Superman Through the Ages! Forum

There were many Earths on the Multiverse.

The main ones concerning Superman would be:

Earth-1
Earth-2
Earth-3
Earth-S
Earth-Prime

For a full list of Pre-Crisis Earths please see this website:
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1185/atlas0.html


So how do we deal with this, should we create a Multiverse or Earth Category?

Or should we just pretend that there was only one Earth even when the Earth-1 and Earth-2 Supermen meet :roll:

Yes. Definately.

I started to create a Multiverse entry yesterday, but didn't get around to it.

It's featured too prominantly in some stories to ignore. It will have to come up in some entries, and we'll need a link to it.

I do think we should avoid unneccessary references to earth-1 and earth-2 in the entries. For instance, don't go calling Superman "Superman I" when describing golden age events.

But when understanding the multiverse is critical to understanding a particular character or event then it needs to be dealt with.

Well, I came up against that problem with the Captain Thunder entry. He was supposed to be the greatest hero of a parallel Earth, and he inadvertantly wound up in Metropolis on what I termed "mainstream" Earth, where he met Superman ... no Earth-1 or Earth-2 or anything like that.

Captain Thunder came from Earth-T.

Could be, but was that ever mentioned in the "chronicles"? (ie, was the term "Earth-T" ever used in any of the canonical sources?)  If not, we can't use it.

One entry or many, inclusive of minor at best universes like "Earth T" or not, the multiverse just needs to be there...

Its honoriong of the past, its bow to interesting science fiction are just a seminal part of the DC Super Hero resurgence in the 50s and 60s and it was devestatingly clever to those of us who saw its creation... 8)

It's also funny and ironic that the Multiverse might actually be closer to how the real universe actually works like than the one DC now uses.

Anyway, it has begun!


I have added Superman of Earth-2 and the Earth-2 Category. However it's just a holder so start editing like Superman robots folks!

For Earth-2 Superman info:

http://superman.nu/a/History/e2-superman.php

http://my.execpc.com/~icicle/SUPERMAN.html

http://my.execpc.com/~icicle/SUPERMANLIST.html


and of course this is a must read: http://westwood.fortunecity.com/mcqueen/309/the_superman_of_earth-2_tribute.html

I went through those pages and these were his only appearances that I could find listed in the canonical chronicles:

I think this is a very good question.  Starchild is quite right that the only reference to other Earths in Supermanica should be based strictly on canonical sources.  It's very noteworthy that numbered Earths appear much more frequently in JLA and Flash (ie essentially Silver Age characters whose books had been cancelled in the 50s) than in Superman or Batman.  However, the concept of parallel universes, dear to the heart of science-fiction fans of all stripes, including the editors and writers of Superman, pop up everywhere in Superman stories, usually without numbers attached.

I say include Earth-2, etc. but only where absolutely necessary.  Fleisher imaginatively incorporated so-called Earth-2 stories into the "Earth-1" mythos (the concept had been around for 20 years when he wrote his books) and we should too.  Again, the emphasis should be on the books, not on received fan wisdom or extra-textual evidence.

 :D

Take a look at this:  http://www.io.com/~woodward/chroma/atlas.html

Main Sequence, Major and Minor Pre-Crisis Universes are our prime interests.  But be aware that some Universe names were unofficial, and certainly the vast majority of residents would only know their home as simply "Earth" with no number attached.  But THOSE WHO KNOW (which includes the JLA and JSA) would add the "1" or "2" ONLY in reference to other worlds.  The number was only a technical classification used only by those who had an interest in these multi-universal matters, but not in everyday usage.

But in terms of Supermanica, I say we should identify the various alternate Earths.  After all, the Supermanica is based on Earth-ONE, so shouldn't we be proud of that distinction?   :wink:

"We're Number One!  We're Number One!  We're Number One!"   :D

I added the entry "Parallel Worlds" which was how they were described back in the Silver Age which was a popular concept of sci-fi novels and pulps way before Buckaroo Banzai. :wink:

I think the problem is going to be HOW to write these entries.

Fleisher treated his book as a sort of biography, with Superman portrayed as one man who went active in 1938 and stayed on the job until 1964.  Thus the Superman who met the Legion was the same one who fought the Ultra-Humanite, and so on.

I don't see anyway to handle the multiple Earths concept without undoing this basic premise of the Great Superman Book, and editing Fleisher's original entries to reflect what happened to which guy.

A Theoretical Concepts category has been created for the Multiverse, Parallel Worlds, Time Travel and canonical Imaginary Stories.


Asterisk them there if need be.

That should fit the square pegs into round holes without major rewriting of TGSB. :wink:

The same way Fleisher handled contradictions. Just note them.

That's why in the Multiverse entry I stated that "some Superman historians" believe that the earliest Superman chronciles are actually the history of the earth-2 Superman.

Some of these issues are simply unresolvable. We can't pretend that the earth-2 Superman is that same is the Earth-1 Superman because the two have met.

But we can't pretend that the Earth-2 Superman is the Golden-age Superman because that leads to its own set of contradictions (earth-1/earth-2 crossover point anyone?)

The ambiguity has to simply be incorperated into the database because it exist in the chronicles.

Personally, I'd prefer the articles to be written from a real world point of view. To me that makes the issue easy to deal with.

But the ambiguity can still be dealt with when writing from the point of view that Superman is in fact real. Just write articles from the point of view that some of the chronicles may be inaccurate or disputed and when neccessary include both sides of a contradictory issue as if it's something that "historian" are themselves fighting over.

We are still in the early stages with this project, and this is Everyone’s project. There is no right or wrong answers, yet anyway ;)

That is why we have these types of threads and polls.

Fleisher's way of doing things is not perfect, as it just gives way to a whole host of problems. So we have to figure out how to do this our way that everyone or at least nearly everyone can be happy with that is just as good and as high quality as Fleisher's book, that should be the goal.

In my humble opinion:D

Beppo,

...and maybe even transcend our source inspiration. :roll:

Why are you rolling your eyes?

Im rolling them because with all the additions beyond 64, we'll have to transcend...and that's a whole lotta work, old bean.

Was the term 'Multiverse' ever actually used in the Chronicles? (ie, in the canonical sources)   If not, there shouldn't be an entry for it.

To keep this project from flying out of control, I think we need to limit all information - factual, theoretical, and definitions - to that which was presented in those "canonical sources."  So if you're going to have an entry that defines the Multiverse (assuming such a concept existed and was ever mentioned), you're going to have to eventually site the actual issue references and limit the definition to what they state.

:s:

I am not that old, I am a Bronze ager :P



I haven't a clue. It was used in the Crisis 12 issues series, so it might have been use in those crossover issues, but I don't have them.

This page is about the closest I could find:

http://superman.nu/tales2/wife/?page=2

There's a mention of parallel worlds in 'Superboy and the Five Legion Traitors' and a mention of alternate timelines in the issue where Superman's costume gets stolen.  Alternate Earths were also mentioned in that story about Laney(The daughter of Lois Lane and Kal-El) when she accidently exposed herself to a box of Red K.

'Multiverse' seemed limited to Justice Leauge of America, Green Lantern, Flash.  With the 'Wonder Woman: Judegment Day' miniseries being a recent addition at the time.

Earth X was mentioned in the pages of DC Comics Presents.

Ditto the use of the phrase "some historians believe..."  --can a statement like this be backed with a reference to canonical sources?  If not, it doesn't belong in Supermanica.

At a ceratin point this nit-picking becomes ridiculous and counter productive.

Fleisher often uses the phrase, "this story is in many respects similar to...." Is that phrase found in the canonical sources?

In Superman #276, Willy Fawcett mentions "fighting the Monster League of Evil across 1953 dimensions of time-and-space," and at the end of the story Superman refers to the "myriad earths that stretch across creation."

So the concept exist. I'll bet my right eye the term multiverse is used in the sources at least once, but who knows if we'll ever find it.

In any event the concept exists in the sources. Perhaps there's a more canonical name for it, but "myriad earths" doesn't have the same ring to it.

I'll take that bet.

The concept may exist, but so does the concept of "air" - that doesn't mean it should get an entry.  My point is that we shouldn't be defining Superman's 1938-1986 reality using terms that where created specifically for Crisis - an event designed to destroy that reality.  The reality should define itself, not be defined by it's destroyer.  I agree with Telle, that we can get by with the occasional mention of a parallel universe or parallel world, and maybe Earth-1 and Earth-2.

We seem to just be going back and forth on this, and I think that if we can't reach common ground we should ask the Great Rao to step in.

Parallel- worlds were explpored frequently during the Silver Age in other stories such as "Supeman Meets the Goliath-Hercules".  I just dont think they were ever referred to as "multi-verse" a much later concept.

It is a much later concept than that story, but it was definately a pre-crisis concept. Now it's hypertime!!

It's also a concept that comes up a lot in the Bronze Age. It was easy for TGSB to avoid it as a concept but by time of the crisis the parallel earth's concept was so common that the issue came up all the time.

In canonical sources Superman has met Captain Thunder, Ultra-man, Captain Marvel, his earth-2 self, the earth-2 Solomon Grundy, Superboy of earth-prime, and I believe the Freedom Fighters and He-Man all of whom are from alternate earths and that's just off the top of my head.

No.  Not 'multiverse' until Crisis.

In the stories before Crisis it was called 'The Infinite Earths'

I went back through some of my old comics.  In Wonder Woman: Day of Judgement the DC Multiverse is called Infinite Earths(Earth-1, Earth-2, Earth-X, and Earth-I were the Earths used in that story arc)

I can't even find the term multiverse until Crisis(doesn't mean it's not there, it just means I haven't encountered it)  All I can find is the term Infinite Earths.

BTW the Anti-Monitor only destroyed a little over a thousand universes.  He did not touch Earth C or C-1 because they were too far away(via letters colum answer).

My point was that the reference to "historians" seems to refer to comic book fans and comic book writers who have commented on Superman comics in some other forum.  Your reference to Fleisher reinforces my point:  what he is doing is making a statement based on his own observations and readings of Superman comics, without reference to what other people have written about them.  Not nit-picking, just a simple plea for originality and clarity.