Superman Through the Ages! Forum

What's the opinion on this?  Personally, I think it's a little better than the last reboot.  It seems a little closer to the original stories.  Maybe that's because of the use of the names "Kid" and "Lad".

It was terrible, and creatively clueless. I have no idea why a too-clever-for-his-own-good unprofessional hack like Mark Waid has received such praise.

I agree with you, DoctorZero that it could be worse, but that's a little bit like saying, "well, it could be worse: sure, I have syphillis, but I could have been hit by a truck."

There is absolutely one right way to tell any story. Take Sherlock Holmes, for instance.

RIGHT WAY: A genius but morbidly eccentric detective at turn of the century England with enormous deductive power.

WRONG WAY:  Sherlock Holmes lives in space and fights Freemasons.

This is why fanfic is fanfic; because there is a difference between a fan and a professional. A fan will hoist their flawed conceits onto the characters no matter the evidence to the contrary, for example, the idea that Batman and Robin are gay for each other despite all their extensive characterization as heterosexual. A professional, on the other hand, sees what is there, puts the pieces together, and builds up instead of tears down.

Perhaps Mark Waid's vision of a dystopian future where information is controlled by an oppressive government MAY be interesting, but it isn't the Legion of Super-Heroes. It isn't who they are. Mark Waid did not create the Legion; he has no right to impose his fannish conceits and concepts unrelated to the Legion on their history on us. Doing so is the height of arrogance and hubris, because of the implication: Mark Waid knows how to do the Legion better than all the other writers that did the Legion.

And to complete Mark Waid's complete and total fannishness and lack of professionalism, he is using his favorite Legionnaires only, and making his favoritest character in the whole wide world, Brainiac 5, the main character; unsurprisingly for a consummate fan like Waid, he dominates the series in a way that overshadows the other characters.

In short: Mark Waid is getting his Legion of Super-Heroes fanfic published.

And to add to this, he heaps scorn and contempt on the so-called "die-hards," the fans that made Legion what it is - by choosing to ignore Legion history and Legion villians. Words fail me at the egomania of Napoleonic proportions on exhibition here.

To be absolutely fair, Mark Waid has some interesting ideas (Colossal Boy being from a race of giants, and his superpower is the ability to shrink) but his interesting ones are overshadowed by his derivative, tiresome inferior ones. Oh, wow, there's another foreshadowed distant ULTIMATE SPACE WAR coming! You know, EXACTLY like the ones in Babylon 5 and Simon Greene's Deathstalker and a million other space opera novels.

I haven't read it.

But.
 :D

What you describe (dystopian future/amoral government) doesn't really seem at odds with the classic Silver Age Legion I'm most familiar with.  I mean, "Science Police"?  Retro designs?

Not an expert on the soap opera complexity of the 70s-80s Legion, where the background of the adventures might have been delved into more.  Seems like an inventive revamp (number 56?) doomed to failure, rather than a travesty and perversion.  Of course, the art is probably horrible.  And as an adult (at least, I look like one most days), it is very hard to get me interested in any "new" mainstream superhero comics, done straight.  

Do the main characters still have the same personalities?  That would be the litmus test for me.  Are they still heroic, somewhat bland young idealists with godlike powers over time and space?

I wish I could say yes, Telle. But I'm afraid not.

Brainiac 5 has a cold rationalism that makes him not only unlikeable, but downright despicable. He's supposed to be logical and calculating, but the way Marky Mark does it, he comes off as unbearably arrogant and manipulative, and what's worse, is he's always right, always correct, because Mark has made him THE MAIN CHARACTER. Brainiac 5 is the series's Jar Jar Binks; an irritating character that takes more than their fair share of attention. He is not precisely like Jar Jar, though; Jar Jar was irritating because he served no purpose, but Brainiac 5 in this series is irritating for the opposite reason: he does everything, and it's all about him.

Princess Projectra is a Paris Hilton type in the Legion for kicks, kept around despite her absence of superpowers because she provides the money they need. My God, at least Snake Jecky had dignity. (I was partial to the snake Jeckie idea; I love Ray Harryhausen and creatures, and at least Snake Jeckie had Projectra's sweet, proud personality)

Oh, and did I mention that now Shadow Lass is now an ass-kicking Klingon Warrior? This is proof positive Waid knows that he stinks as much as I do. I cannot believe he ever considered this was a good idea at any point, but he made it anyway because he needs to be kept in peppermint schnapps and ecstasy tablets.

He did though, make Karate Kid Asian. While Mark Waid's Legion is an appalling creative abortion, this isn't the worst idea in the world.

You know what would be even more hilarious? A Legionnaire named "Voodoo Kid" who has Voodoo powers but is a blondehaired white boy from Orange County.  :D

I've noticed that Brainiac 5 now seems to be Virl Dox of the L.E.G.I.O.N. series.
Does anyone know why they had to reboot the Legion yet again?  If it was due to sale wasn't there any other way to boost them rather than start over once again?
I suspect that it was sales.  The addition of Superboy the last few issues was an indication that DC was looking for a way to pump up the book.

Tell me something I don't know.



It wasn't because of sales, because the Legion has never sold well, ever, and has always been a comic with niche appeal to a group of vocal fans that respond to the Legion with an unusual sense of identification (I should know  :D  ). In other words, Superman and Batman and X-Men are vanilla or chocolate ice cream, but Legion is rum raisin.

Legion's last few issues showed increasingly transparent desperate attempts for sales - including having Dream Girl tied up on one cover, the addition of that chump Superboy, and Darkseid showing up.

I suspect the cause of the reboot is just an act of monstrous self-aggrandisement by Mark Waid himself. He's always wanted to write the Legion and has said so on many occasions, and his big name is enough to convince the Powers That Be to get his little vanity project off the ground.

I love this new reboot. It's really the first time that I've really collected the Legion at all. I'm glad to see that Waid is getting (well deserved) praise for this series. Who better to reboot the Legion than the guy who wrote Superman's new origin?

The adults vs. teenagers is always a good theme, and I'm surprised none of the past Legion writers have ever touched on this. The series is remarkably counter-culture and that's probably one of the reasons that readers really seems to connect with the new series.

I like the theme too. BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER was predicated on three premises:

1) Youth and new ideas always are preferable to age and tradition.

2) Authority figures are evil, and rebels good.

3) People that cry loudly about their own morality tend to be the evilest people of all.

But I take exception to the notion that Waid invented this conflict for the Legion. He is, though, the one to blow it out of proportion by placing it alongside an incongruously dystopian future.

The Legion's Youth Rebellion originated under the Shooter run. There, they go to planets filled with scowling mindcontrolled grownups keeping kids from sharing malts and doing the Venusian Sock Hop. In "The Outcast Legionnaires," (1967) the Legionnaires were youth rebels against a Universo-controlled cosmos. Later, we got the Legionnaires battling Mantis Morlo's pollution factories, which threatened the universe. "Counterculture" among the Legion is nothing new and certainly wasn't created by Waid.

So, this run is getting "raved reviews," eh? As a personal aside, nothing makes me more sad than the cultish, personal devoted following of terrible, untalented creators. If Waid, Ellis, Morrison, Bendis, Byrne, and Giffen want to be terrible, it is tragic but they are the failures of only one man. If these same men can garner hordes of bobbleheaded robot supporters, it is a failure of the human race. It was P.T. Barnum that said "nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

How can you refer to everyone who likes those writers as robots? You're just dismissing their beliefs because you don't agree with them. That isn't fair at all--not to the writers and certainly not to the fans.

My least favorite era of the Legion's publishing history was the Giffen one.  The "adult Legion gone haywire" era as I like to call it.  The fact that they had to introduce cloned kid legionnaires and then say that maybe the clones were the real ones indicates to me how wrong they went with the strip at that time.

I didn't say that everyone that likes certain writers are robots. I actually have some otherwise very intelligent friends that liked Mark Waid's FLASH, and even I have a soft spot for Grant Morrison's JLA.

I am referring, however, to the baffling Cult of Personality that surrounds lousy writers; the definitive case of this is our old Canuck buddy Johnny Byrne, whose ByrneRobotics is one of the most fascinating websites ever, in an onlooker car-crash sort of way. Warren Ellis's boards are the ultimate Echo Chamber for his own views, and Warren prunes the boards to make sure it stays that way - woe forbid you ever disagree with the Great Man on anything. Usually I try my best not to stereotype, but Ellis's fans are truly so identical in outlook because Ellis's views are institutionalized among them; if you've met one hardcore Ellis fan, you've more or less met them all. Ellis's fandom makes College Campus Objectivism look like a Diversity Seminar.

Hello:

I'm new in this Forum, but I'm a old fan of LSH.

This new stories de LEGION are very interesting and the art is good, but I hate the new concept of "this" Legion.

I don't like some new origins, I don't like fights between legionnaires ¿What happened with the union of the group? ¿Intrigues? ¿Secrets? ¿Rivalry between Cosmic and Brainiac? Come on, this seems elections for President. Besides don't convince me the conflict of generations. The villains are Fatal Five, Mordru, etc., not daddy and mommy.

It is my opinion. Crazy of me because I am buying them yet.

LLL

David

Welcome David!

I'm sure others here will have something to say about your new Legion criticisms but I'd just like to add:  comparing supervillains to parental figures is a very interesting idea and one of my personal hobbyhorses.  Would superheroes exist if there were no villains?

BTW the Legion sold very well during the 60s so much so as they wentr froma backup feature in Adventure (to Superboy's lead) to taking over the mag. As well as Superboy's mag too later.

Hello TELLE:

Exactly. You said it. Superheroes no exist if there are not supervillains. I think that.

If only there are villains, then there are only heroes (people like us).

So long

DAVID

Considering what's going on with Supergirl currently, it's clear DC is going to keep rebooting characters in an effort to find a version which clicks with it's readers.  I expect eventually there's going to be a new Superboy one day, too.  How long the feature's been around doesn't seem to matter to DC now.  Just look at Doom Patrol.  DC's current line of thinking is if the strip isn't selling like it used to, then reboot it and if they have to they are willing to throw away the past history.
Any bets on if Infinite Crisis is yet another way to try to explain away all the recent reboots?

Actually I think they sold well up until near the end of the run of the two books which ran concurrent, Legion of Super Heroes and Legionnaires.  The Giffen "adult Legion" strip didn't sell well, and that was the beginning of the Legion's recent sales woes.  After Legionnaires and LSH was dropped, we went through Legion Lost, Legion World and The Legion, all of which didn't do too well I think.  This is why DC did their current reboot.  

I think the reboot had good intentions, which was to restore some of the things DC felt the fans liked about the Legion, which was the code names and basic structure of the Legion, but they ended up adding new factors like the youth vs. adult conflict.  I also note they now have a limit on the number of Legionnaires who can be active Super Heroes due to the flight rings.  Way back in the original strip they had a limit of 25 members according to a silly UP law.

Hello:

Never liked Legion's Giffen.

I think "reboots" is not solution for increase sales. How issues will have this "current" Legion? In two o three years, a new reboot will born?

Bye

DAVID