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Author Topic: SUPERMAN RETURNS **SPOILERS** review thread  (Read 37733 times)
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Great Rao
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« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2006, 02:07:11 AM »

Quote from: "Super Monkey"
I don't know if anyone notice that Superman and even Clark barely said anything.

Anyone else noticed this?

I noticed it and found it incredibly frustrating the way that he and Lois never told each other anything.  It also makes the whole "he never lies" aspect of his character have less of an impact - sure he never lies: because he never talks!  But it is in keeping with the Golden Age approach so I suppose it's in character.

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I actually can't wait for the DVD for the extra scenes

Me too, that'll be great.  I'm also curious how it'd compare in a triple feature with Superman I and II.

S!
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"The bottom line involves choices.  Neither gods nor humans have ever stood calmly in a minefield forever.  Good or evil, they are bound to choose.  And when they do, you will see the truth of all that motivates us.  As a thinking being, you have the obligation to choose.  If the fate of all mankind were in your hands, what would your decision be?  As a writer and an artist, I've drawn my answer."   - Jack Kirby
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« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2006, 04:26:41 AM »

I just saw the movie, and let me say: Holy crap...that WAS Kumar!

I don't remember ever not being a Superman fan. I grew up with the Christopher Reeve movies, Superfriends, and the Adventures of Superboy. (To this day, I cannot bear to watch an episode of Lois and Clark, though.)

Things I liked about the movie:

1) Kevin Spacey. While I don't think that Lex would actually kill billions of people, it's in keeping with the first movie. And they were able to keep Superman super-powerful while still creating a big, Miracle Monday-style challenge for him, instead of whining about how hard it was to write Superman stories. Spacey portrayed a funny, smart Lex.

2) Special effects.

3) Kate Bosworth. While I don't have any Lois-as-mommy stories, my favorite portrayal of Lois has always been the Fleisher Lois. And she comes close.

That said, I did have a weird feeling at the end of the movie, a feeling of "Should the movie end like this?" Is Perry White's nephew still in the picture? Having a wife and leaving her is what Lex does...maybe Superman should leave Lois and the kid on Suxor!

Also,

how did Lois not die or break bones, after being smashed around the plane like a piece of popcorn?

It will still take a while before Brandon Routh is established as Superman in my mind, but as someone who believes that the first 40 years of Superman were the best, this is the best Super-thing to happen in a very long time.
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« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2006, 04:22:20 AM »

Well, I finally got around to seeing the movie (in glorious IMAX hugeness, no less) and I have to throw in with Lee Semmens on this one: this is the best Superman movie I've ever seen.

I know it's heresy, but I've said it before and not been excommunicated from the Church of Superman, so I'll say it again: the Christopher Reeve films were not that good.  And yes, that includes Superman: The Movie, which started as a sweeping, majestic epic on Krypton and in Smallville, then degenerated into a cornball circus of camp excess in the second half in a gutless concession to audience expectations (give us camp!  Where's Caesar Romero and Burgess Meredith? Somebody say "Holy Something-or-other!").

Whether you like "Returns" or not, at least it picks an approach and stays with it.  And for my money, Singer -- even if he is more a fan of the older movies and the TV show and not the comics -- caught on to probably one of the most fascinating and compelling core themes of Silver Age Supes for me, the theme of isolation and differentness.  Singer's Superman, like that of the Weisinger era, is one who will never fit in anywhere even though he's loved around the world.  He is alone in every way that matters.  Marvel zombies who blast the character as one-dimensional and unrelatable can't seem to grasp this...long before Peter Parker popped into Stan Lee's toupeed head, Superman had the "lonely outcast" routine down to a science, only without the ham-handed soap opera histrionics.

Brandon Routh was phenomenal, in my opinion, and it was fun watching an unknown emerge as a star in his breakthrough film.  This must be what it felt like to watch Errol Flynn come out of nowhere to star in "Captain Blood" back in 1935.  Routh nailed Superman and Clark Kent.  I was hoping nervously for the former but was equally pleased to see the latter.  Christopher Reeve always gets props for creating "separate and distinct" portrayals of Clark and Superman (as opposed to say, George Reeves), but in fact while Chris' Superman had depth, his Clark was a ridiculous caricature, a burlesque clown stright out of vaudeville.  All he was missing was a seltzer bottle and a giant corsage on his lapel.  How could anyone carry on like that in real life without drawing attention to himself?  Which of course is what Clark Kent should never do.

In contrast, I thought Routh's Clark, while still on the clumsy side, was a lot more believable.  He came off as just a nebbish, a guy a little too straight-laced, slow on the draw and plain old "nondescript" to stand out among the quick-witted, flamboyant (and often genetically blessed) staff of the Daily Planet.  Lois apparently hadn't given him a thought since he left, nor I gather had Perry White.  In this way, explaining Clark's and Superman's simultaneous absences becomes a non-issue.  Noone knows when Clark is around, so why would they care when he leaves?  Note that Perry doesn't say, "Hooray, my best reporter is back!" No, he's just grateful to fill a spot on the staff after losing the last guy in the job.  Clark is a warm body to him, nothing more.

As far as the kid, I have to disagree with Rao that Superman is morally obligated to step in and be a husband and father here.  On the contrary, to do so would be to tear apart an existing family.  And that's not a very "Superman" thing to do, is it?

But here we come to the one real problem of this film...or rather the source of whatever problems it does have.  And that is that while it's superior to the earlier films, it is nonetheless tied to them.  All the  mistakes of Superman 1 and 2, all their wrong turns, all their bad choices are brought along as baggage into the new millenium.  And the biggest goof ever was the sex scene in "Superman 2," a move that still seems as stupid today as it did in 1981.  With years worth of stories to tell and one of pop culture's most enduring love stories to play out on screen, they blew it all in the SECOND movie by throwing them in bed together.  If you're looking for an act that's out of character for Superman, this was the all-time champion boner (ahem.  Did I say that?)  And of course, as even the writers of "2" realized, there was nowhere else to go with the story after that, so they had it all "kissed away" at the end.  Right.

And what of that kiss?  Apparently it made Lois forget that Superman was Clark Kent, but NOT that they slept together?  Or did they get it on some other time we don't know about?

As for those here who think it's ambiguous whether Jason is Kal-El's son, I don't get it.  The way I took it, Lois whispered the secret to Superman on his hospital bed.  (Although if you're among those who just don't want to accept it, Singer has perhaps dropped a hint that will give you an out.  It's a way to explain how Jason can have super-powers and yet not be Superman's son at all.  How?  Well, if you look closely at the design on Jason's pajamas, it features images of....Aquaman!  I swear to you I did not make that up.  Since there are no Aquaman pajamas on the market that I know of, they must have been created by the wardrobe department.  Draw your own conclusions).

The only other awkward moments for me were the direct lifts of dialog from those earlier films.  "I hope this hasn't put you off flying," Luthor's "My father always said to me..." and so on.  None of these worked as well the second time around, and we could have done without them.  On the other hand, Kal's giving the "Jor-El" speech to Jason was great (and interesting, since that speech was delivered when Kal-El was an infant, and presumably not among the "taped messages" in the fortress).  I thought it worked well, since "the son becomes the father" could mean Jason growing up to be super, but could also refer to how Superman, always in the old days running back to the fortress for advice from his dead dad's "How to be A Hero" video lecture series, now finds himself without the crystals and thus cut off from Jor-El in any form.  He is now forced to stop being the son and start being the father.

Anyway, as much as I liked the film, my wife loved it twice as much, and she hates comic book movies.  She leaned over twice during the film to tell me "This is great!" and as soon as we got out she asked if we could get a lunch, then go back and see it again. This is not typical behavior for her, trust me.  She thinks it's the best movie we've seen since 1993's "Mask of Zorro".  And personally, I think if Singer can win over this type of audience...the people who love movies as opposed to comic book geeks (who will never be happy no matter what, as repeatedly proven in scientific studies), then he's got a winner on his hands.

I say long live the movie Superman.  He's looking good for the first time in...well...70 years.
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Lee Semmens
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« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2006, 12:29:42 PM »

One thing that puzzled me about this film is, although listed in the cast at the start of the film, veteran character actor, James Karen did not appear in it!

Unless I blinked while he was onscreen for a second or two ...
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« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2006, 01:22:23 PM »

Ben Hubbard aka James Karen ending up on the cutting room floor
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« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2006, 01:36:43 PM »

Quote from: "DoctorZero"
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I don't accept the "deadbeat dad" theory because once he knows he intends to be a part of the boys life, as it should be.


Its funny that that phrase has been thrown around. When Supe was talking to the kid sleeping in bed, someone in the audience yelled out 'Deadbeat Dad' which drew some chuckles.

But how could he be considered a 'Deadbeat Dad' without knowing that he's a father...

fro out
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« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2006, 05:52:37 PM »

I finally saw Superman Returns last night.  I'd been travelling all week and was a 20 minute drive from a movie theater (without a usable car, 'natch!) else I'd have seen it sooner.

First off, I enjoyed the movie.  It was good to see Superman on screen again.  Did it rock my world?  No.  But it was a solid 8 out of 10 for me.

For fear of sounding like a hairdresser, I don't get Brandon Routh's excess hairdo.  He looked more like Clark Kent in the Halloween costume he wore before he got the movie part.  He would've been better served with Dean Cain's hairstylist in Lois & Clark, even if it meant less spitcurl.  The same goes for super piano-throwing kid, whose hairdo looks designed to elicit loathing.  Kevin Spacey had the best hairdo, of course, followed closely by Kate Bosworth's (who is approximately 517,323,484 bazillion times hotter than Margot Kidder's Lois in Superman II+).  Parker Posey might've had a good hairstyle too -- hard to say.  

Another Lois & Clark-ism was the "lack of talking" business.  Stuff which would've been solved by a real conversation between two human beings didn't happen that way.  If done right, where you understand and feel why they're tongue-tied, it makes for great romantic tension.  When it's done wrong, it's just stupid -- ambiguously stupid in this case.  What the hell does Lois whisper to Superman?  

Everything about Krypton was stupid, which I suppose is consistent with most of the movies:

- The Krypton-tech spaceshit Superman crashed to Earth in and was never mentioned again, yet Superman somehow seemed down and out without those crystals which he didn't put in a safer place.  If Krypton had such advanced space travel, why are almost all Kryptonians dead?

- The lack of Krypton-tech Lex had despite "tell me everything".  Besides his "let's recreate Atlantis with the Genesis Effect" crystal, he didn't really demonstrate being a genius.  Yeah, like I'm gonna fly off to some sort of uncontrollably growing crystal rock formation in the name of real estate.

- The whole "go to Krypton" arc is just dumb.  I just can't get into it.  It was just as dumb as the 10 year gap between Jeff East and Christopher Reeve.  Didn't Jor-El already feed him that info when he was a baby?  Martha Kent is a saint for dealing with his absences.

Speaking of which, it would've been nice to have his mother awaken him.  Have her already infiltrated as a nurse or somesuch, helping Lois and rugrat sneak in.  After they do their thing and leave, she' alone and cries an Oscar-worthy "Clark Kent, now you GET UP NOW!  I'm not going to be the mother who outlives her son.", possibly invoking Kryptonian smelling salts or other plot device.

Jimmy rocked.  I've liked Sam Huntington since Detroit Rock City.

It probably cost more for the special effects to animate Noel Neill and Jack Larson's name in the opening credits than they got paid for their entire runs on the TV show.

Yes, I'm anxiously awaiting the sequel.
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« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2006, 08:51:37 PM »

Quote
For fear of sounding like a hairdresser, I don't get Brandon Routh's excess hairdo. He looked more like Clark Kent in the Halloween costume he wore before he got the movie part. He would've been better served with Dean Cain's hairstylist in Lois & Clark, even if it meant less spitcurl. The same goes for super piano-throwing kid, whose hairdo looks designed to elicit loathing. Kevin Spacey had the best hairdo, of course, followed closely by Kate Bosworth's (who is approximately 517,323,484 bazillion times hotter than Margot Kidder's Lois in Superman II+). Parker Posey might've had a good hairstyle too -- hard to say.


I think Routh's hair comes down to two things.  One, another attempt to summon the ghost of Christopher Reeve (who always had too much hair in these things, too) and two, young guys have too much hair in general these days (said the curmudgeon).  This is especially true with kids in middle school or thereabouts...I saw a group of them the other day and it looked like the McDonald's "french fry guys" had come to life.

I agree Bosworth's hotter than Kidder, but so is Eva Marie Saint even at her current age.  In fact, I'd rather see Frank Langella in a slinky gown than Margot Kidder.  As for Parker Posey, I'd have thought she'd be a perfect Lois herself.  I can only guess she's considered officially "too old" now by Hollywood standards.

Quote
- The Krypton-tech spaceshit Superman crashed to Earth in and was never mentioned again, yet Superman somehow seemed down and out without those crystals which he didn't put in a safer place. If Krypton had such advanced space travel, why are almost all Kryptonians dead?


As in 1978, we are left to figure for ourselves why Kryptonians didn't have a space program.  Maybe some religious or political ban on it.  Or maybe whatever Zod's heinous crime was involved space travel, so it was forbidden to everyone.  (Or maybe Martha's remarks in this scene are setting up a sequel where other Kryptonian's *are* out there in space). The ship was mentioned again briefly (Clark to Mom: "Don't worry, I buried it").

I agree he should've done a better job securing the crystals, especially given that this is Luthor's second invasion of the fortress.  It always bugged me that the movies reduced the Fortress from a super-cool stronghold ("NO GURLZ ALLOUD") into what amounts to a jumbled up pile of pick-up sticks.  If that's what appeals to Kal's Kryptonian aesthetics, fine, but it doesn't do to leave your valuables in an unlocked house.  And really, are you allowed to call a place a "fortress" if it doesn't even have a door?

Speaking of which, it's interesting that Luthor managed to activate the crystals by waving his hand over them.  I guess I always assumed Jor-El's messages were designed to be triggered by Kal's specific genetic code, and not just any warm body that happened along.


Quote
- The lack of Krypton-tech Lex had despite "tell me everything". Besides his "let's recreate Atlantis with the Genesis Effect" crystal, he didn't really demonstrate being a genius. Yeah, like I'm gonna fly off to some sort of uncontrollably growing crystal rock formation in the name of real estate.



This is a carry-over from the earlier films and part of that unhappy baggage I talked about earlier.  In the films, Luthor isn't a "genius" except in his own opinion.  He's a nutjob with a Napoleon complex and an unrealistic fixation on "real estate" as the key to world domination.  His scheme in the first film was utterly ridiculous and unworkable and even if it had succeeded would have gained him nothing, but that was the point.  Because, again, the second half of Superman: The Movie was played for belly-laughs.  Superman Returns is, for the most part, played straighter, but Luthor's old schtick remains because SR is also, in terms of structure, a remake of Donner's film.  I like Luthor's plot better this time around just by virtue of being more visually interesting, but it still makes no sense.  The only way to explain it at all is to recognize that the movie version of Luthor isn't even a little bit "genius," but he is 100% madman.

As for "tell me everything," remember it took even Kal-El ten years to learn everything on those crystals.  Likely Luthor got to the part that interested him...how to build things with no real effort...and figured the rest could wait til later.  For all we know, there's no such thing as Kryptonian weaponry anyway.  Unless interlocked, spinning hoola hoops are weapons.


Quote
- The whole "go to Krypton" arc is just dumb. I just can't get into it. It was just as dumb as the 10 year gap between Jeff East and Christopher Reeve. Didn't Jor-El already feed him that info when he was a baby? Martha Kent is a saint for dealing with his absences.


What was really dumb about the 10-year gap between Jeff and Chris was that Jeff looked at least as old as Chris, if not older.  Certainly he looked far too old for high school.  Sloppy casting, there.  But yes, I always wondered what Clark did for food during his ten-year training course with Jor-El.  Or indeed, thanks to the editing in that sequence, whether the training took place entirely at the Fortress or whether it all happened in outer space.

As for going to Krypton, it was a dumb idea if you had time to think about it.  I gather more was made of it in the first cut of the film, including scenes set in space at the site of Krypton's destruction.  But this is one case where cutting was a good idea, because the whole trip is mentioned so briefly you can't stop to examine the story.  In the novel, I gather, it's explained that astronomers saw "signs of life" on krypton and Superman, forgetting it takes thousands of years for light to travel here from Krypton, decides to go check it out.  Not so smart.  In the finished film, I think the hope is that we -- like Lois and Metropolis -- will be less interested in where he was than that he's back.  Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.


Quote
It probably cost more for the special effects to animate Noel Neill and Jack Larson's name in the opening credits than they got paid for their entire runs on the TV show.


How great to see these guys given something to do!  In Noel's case, something important, in Jack's case something potentially recurring.  Great stuff.  Also nice to see the tip of the hat to John Hamilton's Perry White in that "Great Ceaser's Ghost" line.  You could tell the old-timers in the audience when I saw the film...that line got reactions from scattered seats around me.  (Also fun, the guy next to me had apparently never seen the "bullet in the eye" teaser...when that scene played out, I thought he was going to get up and dance!).
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