Print Page - include DCCP and S Crisis Crossovers?

I originally wanted all pre-reboot issues to be included, but then maybe it's better to ignore Crisis altogether, since it's just a ugly killjoy that would overtake and taint the whole site, since nearly every entry DIED during that mess of a series. Well, the art was great, however :p

Then again, it would be sad to loose Superboy-Prime and it would be nice to end it with Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? issues.

I will go along with whatever people want of course and it could work both ways.

DCCP:
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=39642 (Forgotten Villains)
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=40486 (Supergirl)
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=40603 (Superboy Prime)
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=40718 (Creeper)

Superman:
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=40619
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=40732 (Superboy Prime/Revenge Squad/Mourning Supergirl)
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=40962 (Supergirl's Secret Marriage)

:s:

Quote from: "Super Monkey"

nearly every entry DIED during that mess of a series

Quite nicely sums up the overwhelming major problem of including Crisis in this project.

My essential fan persona loves knowing all about Crisis and my brain was pre-conditioned by years of comics reading to shoe-horn any retcon into DC continuity so this is a hard decision. Ultimately this is a question of matters beyond general questions of continuity and comics history. It is a question of art, of taste, and of (dare I say it) integrity. Most of the people on this board, those people who are fans more of the pre-Crisis Superman stories and of what they represent in terms of quality and even morality, would agree that the propaganda purposes of this project preclude any reference to Crisis. It could be considered a form of controlled censorship, I suppose, but it really is judicious editing.

That being said, I'm a fan of the actual Crisis series and as a teenager devoured it whole cloth. Ironically the story is a fantastic homage to all the aspects of DC continuity which I love: the multiple Earths, the variations on the Superman origin myth, obscure characters, high melodrama. Only in retrospect did I realize what we had lost with Crisis and what we are trying to regain with projects like the encyclopedia.

As a side note, an interesting article in Wired magazine this month about the Wikipedia folks leads me to believe that Supermanica will eventually be contained within a vast web of interactive encyclopedia projects and our various continuity issues will be rendered moot through hyperlinks.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/wiki.html

Having supported the inclusion of DC Comics Presents as canon, I prefer to keep the entire series intact. And one of my favorite characters was Superboy-Prime. I vote AYE.

But may I make a suggestion?

Perhaps Supermanica SHOULD be writen as a Pre-Crisis "Earth-1" tome, but like it or not the Crisis is simply too big to ignore. I earlier suggested adding a "Crisis to Reboot" addenda to appropriate entries for completion's sake -- thus we cover the "gray area" but keep it separate from the main entry.

But if there's not too much material (new entries or updates) from this "gray area", then why not combine them ALL into ONE section completely SEPARATE from the main Supermanica. Call it the "Dark Appendix" or the "Twilight Compendium". Under a brief description of the Crisis and the Reboot (we can drop the "Earth-1" viewpoint pretense in this reference) we can then list in alphabetical order the noteworthy addenda -- Superboy-Prime, the death of Supergirl, the last issue of DCCP versus the Imaginary Story "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?", etc.

This approach keeps the Supermanica "pure" and untainted by the Crisis, covering Superman in his full Gold/Silver/Bronze Age glory. But the separate book covering Crisis and afterwards would complete the Legend (though obviously not in a way that many prefer, even twenty years after the fact). However, this could be a workable compromise.

Quote from: "dto"

the separate book covering Crisis and afterwards would complete the Legend (though obviously not in a way that many prefer, even twenty years after the fact). However, this could be a workable compromise.

Crisis is so big it should be ignored.

The whole idea of Supermanica in my opinion is that the legend is not complete but ongoing (or at least in limbo) and that Crisis and Byrne were mistakes.

I think a separate encyclopedia that assumes Superman began in 1986 and that Earth is an amalgam of now-defunct alternate Earths is a better idea. * DC has recently published such an encyclopedia. The Supermanica may seem a little necrophilic, focusing on apparently dead or never-existing people and events, but entire cultures like ancient Egypt and Tibet are based on similar premises (not to mention cultures based on the New Testament). :wink:

*You could even include Supermanica entries in this other encyclopedia, but note at the end of each entry: "This person/object ceased to exist in November 1985 (or whenever it was), Crisis No.12: "The Whole Enchilada"," or whatever.

Kind of a thankless/useless task, really, like building sand-castles.

The Crisis did not destroy the Superman Legend: Byrne did.

Superman continued right on being Superman through the Crisis and even beyond. He was still from the marvelous Silver Age version of Krypton that we all love, he still visited Kandor, he was morning for his cousin, Kara.

It wan't until the reboot that the Silver age Superman was destroyed.

I posted a poll earlier asking what is your favoriate era of Superman.

The Schwartz Era finished a close second to Weisinger's. Are we now going to chop the end of of his great run because it touches on the Crisis?

It as been said that the Crisis is too big and will override everything else.

I do no believe this.

It has not bee proposed that the Crisis issues themselves be included. Only that those Superman issues set durring the Crisis be included, but even if the Crisis maxi-series was canon it would only be a small part of this project.

Most of the entries in the GSB would be unaffected and has for Superman who is the real subject here, his entry in the GSB is dozens of pages long. Completing it in the same style up to the reboot would take dozens more. The Crisis would be only a small part of it at the end.

And as I pointed out earlier Superman survives the Crisis with his history intact. If we leave off there the legend still continues.

This is the problem with Crisis. It generates so much heat that it takes over.

I say that we include the issues in question. The problem is that if we decide that we can remove select issues that we dislike, who's to say where it will stop? Should we continue on to writers or artists that we don't like? We can't do that. I continue to stump for the approach that we either have to include all of a given title or none of it.

Having said that, however, I think we should have an unstated policy of completely ignoring Crisis itself and any events around it - and that includes anything that would point out or acknowledge the existence of Crisis, like having holes in the listed run of canonical issues.

So for instance, if one of these issues of DCCP shows that Professor Pepperwinkle owns a grey tabby cat, we can add the bit of information to the Pepperwinkle entry with the appropriate reference. But if Superman goes off to join the Monitor's battle with the Anti-Monitor and gets swallowed by Shadows, we completely ignore that and don't mention it.

Quote from: "The Starchild"

How about this?

When including anything from the Crisis that is in the canonical sources think of it as the Silver Age Superman would have thought of it in the post-crisis, per-reboot issues. Don't think of it as a post-byrne reader would think of it.

So yes, Superman faced the anti-monitoer, yes Kara is dead, yes history has been altered somewhat. But life goes on and he still remembers the events that he has participated in, in his 50 year career. He's still spent the last 50 years battling Lex Luther and enduring the pranks of Mxyzptlk. He's still spent 5 decades sorting out his feelings for Lois and being Jim Olsen's Pal.

Quote from: "Admiral Chew"

So yes, Superman faced the anti-monitoer, yes Kara is dead, yes history has been altered somewhat.

Only if it's mentioned in one of the Superman titles. And I don't think we need to mention the history altering aspect even if it is. Remember Fleisher's approach of treating the conflicting continuity as all-one.

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But life goes on and he still remembers the events that he has participated in, in his 50 year career. He's still spent the last 50 years battling Lex Luther and enduring the pranks of Mxyzptlk. He's still spent 5 decades sorting out his feelings for Lois and being Jim Olsen's Pal.

I still say we don't have to actually mention Crisis itself - just say something like, "late in the chronicles."

Quote from: "The Starchild"

Quote from: "Admiral Chew"

So yes, Superman faced the anti-monitoer, yes Kara is dead, yes history has been altered somewhat.

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I still say we don't have to actually mention Crisis itself - just say something like, "late in the chronicles."

That's fine I can live with all of that. Personally, I'd rather Crisis 1-12 be canonical. They are very much a part of the same Superman mythos as all the other pre-Byrne comics. But I can live without that. I just don't think the baby should be thrown out with the bath water.

Kara's death is mentioned in at least three (currently) canonical sources. So I think it should be included. We don't have to say that she died "in the Crisis" but if the fact that the anti-monitor killed her comes up in the Superman titles I don't think that fact should be banned.

One must realise that as wonderfully executed, satisfying and as historically significant as 'Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow?' may be, it is presented as an imaginary story taking place outside normal continuity. While it does bring all the narrative strands of the Pre-Crisis, or rather the Earth-1 Superman who survived the Crisis with his history intact to a satisfying end as much as one can in two issues, with only a few nit-picking continuity errors, *spoilers* the child of a powerless (due to Gold Kryptonite) Kal-El and a normal human woman Lois developing super powers; Superwoman still existing after her ancestor Jimmy Olsen was killed; a certain imp from the 5th diemension is suddenly revealed to have been an evil destructive entity all along *end spoilers* - but it's primary function as a story is to be a final homage to that era and not really taking place in that continuity. (Like the best of the imaginary stories, it is ment to be what the reader would like to see, which in this case, is how would the Superman saga come to an end).

Crisis on the other hand I think merits an inclusion into Supermanica, but should really should just present an outline on the events that took place, (with other entries for the main players, such as Monitor, Anti-Monitor, Alexander Luthor III and Hardbringer), with the main focus being on how it affected Superman. Kara's death, regardless of what it was intended to be (removing Kryptonian survivors from the mythos), her heroic sacrifice is one of the defining moments in her and her cousin's history. There is no need for ridiculous 'Due to the effects of the Crisis, this character and his history ceased to exist' nonsense in every single entry. It is something like that that would cause the Crisis to overwhelm Supermanica, when it can simply be presented in one-entry (with several others for the aforementioned main players). And as mentioned, Crisis can merely be a footnote in Superman's entry.

So in conclusion, the cut-off point should not be before Crisis, but rather, right before the 'Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow?' issues. (How would keeping those issues in Supermanica, be 'continuing the Pre-Crisis or Earth-1 Superman' when they ended it?). As the Superman presented in the months immediately after Crisis was the same Superman who existed before it.

Quote from: "Kal's Pal"

So in conclusion, the cut-off point should not be before Crisis, but rather, right before the 'Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow?' issues. (How would keeping those issues in Supermanica, be 'continuing the Pre-Crisis or Earth-1 Superman' when they ended it?). As the Superman presented in the months immediately after Crisis was the same Superman who existed before it.

I agree but I'd got ahead and leave the two issues that include "What Happend to the Man of Tomorrow" in the list of canonical sources just as all of the other imaginary stories are in the list.

People just need to recognized the it is imaginary and treat it the same way they would treat a story like "The Amazing Story of Superman-Red/Superman-blue" when doing the entries.

Quote from: "Kal's Pal"

Crisis on the other hand I think merits an inclusion into Supermanica, but should really should just present an outline on the events that took place, (with other entries for the main players, such as Monitor, Anti-Monitor, Alexander Luthor III and Hardbringer), with the main focus being on how it affected Superman. Kara's death, regardless of what it was intended to be (removing Kryptonian survivors from the mythos), her heroic sacrifice is one of the defining moments in her and her cousin's history. There is no need for ridiculous 'Due to the effects of the Crisis, this character and his history ceased to exist' nonsense in every single entry.

It's not even clear that they all did cease to exist due to the Crisis.

Most if not all of the Superman Mythos was clearly intact after the Crisis. Kandor, the Phantom Zone, Bizarro World were all seen post-crisis. Why should be assume that the Anti-Superman Gang and The Puzzler disappeared due to the Crisis.

It was Byrne's reboot that erased all of those things. Not the Crisis.

It seems like there is a division between Byrne-tolerators and Crisis-toleraters on this issue. :D

I guess Crisis did introduce some major changes to the last 6 months of regular Superman titles, mostly eliminating the posibility of a team-up with Earth-2 Superman & Co. and any new stories with Supergirl.

From my point of view the major Superman-related aspects of Crisis can be dealt with (if it comes to that --and voting seems to be going that way) with a minor reference in a long entry. Can I suggest that when the time comes to make these references, that the facts be presented as "apparent"? As in "Supergirl apparently sacrificed her life in November 1985 to defeat the reality threatening Beyonder" (or whatever). Write it as if you were Fleisher, handing in his encyclopedia manuscript right in the middle of a 2-issue Supergirl story circa 1975.

And one more argument for not including Crisis: why aren't we including all the other JLA-JSA Crisis episodes or other series wherein Superman meets another character for the first time or when Earth-S is firmly entrenched into Superman's reality or when Black Canary becomes part of E-1 continuity, etc.? Crisis is a non-Superman comic book series in which Superman plays a pivotal role. So is JLA. So is whatever Batman stories Supes has appeared in. So is All-Star Comics. Or AS Squadron, for that matter.

Since it looks like Crisis will be coming to the Project, it important to understand just what this means.

All it means that the issues during Crisis and after up until the reboot will now be allow to be included into the project. Any character that didn't appear in these books should not be added as an entry no matter how important they were to Crisis itself.

The Crisis mini series itself is NOT, since it is no more canonical than the other books which star or co-star Superman which are not being included.

Just these Crisis crossiver issues:
DC Comics Presents 78, 86-88, 95
Superman 413-415

More on them later.

Also:

"What Happend to the Man of Tomorrow" is an imaginary story. It will be added to the new imaginary stories Category, once that's made ;)

I don't see the need for a separate imaginary stories category :?: Categories are for categories of objects, people, and other physical things - not for separating continuites. As nightwing has noted, Fleisher went out of his way to treat everything as one continuity, but with notes pointing out when it contradicts itself.

I think it makes sense to continue to treat imaginary stories just as Fleisher did: He included events from the imaginary stories in the various entries, but with a note that those events are from an "imaginary story." Here's an illustration taken from the Lana Lang entry of the Great Superman Book:

(http://superman.nu/a/Encyclopaedia/images/lana3.jpg)

Therefore the events in Superman Red/Blue and in Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? can be included in the Superman entry, but with a prefix like, "In June 1986, in an imaginary story, Superman...."

Quote from: "The Starchild"

Well, we are not Fleisher ;) Besides he was nuts :P

These stories are not mere continuities; they are not a part of any continuity and never have been and were never suppose to be. Therefore, to include every imaginary tale in the Superman entry would only serve to clutter and confuse that entry. I guess we can have another poll for this if need be.

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And asterisk those issues you cited above, Beppo, and send them to the Forbidden Zone page.

This all reminds me of the story of Pandora:

In Greek mythology, Pandora was the first woman on earth. Zeus ordered Hephaestus, the god of craftsmanship, to create her and he did, using water and earth. The gods endowed her with many talents; Aphrodite gave her beauty, Apollo music, Hermes persuasion, and so forth. Hence her name: Pandora, "all-gifted".

When Prometheus stole fire from heaven, Zeus took vengeance by presenting Pandora to Epimetheus, Prometheus' brother. With her, Pandora had a jar which she was not to open under any circumstance. Impelled by her natural curiosity, Pandora opened the jar, and all evil contained escaped and spread over the earth. She hastened to close the lid, but the whole contents of the jar had escaped, except for one thing which lay at the bottom, and that was Hope.

from: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/pandora.html

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we are not pretending that the Earth-2 and Earth-1 Superman are the same person like he did.

Of course, since for the purposes of his book, the 2 Supermen did not actually meet each other until 1977, and the book deals with information only up to 1964 (and was published, I think only in 1978), he could hardly be said to be "pretending" anything --it wasn't even a question.

The conception of Earth-2 and all the other Earths, as much as I love them and as much as I'm a fan --and despise Crisis for their destruction, is in many ways a less elegant solution, not to mention confusing to many outsiders (quixotically, the target audience of the encyclopedia), than Fleisher's studied rationales.

And, I would argue, there was quite a bit of divergence even among the various DC writers and editors of different periods about the true extent of the multiverse: outside of the few instances mentioned by the Schwartz-edited Silver Age books like Flash and the annual JLA crossovers, the hard-and-fast rules of the multiverse were best articulated by fans writing in fanzines --until those fans became comics writers in the 1970s and started dishing out new concepts like Mr. & Mrs Superman (and later in the various DCU handbooks) and, ultimately, Crisis on Infinite Earths.

How about this for a 'Crisis On Infinite Earths' entry?:

Crisis On Infinite Earths. A massive conflict that spanned the Multiverse, engineered by the malevolent entity known as the Anti-Monitor. The Crisis involved a multitude of super-powered beings from several realities, both heroes and villians, among them Superman of Earth One and the Superman of Earth 2. It is also recognised as the conflict in which Supergirl tragically lost her in life, and during which Superman encountered the Superboy of Earth-Prime .

When the Crisis was over, and the Anti-Monitor defeated, only one universe and one reality remained. However, it should be noted that in the immediate aftermath of the Crisis, the history and life of the Superman of Earth One remained intact. However it is doubtless that any event in which he had encountered a being from another reality, such as Kal-L of Earth 2, had been erased from history.

... it's a short entry, covers all bases concerning Superman, and merely draws upon synopsis information from the crossover Crisis issues.

Crisis On Infinite Earths. A massive conflict that spanned the Multiverse, engineered by the malevolent entity known as the Anti-Monitor, who hailed from the Anti-Matter Universe. The Crisis involved a multitude of super-powered beings from several realities, both heroes and villians, among them Superman of Earth-1 and the Superman of Earth 2, all of whom to varying degrees and in various roles sought to prevent the Anti-Monitor from destroying the Multiverse, and later the positive matter universe. It is also recognised as the conflict in which Supergirl tragically lost her in life, and during which Superman encountered the Superboy of Earth-Prime .

When the Crisis was over, and the Anti-Monitor defeated, only one universe and one reality remained. However, it should be noted that in the immediate aftermath of the Crisis, the history and life of the Superman of Earth-1 remained intact. However it is doubtless that any event in which he had encountered a being from another reality, such as Kal-L of Earth-2, had been erased from history. (Based on synopsis information and conjecture from issues ?)

The entry is ready to go up, so can anyone give the list of the Crisis crossover issues?

BTW, I'd too back the change of 'Multiverse' to 'Infinite Worlds'. :D

Quote from: "The Starchild"

Quote from: "Kal's Pal"

The entry is ready to go up, so can anyone give the list of the Crisis crossover issues?

Beppo already posted one somewhere. It might even be a good idea to read them before writing the entry.

Heh... thanks, just noticed that. :wink: And I've already re-read the two crossover issues already up on the site, both of which merely seem to give a general idea of the Crisis. (Did the other issues give a more detailed outline? I don't mind dumbing down details in the proposed entry... the idea is merely give the Crisis a small entry, so that way it is acknowledged, but not so much it takes over the encyclepedia). By the way, can Crisis go under a new 'Events' cateogory?

I don't know how many people here grew up reading the Golden Age Superman, or the 50's Superman, of the Sliver Age Superman. Most people here grew up reading the Bronze Age Superman, that was my Superman, the one that got beat up by Ali! So Crisis happen when we were kids or teenagers, in my case a kid.

I wouldn't even have a Crisis entry, or it should be the last thing up on the site if we do. We should just worry about about filling in all the Golden Age, 50's, Sliver Age and Broze Age stuff, IMHO. Better time spent if you ask me.

Someone finish Superboy-Prime's entry already ;)

Quote from: "Super Monkey"

I wouldn't even have a Crisis entry, or it should be the last thing up on the site if we do.

Exactly! I don't get all the worrying either! That's why I just proposed a very short entry, people were getting all in a flap about how to deal with the Crisis on the site. Personally, I feel if there is one thing that has to be done with the site first, is to have all the major entries like Superman, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen, Lex Luthor, Supergirl and Perry White all typed up from TGSB.

Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Superman Through the Ages! => Supermanica => Topic started by: Great Rao on March 07, 2005, 10:46:35 PM