy Chase and the rest BECAME people that the audience would want to watch by themselves.

The Legion, post-ADVENTURE, is very much like this. Heck, even Superboy's traditional role as cypher/audience identification isn't as necessary as it once was, because we the reader, read the book because we care very much about the inner lives of Phantom Girl, Ultra Boy, etc.

Does that mean the Legion and Superboy aren't important to each other? No. Superboy guest-starring is quite a thrill. But at this point, Superboy doesn't HAVE to be there for the Legion to be readable and to "work."

On the subject of Karate Kid trying to tackle Superboy...yeah, that was a rockin' moment that characterized Val Armorr pretty well as a sometimes hothead that occasionally bites off more than he can chew, but what is it with Martial Artists trying to take on Super-Powerhouses, anyway? The most shocking moment of the Englehart AVENGERS is when Mantis took down Thor, a deity of a major religion, with pretty much one nerve punch  to a vital cluster (which e'er after established Mantis as someone not to be messed with, if you can take on the most powerful Avenger with ONE PUNCH on your very first day).

(Though that moment was pretty famous, it overshadow a later moment in that issue, where Mantis brought down Captain America with the most sexually suggestive scissors move ever.)

Incidentally, Karate Kid and Projectra, Jimmy Shooter's "homegrown" Legionnaires are my personal favorites, because they were the first Legionnaires to have real definite personalities (with the POSSIBLE exception of Saturn Girl's ball-busting feminism). Later on, KK would be used not unlike Hawkeye is in AVENGERS: except instead of Hawkeye firing that one-in-a-million arrow shot that saves everybody, Karate Kid has the "Luke Skywalker vs. Death Star" moment, where it's the karate chop that saves everybody, as he did when he broke a giant energy chain surrounding the earth (!) created by Grimbor the Chainsman with one chop (it's no coincidence Roy Thomas wrote both stories).

I would argue the role of Superboy to the Legion is like that of a parent (Superboy) to a child (the Legion). Superboy gave birth to the Legion. Superboy raised the Legion. But after a little while, the Legion has to "grow up" and become its own comic, with its own enemies, supporting cast, and world that often doesn't include Superman-elements like Lex Luthor or Kryptonite.

That doesn't mean the parent and child can't see each other for special occasions (like Thanksgiving or Passover), and because Superboy "raised" the Legion, there will always be a connection and goodwill and the influence of one upon the other...but Legion as a comic did what Supergirl and other "Superman Family" titles never did: move out of the parent's house.

So, does that answer your question? I think Superboy was absolutely essential in the early days, equally essential later on in "adolescence" though the role is different and Legion starts to break away from Mom and Dad and be independent (the later Hamilton and Swan years), helpful in "early adulthood" when the Legion goes to Superboy's house to do laundry every weekend (the Cary Bates years), and not needed at all in Legion's adulthood (the Paul Levitz era).

Well, I'm not sure like the Legion needed to grow up, because the earlier stories made it clear that Superman and Supergirl continued to be friends with the Legion and interact with the adult Legion.  That's why it seems like a cradle to grave relationship to me.  As a matter of fact its downright weird how the Super Villains, the adult Legion, and the teen Legion continued to operate on only 3 time lines, the "present", the teen Legion time, and the somewhat later Adult/Super Villain time.  These folks could all drop off in any time they chose.

And even after Mort retired, its odd to me that the Legion and the Justice League never checked in with one another.  If you count the teen and adult Legions along with the League, here are like 50 heroes that can travel to any time they want.

I admit I'm no Bronze Age fan but I don't sense the tightness of Superman or the Superman family with the League other than his Batman friendship.

Actually, the Legion and JLA did meet once---in a mid-70's JLA-JSA teamup (the three teams fight Mordru and the Three Demons [Abnegezar, Ghast, and Rath]):

http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=31506&zoom=4

http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=31609&zoom=4

Incidentally, that JLA/JSA/Legion team-up was written by none other than "Stainless" Steve Englehart during his ten-issue run.


You're absolutely right - Superboy and Supergirl are clearly shown to maintain their connection to the Legion and they maintain their membership, so I don't think its possible to divorce them from the Legion completely, considering their historical importance and role in the Legion.

What I am saying, though, is that if a writer wanted to put Superboy on the inactive roster for a little while, the Legion wouldn't come down like a house of cards conceptually (would ANYONE want to read BATMAN AND THE OUTSIDERS without Batman?).

What I also am saying is that, yes, the Legion did start off as a spin-off of Superman, but the Legion has grown to the point where it has its own identity, their own villains and world, and a connection to the Superman mythos is not all that vital, either.


Yeah, absolutely. Clearly the Legion is more important to Superman, and I think I've made the observation before that Superman's participation in League stories feels more like an extension of the Batman/Superman team-up.

The reason the Legion is so incorporated into Superboy's life, whereas the League is not with Superman, I suspect, is that Legion started off as a Superman spin-off, so obviously it could be placed into his life much more easily.

Then again, Englehart characterized Superman as someone that was something of a reactionary, a guy that was there at the beginning and is very concerned about League tradition and integrity.

For me, The Legion is more of a big brother than a son to Superboy in its earliest incarnation.  When Superboy encounters the Legion initially, the adventure is characterized as the first time he has encountered other, more experienced young heroes.  They lead him to understand that he is creating a legacy by his actions in the 20th Century and therefore has a responsibility to future generations.  They even outsmart him for awhile and seem superior until he "proves" himself. 

Later, they give Superboy a sense of family where he functions as one among equals --people he can relate to who are different from most of the people he has encountered in the 20th Century.  He is even sometimes superfluous --Mon-El and Ultraboy have essentially the same abilities.  I sometimes feel that he uses his time-travel adventures as a form of escapism (like reading a comic book) --leaping into an adventure that in some ways, because it doesn't take place in the "real world", has less consequences.  Heck, he can even take a backseat if he wants to!

Superboy's relationship with the Legion is not always clear cut.  At times, he acts the hero (Father?) when he must be totally freaked out and out of his element.  He is the hero of heroes whose reputation precedes him.  He must act even more grownup than he does in the 20th C (where he is admittedly VERY grownup compared to most teenagers in terms of abilities and responsibilities).  He often takes charge, leads, or saves the day.

At other times, he is as Julian says, a reader stand-in, the stranger-in-a-strange-land/Fry-in-Futurama figure.  (Incidentally, Fry is the only other character in serial fiction that I can think of, with the possible exception of Alley Oop, who plays this Superboy role of an integrated member of a future society.)  As well, as a member of a group of equals, he can enjoy intimacy and the fun teenager things (like dating or telling people his secret i.d.) that he can never enjoy at home.   He can relax and let his hair down.  Something he only does later in his Fortress/Kandor or when around an adult Kara or (maybe) the JLA.

The idea of Superman leaving the Legion behind as an adult, like they were a youthful indulgence or fantasy, is kind of sad but a great analogy.  I just saw Pan's Labyrinth and this theme of "childish things" is really weighing on me.  Alan Moore used the trope in the Miracleman stories when he retconned the 1950s Miracleman adventures into a scientifically-induced dream state imagined by the sleeping heroes: the only way to explain how the heroes could fly to Neptune to get some flowers or use magic was to say it was the fever dream of a young boy.  I can almost imagine I read a story about when the Legion visit an adult Superman and he laughs at them, thinking they are trying to hoax him with a story about a club of teenage superheroes from the far-future who live in an upside-down rocketship and have names like Brainiac 5 and Lightning Boy.  Sort of like a grown-up Peter Pan who has left Neverland behind and forgotten it.

The Legion was always important to the Superboy/Superman mythology.  Both suffered when the ties were cut.

This is true, now that I think about it.  But my point still stands: that in the early days, Legion was an extension of the Superman Mythos: That first story, we had Superman visit a future version of Smallville and Metropolis, for instance.

Though Superboy ought to be important to Legion history as an individual, I am not 100% against the idea of the Legion being inspired by superheroism in general instead of by a single person, at least at this point where the Legion is well-established. At first, it baffled me why it is, for his very first story arc, Geoff Johns used Mordru as a JSA enemy. Then the reason came in a brilliant flash later on, during the rockin' magic duel between Dr. Fate and Mordru.

Doctor Fate and Mordru battled so hard that they were whooshed through various eras, and one was the Legion's future.

"Look, Mordru!" Doctor Fate said. "The JSA has started something that can never be undone. Inspired by their predecessors, they will stop you, time and again."


Interesting observation. That because the future is such a never-never land, there's an element of escapism for Superboy when visiting the Legion.

Incidentally, this is a pretty good explanation for just why, except for one stint as Deputy Leader, Superboy never really was a terribly active Legionnaire.


I agree with this but only to a certain extent: that there is a very tragic element to the relationship of Superboy to the Legion, one not specifically stated because it doesn't have to be: eventually, he has to leave them at some point for good. In the Adult Legion story, Superman hadn't returned to the future for some time.

But I don't think Superman would ever laugh at the Legion, because of the Legion's inherent dignity and prestige. He'd sooner laugh at the Justice League. Sure, Matter Eater Lad is a pretty weird character that might be a villain in an issue of the Arnold Drake DOOM PATROL, but otherwise, Legion battles are high-stakes affairs where people die. It's hard to imagine anything with beings as malevolent and cosmically high-powered as Mordru or the Sun-Eater as being happy-go-lucky.

And even the upside-down rocketship was eventually replaced - as early as the Jim Shooter/Curt Swan years - by a facility that covers an entire city block, with a hangarful of Legion cruisers and state of the art weapons. A facility that we later learn is a major tourist attraction.

I just can't agree based on the following:

1. Superboy was not a rare guest in 10 years of Legion adventures in the 1960s.

2. The adult Super Villains seemd to have a a thing for Superman and involved him frequently.

3. A seminal story, the tale of Luma Lunai involves Supergirl wanting Superman to have happiness with Saturn Woman.

4. Where is the "break" between Superboy's and Superman's involvement in the Legion aside from one that is implied because stories didn't fill it in?  I'm not buying it, certainly not based on the revisionist "Superman: The Secret Years" tales.

BTW, I still maintain that although originally (1958), the Legion showed Superboy Smallville in the 30th century, they made no connections to Metropolis as far as geography or relationship.

IMO, the Legion may be a "spin off', but it ended up defining the Man of Steel more than he ever defined them.

I would agree --he would never laugh at them if he remembered them.  I was imaging a story in which his memory has been altered for some reason (a theme of later Superboy and Legion adventures involving the Psycho Warrior, etc).

Superboy does make a real break with the Legion when he enters college and later becomes Superman --there are no pre-Crisis stories wherein Superman is a member.  He is actual seen resigning in Superboy and the Legion (retitled Legion) #259 (late-70s, early80s?)

Although the scene I have in my head is this one, from Legion 300:

(http://bp3.blogger.com/_nWKrpXGTsy0/RfPiW6VTggI/AAAAAAAAADI/lA7R3fQ4yvg/s400/superboy_resign1.jpg)
(http://bp0.blogger.com/_nWKrpXGTsy0/RfPiXKVTghI/AAAAAAAAADQ/leUl9LZrJbg/s400/superboy_resign2.jpg)

I wasn't referring to Superman continuing to be a member, but that he often continued to interact with them.  He had to, Jimmy Olsen (Elastic Lad) was an honorary member, his cousin served in the Legion (setting up the odd paradox that Superman could know of Kara's Legion exploits at the same time Superboy would have to have these memories removed).  And again, when the Super Villains came to the past, they would would be a probelm with Superman, along with other adventures.

I still believe that this relationship is why Moore chose the Legion to be stars in "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" over the Justice League of America.

I think saying they were stars is a bit much --their brief cameo was a key plot point and very touching and nostalgic.  The JLA was there as well, but it's not like Batman gave Superman a memento of their battle against the Phantom Zone Villains or something.  As a matter of fact, the inability of the JLA to penetrate Mxy's dome stands as something of a metaphor for their lack of centrality to Superman's life.  The Legion can cut to the heart of Superman's last hours but the JLA (including Batman and Robin) must stand on the sidelines while those who truly matter to Superman stand shoulder to shoulder with him.

That's the thing, though...even in the Adult Legion tale itself, they even SAY Superman hadn't been an active member for such a considerable length of time. Such a length of time, that he's able to be astounded by developments like, say, Matter-Eater Lad becoming president of his home planet. Note the surprise that Ayla Ranzz has on seeing Superman - not normal if he was a regular or even intermittent visitor. Even Douglas Nolan himself talks about Superman being in the future as if it was an unusual event: "So, they think bringing SUPERMAN in will stop me, eh? They're DEAD WRONG!"

True, the Adult Legion appeared to battle the Legion of Super-Villains among other occasions. I don't think Superman ever totally broke off contact with the Legion after a certain point. But there will come a point where Superman's visits are less regular.