Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Superman# 423 and Action Comics #583 should be the cut off points for this.

Thanks, SM. I'm up for it. Like I said, this is gonna be soooooo fun!!! And I agree. The cut-off point should be just prior to the events of Crisis on Infinite Earths. And I, for one, would vote to see material from both World's Finest Comics and DC Comics Presents included in this project. This would allow great characters such as Black Lightning (who made his home in Metropolis' Suicide Slum) and the Composite Superman to be included in the encyclopedia. Entries on the Earth-2 Superman and Power Girl should also be included since they were integral parts of the Superman legend.

Super Monkey and Bill 9000, you guys are actually talking about two separate cut-off points as if they are the same:  There's "just prior to Crisis" followed by, about a year later, Super Monkey's S 423 and Act 583, the "last pre-Byrne issues."

I don't really know which cut-off I'd pick.  The time between Crisis and Byrne was a sort of grey twilight dimension, that continued a Superman continuity that was much like the Earth-1 Superman's continuity, but with a number of stories that don't really fit and perhaps shouldn't be included.  Stories like Crisis, the last issue of DCCP, and Supergirl's secret marriage.  So maybe the cut-off should be just before Crisis.  But then we'd be cutting out some Bates, Maggin, and Swan and one could make a pretty good argument that their stuff is always canonical.

On the other hand, I don't think we can just pick-and-choose some stories and not others from that final year.  So if I had to pick (which I don't :)) I'd side with Bill 9000 on this and cut it off right before Crisis - sorry Beppo and Nightwing - I don't think Crisis itself nor that last year of pre-Byrne stories really fit.

Perhaps a compromise?  We concentrate on the Pre-Crisis "Glory Days", BUT also mention (and specifically identify) events that occurred during the Crisis and the "Twillight Zone" between Crisis and the Byrne reboot.  Thus what happened during and immediately Post-Crisis can be seen as "technically canonical, but then again..."  

In this latter category we can also include other "tribute" stories that definitely are dated post 1985, but have glimpses of the earlier continuity -- the "Kara" appearance in Christmas with the Superheroes #2 comes immediately to mind.

Ulimately this is all up to The Great Rao, it is his site and he makes the final call.

Agreed. We'll leave it to Rao to make the final decision. As for Wonder-Man, I'll include his invulnerability to kryptonite and the fact that his super-powers are identical when I upload the finished image to the site. And to answer your question, Starchild, that was an original composition that I did after re-reading the issue in which he appears (which, of course, is conveniently found right here on this site).

I agree the year or so of post-Crisis/pre-Byrne issues don't neatly jibe with Earth-1 continuity, but my point is that much of Fleischer's book does not fit into Earth-1 continuity.  I thought Rao was suggesting we use that book as a springboard and continue it from 1964 on to cover what the original author missed.  If so, we could easily continue Fleischer's tack of treating Superman as one man who operated from 1938 onwards, and not two men, or even more, as postulated with the invention of the "Multiverse." Fleischer's book does not recognize the existence of Earth-1 or Earth-2, and we can ignore them, too.  So if a story doesn't fit neatly into Earth-1 continuity, it need hardly matter.

The point is, these stories still had a nebbishy Clark Kent, a Superman who revered Krypton, a mad scientist model Luthor, Steve Lombard and all the other trappings of pre-reboot Superman.  Byrne gave us a whole new character from the ground up, so it shouldn't count.  Anything that used the "old rules," even if it took a few strange turns, should be in.

I will grant you however, that it gets sticky after the Crisis because things like Supergirl's death, etc can't be acknowleged without referencing the Crisis itself, which I think we all agree is non-canon for the purposes of this project.

If it is going to be pre-reboot then it would include crisis and all the issues right before the re-boot. If it is going to be pre-crisis then it should stop at the last issues right before Crisis #1. That means no mention the Death of these characters and no Superboy-Prime (I am sure he didn't appear before then, unless I am mistaken)


I do think we should include things like Earth-2 Superman, Earth-3 Ultraman, Muhammad Ali, and even the infamous Super-Sons of Earth-E!

I vote for pre-reboot (if anyone happens to care). Those post-crisis, pre-reboot stories built on the tradition that had preceeded them.

And I don't see a downside of including them.

Unless you're a Supergirl fan.  Most fans of Kara Zor-el, that I know of(including myself), want to chuck 'Supergirl's Secret Marriage' into the same dumpster  that Liefield 'art'  goes into.

The last issue that qualifies as pre-Crisis is DC Comics Presents:  Superman & The Global Guardians.  That issue is the one that led straight into Crisis.

I don't think the standard for what goes in and does not should be what stories anyone likes. "Supergirl's Secret Marriage" is a terrible story, but it is a part of the same shared "history" as all of the other pre-reboot stories and should be included.

True.  True. About the pre-reboot and what criteria a story should be used to place in the enclylopedia

I tend to ignore what happened after/during the Crisis, due to other reasons.  The Crisis was the first step in the total dismantling of the old pre-Crisis DCU.  Millenium(removing the Guardians), the fall of the GLC, the death of Jason Todd, Superman & Batman & Wonder Woman retroactively removed from the JLofA as members, and so on.  That twilight era between Crisis and re-boot is what's causing all the glitches in the current DCU.  The fall of the GLC and loss of the Guardians causes problems for the pre-boot Legion of Super-Heroes at any rate(Universo anyone?).

I'm pretty sure that we already reached a consensus to include the post-Crisis pre-Reboot stories, but to ignore all the events around the Crisis itself.  The focus is on Superman and his cast of characters, not on the destruction of it all.  Crisis always overshadows everything whenever it's included.

To make it 100% clear:

Every issue and comic series that is considered canonical counts up to and right before crisis starts, that's when we stop.

All issues during crisis, crisis itself, and all post crisis issues including re-boot issues and of course post reboot issues DO NOT COUNT and will not and can not be used for this project.


The only way this will change is if The Great Rao says anything different.

Until then, please do not add anything from these issues or it will be deleted and you can be banned from adding anything to the project if you keep doing it or try to add Doomsday or something crazy like that ;)