Superman Through the Ages! Forum

My impression is that Imaginary Stories were rare in the post-Weisinger period. Anyone know offhand what was the last Imaginary Story published before "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow"?

Would something like SUPERMAN ANNUAL #11, “For the Man Who Has Everything.” (1985) count where thanks to the Black Mercy Superman lives a life where Kryton did not explode? It follows a plot device used in Imaginary Stories like "Superman's Other Life!" in (Superman V1 #132, 1959) or World's Finest #263 (1980) where the entire series of Super Son stories were revealed to be an elaborate computer program?

I think the reason you saw the demise of 'Imaginary Stories' by the 1970s was that you had alternate earths as a way to create a story without messing us 'regular' continuity. Want a Earth where Batman is the only hero? Allow the Batman of Earht-1 to change the history of another Earth ("To Kill a Legend"). Want to tell the story where Superman is actually the second and last of a line of matrix like beings? Have him pulled to the future of another earth as happend in "Superman you are Dead, Dead, Dead!" Want Superman to finally marry Lois Lane? Have it happen on Earth-2 as per "Superman takes a Wife."

Even better if you did do something that messed with continuity some editor could after the fact create another alternate Earth so future writers did not have to deal with the problem. This is how Earth-2A (called Earth-E here) and Earth-B came into existance. With all these earths to play with you didn't need the out of an 'Imaginary Stories'

I think I would exclude by definition any story that uses any kind of "framing" device, such a computer simulation or dream. If I understand correctly that the story you cited involves such, I would exclude it.

Your point about alternate earths is interesting.

Well it is an important point to make. Superman v1 #300 (June 1976), the Superman 2001 story is not denoted as an 'Imaginary Story' even though it clearly is not in continuity. It is clear that if the story have been written seven years ago it likely would have had the 'Imaginary Story' denote but with an Infinity of Earths why bother?

Also the Bronze Age saw the idea of Super science and magic get totally out of hand producing stories like the 1980 two issue story (Action #507-508) where Jonathan Kent is allowed to see his son all grown up thanks to some aliens who have brought him back to life for one day. Unfortunitly the aliens are a little careless ane their 'wish energy' is used by a hippy like character who gets what ever he wants simply by saying "please". After the hippy is defeated the day ends and the aliens with their superscience reset the day and the events never 'really' happen.

AFAICFO the last 'Imaginary Story' before "What Happened to the Man of Tommorow' actually noted as such was Superman V1 #230 (1970) where Luthor is Superman and Clark Kent is a gangster.

SUPERMAN 417 (1985): "Superman, warrior of Mars!" by Maggin and Swan.
I have this issue: great story.
If you want to read it, you can find it on this site  section "Read comics online"!

I tend to think of an Imaginary Story as one which "may or may not" happen in the current continuity. A "what if" story that involves an alternate past would not qualify. So I think this story would not be included.

But, this raises other interesting questions: When was the first such "what if" story using an alternate past? Were any such stories explicitly labelled "An Imaginary Story"?

I don't have the issue but it's in the ga when Clark & Lois go see a short on Superman.  Superman battles giant robots and it's clearly taken from the Fleischer Animated Studios.  Clark wonders near the end where they take their info because it shows Superman changing.  He has to distract Lois while that goes on - at the end he winks at the reader...

Friend 8)

This story is cited as the first Imaginary Story, but I don't think I agree with that. It uses a framing device (the movie show), and the "imaginary" on-screen story wouldn't significantly affect continuity anyway. That's not an Imaginary Story by my definition.

I think I would call this story an "alternate past" story, rather than an Imaginary Story, because it doesn't use current continuity as a starting point. An Imaginary Story by my definition is one which "may or may not happen" in current continuity.

Sounds like this is an alternate history story as I would define it. It was explicitly labeled as an Imaginary Story? Any others in this category?

Your labeling system is more stringent than DC's own.  A number of tales billed as "Imaginary Stories" were what you have deemed "alternate histories."  Off the top of my head, I know there was a World's Finest where, after the Waynes' murder, Bruce was adopted and raised by the Kents as Clark's brother.  And there was a story where Clark lost his powers as a youngster but grew up to be Batman, while Luthor acquired powers in his lab and became Superman.  If memory serves, both -- and many like them -- were billed as "Imaginary Stories."

Marvel's "What If" was in the same vein...some re-wrote a hero's history from square one (What If the radioactive spider had bitten Flash Thompson?) while others picked some key point in continuity as a starting point (what if the Avengers lost the Kree-Skrull War?).  But the idea, like DC's Imaginary Stories, was the same; every life has turning points. Let's see what would have happened if they picked Door #2!

Actually, I'm interested in coming up with a typology of stories as much as examining the issue of labeling usage. Here are some of the questions I have:

• What different story types can be distinguish?
• When were different story types first/last used?
• Did any types of "Imaginary Stories" appear before the label was introduced?
• Which types of  'Imaginary Stories" continued to appear after the label was dropped?

Here's my start on story types:

• "Normal" stories would be ones which are set in the present and "really" happen.
• "Untold" stories would be ones set in the "real" past which "really" happened.
• "Alternate past" stories would be ones which involve departures from the "real" past.
• "Possible future" stories would be ones which "may or may not happen" in the "real" future.
• "Framing" stories would be normal stories which include non-normal stories using some framing device (e.g. dream, computer simulation, etc.)

Others?

Oh I have read it but as with Superman 2001 it does not specifically call itself an 'Imaginary Story'  though it does state the events are 'imaginary' but this is right after it also states "But aren't all histories only as real as we think they are?" This is IMHO akin to saying the events on Earth-3 are imaginary from the standpoint of Earth-1 because they did not occur on Earth-1  :shock:

This is the biggest problem when you have an infinate number of earths; somewhere out there every imaginary  'Imaginary Story' actually happened.

I thought that was the beauty of the infinite multiple universe paradigm: any story you come up with can be a "real" story. This allows great freedom for the imagination.

More story types:

• "Future visit" story - involves time-travel to the future
• "Future visitor" story - involves time-traveller from the future
• "Past visit" story - involves time-travel to the past (can't change history)
• "Past visitor" story - involves time-traveller from the past
• "Alterverse visit" story - involves travel to an alternate universe
• "Alterverse visitor" story - involves visitor from an alternate universe

Here is the 1st one ever:

http://superman.nu/tales3/cartoonhero/1.gif

True but it made the whole 'Imaginary Story' thing pointless. With alternate futures and realities why even have such a plot device? Better there be a reality where Lex Luthor was Superman and a Gold K exposed Kal-El was Batman than it be called an 'Imaginary Story'.

Although this is cited as the first Imaginary Story, I don't think it really is. Note that the bubble on the splash page that says "Our Very First Imaginary Story" was not part of the original. It was added many years later when the story was reprinted in a Superman Annual. The story itself gives no indication that it is "imaginary" in the sense of being outside the ordinary story continuity. I think "imaginary story" in the bubble refers to the story-within-the-story shown in the Superman cartoon that Clark and Lois go to see. This story was "imaginary" within the context of the framing story, but the framing story itself is not an Imaginary Story in the sense that the term was later used.

Sure it is, since it's impossible for that Cartoon to exist in the comic book Earth-1 or Earth-2 or any other Earth besides Earth-Prime but that story can not take place there since Superman is there in the tale, therefore it is clearly an what if tale aka an Imaginary Story.

I don't think they had all those other Earths back in those days... Also, why do you says it's "impossible" for the cartoon to exist?

I know, that why it's called an Imaginary Tale!

Yes it was.; Right on the cover to boot.  This throws the whole idea of 'Imaginary Story' being events that may or may never happen out the window but then again with a Multiverse isn't that idea already DOA in the first place?

I think of Imaginary Stories as a genre or story-type rather than a plot device. Unlike dreams or computer simulations, it's not a part of the story narrative itself. It labels the story as a whole as being "not real". In a framed story the inner story is also "not real", but it is embedded in a real story, and in principle can affect the "real' world because it is observed (on a computer screen) or experienced (in a dream) by "real" characters.

An alternate universe story is different in that it is to be considered "real". It just takes place in a "different" (but no less real) world than the usual one. Granted the intent and effect is pretty much the same, in that the device allows stories to be told that would otherwise adversely affect continuity. And to some, "alternate universe" sounds more grown-up than "imaginary story".

But in the long run I think there is a difference. If all worlds are "real", what makes the usual world (the one that used to be thought of as the "real" world) special? Maybe the usual world is just the one readers have become accustomed to. And if so, maybe there's no reason why they couldn't become accustomed to another...

I usually look at imaginary stories as depicting events that have diverged from the mainstream timeline at a certain key point in history ... kind of like Marvel's What If stories. They're not meant to be taken as gospel. The best example of this is the story of Superman-Red and Superman-Blue.

But how does that differ form an alternatve history story? Like Superman your Dead, Dead, Dead where superman is thrown into anther alternate future where 'he' is actually the second (and last) in a line of artifical Superman

Usenet asked a good question. If the heroes of Earth-2 has comics based on the on Earth-1 then what about the Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman of Earth-2? One the last Pre-Crisis tried to handwave this by having  the Earth-1 Julie Schwartz created characters named Ultra-Man, Night Wizard, and Madam Miracle, who were very similar to Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman that did well until the 'real' heroes showed up.

Of course while a great tribute the flaw in the story *was* the timing - the Silver age started in 1955 with the Barry Allen Flash which roughly fit with Perry White story about events of 35 years ago (http://superman.nu/tales2/lastPrime/?page=9 (http://superman.nu/tales2/lastPrime/?page=9)) and the Earth-1 Superman was nearly always portrayed in the 30-40 year old range. Meaning that even if it had been Superboy that had driven Ultra-man off the shelves the comic would have had a 14 year run. Assuming Batman came out right after turning 21 that meant Night Wizard had to have been in print nearly that long. Was also were told that in the comics Barry enjoyed the JSA had a Wonder Woman making the whole Madam Miracle thing redundent.

An imaginary tale is just a 'what if' tale outside of regular continuity. And Ultraman and the Crime Syndicate were on Earth-3..the original superheroes were on Earth-2.

But the problem with this line of logic is there really was not a "regular" continuity and writers basicly ignored the mass they had made of things until Flash of Two worlds (1961) showed up and gave a really nice out - alternate Earths. Then the flood gate opened and Earth-2, Earth-E, and Earth-B were put forth in the 1970's  to address all the major continuity glitches that DC had allowed.

Trying to pin down if you are reading an Earth-2, Earth-E, Earth-1 or Earth-B story is about as fun as trying to figure out Hawkman's Post-Crisis to Pre-Zero Hour history. As far as Superman is concerned Earth-2 he works for the Daily Star, Luthor has a full head of hair and he has another archfoe called the Ultrahuminite. Earth-E he lives in the same time period as the Superman of Earth-2 but works for the Daily Planet and Luthor is bald. Of the the two only Earth-E was a Superboy but he was kept busy at home by Luthor, some take over the world aliens, and 5th collunmists)

The Earth-1 Superman is the one everyone is most familar with: he was Superboy, knew Luthor as a kid, never had a foe called the Ultrahuminite works for Daily Planet and so on.

I never has any trouble with a base alternate Earth 1 and Earth 2. It's the modern muddle  that confues me.

I've ALWAYS looked at the different "Imaginary Stories" as having taken place on other Earths.  This way, I can always imagine the Earth-1 Superman meeting up with the Earth-1986 Superman, et. al.  

And I've ALWAYS maintained that there are Earths which were COMPLETELY untouched by The Anti-Monitor!  Jason Todd is still Robin, and Kara Zor-El still goes into the far future to have adventures with a younger version of her cousin and The Legion of Super-Heroes!  

;)

"The Kingdom" seems to support this...though it's alternate timelines that didn't have a Crisis and not earths.

But hypertime is confusing.

Not to me.  ;)  

Every story printed HAS happened.  If it contradicts known continuity, it merely happened on a different Earth, is all.  

All of the different Supermen (Supermans?) haven't met each other, is all.  

Gernot...