Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Superman Comic Books! => Superman! => Topic started by: JulianPerez on August 05, 2005, 12:58:31 AM



Title: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: JulianPerez on August 05, 2005, 12:58:31 AM
Is there anyone more qualified to write Superman than Mr. Silver Age himself, Kurt Busiek? Busiek has obviously demonstrated his encyclopedaic knowledge of comics history, the proof of which is...well, the whole of AVENGERS FOREVER.

Kurt is skilled at characterization. Superman was always at his best when written by writers that know how to get poignant moments out of the emotions the Super-characters feel. For instance, Maggin's treatment of Luthor as a misanthropic misfit, whose rage, misdirected onto Superman, comes from his lifetime of being misunderstood. Witness the sentimentality of how Superman and Supergirl maintain their Kryptonian holidays, despite the fact these rites only have meaning to them. Watch Siegel's tragedy of Krypton. Busiek understands how to tell sad, poignant stories: look at "Tarnished Angel" for ASTRO CITY and the story arc in his AVENGERS run where Wonder Man confesses how much he envies the Vision, and the Vision confesses how others must pity him for his attempts to be truly "human."

Superman's courageous characterization in Busiek's JLA/AVENGERS showed that Mr. Silver Age knows exactly who Superman is. Superman's overreaction at the Marvel Universe comes from a personality trait in him, his anxiety at doing too much for mankind. And just look how in the climax, Superman triumphantly battles on by sheer force of will?

(And if writing the greatest intercompany crossover ever written doesn't qualify Busiek to write Superman, what will?)

The Samaritan in ASTRO CITY, who bears more than a little similarity to Big Blue, is the most spot-on characterization of Superman we've seen yet, and it wasn't even really a Superman story.

If Busiek ever does take over, one thing's for sure: we'll see some great old villains. Most writers when given a comic, the first thing they do now that they can play with the toys is pull out the biggest and most famous villains. Not Busiek; when he was given JLA, he used great, underused guys like the Construct. His AVENGERS run, Mr. Silver Age uses great, classic and unjustly obscure bad guys like Kulan Gath, Moses Magnum, and Morgan Le Fay (Ultron doesn't even show up until the second year of his run, and Kang until the third or fourth).

And best of all, Busiek hates John Byrne. Not literally, of course; it's hard to imagine loveable old Kurt, who has never had a bad word to say to anyone, hating anybody. But if you really look at Busiek's career, he's spent a lot of it undoing the thoughtless dunderheaded idiocies that Byrne inflicted on comics. AVENGERS FOREVER was basically one long excuse to establish that Byrne's dehumanizing notion the Vision wasn't really the android human torch was a load of baloney. Busiek restored the Vision's classic origin from Byrne's fat clumsy whittling fingers, and his AVENGERS run showed that the Vision had a soul, and was not, as Byrne stated, "a toaster." Also, when Byrne retooled Spider-Man's origin in SPIDER-MAN: CHAPTER ONE, including wiping out Busiek's UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN, Busiek said "I...I wish he wouldn't do that." Now, for the inoffensive, kindhearted Mr. Silver Age, that's the equivalent of a pagelong harangue from the likes of Grant Morrison or Warren Ellis.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: NotSuper on August 05, 2005, 02:33:37 PM
I once asked Kurt Busiek which version of Krypton he preferred over at Millarworld (http://www.millarworld.net/). Here's what he said:

Quote
The one that blew up!

kdb

PS - seriously, that's a question I've never considered. I think the old pre-Crisis headband-Krypton had some dorky-*** fashion sense, but the cotton-balls-down-the-arms post-Crisis Krypton didn't have battery beasts, so that's kind of a wash.

As long as the place blows up, I think it's done its job.


There's actually a thread where you can ask Kurt questions (and he graciously answers almost all of them)--check it out here (http://www.millarworld.net/index.php?showtopic=39452).

Oh, and I agree that Kurt should be writing Superman. I love the guy's work.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on August 05, 2005, 03:03:35 PM
He did write the "remake" of Superboy-Prime called "Superman: Secret Identity" you can read the 3 part Superboy-Prime story that this story is loosely based on on this very website.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1401204511.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

A small review:

Superman's origins have been imagined and reimagined over the years. Here is a new take on the character's roots. Busiek and Immonen start with mild-mannered teen Clark Kent, who, after years of being kidded about his name, suddenly discovers that he has powers like those of his fictional namesake. He feels obligated to use his capabilities for good but realizes that, to live a normal life, he has to operate in secret, performing his superfeats covertly. His precautions prove insufficiently protective, however, and government agents investigating the existence of a real-life superhero have ominous plans for him. Busiek here uses the same trick--setting characters with fantastic powers in a "real-life" world closely resembling that of readers--that has made his Astro City a critical favorite, and Immonen greatly aids him with quietly powerful, realistic artwork. Superman has remained popular for nearly 70 years because of the appeal of having powers "far beyond those of mortal men." Busiek gives us a glimpse of what actually possessing them would probably entail, taking a cue from the contemporary superheroic slogan, "With great power comes great responsibility." Gordon Flagg
Copyright © American Library Association. All rights reserved


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: King Krypton on August 06, 2005, 11:40:20 AM
Quote
And best of all, Busiek hates John Byrne. Not literally, of course; it's hard to imagine loveable old Kurt, who has never had a bad word to say to anyone, hating anybody. But if you really look at Busiek's career, he's spent a lot of it undoing the thoughtless dunderheaded idiocies that Byrne inflicted on comics. AVENGERS FOREVER was basically one long excuse to establish that Byrne's dehumanizing notion the Vision wasn't really the android human torch was a load of baloney. Busiek restored the Vision's classic origin from Byrne's fat clumsy whittling fingers, and his AVENGERS run showed that the Vision had a soul, and was not, as Byrne stated, "a toaster." Also, when Byrne retooled Spider-Man's origin in SPIDER-MAN: CHAPTER ONE, including wiping out Busiek's UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN, Busiek said "I...I wish he wouldn't do that." Now, for the inoffensive, kindhearted Mr. Silver Age, that's the equivalent of a pagelong harangue from the likes of Grant Morrison or Warren Ellis.


I remember Byrne bragging about trashing Busiek's Spider-Man material, boasted that he "Man of Steel'd it clean outta here" and that he saw no gaps in the original books that needed to be filled in, thus he felt Busiek's stuff was redundant.

As for Busiek on Superman...maybe the All-Stars version. DC took advantage of his recent illness by stiffing him of his JLA run to promote their Infinite Crisis event (which is really just another excuse to make the DCU pitch-black, bleak, and miserable). I can't imagine them letting him do the usual Superman on a regular basis. The All-Stars version? He's got a shot.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on August 06, 2005, 03:23:42 PM
I have Secret Identity, it scares the heck out of me. The perfectly portrayed despicable acts of the lengths the US Government would go to control a Superman.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: JulianPerez on August 06, 2005, 03:35:41 PM
Quote from: "RedSunOfKrypton"
I have Secret Identity, it scares the heck out of me. The perfectly portrayed despicable acts of the lengths the US Government would go to control a Superman.


All the more reason Kurt Busiek is worthy of acclaim if he can breathe fear into that tired boogeyman, the Secret Government Conspiracy.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on August 06, 2005, 10:56:04 PM
It's not a boogeyman if they really ARE after you...>_>  :P


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: NotSuper on August 06, 2005, 11:19:37 PM
I'd like to see Geoff Johns write Superman, too. He seems to have a fondness for the pre-Crisis DCU, and Rebirth was just a great story.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: JulianPerez on August 08, 2005, 02:26:54 AM
You know who else might be a great Superman writer?

I wonder if they can somehow dust off Steve Englehart?

For pete's sake, the guy wrote the definitive characterization of BATMAN, the greatest AVENGERS story ever (Celestial Madonna) and possibly the greatest Avengers run ever (only rivaled by Stan and Don's and Busiek/Perez/Davis), and literally thousands of comics including Superman himself in a tragically brief but amazing eight issue run on JUSTICE LEAGUE. His STRANGERS comic, the only comic in the entire Malibu line that was worth reading, shows that Steve is still a giant just like he was back in the day. Copy and paste every comment I made about Busiek's skills at characterization here: Steve's the guy that taught Kurt every trick he knows, and if you don't take my word for it, ask Mr. Silver Age himself.

One might say that Englehart is more a "Batman" type writer that, like Denny O'Neil, is intimidated by Superman's space opera focus and power level. This is untrue simply by looking at Steve's resume; Steve can do "cosmic." His DR. STRANGE run featured a race to the dawn of time, and had Eternity destroy and then recreate the entire earth. Steve's COYOTE featured big-time concepts and indian spirits and was "approved by the Cosmic Code." His AVENGERS run had a woman marrying a tree (and if that's not a SUPERMAN'S GIRL FRIEND LOIS LANE issue right there it ought to be), and look at his treatment of the high level abilities on display in AVENGERS/DEFENDERS WAR.

Even more evidence that shows he's qualified for Superman is his run on FANTASTIC FOUR. His FANTASTIC FOUR run, he made lemonade with the lemons given to him by the astonishingly mediocre and clueless run by John Byrne before him (Jonny Yellowbeard being clueless and mediocre? Nope, never seen that before  :twisted: ). Byrne had the blind Alicia leave her tormented, beautiful, tragic, wonderful Beauty/Beast relationship with the misshapen, self-pitying Thing to go after the hunky Jonny Storm who for some reason was suddenly a teenager again. And since this is our pirate captain we're talking about, Alicia dressed extra-slutty too. Oh, and did I mention his adolescent fixation with She-Hulk in various states of undress? Replacing the Thing - the emotional center of the team - with a half-naked marketing gimmick was the height of adolescent imbecility and obvious wankishness.

If I were a copy boy, I'd wear gloves to handle the pages where Byrne drew She-Hulk.

Getting on point: Steve came on the book and did a character-driven, rich run that made the characters shine when surrounded by the debris of the human bomb that is that talent-void Byrne. One wonders what he might be able to do for another Byrne target, Superman...


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Genis Vell on August 08, 2005, 06:33:48 AM
Busiek could write a good Superman. 2 years ago, when the Superstorm rumors invaded the web, I hoped to see he, Loeb and Waid aboard the Super Team! Luckily, by the way, I like the stories released since then.
And SECRET IDENTITY is one of the 3 or 4 best comics I read last year.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: NotSuper on August 09, 2005, 05:37:39 AM
Some more of Busiek's thoughts:

On his favorite titles and writers
Quote
I read tons of comics, new and old. I just did my Westfield order for the month, and it was about $250. And that's with getting all the DC books free and only buying trades from Marvel.

Some favorites these days include Y THE LAST MAN, FABLES, SAVAGE DRAGON, SLEEPER, USAGI YOJIMBO and PVP.

Alla them writers of those books are good.


On his favorite Superman story
Quote
I'm pretty fond of "The Miraculous Reappearance of Jonathan Kent" and the multi-part Luthor story that both hit shortly after ACTION #500. I thought they were the peak of Cary Bates's impressive run -- although Cary noted to be recently that the B-plot in the Jonathan Kent story, about a hippe named Starshine, has not aged well.

Perhaps surprisingly, I think SUPERMAN VS. MUHAMMAD ALI was a very strong book, too.


His favorite manga titles
Quote
I like Rumiko Takahashi's stuff most -- especially MAISON IKKOKU and ONE-POUND GOSPEL. That and a police procedural called FATHER & SON that as far as I know has never been translated.


On writers he follows, no matter the character, artist, or publisher
Quote
Stan Sakai, Paul Grist, Chuck Dixon, Mark Waid, Robert Kirkman, Ed Brubaker, Joss Whedon, Geoff Johns -- and others, I'm sure, that aren't leaping to mind just now.


On JLU
Quote
I've seen all of the JLU episodes, and a few of the earlier ones. I liked the two-parter that was adapted from Englehart's first full JLA story, with the Manhunters. And I liked the recent one with Booster Gold...


His feelings on the Golden and Silver Age stories
Quote
As with anything else, I like the good ones.


On whether he misses that kind of storytelling
Quote
No, I have lots of it. Any time I want to read a Cary Bates Flash story, I can choose from scores of them.


On whether he wants to see that kind of storytelling come back
Quote
For the most part, no -- as I noted, different times, different styles. It's fun to see that sort of thing occasionally, but I don't want to see modern books regularly imitating the Silver Age any more than I want to see modern TV shows striving to duplicate 1960s sitcoms.


As I've said, he's a pretty interesting guy.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: JulianPerez on August 09, 2005, 05:55:13 AM
He sure is. And a man of impeccable taste as well if he remembers Englehart's brief but shining JLA run (sometimes I think I'm the only one that does). Joss Whedon's work is occasionally too smartalecky for his own good, but overall he's more commonly good than bad (his X-Men run is an oasis in a creative drought, and he uses Wolverine as little as possible, and that's sharp). Though I am afraid I'm going to have to differ with Kurt when it comes to the snoozefest Y: THE LAST MAN. Sometimes I wonder if my opinion of Mark Waid is unfair because he followed off of FLASH the absolutely genius runs of Baron/Guice and Bill Messner-Loebs, and anything would suffer in the comparison to those two.

...and then I remember he created the "Speed Force."  :?

Though Kurt has on other occasions, said that he dislikes certain trends that occur in modern comics writing. For example, he laments the lack of use of the Thought Bubble, for example. He states that one of comics' greatest strengths is the fact that characters' internal thoughts can be made visible to the audience (something movies or television cannot do). If you look at Kurt's work, he's got thought bubbles everywhere, which goes to show he practices what he preaches.

I once heard a very interesting Kurt Busiek story, how at a comic book convention in 1982 he actually heckled Chris Claremont off stage, by saying "If you want the X-Men to be morally gray, why not have them do something actually morally vague, instead of killing off alien races?"

Rrrow! It's always the quiet ones that are tigers, you know.

Though I must confess, NotSuper, I wonder what your motivation is in posting these comments in particular on this board. Is it to make the general point that comics' past should remain in the past and Kurt Busiek agrees? Because whatever statements Busiek might make, any guy who packs the JLA with Elongated Man, Atom, Zatanna, and Hawkman, who gushes at any occasion about Steve Englehart, Gerber and Cary Bates, who brings up the Construct, Moses Magnum, and Morgan Le Fay, who comes up with fan theories involving - of all things - Kirby's DEVIL DINOSAUR, clearly doesn't have "let history be history" on his mind.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on August 26, 2005, 01:47:47 PM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
The Samaritan in ASTRO CITY, who bears more than a little similarity to Big Blue, is the most spot-on characterization of Superman we've seen yet, and it wasn't even really a Superman story.

I think he has Supes personality, but not necessarily the characterization, which is a subtly different thing.  Though he shouts "Great Krypton!" an awful lot, Superman isn't counting the seconds per day that he gets to "just fly", since he doesn't lead his life like that.  (If he did, he'd appear in every comic at once -- that's Batman's job lately :/).  Samaritan is at the other extreme of the super-mellow All Star Superman soon to be coming out, in fact, the guy who never learned the Guardians' lesson to let humans do lots of things for themselves.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: JulianPerez on August 27, 2005, 12:57:27 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
I think he has Supes personality, but not necessarily the characterization, which is a subtly different thing.  Though he shouts "Great Krypton!" an awful lot, Superman isn't counting the seconds per day that he gets to "just fly", since he doesn't lead his life like that.  (If he did, he'd appear in every comic at once -- that's Batman's job lately :/).  Samaritan is at the other extreme of the super-mellow All Star Superman soon to be coming out, in fact, the guy who never learned the Guardians' lesson to let humans do lots of things for themselves.


Interesting point about Samaritan, UncleMxy. Superman was always motivated by a vague humanitarianism and belief that all life has value, which is why he did what he did. Samaritan has a different motivation, which is the responsibility of having superpowers: for this reason, he finds himself resenting being Samaritan (in a very passive-aggressive way) for interfering with his wants and life.

...Actually now that I give the matter some thought, the two ARE very different. Though the dimensional "closet" and the "dream of flying" are clearly very MIRACLEMAN-derived.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 15, 2005, 11:07:30 PM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
I once heard a very interesting Kurt Busiek story, how at a comic book convention in 1982 he actually heckled Chris Claremont off stage, by saying "If you want the X-Men to be morally gray, why not have them do something actually morally vague, instead of killing off alien races?"

Rrrow! It's always the quiet ones that are tigers, you know.


This did not happen.

Whoever told you this story made it up or was misinformed.  I've never heckled anyone off any stage, and I don't think I went to any comicons in '82.  I did do an Ithacon in '83, but I don't recall if Chris was there.  Paul Smith was, at least.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on September 15, 2005, 11:46:11 PM
Welcome to the site Kurt Busiek, as you can see you have a lot of fans here, so I hope you will return and post when you are able.

:s:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 15, 2005, 11:54:35 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Welcome to the site Kurt Busiek, as you can see you have a lot of fans here, so I hope you will return and post when you are able.


I've been poking around -- it looks like a fun site.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: dto on September 16, 2005, 03:24:55 AM
Greetings, Mr. Busiek.  As a longtime fan of Superboy-Prime, I immensely enjoyed your "Superman: Secret Identity", and I found your introduction to the TPB edition a fascinating "behind the scenes" look at how an original concept is developed and transformed along the arduous road to publication.  

Thank you very much for a thoroughly uplifting and satisfying tale.  Even with the necessary compromises to gain DC's approval of a "Superboy-Prime" story, I was very pleased with "Superman: Secret Identity".  And I certainly hope if Superboy-Prime ever leaves that "Paradise Dimension" that you will finally have a chance to work with this character.  I know he will be in the right hands.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: JulianPerez on September 16, 2005, 05:44:55 AM
Hmmm, my fault for taking hearsay at face value. Although when I heard the heckling story, it brought a smile to my face not just because of the funny mental image, but also because of the idea that Kurt Busiek's easygoing airs are a pose for a rarely seen inner strength and conviction.

Here's a couple questions I've wondered about, Mr. Busiek:

1) If you were given an opportunity, All-Star Style, to write Superman, what sort of Superman story would you tell?

2) And since you're a big Englehart fan, by all accounts, what sort of Superman stories would you speculate that Stainless Steve would have told, or what insights into the character and his world would he have had?

I suspect Englehart would have really, really reached back and brought out some Golden Age concepts, like for example, he would possibly answer a question no one has answered, like why Earth-2 Superman could only jump at first but switched to flying, or provide a sequel to a story or plot thread that everyone else has forgotten (remember the escaped Earth-Eating Mole loose end I brought up from the Brainiac story? Steve did whole stories about little things like that). Remember, Stainless Steve was the guy that brought out in DETECTIVE COMICS Hugo Strange, Deadshot (who only appeared once before), and had references to Julie Madison. Would he possibly have created an Earth-1 version of the Ultra-Humanite, still an evil paraplegic? Steve - who is never afraid of a new status quo (he married the Vision and Scarlet Witch, and didn't come up with cockeyed ways to get Johnny and Alicia back together like a lesser writer would have) and has an admiration for strong women (Wanda, Silver St. Cloud) would probably have totally redefined the Lois/Superman dynamic in a very shocking yet satisfying way, like marrying them off, or having Lois learn Superman's secret identity, or even falling "out of love" with him.

Steve also would have brought out a Superman villain known for only a few appearances, ask what happened to them, and brought them back in a phenomenally effective way, a villain such as (for instance) someone like Diana Savage or the Galactic Golem.

Steve also would probably define and cement certain relationships that were fairly nebulous; what is the nature of the bond between Superman and his cousin, Supergirl? He probably would have had some interesting insights about the fatherly Superman/Jimmy Olsen friendship.

One thing's for sure, though: if Steve had written Superman, we'd still be talking about it now.  :wink:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 16, 2005, 09:29:07 AM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Hmmm, my fault for taking hearsay at face value. Although when I heard the heckling story, it brought a smile to my face not just because of the funny mental image, but also because of the idea that Kurt Busiek's easygoing airs are a pose for a rarely seen inner strength and conviction.

Golly, Julian!  I wouldn't confuse being a jerk to someone on a con panel or stage for "rarely seen inner strength and conviction".  If you don't like what a person is saying, speak your peace and|or leave.  No need to spoil it for who else is there who may want to hear what the headline guy may have to say.  

And besides, Kurt contributed to making the demise of the probable alien race in question (the D'Bari) a more-meaningless death.  As everyone knows, a paradise dimension is where characters that died a good death or rode a good ride into the sunset will stay dead forever, unmolested by editors and writers and fanboys who want to resurrect Jean Grey as an intellectual exercise so their names can be misspelled in the credits.  :)

A couple questions for Kurt if he feels like it:

- Did Louise Simonson consult you before using Kaleb in the modern-day Post-Crisis?  The issue of what happened to Kaleb and Hydros is a dangling plot element, AFAICT.  

- Why would Superman be generally unworthy to lift Mjolnir?  Is this a function of some particular Post-Crisis characterization.  Would, say, Pre-Crisis or Kingdom Come Superman have such a constraint?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 16, 2005, 12:27:00 PM
Quote from: "dto"
Thank you very much for a thoroughly uplifting and satisfying tale.  Even with the necessary compromises to gain DC's approval of a "Superboy-Prime" story, I was very pleased with "Superman: Secret Identity".  And I certainly hope if Superboy-Prime ever leaves that "Paradise Dimension" that you will finally have a chance to work with this character.  I know he will be in the right hands.


Thanks.  I didn't view the changes as compromises, though -- just a different way to approach the concept, and one that I found richer, in the long run, than a series of straight adventures, fun though it would have been to write those.

And Superboy-Prime really doesn't make much sense (at least, to me) without Earth-Prime as a setting.  Without that context, he's another Superboy variant, but not distinctive in the way I liked, because what you've saved is the name, powers and appearance, but not the setting of a "normal" world.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 16, 2005, 12:37:03 PM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Hmmm, my fault for taking hearsay at face value. Although when I heard the heckling story, it brought a smile to my face not just because of the funny mental image, but also because of the idea that Kurt Busiek's easygoing airs are a pose for a rarely seen inner strength and conviction.


Like the next guy on the list, I don't really think heckling someone at a con is really a display of inner strength and conviction.  It's quite possible to disagree with someone without going out of your way to disrupt an event people paid money to attend.

Quote
Here's a couple questions I've wondered about, Mr. Busiek:
1) If you were given an opportunity, All-Star Style, to write Superman, what sort of Superman story would you tell?


I've thought about that on occasion and come up with what I think is some good stuff, but I'd rather not outline unwritten stories in public, on the grounds that hey, I might get to use them someday.

I will say that, since I'm a big Schwartz/Bates Superman fan, it was something of a surprise to come up with an idea for what I think could be a very stirring and memorable story -- and then realize it was far, far more Weisinger-esque than Schwartzian...

Quote
2) And since you're a big Englehart fan, by all accounts, what sort of Superman stories would you speculate that Stainless Steve would have told, or what insights into the character and his world would he have had?


I don't know.  One of the things I like about Englehart was that he's not predictable -- and beyond that, I spend so much time creating stories that I don't really have the spare energy to create stories I imagine someone else would write.

But I've always been struck by that moment in Steve's JLA where Superman stands at the satellite window and watches the Earth spin by below (incorrect though it was, if I'm remembering it accurately, since the satelite was in geosynchronous orbit).  That sense of Superman as distanced from his adoptive home, full of love for it but not fully immersed in it, still able to step back and see it from outside, is a very nice touch, and one that was influential on SECRET IDENTITY.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 16, 2005, 12:51:00 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
A couple questions for Kurt if he feels like it:
- Did Louise Simonson consult you before using Kaleb in the modern-day Post-Crisis?


Was that Louise?  I had it in my head, somehow, that it was Michelinie.  And I don't think I read those apparances.

In any case, Paul Ryan, Kaleb's co-creator, checked in with me first about using Kaleb -- he wanted us to do a Kaleb mini, but I had no time and DC wasn't that interested, so he asked if it would be okay if Kaleb was brought into the book he was doing at the time.

I was fine with it -- but we didn't really talk about what Kaleb would do, just whether it was okay to use him.

Quote
Why would Superman be generally unworthy to lift Mjolnir?  Is this a function of some particular Post-Crisis characterization.  Would, say, Pre-Crisis or Kingdom Come Superman have such a constraint?


I don't think we ever said either way whether he'd be generally worthy or generally unworthy -- just that he was worthy once, and not worthy shortly thereafter -- and admittedly, picking up the hammer to return it to Thor isn't an inherently worthy purpose, not when there's no danger and he's standing right there.

The reason we did that bit was because neither Tom Brevoort nor I liked the long, long list of people who'd lifted the hammer over the years, so we wanted to introduce the idea that "worthiness" is not steady-state, it varies according to circumstances and purpose, as well as the character's worth, by whatever Asgardian standards the hammer's spell recognizes as worth.  Just because someone picked it up once -- or twice, or a dozen times -- does not mean they'll always be able to do it.

As for what exact parameters factor into things, I don't think it should ever be fully spelled out -- the hammer is godly and mythic, and there should be an air of mystery about it to some degree.  It's not a science-fiction weapon whose workings are mathematically transparent to human minds, so you could say, "Well, so-and-so saved a busload of children in 1968, so therefore he can lift it."

The only way to know is to try it and see.  And then the only way to know if you can do it again is to try it and see again.  That would go for everyone, not just Superman (including pre-Crisis Supes, Earth-2 Supes, Kingdom Come Supes, Twinkie-ad Supes or any other).  I think the only guy who the reader should expect can always lift Mjolnir is Thor, and I'm not opposed to surprising them there, either.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 16, 2005, 04:34:12 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
- Did Louise Simonson consult you before using Kaleb in the modern-day Post-Crisis?

Was that Louise?  I had it in my head, somehow, that it was Michelinie.  And I don't think I read those apparances.

There were just a couple appearances I'm aware of:

- Superman: Man Of Tomorrow #11 (L. Simonson) where most of the action happened.  
http://www.supermanhomepage.com/other/kryptonian-cybernet/kc54.txt

then the Elseworlds One Million epic happens, and then:

- Action Comics #751 (S. Immonen), in which there's a brief reference to Mot #11
http://www.supermanhomepage.com/other/kryptonian-cybernet/kc58.txt

The executive summary is that Kaleb's unconcious body in now in Luthor's basement to test synthetic K, and the plot dangles from there.  

Quote
In any case, Paul Ryan, Kaleb's co-creator, checked in with me first about using Kaleb -- he wanted us to do a Kaleb mini, but I had no time and DC wasn't that interested, so he asked if it would be okay if Kaleb was brought into the book he was doing at the time.

I was fine with it -- but we didn't really talk about what Kaleb would do, just whether it was okay to use him.

Cool.  Recently, I was reading some chatter on some board somewhere (narrows it down a lot :) ) hypothesizing that Power Girl and|or the latest Supergirl incarnation are from Kaleb's world of Hydros, which is why it's fresh in mind.  I got the sense that the One Million thing flooded the books with new characters and whatever Kaleb arc was planned went into la-la land, but that's just speculation.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 16, 2005, 04:51:58 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote
Why would Superman be generally unworthy to lift Mjolnir?  Is this a function of some particular Post-Crisis characterization.  Would, say, Pre-Crisis or Kingdom Come Superman have such a constraint?


I don't think we ever said either way whether he'd be generally worthy or generally unworthy -- just that he was worthy once, and not worthy shortly thereafter -- and admittedly, picking up the hammer to return it to Thor isn't an inherently worthy purpose, not when there's no danger and he's standing right there.

The reason we did that bit was because neither Tom Brevoort nor I liked the long, long list of people who'd lifted the hammer over the years, so we wanted to introduce the idea that "worthiness" is not steady-state, it varies according to circumstances and purpose, as well as the character's worth, by whatever Asgardian standards the hammer's spell recognizes as worth.  Just because someone picked it up once -- or twice, or a dozen times -- does not mean they'll always be able to do it.

Makes sense, I s'pose.  It started a bunch of fanboys going through the long. long list and wondering "What do Red Norvell and Wonder Woman have that Superman doesn't have?", though.  There were thoughts that maybe it was a character flaw, some sporadic allergy to magic, or some backdoor DC/Marvel deal of "if Supes beats Thor, he won't be able to lift Mjolnir".


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 16, 2005, 05:02:48 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
It started a bunch of fanboys going through the long. long list and wondering "What do Red Norvell and Wonder Woman have that Superman doesn't have?", though.  There were thoughts that maybe it was a character flaw, some sporadic allergy to magic, or some backdoor DC/Marvel deal of "if Supes beats Thor, he won't be able to lift Mjolnir".


Nah.  They just missed the obvious leap -- if Superman could lift it once but not the second time he tried, who says Wonder Woman could lift it consistently?  Or Red -- who, as I recall, used Thor's belt of strength and gloves of something-or-other, which Roy drew from Norse myth, but hadn't really been a part of the Marvel book before.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: JulianPerez on September 17, 2005, 02:14:39 AM
Man, this is a kick and a half. I say some nice stuff about Kurt Busiek on a newsgroup somewhere, and Mr. Silver Age himself pops in to help me keep my facts straight. What a dude!

A few more questions:

You've written both Captain America and Superman in your career. Both of them are have personalities that are incorruptible, decent, and full of strong convictions, which is why they overreacted to each other in JLA/AVENGERS. What would you say is the difference between Cap and Superman?

In ARROWSMITH, you did a story that was in the style of pulpish, early 20th Century science fiction adventure. Superman is a character with strong "futurism" aspects to him, a product of that very "1939 World's Fair" mentality; note that while things about Superman may come and go, the art deco Metropolis stays. In a TIME magazine piece on Superman someone once said that "Superman was a product of a time when we liked our heroes the way we liked our steak: beefy and All-American." Do you agree with this view? What about Superman do you see as "period," of Superman being a product of that time you have shown great understanding for writing? For that matter, does Superman "work" ONLY as period, and if not, what about him can be updated for later times? And finally, why is it Superman is still around when so many other characters created roughly the same time have fallen off the pop culture radar?

And finally...as you live in the Pacific Northwest, have you ever met or seen the Sasquatch?  :lol:  I dig his style!


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 17, 2005, 10:05:18 AM
Other questions for Kurt if he has time and inclination (and it doesn't detract from doing Astro City or enjoying other threads on this board, 'natch :) ):  

- You've said in interviews that you'd like to have a crack on Kirby's Kamandi.  Have you had any specific ideas on incorporating the legend of Superman into Kamandi?  The Post-Crisis Superman doesn't have that indestructible costume for the apes to worship, FWIW.  

- Are you interested in doing a Super-title?  Your past takes at comics with "Superman" in the title have been fine reads, but elseworldy tangents.  If you don't want to save Superman, could you perhaps put in a good word with someone who does?  Scott McCloud could be a fine savior for Supes, if he could learn to come up with better names for villains than "Fido".  :)

- Any particular thoughts on who the woman in Superman's life should be?  You've had Superman-esque sorts hook up with Lois C., Lang, and Winged Wonder Woman, but those weren't exactly mainstream Superman.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 17, 2005, 12:28:51 PM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
A few more questions:
You've written both Captain America and Superman in your career. Both of them are have personalities that are incorruptible, decent, and full of strong convictions, which is why they overreacted to each other in JLA/AVENGERS. What would you say is the difference between Cap and Superman?


Politics and setting, to start with.  I think Roger Stern made a compelling argument when he chose to play Cap as an FDR-era New Dealer from the Lower East Side, translated via freezi-pop to the present.  The more time passes, the longer Cap's freezi-sleep becomes; he's not removed from his context.

Superman, however, is an outsider raised as a farmboy in the heartland (whether that heartland is rural NY or Kansas), whose origin floats and thus gets any too-specific bits, whether they be Great Depression of Sputnik or whatever, sanded off by revision as time goes on.  Superman's ideals aren't as tied to America -- they're the underlying ur-ideals of decency and kindness and courage that you're left with when you sand the specifics off the American Dream, Christianity and other human strivings he grew up among.

Quote
In ARROWSMITH, you did a story that was in the style of pulpish, early 20th Century science fiction adventure. Superman is a character with strong "futurism" aspects to him, a product of that very "1939 World's Fair" mentality; note that while things about Superman may come and go, the art deco Metropolis stays.


Actually, the art-deco Metropolis comes and goes, too.  And ARROWSMITH has nothing to do with a 1939 World's Fair mentality -- his setting, mythology, influences and themes are a generation previous.

Quote
In a TIME magazine piece on Superman someone once said that "Superman was a product of a time when we liked our heroes the way we liked our steak: beefy and All-American." Do you agree with this view?


It fits some eras of Superman, at least.

Quote
What about Superman do you see as "period," of Superman being a product of that time you have shown great understanding for writing?


I don't think I've written much Thirties-derived stuff, actually.  And I can't say I've ever really thought about which bits of Superman remain period -- I tend to think more about the universal.  I suppose the idea of the farmboy hero is one that faded from the Foorties on, but it was certainly present before the Thirties.

Quote
For that matter, does Superman "work" ONLY as period, and if not, what about him can be updated for later times?


Almost everything about him can be updated, I tend to think, and frequently has been.  There are still people growing up in rural America, still questions of morals, of ethics versus pragmatism, and more.  The Moses legend worked before the Thirties, and works still.

Quote
And finally, why is it Superman is still around when so many other characters created roughly the same time have fallen off the pop culture radar?


Two main reasons, I think:

1. He's a really good character, basic and bold, who is rooted in enough universal ideas that he could both become popular in the era he arose and could survive the many changes of surface detail and context he's been through since.

2. He's the flagship character of a publishing company who has had a strong interest in seeing that he survives, unlike, say, the Shadow or Doc Savage, whose owners do not view them as quite so crucial to their continued success.

Quote
And finally...as you live in the Pacific Northwest, have you ever met or seen the Sasquatch?  :lol:  I dig his style!


He pops in at the local conventions, but he's largely a Warren Ellis fan -- he likes stories about the corrupting effect of civilization.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 17, 2005, 12:44:58 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Other questions for Kurt if he has time and inclination (and it doesn't detract from doing Astro City or enjoying other threads on this board, 'natch :) ):  
- You've said in interviews that you'd like to have a crack on Kirby's Kamandi.  Have you had any specific ideas on incorporating the legend of Superman into Kamandi?  The Post-Crisis Superman doesn't have that indestructible costume for the apes to worship, FWIW.


Were I writing KAMANDI, I think I would leave Superman out of it.  "Mighty One!" was a great story that really works on its own, and doesn't need to be revisited or expanded on.  Rather than tie Kamandi to the ever-shifting DC present, which runs the risks of causing ongoing foundation shifts that require explanation and continuity-spackling that hurt the series (see: Legion), I'd just as soon treat Kamandi as its own concept, with no overt connections to other continuity.  There's a Superman in his world's past, but there's no need to address the question of which one, or even to bring him up.  The World That's Coming is the progenitor of the Great Disaster, but if it'd be messy to look at, don't worry about it -- Earth After Disaster has plenty to explore without needing to do team-ups.

Quote
Are you interested in doing a Super-title?  Your past takes at comics with "Superman" in the title have been fine reads, but elseworldy tangents.


The idea of me doing a Superman title has come up a few times in recent years -- each time, I've wound up coming up with a different set of ideas I like, and it strikes me that all those ideas could be braided together into a big, compelling tapestry that would be fun to explore.

So yeah, I'd be interested, if I had the room in my schedule and could do it the way I wanted.

Quote
If you don't want to save Superman, could you perhaps put in a good word with someone who does?


They're really not going to consult me on who they get to do the books -- unless, of course, they want me to do it.

Quote
Scott McCloud could be a fine savior for Supes, if he could learn to come up with better names for villains than "Fido".  :)


Scott's busy on other stuff, but I'e enjoyed his Super-stories quite a bit.

Quote
Any particular thoughts on who the woman in Superman's life should be?


Lois.

That doesn't preclude stories involving other women, be they Lana, Lori, Lyla Lerroll or someone else, but Lois is The Woman for him.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 17, 2005, 04:20:57 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Were I writing KAMANDI, I think I would leave Superman out of it.  "Mighty One!" was a great story that really works on its own, and doesn't need to be revisited or expanded on.

Yeah, I loved that story too.  The Superman tie-in for that story was what first introduced me to Kamandi.

Quote
Rather than tie Kamandi to the ever-shifting DC present, which runs the risks of causing ongoing foundation shifts that require explanation and continuity-spackling that hurt the series (see: Legion), I'd just as soon treat Kamandi as its own concept, with no overt connections to other continuity.  There's a Superman in his world's past, but there's no need to address the question of which one, or even to bring him up.  The World That's Coming is the progenitor of the Great Disaster, but if it'd be messy to look at, don't worry about it -- Earth After Disaster has plenty to explore without needing to do team-ups.

I certainly wasn't thinking team-ups (unless DC has the rights to Thundarr, perhaps) or any strong continuity ties to modern DC or anything like that.  I just liked the idea of reverence for Superman distorted through the ages, and maybe an amusing artifact or two strewn throughout.  
\


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: MatterEaterLad on September 17, 2005, 09:57:43 PM
Thanks for posting, Kurt...

Sorry, I'm more of the mind that no one can save Superman, because he's locked up in my memory at my point in time when it meant something to me...

I guess I was only a fan boy for a few years... :lol:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: ShinDangaioh on September 17, 2005, 10:58:32 PM
The person who could and did save Superman was a guy by the name of Dini.  Warner just needed to give him more time to work with the Superman Animated Series.  

Superman only got a fraction of the seasons that Batman and Justice League did.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: MatterEaterLad on September 17, 2005, 11:12:01 PM
Interesting idea, intriguing....


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 18, 2005, 09:28:45 AM
Quote from: "ShinDangaioh"
The person who could and did save Superman was a guy by the name of Dini.  Warner just needed to give him more time to work with the Superman Animated Series.  

Superman only got a fraction of the seasons that Batman and Justice League did.

Keep in mind that Dini is primarily a writer for animation, and his comic book experience is mostly one-offs.  That's not to say he couldn't save Superman the series (when he wasn't Lost or marrying Zatanna).  But my sense is that whoever could save Superman should have some previous experience doing a series beforehand, dealing with a continuum they're not totally controlling.  I remember Kevin Smith's Daredevil run, where he was clearly learning the ropes of what it means to do a series.  All the fanboys were "go Kevin Smith" at the beginning, then got more critical as issues slowly came out.  

And besides, we need someone to save Batman, especially after Frank Miller's recent pile.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: ShinDangaioh on September 18, 2005, 11:40:38 AM
In other words, we need someone who is used to writing in a shared world.  Such as the writers of the Star Wars Expanded Universe.  Maybe Timothy Zahn?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 18, 2005, 12:51:19 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Keep in mind that Dini is primarily a writer for animation, and his comic book experience is mostly one-offs.  That's not to say he couldn't save Superman the series (when he wasn't Lost or marrying Zatanna).  But my sense is that whoever could save Superman should have some previous experience doing a series beforehand, dealing with a continuum they're not totally controlling.


The rules of doing a series in a continuum you aren't really controlling aren't all that different if the continuum is LOST or BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES, though.  Paul's been working in continua he doesn't control at least as far back as THE GODZILLA POWER HOUR.

I think Paul, as a talented comics writer, a talented writer in other areas (animation, live-action, prose) and as someone who's been a producer in charge of ongoing series development and a writer working in series constraints, would do an excellent job at a comics series.

Were I to pick my fantasy Superman-writing team, Paul would be on it, as would Alan Brennert and Paul Levitz.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 18, 2005, 03:17:56 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
The rules of doing a series in a continuum you aren't really controlling aren't all that different if the continuum is LOST or BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES, though.  Paul's been working in continua he doesn't control at least as far back as THE GODZILLA POWER HOUR.

I was too loose in my wording, in 20/20 hindsight.  

I think there's a number of people who can write great Superman stories or a single arc.    

There's a smaller subset of people who could write a steady stream of great Superman stories that are interconnected with and build upon each other.  Most TV series are like that.  You don't have to go through a ton of THE GODZILLLA POWER HOUR cartoons to know the current state of the show, characters, etc.  It's not like Star Trek or Dr. Who in scope, where you've had many hands stirring the pot (and sometimes, multiple pots) over the decades.  

Then there's a smaller subset of that who can keep Superman tied with the rest of the DC Universe, which is where a lot of the criticisms about Byrne and Post-Crisis Superman emerge, and the "saving of Superman" from that has sometimes been worse than the problems.  Superman and its sprawling cast is everywhere, and the actions/inactions in one issue can sweep throughout everything.  There's an entire universe that's mostly not written by any one group, organically growing all around.  There's lots of good stories to be had as a consequence of the universe, but there's also lots of good stories that are wrecked by what has happened before and currently within said universe.    

And then of course, you have to want to do it.  :)  

In short, my sense is that saviors are hard to come by, 'cause it's hard.

Quote
I think Paul, as a talented comics writer, a talented writer in other areas (animation, live-action, prose) and as someone who's been a producer in charge of ongoing series development and a writer working in series constraints, would do an excellent job at a comics series.

I think he could too, but I wouldn't want a behemoth like Superman (or Batman or Spider-Man) to be the first thing for anyone to tackle who's never done a series.  That's why I'd mentioned Kevin Smith's Daredevil run.  

Quote
Were I to pick my fantasy Superman-writing team, Paul would be on it, as would Alan Brennert and Paul Levitz.

Alan Brennert -- ooooh!  That has possibilities...  haven't thought about that name in comics in awhile.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: DoctorZero on September 18, 2005, 05:15:39 PM
Thank you Mr. Busiek for posting here.
I think that the problem with the current Superman stories are that they just aren't about Superman anymore.  Or, at least not the Superman everyone has come to know and love.
They've gone too astray from what Superman is supposed to be about.  They need to get back on track with the character.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: dto on September 19, 2005, 02:04:00 AM
Thank you for your prompt response, Mr. Busiek.  Concerning Superboy-Prime, I agree with your assessment that young Clark would be FAR more interesting had he remained on Earth-Prime and continued his Superboy career in secret.  Unfortunately, Superboy-Prime's cover was blown in DC Comics Presents #87, as there were too many witnesses who saw him and Superman at the Clark residence -- friends, neighbors, policemen and Laurie Lemmon (and you NEVER reveal your superhero persona to your girlfriend until right before the marriage proposal!)   :wink:  

And if Earth-Prime and young Clark survived the Crisis, EVERYONE would know by the time Superboy-Prime returned!  Forget about "super-amnesia gas" -- it's too late now, and recent story arcs have proven that such mind-wipes aren't 100% effective over the long haul...   :(

So with a public identity, poor Clark's parents would be under constant threat; he himself would be hounded by the media, the government and foreign intelligence agencies; Laurie Lemmon would be approached for a "tell-all" tabloid story; Earth-Prime's DC Comics legal department would be suing for trademark infringement while at the same time advertising and publicity want to hire him as a spokesman; the Salkinds want him for "The Adventures of Superboy" TV show ("He can do his own stunts and special effects!"), which means poor Gerald Christopher never gets his big break...   :wink:

And inserting Superboy-Prime into the present DC Universe would be cause for alarm.  It's possible that Superboy-Prime is about as strong as the Silver Age or Pocket Universe Superboys, and he's apparently immune to the effects of red solar radiation!  (See http://superman.nu/tales2/comet/?page=21 )  Superboy-Prime might be unfazed by Post-Crisis Kryptonite (though the multi-colored Kryptonite introduced in Superman/Batman #6 might be another matter).  

Worse for the paranoid Batman, Superboy-Prime would know most of the secret identities in the DC Universe from his comic books!  Sure, a lot of these stories (never happened) in this continuity, but he still has a gold mine (or SILVER/BRONZE mine?) of information.   :wink:

But even with these possibilities, I heartilly concur that "Superman: Secret Identity" was FAR superior to what you might have derived from the original Superboy-Prime.  Thank you again, Mr. Busiek.


P.S.  If you don't mind my asking, I've always been puzzled by Justice League of America #240 (July 1985).  What was the deal with Dr. Anomaly?  I felt it odd that this plot line was never followed up, though the Crisis obviously threw things in a turmoil and retconned some JLA adventures.  But it seemed a waste after going through all the effort introducing a new character, only to have him immediately disappear after only one issue, never to be seen again.

Hmm... Dr. Anomaly thought that superheroes were a danger to society, and he travelled to the future to stop them.  And the last time we saw him was right during the Crisis...

Uh, oh...  :shock:

Boy, if Dr. Anomaly resurfaces in the upcoming Crisis, that WOULD be a shocker!   :)   (And I'm sure you planned this all the time, right?)   :wink:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 19, 2005, 12:28:06 PM
Quote from: "dto"
Thank you for your prompt response, Mr. Busiek.  Concerning Superboy-Prime, I agree with your assessment that young Clark would be FAR more interesting had he remained on Earth-Prime and continued his Superboy career in secret.  Unfortunately, Superboy-Prime's cover was blown in DC Comics Presents #87, as there were too many witnesses who saw him and Superman at the Clark residence -- friends, neighbors, policemen and Laurie Lemmon (and you NEVER reveal your superhero persona to your girlfriend until right before the marriage proposal!)   :wink:  


Yep.  As shown in S:SI, my interest is in the character in the context he was in for the set-up, not so much in where they went with it.

Quote
If you don't mind my asking, I've always been puzzled by Justice League of America #240 (July 1985).  What was the deal with Dr. Anomaly?  I felt it odd that this plot line was never followed up, though the Crisis obviously threw things in a turmoil and retconned some JLA adventures.  But it seemed a waste after going through all the effort introducing a new character, only to have him immediately disappear after only one issue, never to be seen again.


There was, in fact, a sequel done, featuring the 1968 League travelling to the present to stop Dr. A, who had vibrationally-displaced all the heroes of that era.  It was drawn by Bill Willingham, and never lettered, because Bill didn't leave any darn space for the word balloons.  I offered to rework the script and try to fit it, but the new editor chose to scrap it, due to post-Crisis continuity.

Quote
Boy, if Dr. Anomaly resurfaces in the upcoming Crisis, that WOULD be a shocker!   :)


Not just to you!

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: dto on September 20, 2005, 01:08:39 AM
Thank you again for your response, Mr. Busiek.  I always thought Justice League of America #240 was the beginning of at least a two-issue adventure, and I've long suspected that Post-Crisis continuity concerns scuttled the intended sequel.  It would have been hard explaning the 1968 League when the post-Crisis Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman weren't founding members anymore, and "1968" would have to be advanced forward under the "sliding timeline".

I was surprised to learn that artwork/dialogue problems played a part in cancelling Part II, though.  It's very interesting to read the "behind the scenes" story behind the comic pages -- I'm sure there were many other stories "in the pipeline" that were also Crisis victims, but most readers never hear about "what could have been".

Hmm... I'm still wondering if Dr. Anomaly might make a "token' appearance soon, just to preserve DC Comic's trademark protections.  A lot of "forgotten" characters have recently shown up, and I'm positive their presence was dictated by DC's legal department to prove they were still "in use" and not abandoned to the public domain.

Thank you once again, Mr. Busiek.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 20, 2005, 06:11:18 AM
Kurt, thanks again!  Again, at your convenience...  

- How "immortal" is Superman in your mind?  Do you see him ever dying of "natural causes" (to the extent natural causes ever exists for a DCU hero)?  How aware is he of his immortality... does he know he will/won't age like a mortal?  Superman writers have had vasty different takes on this, and it'd seem to go a long way toward how he behaves, even in the here and now where he doesn't have grey hair.  I know how I'd want to attach to and care for the mortals in my life, how badly I wanted to learn that neat hobby I never have time for, etc., would change if I knew that, barring injury, I really would live until the end of time.  No one knows just how long they have, but even just having a broad idea changes things.

- Lex Luthor is first and foremost a:

  a) scientist
  b) businessman
  c) politician
  d) hair-club-for-men reject
  e) {fill in the blank}

My sense is that most of the folks here (including me) like Maggin's take on Luthor as a scientist with amusing disposable identities.  Luthor as the Kingpin or President never did it for me in a long-term sens.  Heck, if Luthor were a politician, he'd be Karl Rove, not some trifling figurehead. I admit that Luthor the businessman during the first season of Lois and Clark was great stuff.  

- Who's your favorite under-exposed Superman nemesis that you feel you can talk about?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 20, 2005, 10:16:07 AM
BTW, happy belated birthday.  Kurt turned 29 years old for the <mumble mumbleth> time on the 16th, as I discovered on the Astro City boards while looking for the release date for the Local Heroes TPB.  (I buy all the Astro City TPBs and try to not spoil things by reading about them in advance, so I rarely visit that board despite being a huge fan.  :) )


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 20, 2005, 12:52:43 PM
Quote from: "dto"
I'm still wondering if Dr. Anomaly might make a "token' appearance soon, just to preserve DC Comic's trademark protections.


I don't think DC cares about Dr. A -- I doubt they'd go to any effort to maintain trademark on the name.

Quote
A lot of "forgotten" characters have recently shown up, and I'm positive their presence was dictated by DC's legal department to prove they were still "in use" and not abandoned to the public domain.


I wouldn't be so sure.  That sort of thing happens only rarely -- for instance, in 23 years of professional writing, I've never been asked to write a character into anything for trademark reasons.

You may simply be assuming DC is asking for this, when actually it's just that there are writers up there of late who likey the obscure guys...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 20, 2005, 12:58:43 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
How "immortal" is Superman in your mind?  Do you see him ever dying of "natural causes" (to the extent natural causes ever exists for a DCU hero)?  How aware is he of his immortality... does he know he will/won't age like a mortal?  Superman writers have had vasty different takes on this, and it'd seem to go a long way toward how he behaves, even in the here and now where he doesn't have grey hair.


I expect this varies from writer to writer, as you note, so I can't answer the question with any finality.  The Superman I like, though, got old and had children (in "future" stories), and I like that, so were it up to me, I'd keep it.

Quote
Lex Luthor is first and foremost a:
  a) scientist
  b) businessman
  c) politician
  d) hair-club-for-men reject
  e) {fill in the blank}


e) fink!

I grew up with scientist Lex, but like businessman Lex as well.  My main concern with Lex is that he should be a compelling adversary for Superman, and his enmity for Superman should be emotionally-based -- his intellect is in service of rage, whether it's over Superboy balding him unexpectedly, or taking the love of "his" city away.

Quote
- Who's your favorite under-exposed Superman nemesis that you feel you can talk about?


That I can talk about?

For real obscurities, I gotta say, I like Microwave Man...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on September 20, 2005, 01:28:12 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"

I wouldn't be so sure.  That sort of thing happens only rarely -- for instance, in 23 years of professional writing, I've never been asked to write a character into anything for trademark reasons.

kdb


The only case of this that I know of, is of Marvel Comics releasing a new Captain Marvel mini every few years to keep the trademark so that DC can't use it for the titles of Captain Marvel, thus forcing them to use "Shazam!" instead.  

Other than that, I can't think of another case of this happening. Obscure guys are obscure for a reason ;)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Gary on September 20, 2005, 03:52:07 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"

The only case of this that I know of, is of Marvel Comics releasing a new Captain Marvel mini every few years to keep the trademark so that DC can't use it for the titles of Captain Marvel, thus forcing them to use "Shazam!" instead.  

Other than that, I can't think of another case of this happening. Obscure guys are obscure for a reason ;)


If I remember right, Marvel put Claremont's Starlord into a Forbush-man vignette in order to preserve the former's copyright. At least that's what the strip claimed. Might've been a joke, of course, but I don't think they'd have come up with a joke about it if it didn't get done for real sometimes.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 20, 2005, 04:56:53 PM
Quote from: "Gary"
Quote from: "Super Monkey"

The only case of this that I know of, is of Marvel Comics releasing a new Captain Marvel mini every few years to keep the trademark so that DC can't use it for the titles of Captain Marvel, thus forcing them to use "Shazam!" instead.  

Other than that, I can't think of another case of this happening. Obscure guys are obscure for a reason ;)


If I remember right, Marvel put Claremont's Starlord into a Forbush-man vignette in order to preserve the former's copyright. At least that's what the strip claimed. Might've been a joke, of course, but I don't think they'd have come up with a joke about it if it didn't get done for real sometimes.


It happened on occasion in books like MARVEL TEAM-UP, particularly with characters whose names were cool enough to be at risk.  Dr. Anomaly doesn't have to worry about that.

But like I said, it doesn't happen often.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 20, 2005, 07:13:22 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
I expect this varies from writer to writer, as you note, so I can't answer the question with any finality.  The Superman I like, though, got old and had children (in "future" stories), and I like that, so were it up to me, I'd keep it.

I agree.  I liked Earth-2 Kal-L aging at roughly the pace of Lois, AFAICT.  Lately, it seems that the longer-lived the future Superman is relative to Lois, the more screwed up he becomes.  Kingdom Come Superman goes off to Antarctica for a decade and lets the world remake itself as a bad Image comic.  DC One Million Superman holds a torch for Lois for 800+ centuries -- heck, he ultimately _becomes_ a torch inside Super-Sun.  When he's done, he comes out looking like one of the Metal Men, desperately seeing some limited-edition Platinum Lois doll so he can play make-believe on Krypton.  

Oh, no one expects "finality" when it comes to the issue of how long our superheroes will live.  :)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on September 21, 2005, 03:46:28 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
I don't think we ever said either way whether he'd be generally worthy or generally unworthy -- just that he was worthy once, and not worthy shortly thereafter -- and admittedly, picking up the hammer to return it to Thor isn't an inherently worthy purpose, not when there's no danger and he's standing right there.

The reason we did that bit was because neither Tom Brevoort nor I liked the long, long list of people who'd lifted the hammer over the years, so we wanted to introduce the idea that "worthiness" is not steady-state, it varies according to circumstances and purpose, as well as the character's worth, by whatever Asgardian standards the hammer's spell recognizes as worth.  Just because someone picked it up once -- or twice, or a dozen times -- does not mean they'll always be able to do it.

As for what exact parameters factor into things, I don't think it should ever be fully spelled out -- the hammer is godly and mythic, and there should be an air of mystery about it to some degree.  It's not a science-fiction weapon whose workings are mathematically transparent to human minds, so you could say, "Well, so-and-so saved a busload of children in 1968, so therefore he can lift it."

The only way to know is to try it and see.  And then the only way to know if you can do it again is to try it and see again.  That would go for everyone, not just Superman (including pre-Crisis Supes, Earth-2 Supes, Kingdom Come Supes, Twinkie-ad Supes or any other).  I think the only guy who the reader should expect can always lift Mjolnir is Thor, and I'm not opposed to surprising them there, either.

kdb


Thank-you very much for that response, Mr. Busiek.  That's exactly as I interpreted your JLA/Avengers books on this matter.  I'm very pleased that your author intent jibes with that.

My druthers has always been to leave Thor the sole wielder of Mjolnir.  While Simonson had an admittedly cool idea to explore the idea of another being worthy, he didn't see the unfortunate future consequences of opening that ugly door.  While I detest Beta Ray Bill myself, I do see the one-shot value of the jarring revelation that one other was worthy.  But that left the concept open to all kinds of inferior writers who wanted their own 'lifters' so we see the concept became watered-down to near-meaninglessness.  Thankfully, not only did you show us that Superman could be worthy, but that the army of wielders no longer were 100% worthy all the time anymore.

Also, the concept of worthiness as you put it is very much in keeping with religious themes, which is what Thor was based on after all.  Why does God cause the sun to shine and the rain to fall on the good and bad alike?  The ways of gods are mysterious and I believe that's what you were trying to say to us here regarding the mystery of who's worthy under what circumstances.  One must accept and believe that a higher power knows what's best, in this case with Mjolnir.

Oh, and not to digress too much, while I'm mildly entertained by your one-time former friend, Darren Madigan, he misses the point of communication.  Communication is about saying the most with the least.  Mr. Madigan suffers from verbal diarrhea and seems not to realize that few besides himself enjoys his tirelessly expending dozens of pages exploring every possible witticism on a topic before he gets to the infernal point.  You get this which is one reason why I suspect you're a working comics professional and he's a jealous wannabe.

Less is more. :D


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 21, 2005, 06:00:17 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
My druthers has always been to leave Thor the sole wielder of Mjolnir.  While Simonson had an admittedly cool idea to explore the idea of another being worthy, he didn't see the unfortunate future consequences of opening that ugly door.


And even if he did, that shouldn't have stopped him.  A writer shouldn't hold off from using a good idea because someone might imitate it badly in the future.

But I agree with you overall.  The problem wasn't Beta Ray Bill, it was the parade of follow-ups.  

Quote
Thankfully, not only did you show us that Superman could be worthy, but that the army of wielders no longer were 100% worthy all the time anymore.


That was the idea, at least.  If we're going to have a parade of people lifting the thing, let's at least say they were special circumstances...

Quote
Oh, and not to digress too much, while I'm mildly entertained by your one-time former friend, Darren Madigan, he misses the point of communication.  Communication is about saying the most with the least.


You'll forgive me, I hope, if I don't pass that on.  Not only do my wife and I prefer to have as little contact with him as possible, but he never listened to that sort of thing a quarter-century ago, and I don't see that much has changed.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 21, 2005, 07:28:07 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Thankfully, not only did you show us that Superman could be worthy, but that the army of wielders no longer were 100% worthy all the time anymore.

That's just it.  I wouldn't have expected the "situational worthiness" concept to be introduced in a DC/Marvel crossover because I wouldn't expect it to be Marvel canon and (theoretically) meaning a lot for any future stories.  I don't think people see Superman inconsistently lifting Mjolnir reflecting on Steve Rogers, Red Norvell, Beta Ray Bill, etc.  

Not having actually read the comic in question yet, I wasn't losing too much sleep over it, other than wondering "might Kurt have been saying something about Superman in particular", so I asked.  :)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 21, 2005, 08:01:21 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
I grew up with scientist Lex, but like businessman Lex as well.  My main concern with Lex is that he should be a compelling adversary for Superman, and his enmity for Superman should be emotionally-based -- his intellect is in service of rage, whether it's over Superboy balding him unexpectedly, or taking the love of "his" city away.

Luthor primarily an evil businessman seems too generic, perhaps because it's occurs so often in the non-superhero genres.  In the JLU cartoons, he's back to being a scientist, a development I like.  Lex wanting the adulation of Metropolis never came across to me as something he'd take personally -- seems like too low a sight and he'd want the world.  I would've liked it if Lois and Lex were dating, Lex was smitten (probably in a possesive way that he thinks of as love), and things were starting to become "serious".  Then Superman flies in and Lois waveringly loses interest.  Make Lois the focus of why they're at each others throats. That general dynamic worked for me in L&C's 1st season, made me "feel it" for Lex as a villain.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: forgottenhero on September 22, 2005, 01:03:30 AM
I am very happy to see Kurt Busiek here!

Personally -- not that anyone asked me -- I like "scientist-businessman" Luthor the best. Both SUPERMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES and BIRTHRIGHT got it right, in my opinion.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 22, 2005, 07:35:57 AM
Quote from: "forgottenhero"
Personally -- not that anyone asked me -- I like "scientist-businessman" Luthor the best. Both SUPERMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES and BIRTHRIGHT got it right, in my opinion.

I don't mind Luthor having businessman aspects.  Maggin's Luthor maintained a slew of fake IDs to conduct his business and that worked for me.  The good movies had Lex Luthor, Ruler of Australia, the real estate baron and that was a nice touch.  But when Lex is primarily a businessman and not really much a scientist, he just doesn't click with me.  I keep on waiting for the evil science gimmick he should come up with, and it never happens.  I compare to other comic tycoon villains -- Kingpin, Green Goblin -- and find tycoon Lex "bleah".  President Lex just made my heat hurt, without adding value, and they had to drag Pete Ross and Lana Lang into that mess...  ugh.

On a related note -- Kurt, if you get a chance, bring back Morgan Edge.  :)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Great Rao on September 22, 2005, 03:18:32 PM
I also like the Scientist/Business Lex.  It shows that Lex is so completely brilliant, that he can do anything - and that he does, using secret wheels within wheels.  This interpretation actually pre-dates Maggin, and goes back to the second Kirk Alyn movie serial, where Lex was the genius bald criminally mad scientist who, after he got out of jail, started up a television station business, and even hired Lois Lane as his "Man in the Street" TV reporter.  The public thought he had gone straight, but Superman eventually discovered otherwise and chased Lex off the planet in his (Luthor's) secret get-away rocket ship.

Oh, Luthor also discovered the Phantom Zone and attempted to trap Superman in it.  (You'll have to watch it to find out if he succeeded.)

Fantastic stuff, and the best Luthor portrayal I've ever seen.

:s:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: NotSuper on September 22, 2005, 03:46:46 PM
I'm glad to see you posting here, Mr. Busiek. I post over at Millarworld (as "Justin) and I've enjoyed reading your responses to questions there.

I have two questions:

1: How does one become a comic book writer? Are there certain requirements?

2: In your opinion, which writer would be the best person to write Superman right now? Who do you think understands the character best and could create great tales?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 22, 2005, 05:17:59 PM
Quote
2: In your opinion, which writer would be the best person to write Superman right now? Who do you think understands the character best and could create great tales?


Kurt answered essentially the same question a few posts up:

Quote
Were I to pick my fantasy Superman-writing team, Paul {Dini} would be on it, as would Alan Brennert and Paul Levitz.

kdb

Alan Brennert was the one that caught my eye, since I loved the stuff he did with Manny Coto on the last season of Enterprise, as well as his past work writing Batman.  He also wrote:

http://superman.nu/tales3/deadman-xmas/

which displays a healthy respect for Pre-Crisis Superman stuff that I think would be appreciated.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 22, 2005, 05:44:56 PM
Quote from: "NotSuper"
1: How does one become a comic book writer?


Basically, you write comics.  If you want to be a professional at it, you find editors or publishers willing to buy them.  It's generally a freelance gig, not a staff position.

Depending on what part of the question you're most interested in, you might do well to track down a copy of A WRITER'S GUIDE TO THE BUSINESS OF COMICS by Lurene Haines, which goes into the business side in a fair amount of detail.

Quote
Are there certain requirements?


You've got to be able to write salable stuff.  This requirement means different things to different publishers, mind you, but it's the only one that matters.

Quote
2: In your opinion, which writer would be the best person to write Superman right now? Who do you think understands the character best and could create great tales?


I don't think there's any one "best" writer for Superman -- he's one of those characters that can work well under very varied approaches, so it depends what direction you go in.

As noted, my dream team of Super-writers would include Alan Brennert, Paul Dini and Paul Levitz, but I doubt any of them are available.  My all-time favorite Super-writer is Cary Bates.

But there's a lot of people who I think do a good job, from Mark Waid to Geoff Johns to Roger Stern, Len Wein, Steve Englehart, and more.  I liked SUPERMAN FOR ALL SEASONS a lot, and have liked Chuck Dixon's few tales with the guy.  I wouldn't mind taking a shot at the guy someday myself, under the right circumstances.

I dunno.  I expect my answers would vary depending on the time of the day and the angle of the light...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: CRISISHATER on September 22, 2005, 06:19:56 PM
Kurt, I'm a great fan thanks for your work. I always viewed your Astro City #0 was a heartfelt tribute to the childhoods lost in Crisis revision of the DCU. It's been hard for me to return to DC over the years after Crisis. I generally loath what Byrne did Superman and can't stay away from these characters as they seem to be returning to oldtime mythos. Do you ever think we will ever see a Superboy who was Clark as a kid? I think if we did the Legion would be fixed. No one seems to remember it went to hell when Superboy was wiped.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 22, 2005, 06:35:00 PM
Quote from: "CRISISHATER"
Do you ever think we will ever see a Superboy who was Clark as a kid?


I think you mean that the other way around.

In any case, I have no idea.  Were it up to me, I'd try doing some Superboy stories featuring a young Clark as Superboy, designed as done-in-one albums and published in something like the classic Little Golden Book format, for distribution through bookstores.  I wouldn't worry much about continuity -- I don't think the bookstore audience cares.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 22, 2005, 06:48:40 PM
For Kurt and others:  

Does the Legion even need Superboy at this point?  

In the '60s, sure, Superboy was what made the thing work as a comic.
But I don't think it's needed today, FWIW.  

I liked the Legion all by itself, as sort of a long-running possible-future Elseworlds.  I never liked it as an entity that interacted with the modern era in great ways.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: CRISISHATER on September 22, 2005, 07:10:21 PM
There is no Legion without Superboy! The last fifteen years have proved it. Kurt, agree with you about continuity. I don't see why we can't just have good stories with characters that we love....I mean there is a Krypto cartoon that's doing well. Wouldn't Superboy be even better? Why does DC tie it's own creative hands?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 22, 2005, 08:03:31 PM
Quote from: "CRISISHATER"
There is no Legion without Superboy! The last fifteen years have proved it.

Naahh...  it wasn't really the End Of An Era until Zero Hour.  :)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 22, 2005, 08:05:37 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
For Kurt and others:  

Does the Legion even need Superboy at this point?  

In the '60s, sure, Superboy was what made the thing work as a comic.
But I don't think it's needed today, FWIW.  

I liked the Legion all by itself, as sort of a long-running possible-future Elseworlds.  I never liked it as an entity that interacted with the modern era in great ways.


The Legion doesn't need Superboy to interest me, but the book seems to lose a lot of sales oomph without him around.

I suspect that it's a matter of resonance -- with Superboy around, it's a Super-family title, albeit at some distance, and without him around it's just a series set in the far future, with almost no connection to what DC fans tend to think are the "main" stuff.

I like it fine that way, but I can see why it could be a problem.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on September 22, 2005, 08:07:00 PM
Does DC Comics even own the copyright of the Clark Kent Superboy anymore?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: NotSuper on September 22, 2005, 08:16:32 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Basically, you write comics.  If you want to be a professional at it, you find editors or publishers willing to buy them.  It's generally a freelance gig, not a staff position.

Depending on what part of the question you're most interested in, you might do well to track down a copy of A WRITER'S GUIDE TO THE BUSINESS OF COMICS by Lurene Haines, which goes into the business side in a fair amount of detail.

You've got to be able to write salable stuff.  This requirement means different things to different publishers, mind you, but it's the only one that matters.

Thanks for the information.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 24, 2005, 08:34:13 AM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Does DC Comics even own the copyright of the Clark Kent Superboy anymore?

I don't think there's such a distinction as "Clark Kent Superboy" vs. just plain "Superboy" in the context of literary copyright.  For that matter, I'm not sure if just "copyright" is adequate to sum up the rights that you may or may not be thinking of.  Qualifying this stuff gets really messy really fast.  I think the answer is that DC has the rights, and the Siegel/Shuster heirs are suing, or something along those lines.  

Kurt, does DC provide writers with any legal restrictions regarding the use of Superman or other characters?  e.g.  "Thou Shalt Not Portray Superman With A Yellow Triangle S Banner (even though it's an effective defense against old-school GL) Else The Trademark Powers That Be (under the sublime leadership of General Zod) Will Smite You And Your Heirs!"


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: CRISISHATER on September 24, 2005, 11:06:54 AM
What is obvious to me, is that the fans who spend the money for overpriced Silver age statues, figures, and books have created a market for a classic mythology to return. DC has ignored the cries of the marketplace. They need look no further than Supreme for proof. DC is not Marvel, and I'm tired of their heroes being portrayed with some sort of Peter Parkerish angst or weakness. That's why the great number of us shy away from Byrned-Jurgened Superman. Then they toy with us by R2K, Krypto and now Supergirl.....but I don't believe for a second there will be a significant transformation. There are rumblings that somehow this won't  be the "real" Kara anyway. And I will again be let down.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 24, 2005, 12:52:32 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Kurt, does DC provide writers with any legal restrictions regarding the use of Superman or other characters?  e.g.  "Thou Shalt Not Portray Superman With A Yellow Triangle S Banner (even though it's an effective defense against old-school GL) Else The Trademark Powers That Be (under the sublime leadership of General Zod) Will Smite You And Your Heirs!"


Nope.

I mean, the obvious legal restrictions, like, "Do Thou Never Craft a Tale In Which Superman Fighteth Thanos or the Good Doctor Octopus, Yea, Or E'en the Ginger-Haired Archie Andrews, Brief Combat Though It Would Be, Without The Sheltering Umbrella of a Properly-Secured Crossover Deal" kinda go without saying.  And if there are any others, they at least don't provide a list.

I would assume, if there was some legal reason they couldn't show Superman with a "Yellow Triangle S Banner" (whatever that is), they wouldn't bring it up unless someone said, "And then we'll have Superman whip up a new Yellow Triangle S Banner, and..."

I mean, there was a time Jim Lee drew a whole bunch of Batmobiles in a BATMAN story, and DC made him change the shot of the TV Batmobile a little because they don't actually have the rights to it.  But that's not something they're going to pass out on a list -- it's only going to come up if someone starts drawing old Batmobiles.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 24, 2005, 06:38:36 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
I mean, the obvious legal restrictions, like, "Do Thou Never Craft a Tale In Which Superman Fighteth Thanos or the Good Doctor Octopus, Yea, Or E'en the Ginger-Haired Archie Andrews, Brief Combat Though It Would Be, Without The Sheltering Umbrella of a Properly-Secured Crossover Deal"

"Mighty Thor: Attorney At Large" premieres this Thursday on NBC.  Be there, or fie upon it!  

Quote
kinda go without saying.  And if there are any others, they at least don't provide a list.

I would assume, if there was some legal reason they couldn't show Superman with a "Yellow Triangle S Banner" (whatever that is)

FWIW, I was referring to the "S" logo Superman had in Action Comics #1, which was a 3-side triangle rather than a a 5-sided diamond cut, didn't have any red in it, and for all I know might have some perverse legal encumberance associated with it since I rarely see it used.  I wasn't going to speculate too much on what crazy crap the lawyers may come up with, so I err on the side of farce.  

Quote
, they wouldn't bring it up unless someone said, "And then we'll have Superman whip up a new Yellow Triangle S Banner, and..."

I mean, there was a time Jim Lee drew a whole bunch of Batmobiles in a BATMAN story, and DC made him change the shot of the TV Batmobile a little because they don't actually have the rights to it.  But that's not something they're going to pass out on a list -- it's only going to come up if someone starts drawing old Batmobiles.

I was fuzzily thinking that over the decades, enough incidents like this might've happened where it makes sense to have guidelines handed out to  every creator, but this makes sense too.  
Thanks for replying.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on September 24, 2005, 07:04:58 PM
Quote
FWIW, I was referring to the "S" logo Superman had in Action Comics #1, which was a 3-side triangle rather than a a 5-sided diamond cut, didn't have any red in it, and for all I know might have some perverse legal encumberance associated with it since I rarely see it used. I wasn't going to speculate too much on what crazy crap the lawyers may come up with, so I err on the side of farce.


erm...

on sale in 2006 http://dccomics.com/media/products/4087_a_full.jpg

also from 1998:

http://superman.nu/tales2/thesuperman/


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 24, 2005, 07:52:41 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Quote
FWIW, I was referring to the "S" logo Superman had in Action Comics #1, which was a 3-side triangle rather than a a 5-sided diamond cut, didn't have any red in it, and for all I know might have some perverse legal encumberance associated with it since I rarely see it used. I wasn't going to speculate too much on what crazy crap the lawyers may come up with, so I err on the side of farce.


erm...

on sale in 2006 http://dccomics.com/media/products/4087_a_full.jpg

also from 1998:

http://superman.nu/tales2/thesuperman/

Both those show an "S" logo with red in it.  Contrast with the actual Action Comics #1, where the cover shows a red "S" that looks more like a police badge than either a 3 or 5-sided object, and the inside depicts a yellow "S" with no red in it.  Actually, looking at it again in full and not just going from memory, the last panel of Action Comics #1 does look like what you have above, judging from the reprint online at:

http://superman.nu/tales2/action1/?page=-1

It's just a hypothetical example.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Great Rao on September 24, 2005, 08:38:08 PM
I've done a little bit of research, and have reached the following conclusion regarding Superman's S logo, which may or may not be accurate.

The police-badge shaped "shield" S (http://superman.nu/a/images/one-same.gif) that we see on the cover of Action Comics #1 (http://superman.nu/tales2/action1/?page=-1) was Jerry Siegel's original design for the logo, and was only used in pre-1936-ish drawings.

The yellow triangle design is used inside Action and we also see it on the cover to Superman #1 (on which the above forthcoming action figure is based).  This was a later redesign.

That's my theory :).  Corrections are welcome.

:s:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on September 24, 2005, 08:38:31 PM
http://dccomics.com/media/products/3200_a_full.jpg
Superman, the world's first super-hero, made his debut in 1938's ACTION COMICS #1! Celebrate this landmark first appearance with a stunning action figure representing the MAN OF STEEL's original costume! The SUPERMAN ACTION FIGURE measures approximately 6 7/8" tall, features multiple points of articulation and a cloth cape. This figure includes a base and a mini-reproduction of the comic in which the character first appeared and is packaged in a 4-color deluxe blister.

It is clear that DC owns that logo and has used it.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Great Rao on September 24, 2005, 08:40:27 PM
Looks like they colored his sandles wrong again...

:s:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on September 24, 2005, 08:45:57 PM
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-10/425231/SupeWink.gif)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: MatterEaterLad on September 24, 2005, 09:46:01 PM
I like the fly on the original trunks, apparently Golden Age Supes as conceived for a comic strip couldn't fly into the sun to re-charge his Super Bladder -- but darn that the "science" behind the mythos never covered that... 8)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 27, 2005, 08:59:33 PM
Kurt, how do you feel about blue "Electric Superman"?

As our savior of Superman for this thread, can you promise that you will never impose Bluperman Freakazoid upon us, should you ever get a chance to write him?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 28, 2005, 02:39:23 AM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Kurt, how do you feel about blue "Electric Superman"?


If they ever need to do a "Superman On Ice" show, that's the look.

Quote
As our savior of Superman for this thread, can you promise that you will never impose Bluperman Freakazoid upon us, should you ever get a chance to write him?


I would sooner put him in Zatanna's outfit.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on September 28, 2005, 11:44:34 AM
Was it just me, Mr. Busiek, or did you have greater respect for the Avengers than the JLA in JLA/Avengers.  It seemed to me the Avengers were portrayed as the generally better and more effective team, Superman beating Thor notwithstanding.

Also, would you please answer if you truly have a soft spot for Wanda?  She always seems to be portrayed -- too! -- well in relation to the other Avengers.  What is your take on the Scarlet Witch and her development from just a mutant to a genuine witch who occasionally seems to eclipse Odin and Thor?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 28, 2005, 12:10:50 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Was it just me, Mr. Busiek, or did you have greater respect for the Avengers than the JLA in JLA/Avengers.  It seemed to me the Avengers were portrayed as the generally better and more effective team, Superman beating Thor notwithstanding.


I hear from some Marvel fans that I was clearly biased toward DC, and must have been being paid under the table to make Marvel look bad.  I hear from some DC fans that I was clearly biased toward Marvel, and must not know o care enough about DC to write those characters "right."

As such, I figure I probably got it right...

Quote
Also, would you please answer if you truly have a soft spot for Wanda?  She always seems to be portrayed -- too! -- well in relation to the other Avengers.  What is your take on the Scarlet Witch and her development from just a mutant to a genuine witch who occasionally seems to eclipse Odin and Thor?


I like her quite a bit as a character.  I don't think she's ever eclipsed Odin or Thor.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 28, 2005, 12:43:30 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
I hear from some Marvel fans that I was clearly biased toward DC, and must have been being paid under the table to make Marvel look bad.  I hear from some DC fans that I was clearly biased toward Marvel, and must not know o care enough about DC to write those characters "right."

As such, I figure I probably got it right...


While I've been trying to limit this thread to Superman-related questions, my "read" on the Avengers is that they have better "team" combat tactics and are more likely to actually practice together as a team.  By contrast, the JLA tends to be a little more individualistic overall, but usually had Martian Manhunter to telepathically keep the team in sync.  Though it might vary with particular lineups, I don't think either team does "team" combat quite like, say, the classic X-Men (who both train _and_ have Charles in charge) or the Teen Titans.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Gary on September 29, 2005, 10:26:22 AM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
I hear from some Marvel fans that I was clearly biased toward DC, and must have been being paid under the table to make Marvel look bad.  I hear from some DC fans that I was clearly biased toward Marvel, and must not know o care enough about DC to write those characters "right."

As such, I figure I probably got it right...


For my money, you did get it right. JLA/AVENGERS showed obvious respect and regard for both teams.

If there's any bias in those issues, I would say it's in favor of the heroes (both groups) and against the baddies. Even though the latter were power-boosted (according to Metron), the heroes still managed to mow most of them down pretty quickly in book four. (Of course, I understand that this was done to suit the dramatic needs of the story, and you can always argue that mind-controlled people make poor fighters even when enhanced.)

All in all, IMO, JLA/AVENGERS was a great read. Thanks for writing it.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 30, 2005, 08:35:06 AM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote
As our savior of Superman for this thread, can you promise that you will never impose Bluperman Freakazoid upon us, should you ever get a chance to write him?

I would sooner put him in Zatanna's outfit.

Hey, her light blue / Dr. Strangey red cape / no fishnets look almost works.  

Almost.

Damnit, Kurt, you've replaced one bad image (Electric Superman) with another (Supes in fishnets)!  I will never forgive you!  Sometimes, people write about their nightmares to exorcise them, not add to them!  

:)  Seriously...

Kurt, was Superman marrying Lois Lane a mistake (in your opinion)?  
I just read some comments you made about Spider-Man and MJ:
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=37112
Obviously, Superman isn't Spider-Man, but it got me to thinking...


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on September 30, 2005, 12:12:38 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Kurt, was Superman marrying Lois Lane a mistake (in your opinion)?  
I just read some comments you made about Spider-Man and MJ:
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=37112
Obviously, Superman isn't Spider-Man, but it got me to thinking...


Superman doesn't depend anywhere near as heavily on Clark being young, or on Clark being torn between responsibilities in heroic and private life as Spider-Man does with Peter, so it's not a mistake to that extent.

However, having Lois know the secret and marry Clark upsets the classic triangle and the underlying archetypes beneath the character (Clark is the unimpressive child, Superman the respected and powerful adult, and the two together a metaphor for adolescence and youthful wish-fulfilment) without really replacing it with anything that works as well.

So until and unless they find a way to make married-Clark as compelling on a symbolic level as weak-ass Clark, I think it was probably a mistake.  Just not as large a mistake as having a character dependent on being a hard-luck youngster trapped by a secret he dares not reveal married to an actress-model who can smooth over half his responsibilities when necessary.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on September 30, 2005, 12:18:58 PM
Kurt, if I may call you that, I think you have it half right, or at least your answer is incomplete.

The Byrning gave us a Clark Kent who is the real man with Superman being the disguise.  Byrned Clark Kent is exactly the same personality as Byrned Superman, or he's supposed to be so. (I'll leave off the issues of Superman's leadership qualities and Kent's lack of them for now.)  Byrned Superman/Clark Kent is a heroic, alpha-male man of action in or out of the costume.

The only way the classic triangle would work is if the dichotomy between Clark Kent and Superman existed again.

The triangle really didn't exist from the MOS miniseries onwards regardless of whether Lois knew the secret ID, married the man, or both.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 30, 2005, 02:41:11 PM
My thoughts on how Clark and leadership should work (and the overall Superman Clark dichotomy) go something like this:

As Clark becomes Super, he finds he has to rein himself in. After some incident or other, perhaps with persuasion by Ma and Pa Kent, he concludes that doesn't want to be hauled in as a freak and doesn't yet know his potential (which would make anyone hauling him in awfully difficult).  Also, he doesn't yet have full control, possibly because his powers came in intermittently.  Show him accidentally hurting someone in a football game.  So he goes from being JV football star to isolationist "always having to help with the farm".  (Heck, the fact that he had time enough to play football with a farmer lifestyle is notable in and of itself.)  

Though he avoids people, Lana falls for him and worries about him, and this evolves into that lovely scene where he reveals his powers and his concerns.  He needs to find himself -and- he doesn't want to hurt Lana.  Don't make it be -just- "I'm a god I need to find myself goodbye", so we don't have Lana as perpetually despondent without Supes.  That'd also explain why he leaves the farm and family -- doesn't want to hurt Ma and Pa accidentally while he works through this.

Fast forward to adult Clark.  After some "away" adventures, he finds that he wants to have a life where he can just "hang out" and be with people.  He doesn't want to be an alpha male when he's not wearing the S.  He wants to sometimes just be able to listen, but that's hard to do when, as the leader. everyone expects him to talk and everyone is looking for his reaction when someone else talks.  Besides, it's too easy to be the alpha male when he can't be hurt and can out-do most anyone at most anything.  He's conflicted because he is a natural leader, powers or not, but on the whole, have Clark express the stuff he can't as Superman.  

Make "being a reporter" about his desire to listen, perhaps him wanting to feel "human" like he did when he wasn't so super growing up, more than about being close to where the action is to fight crimes.  Remember all those statues Supes made pre-Crisis?  Have Clark be the sculptor and want to show his work at an amateur level, beyond just engaging in ancestor worship.  It's something that he can't do as Superman because his art would be judged more on "it's Superman" than its value.  Have Kal-El be one person, but with Supes and Clark as dimensions of his personality.  

Ok, enough rambling for one post.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on September 30, 2005, 04:15:26 PM
Basically, Uncle Mxy, you're saying Clark returns to a meeker, more introspective personality which harkens back to the saner Pre Crisis elements of Clark Kent.  But keeping him Byrned in personality clearly makes it impossible for him to have a worthwhile dichotomy to make the Lois/Clark/Superman triangle work.

Since you chose to bring up the leadership aspect, let me comment further on that.

The one significant difference between Superman and Clark Kent after the Byrning was Superman is a natural leader while Clark Kent is not.  Otherwise, we'd see everyone reflexively deferring to Clark in situations, his boss, parents, or otherwise.  Kent would be a leading force perhaps running the Daily Planet or having carved out an empire like Luthor did.  The only way this works is if Kal-El is deliberately holding back any leadership qualities as Clark Kent while feeling free to express them as Superman.  In this one regard, Byrned Clark Kent cannot be Byrned Superman and, indeed, Superman is closer to the real man in this regard.

Just the same, in all other regards, Superman is just Clark in a costume free to use his super-powers.  His personality is basically the same so the great dichotomy really is irrelevant Post Crisis.

Therefore, marrying Byrned Clark off makes no difference to a dynamic that is nonexistent.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 30, 2005, 05:59:17 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Basically, Uncle Mxy, you're saying Clark returns to a meeker, more introspective personality which harkens back to the saner Pre Crisis elements of Clark Kent.

Just by putting on the costume and even pretending to be a normal joe, Clark will have to be "meeker" than Superman.  But he also can do things that a Superman can't do -- take a break, visit a friend without a mob following him, etc.  In my ideal world, Clark should be as liberating in some ways as Superman, just different ways.  There's a lot of focus on how Clark acts or doesn't act, less focus on what specific things really motivate him.  I remember how Maggin's Clark has a hobby of collecting amusing TV commercials.  Why wouldn't Clark have a real hobby, just something that he couldn't easily express as Superman?  

Quote
But keeping him Byrned in personality clearly makes it impossible for him to have a worthwhile dichotomy to make the Lois/Clark/Superman triangle work.

Agreed.  Poor Lois has to pick between two super guys to be with.  One flies and saves the earth on a regular basis, the other is a Pulitzer Prize winning football stud.  They both look alike, though one would look better if he wore contact lenses or got Lasik, maybe did his hair a little different.  

Quote
Since you chose to bring up the leadership aspect, let me comment further on that.

The one significant difference between Superman and Clark Kent after the Byrning was Superman is a natural leader while Clark Kent is not.  Otherwise, we'd see everyone reflexively deferring to Clark in situations, his boss, parents, or otherwise.  Kent would be a leading force perhaps running the Daily Planet or having carved out an empire like Luthor did. The only way this works is if Kal-El is deliberately holding back any leadership qualities as Clark Kent while feeling free to express them as Superman.  In this one regard, Byrned Clark Kent cannot be Byrned Superman and, indeed, Superman is closer to the real man in this regard.

Exactly!  How much does earthly ambition mean to a guy who is as rich, famous, and admired as he wants to be, and then some?  But the opposite of "ambitious" isn't necessarily "meek" -- more like "slacker".  Now "slacker Superman" is amusing as a Red K accident (I liked that L&C episode!).  But I was thinking something akin to the lead character Peter from the movie Office Space, post-hypnosis.  He does what he wants to do and is surreally self-assured, but he's not exactly "ambitious".  

Quote
Just the same, in all other regards, Superman is just Clark in a costume free to use his super-powers.  His personality is basically the same so the great dichotomy really is irrelevant Post Crisis.

Therefore, marrying Byrned Clark off makes no difference to a dynamic that is nonexistent.

I agree.  I just think that the split between Supes and Clark should flow from "what does Kal-El wnat to do".  Most of pre-Crisis Clark's personality elements were solely about how to quick-change into Superman.  If I were  Kal-El, it seems like I would put myself in a better position to do that.  Have Clark be a freelance journalist for the Planet rather than a regular staffer, refusing that regular job offer for scooping Lois on Superman, but always hanging around at the Planet ('cause he's got the hots for Lois, naturally).  Why would he do such a thing?  Well, that's a mystery for Lois.  Have both Clark and Superman be "mystery men" to Lois -- each somewhat two-dimensional, but when you put it together then he becomes three-dimensional.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 03, 2005, 12:03:03 AM
On a completely different tangent...

Kurt, how friendly should Superman and Batman be toward each other?  

Generally, there's the pre-Crisis "best of Superfriends", the post-Crisis "Batman is the shadow to Superman's light", many Elseworlds where they're at odds, etc.  What do you think works best for what you'd want to write?

Also, when is Superman: Public Identity coming out, again?  :)  Seriously, how did the title for Superman: SI come about?  Was there ever any other ideas on what to call it?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 03, 2005, 12:34:55 AM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Kurt, how friendly should Superman and Batman be toward each other?  

Generally, there's the pre-Crisis "best of Superfriends", the post-Crisis "Batman is the shadow to Superman's light", many Elseworlds where they're at odds, etc.  What do you think works best for what you'd want to write?


When I wrote WORLD'S FINEST -- for two whole issues -- my take on it was that each was the only guy the other could relax with, the only one who knew what it was really like to do what they did.  Bruce didn't have to be public-Bruce or grim-avenger-for-effect, Clark didn't have to be meek-Clark or unshakeable-Supes.  As such, when they were hanging out, we saw their real selves.  I liked that approach.

Oh, you can nitpick it -- the whole JLA knew, for instance -- but I think, pre-Crisis, everyone else looked up to them and that changed the dynamics.  The two of them were equals and their friendship was built on respect.  The only other person that could be on that same level was Diana, but both of them are too guy-ish (in different ways) for it to work out the same.

Post-Crisis, Clark has Ma and Pa (and later, Lois).  Bruce doesn't have anyone.  That may be why he's so f@#ked up.

But on that basis, I think they don't have to be friends, but they do still have that respect, and that works too.

I like 'em best as very, very different -- but still friends.

Quote
Also, when is Superman: Public Identity coming out, again?  :)  Seriously, how did the title for Superman: SI come about?  Was there ever any other ideas on what to call it?


Originally, I just wanted to call it S.  Just use the shield.  Marketing said no.  So for a while it was called SUPERMAN: A LIFE IN SECRET, which always felt clunky to me.  And one day, the title SECRET IDENTITY hit me -- the series is all about the secrets inside us that make up our true self, the identity we share with so few others.  So it just seemed to work.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 03, 2005, 08:16:05 AM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
When I wrote WORLD'S FINEST -- for two whole issues -- my take on it was that each was the only guy the other could relax with, the only one who knew what it was really like to do what they did.  Bruce didn't have to be public-Bruce or grim-avenger-for-effect, Clark didn't have to be meek-Clark or unshakeable-Supes.  As such, when they were hanging out, we saw their real selves.  I liked that approach.

Oh, you can nitpick it -- the whole JLA knew, for instance -- but I think, pre-Crisis, everyone else looked up to them and that changed the dynamics.  The two of them were equals and their friendship was built on respect.  The only other person that could be on that same level was Diana, but both of them are too guy-ish (in different ways) for it to work out the same.

Post-Crisis, Clark has Ma and Pa (and later, Lois).  Bruce doesn't have anyone.  That may be why he's so f@#ked up.

Or it could be because of pre-Crisis cover art suggesting that Batman is a dick.  Observe:

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/216/400/216_4_308.jpg

I _just_ saw the above on Superdickery recently, and had no idea that it was for a Kurt Busiek story until I looked up those two issues.  Did you do the word balloons for the cover?  :)  Oh FWIW, here's the cover for the other World's Finest Kurt did.

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/216/400/216_4_309.jpg

Quote
But on that basis, I think they don't have to be friends, but they do still have that respect, and that works too.

I like 'em best as very, very different -- but still friends.

I do as well.  I was just reading Matt Wagner's Trinity, and enjoying a similar dynamic.  

Quote
Originally, I just wanted to call it S.  Just use the shield.  Marketing said no.  So for a while it was called SUPERMAN: A LIFE IN SECRET, which always felt clunky to me.  And one day, the title SECRET IDENTITY hit me -- the series is all about the secrets inside us that make up our true self, the identity we share with so few others.  So it just seemed to work.

I agree with marketing about "S".  Living in the computer age, the more distinctively that you name something, the easier it is to categorize and find it.  Go search for :s: in Google.  And "A Life In Secret" sounds like soap opera ("Lois's sister isn't really dead, and she's sleeping with Lex!"  <gasps>).  When I first saw the title, I was surprised it hadn't already been used.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 03, 2005, 10:13:13 AM
Kurt, should Superman be just another super-hero, the premiere, legendary iconic DC super-hero, or somewhere between these two extremes, in your opinion?

Would you try to make him the first super-hero, chronologically, in the DCU again if you had the chance?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 03, 2005, 01:02:12 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
I _just_ saw the above on Superdickery recently, and had no idea that it was for a Kurt Busiek story until I looked up those two issues.  Did you do the word balloons for the cover?  :)


I had nothing at all to do with the cover.  From concept to dialogue, it was the work of cover-editor Len Wein (and the artists, of course).

Quote
Living in the computer age, the more distinctively that you name something, the easier it is to categorize and find it.  Go search for :s: in Google.


I actually had marketing ideas about that, but maybe I'll get to use them elsewhere someday.  

Quote
When I first saw the title, I was surprised it hadn't already been used.


Same with me, when I first thought of it.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 03, 2005, 01:05:00 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Kurt, should Superman be just another super-hero, the premiere, legendary iconic DC super-hero, or somewhere between these two extremes, in your opinion?


Leaning toward the latter, at least.  The most important hero, the top of the pyramid.

Quote
Would you try to make him the first super-hero, chronologically, in the DCU again if you had the chance?


I actually have ideas on how to do that without messing up continuity, but they may be too messy to work.  But I may figure out how to un-messy them.

In short, though, I'd like him to be the first, but I don't think I'd necessarily try to make it happen, unless I could figure out a way that didn't cause lots of problems along the way.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 03, 2005, 02:21:54 PM
Thanks, Kurt!

I'm happy to see that you share the sensibilities of much of superfandom on those questions.

And it's also very refreshing to see someone considering the consequences of what he's writing instead of being narrow-mindedly fixated on just the current story.

I won't mention any of the writers -- one in particular! -- who don't give a hang about consequences down the line.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 03, 2005, 04:35:39 PM
Of course, there's the overly-popular reboot/retcon/reset switch that's used far too often.

The fact that the esteemed Kurt Busiek never even considered that ill-considered option is very heartwarming and reassuring.

:)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Gary on October 03, 2005, 04:51:59 PM
Even if you did use that option, you'd have a hard time arranging it so that Superman predated all of the "golden age" heroes. What would your options be? (1) erase those heroes from continuity; (2) let there be two Supermen, as there were pre-crisis; (3) let the current Superman be 80+ years old; (4) say that Supey somehow got transported from the WWII era to the present, a la Cap'n America. None of these seem like very good options.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 03, 2005, 05:10:36 PM
You're not thinking big enough, Gary.

Recall the great Crisis and overall reboot of the entire DCU in 1986.

For writing it's the same as computer programming: Any novice or hack can rewrite the thing from scratch.  It takes skill, experience, and talent to take something existing and work with that to make something new.

The great guest of this thread has proven amply he falls into the talented category esp. by refusing to consider the reboot option.

A certain talentless hack has already proven -- repeatedly! -- that he can do nothing without seeking to rework and redefine whatever he lays his paws upon.  And even then, he couldn't keep things straight even with himself.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kuuga on October 04, 2005, 10:13:50 AM
Hey Kurt. Good to see you here.

I was just wanting to ask you, if you were on All Star or mainline Superman title, what artists do you think you'd like to work with for such projects?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 04, 2005, 12:56:00 PM
Quote from: "Kuuga"
Hey Kurt. Good to see you here.

I was just wanting to ask you, if you were on All Star or mainline Superman title, what artists do you think you'd like to work with for such projects?


I can think of lots, from guys I've worked with a lot before, like Carlos Pacheco, George Perez, Stuart Immonen and Brent Anderson, to guys I've worked with less but want to work with more, like Jerry Ordway, Alan Davis and Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez, to guys I hain't worked with at all, like Mark Silvestri, Lee Weeks, Leonard Kirk, and on and on and on.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 04, 2005, 01:00:32 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
You're not thinking big enough, Gary.


Maybe so, maybe no, but Gary's just articulated my problems with a reboot clearly and concisely -- I wouldn't know how to do it without causing more problems than it solves.

I wouldn't have that big a problem with some minor continuity-massaging, and wouldn't refuse to consider it by any means.  But there's a difference between considering something and figuring out a way to make it work...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: VanZee on October 04, 2005, 08:37:41 PM
>>You're not thinking big enough, Gary.

>Maybe so, maybe no, but Gary's just articulated my problems with a reboot clearly and concisely -- I wouldn't know how to do it without causing more problems than it solves.

The tragedy of Crisis for me is that DC picked the wrong Superman to continue forward.

It seems to me the first steps are to put the most important criteria on the table first, foremost among these are that the elements NON-fans think of when they think of the character are represented and preserved (ie, these are iconic and framing elements, central to identity).  For Superman, those are his boyhood as Superboy, Clark Kent, Lana, Lois (single), Jimmy, Perry, Kandor, etc.  For non-fans, these are seen as  very nostalgic elements: "Everybody knows these things about Superman."

Seems to me gifted writers could construct "two ages" of Superman (much like the E1, E2 versions).

The first age would contain all of the timeless and iconic and central elements of the Superman mythos, set in  some timeless past age (much like Batman the Animated Series seemed set in some mythic gothic past).  This Superman would have his own book(s).  He would have his boyhood adventures, his dog, and his cousin.

The second age would be to advance Superman in years, put gray at his temples (like E2, who had great dignity) and years of experience as the model by which all other heroes are compared.  We already know that Superman is immortal, or nearly so, so advancing his years would neither dim his eye or his powers.  Perhaps he'd be more powerful than ever.  He would be scarred through the loss of dear friends, now the quintessential alien, his values--formed when the world was more naive and perhaps more noble--would endure; rather than seeming silly or campish, these values would transcend pop culture and shifting mores.  This would be the Superman that interacts with the modern era and, as such, could be completely re-written with a new cast of supporting characters, the ultimate reboot.  Clutter could be cleaned out, problematic elements written from the storyline through the passage of time and the villainy of foes.  Maybe in this realm he is outed as Clark but has largely retired his uniform except for those great moments of peril.  Maybe a mature Jimmy is publisher of the Planet, and Clark serves as US Senator from Kansas (being non-native, he cannot be President).  This Superman would also have his own book(s).

I recall one of my all-time favorite Superman stories, the Immortal Superman, where Kal-El had lived on, long years beyond his friends and companions.  He was a tragic figure, but still champion of the earth and ready to do battle on its behalf, his values as invulnerable as his body.

Wild as this sounds, I think it would be very comforting to people familiar with the mythos of Superman, who could pick up one book and see all those elements in place, and to a new generation-- unfaamiliar with the mythos-- who just want to read about Earth's most powerful champion, grizzled and weatherbeaten but tough as nails.

Writers that absolutely had to monkey with core elements could monkey in the modern era... but the original would live on in his mythic and iconic past.  Each era would be a joy to write.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 05, 2005, 08:52:11 AM
Quote from: "VanZee"
Writers that absolutely had to monkey with core elements could monkey in the modern era... but the original would live on in his mythic and iconic past.  Each era would be a joy to write.

Note that writers ranging from Alan Moore (Supreme, Tom Strong) to John Byrne (Generations) have done this sort of thing to Superman archetypes.

Superman isn't consistently immortal.  The classic LSH tales don't have a 30th century Superman in them.  Lots of imaginary future tales showed him as dead or looking / acting his age when projected into the future.  I kinda like that.  Kurt's Superman: SI grew old and wasn't seemingly going to live forever, and that was refreshing.  To me, Superman being immortal and _knowing_ that he'll be immortal is a really big deal as far as how he relates to everyone around him.  Some examples:

- Do you think that a Superman who knows he's immortal gets himself so attached to mortals that he totally flips out when they inevitably die?  
- Is he thinking about the "death"/long-term future of Clark Kent, knowing that an 80-year old Clark who looks in his 20s would be suspicious?  
- Does he interact in interesting ways with other immortals, good and bad (think Highlander TV series)?  
- How bored might he get living life for "forever" at super-speed, or how does his brain work to overcome that?  (That's an issue for speedsters in general but at least most of them age, unless the Speed Force grants eternal middle-age for everyone.)  
- If you know that your Super-children will live forever, would you raise them differently... prepare them for loss and ennui better, perhaps?  
- What grand things would he want to do a few thousand years from now once civilization has hopefully evolved to not need him on patrol?  
etc.

How much of this fits in a popular comic book is questionable?  Superman being approached by some immortal who's seen it all and wants powerful Superman to help him in assisted suicide might get the riot squad out.  I doubt that'd have been an issue for Alan Moore's Supreme.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 06, 2005, 12:15:05 PM
On a separate note:

Kurt, how smart is Superman in your mind?  He's been depicted anywhere from a super-innovative genius nearly as smart as scientist Luthor,  to a super-uncreative computron, to little more than a big blue dumb boy scout.  What do you think works best, as a writer?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 06, 2005, 01:51:31 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Kurt, how smart is Superman in your mind?  He's been depicted anywhere from a super-innovative genius nearly as smart as scientist Luthor,  to a super-uncreative computron, to little more than a big blue dumb boy scout.  What do you think works best, as a writer?


I don't want to see him building robots or curing cancer, but I think he's pretty smart.  Not scientist-smart, but regular-human-being, good-analytical-skills/sound-judgment smart.

I'd rather see him go get technical help because he's smart enough to know he needs it than have the same kind of mad-science skills his foes have.

At the same time, I have to admit, I like those old stories where he works on finding a cure for something in his Fortress Lab.

So I dunno.  Worth thinking about.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 06, 2005, 02:03:57 PM
Kurt, now that we've done our obligatory what makes Superman look good questions, let's go the other way.

What character flaws would you give Superman and why?  Which ones do you think he already has and how would you work those into your stories?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 06, 2005, 03:13:30 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Kurt, now that we've done our obligatory what makes Superman look good questions, let's go the other way.

What character flaws would you give Superman and why?  Which ones do you think he already has and how would you work those into your stories?


I don't know.  I don't really view characters as collections of discrete virtues and flaws, but merely of attributes.

For instance, Superman would not sacrifice a child to save a nation.  Is that a virtue or a flaw?

And honest, I'm not gonna be outlining how I'd work anything into stories I'd write, on two grounds:

1. I wouldn't know without working out the stories, so I couldn't tell you unless I actually had the job; and

2. If I did, I wouldn't tell you because I'd want you to find out by reading them.

But what do you (and everyone else here) think are Superman's flaws, and what stories have pointed them up well?

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Gary on October 06, 2005, 05:32:40 PM
Not really flaws per se, but I think Superman, like a lot of classic heroes, has strengths that can be used against him as weaknesses. Always being willing to help those in need, having an absolute code against killing, generally putting others' welfare before his own happiness are all character virtues, but all of them can cause him a lot of trouble depending on the situation.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: VanZee on October 06, 2005, 08:08:14 PM
Quote
But what do you (and everyone else here) think are Superman's flaws, and what stories have pointed them up well?


I'd say a flaw is his rather reactive approach to danger.  Confident in his invulnerability, Superman usually takes a few rounds in the chest before responding to danger.

The smug joy he sometimes displays in having a secret others do not know... that's kind of a flaw.  The identity serves to protect the innocent, not give him superiority over the innocent.  Think of the times Lois has confessed some passion about Superman to Clark (or vice versa); is it really ethical for Superman (or Clark), the most ethical of all beings, to use that information?  Is it ethical for Clark to use super powers to improve his profession, to advance his career?

Actually, the Clark Kent persona is Superman's greatest weakness and has definitely generated more stories than anything else-- the constant danger of having his secret exposed, the innocent and fragile people he must protect (and endanger!) while trying to maintain "normal" relationships with them, the... well, let's face it... deceits and equivocations counter to his nature he must concoct in order to protect it, etc.  You know, without CK's life and his circle of friends Superman would be without meaningful weakness.  You wonder sometimes why Superman even keeps CK around, the identity creates so many problems.  It's not as if Superman himself doesn't maintain relationships with that circle of mortals as well.  Jimmy is *Superman's* best friend, remember.

Ultimately, Clark is a lie, a weakness that a strong hero must hide behind... meek, timid, even cowardly and unmanly.  What part of Superman's true self does Clark even represent?  What would happen if Clark just got lost for a while?

A good story would explore that, find new ground in that, and probably prove my assessment of the Clark persona totally shallow and in error.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: NotSuper on October 07, 2005, 12:48:21 AM
I think Superman should be a genius, but should have a lesser intelligence than Brainiac, Luthor, and Jor-El. In addition, Superman's intelligence should not be a result of his super-powers--he's naturally intelligent. Superman would have a greater knowledge of advanced technology than Luthor and his mind would work much faster, but Luthor would be more naturally gifted. Luthor would be a super-genius in any time or civilization.

As for the order of intelligence, it should go something like this, in my view: Brainiac > Jor-El > Luthor > Superman > Batman

Batman would be a better strategist than any of these individuals, though. Not to mention his superb detective/deductive skills.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on October 07, 2005, 02:05:23 AM
The real Superman's IQ was super-human, but Jor-El was still always smarter and one can make the case that  Luthor and Brainiac were as well.

The current so-called "superman" person is usually written as an idiot, who rather solve problems with brute force rather than brains.


The true Superman didn't have a lot of faults, although many of his good traits could be exploited to hurt him, but that does not mean that he should have changed anything about himself.

The current superman is a mess with nothing but faults and not much to like or care about, who needs saving, thus this thread.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: ShinDangaioh on October 07, 2005, 08:04:07 AM
The pre-Crisis Superman did have a problem with women and a fear of commitment.  He also has a problem with letting go of the past.  He kept his parent's house for years after they died.  I think he still had it by the time of the Crisis.  After Kandor was enlarged, he had a replica built and put on display in Kando's old position.  He actually has two replicas.

His entire philosphy of saying he will never marry because it would put someone in jeapordy falls flat with Lana Lang and her bio-ring.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 07, 2005, 11:39:01 AM
Pre Crisis Superman had another issue about women.  He was so incredibly chivalrous that he absolutely refused to hit a woman even if she were a super-powered villain.  That made for an interesting encounter when he had to face the Phantom Zoner, Faora Hu-Ul.  Faora also was a master of the Kryptonian marshall art of Horu Kanu and had a psychotic hatred of all men.  Superman was severely handicapped in trying to beat her and part of that was his own code of conduct with women.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 07, 2005, 11:44:22 AM
Kurt, T.M. Maple summed up best IMHO how to handle Superman's values about honesty and not killing.

http://superman.nu/a/maple.php

While some writers might make those liabilities, I think it would be best if these were shown in a more positive light.  As T.M. said, Superman should be super for morals too not just in his body.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 07, 2005, 12:36:00 PM
Quote from: "ShinDangaioh"
The pre-Crisis Superman did have a problem with women and a fear of commitment.  He also has a problem with letting go of the past.  He kept his parent's house for years after they died.  I think he still had it by the time of the Crisis.  After Kandor was enlarged, he had a replica built and put on display in Kando's old position.  He actually has two replicas.

The thing is, Superman's fetish with statues and replicas is really about the artist wanting to draw cool and iconic stuff.  Same for the Batcave museum with Jason Todd's Robin costume, the dinosaur, and the big penny.  In any real-world context, such things would be creepy indeed, but do you count a trait that a character has for strictly visual purposes as a flaw?  It's like the litany of villains who have "must discuss their plan in great detail".  Would they really be that talkative in the real-world, or is that a device so you can have a word/thought balloon to set up a scene, a concession to the medium?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on October 07, 2005, 12:41:46 PM
It's less creepy than wax museums or taxidermy!

These things are no different than people having photo albums, home videos, and hanging photos, paintings, and mementos of love ones on their walls.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 07, 2005, 12:57:55 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
It's less creepy than wax museums or taxidermy!

These things are no different than people having photo albums, home videos, and hanging photos, paintings, and mementos of love ones on their walls.

Right, except they're so much larger (so they can be easily depicted).  Pictures is one thing, but making statues isn't that much different than a wax museum in my mind.  Pre-Crisis Superman should've been a sculptor in his secret identity.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 07, 2005, 11:54:10 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Kurt, T.M. Maple summed up best IMHO how to handle Superman's values about honesty and not killing.


I question the claim that Superman had an oath "never to tell a lie" -- or if he did, he sure broke it a lot.

Grabbing a couple of pre-Crisis issues at random, I find that in #295, he returns to the GBS studio as Clark after foiling some danger as Superman, and claims that he had to leave because the tension of the unfolding crisis had upset his digestion.

In #336, he stops a runaway truck as Clark, then melts the asphalt beneath it with his heat vision and claims that the truck must have sank into the street because the asphalt hadn't hardened yet, slowing it enough for him to stop it.  Later that same issue, as Superman, he "returns" a pendant to Rose Forrest, except that it's a non-dangerous duplicate of the pendant, which means he's not only lying when he says he's returning it, but he's a thief as well.

I'm sure we can all remember many times he's claimed illness as Clark, or that he caught a train back to the city when he actually flew off to outer space, or that he got Clark back to a hotel or other safe spot before appearing on the scene, and on and on.

His lies aren't harmful -- well, except when he lies to villains, and the villains wind up being harmed -- but they are lies.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 08, 2005, 02:16:23 AM
There's a surprisingly-decent post-marriage Lois & Clark episode called "Sex, Lies, and Videotape".  To summarize:

Some tabloid photographer sorta-kinda catches a married Superman and Lois in compromising positions.  Meanwhile, Superman is trying to help with fragile peace negotiations between two warring countries.  They're falling apart because they don't trust that Superman is being truthful owing to the bad press and the salacious photo (haven't any of these guys heard about Photoshop?!).  

As Superman, in uniform, he feels obligated to tell the truth, not just to save the peace, but because Superman is something greater than himself.  Ultimately, he tells the literal (dare I say Clintonesque?) truth about how he's not having an illicit affair with Lois (conveniently dodging how he's married to her :) ).  

I really liked the notion that he felt a higher standard wearing the suit, and by contrast, could more readily tell a lie as Clark.  It makes perfect sense, but isn't something I've ever seen spelled out in the comic books.  And it isn't even that simple -- Superman certainly tells lies to save the day.  My favorite lie is the one he tells Luthor in Superman II.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 08, 2005, 12:58:04 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
I really liked the notion that he felt a higher standard wearing the suit, and by contrast, could more readily tell a lie as Clark.


I like it, too, but yeah, that's why I made sure to use the Rose Forrest example -- to include a lie told as Superman, unrelated to the protection of his secret identity.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: TELLE on October 08, 2005, 10:08:04 PM
I'm sure Superman wouldn't tell the truth if asked the name of his secret identity.  Maybe on the Kryptonian Day of Truth.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: forgottenhero on October 09, 2005, 10:17:59 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"


But what do you (and everyone else here) think are Superman's flaws, and what stories have pointed them up well?



His ego. I can't point to very many specific stories, but anyone that powerful is going to have a bit of an ego, and I remember a DC COMICS PRESENTS story written by Roy Thomas where he's fighting Dr. Sivana, and he says something like "I'm Superman -- that's 'Super,' as in 'better than you." (Chuck Austen even used this same line in a recent ACTION issue -- further proof that the guy lacks ideas, or at least lacks good ones.)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kuuga on October 10, 2005, 02:23:34 AM
I don't really think of it as a flaw so much as something that's a necessary part of him, there will just be times when he leads with his heart instead of his head and this can cause problems for him. Prolly the example of what I'm thinking of is Paul Dinis work on SUPERMAN: PEACE ON EARTH.

But he's not a dumb person or an egotistical one. I also think that people have a tendnacy to way over analyze little things about Superman and superheroes in general for that matter and like putting them in a negative light. I don't believe things like the secret identity are the product of ego.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Rugal 3:16 on October 10, 2005, 07:12:00 AM
Hi Mr. Buseik (remember me.. Although I would be surprised if you did)

anyway.

I always wondered..

What does Mr. Buseik like better..

Clark as the Disguise
Superman as the Disguise

Also It's not fair.. George Perez got to Work with Garcia Lopez in Donna Troy, and Kurt got left in the Cold..

And where is nightwing and Aldous there are many fascinating/intelligent posters here who talk more than continuity (not saying continuity talk is a bad thing no no) but IMO those two are the top tiers..


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 10, 2005, 12:23:41 PM
Quote from: "Rugal 3:16"
What does Mr. Buseik like better..

Clark as the Disguise
Superman as the Disguise


Both of them are different faces he shows publicly.  The non-disguise (who I think of as Kal) is who he is in private with people who know the truth.

Quote
Also It's not fair.. George Perez got to Work with Garcia Lopez in Donna Troy, and Kurt got left in the Cold..


Well, I have gotten to work with both of them separately, though I sure wouldn't say no to getting to do more with JLGL...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 10, 2005, 07:18:39 PM
Kurt, this is such an obvious question that I'd be surprised if you hadn't been asked this before.

You've made it clear on this thread that you respect both the established continuity of a character and the right of a writer to go with an innovative idea.

What if the great new idea contradicts what is already established in continuity with a character.  Would you be willing to defy established continuity to write that great story?

Or can you see an alternative here not covered by those two extremes?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 10, 2005, 07:30:25 PM
Oh, and my apologies for getting carried away earlier, Kurt.  Of course, we must read your actual stories instead of 'cheating' asking here.

I see two other necessary failings in Superman.

1) As Mark Waid put it in "Kingdom Come", Superman's inability to see himself as the inspiration he is to others is a necessary failing.  If he could see himself that way, the character would become horribly distorted and self-important which is most assuredly not Superman.

2) For a character of such vast powers and resources, he must necessarily have a paucity of imagination when it comes to using his powers.  If he truly used his abilities to their fullest extent and imagination, most stories would be over before the second panel of the first page.  In order to challenge Superman, writers must take away a good deal of his creativity in using his powers while having some plausible reason why he would do so.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 10, 2005, 09:23:33 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
1) As Mark Waid put it in "Kingdom Come", Superman's inability to see himself as the inspiration he is to others is a necessary failing.  If he could see himself that way, the character would become horribly distorted and self-important which is most assuredly not Superman.

That struck me as a necessary failing for the story, at least to the tragic extent it was taken.  Heck, by most accounts, Pre-Crisis Superman was horribly distorted and self important, and a lot of us loved it.  :)

Quote
2) For a character of such vast powers and resources, he must necessarily have a paucity of imagination when it comes to using his powers.  If he truly used his abilities to their fullest extent and imagination, most stories would be over before the second panel of the first page.  In order to challenge Superman, writers must take away a good deal of his creativity in using his powers while having some plausible reason why he would do so.

To what extent is that a function of the medium, though?  Go look at Maggin's fight scenes in the Superman novels, which are little blurs that wouldn't fly in a comic book sense, yet his stories moved along and made sense.  Honestly, if Superman (especially pre-Crisis Superman) used his stories to their fullest extent, most of the stories wouldn't even begin.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 10, 2005, 10:36:35 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
You've made it clear on this thread that you respect both the established continuity of a character and the right of a writer to go with an innovative idea.
What if the great new idea contradicts what is already established in continuity with a character.  Would you be willing to defy established continuity to write that great story?


Depends on the circumstances, and on what's getting defied.  Some aspects of Superman are so contradictory already that there's no way to do a story about it without contradicting something -- his "vulnerability to magic" pops to mind here.  Some bits are so terribly minor, or are part and parcel of the constant revision of comics time -- Superman, Superboy and Superbaby all met JFK during his Presidency, didn't they? -- that it doesn't seem like a big deal.  To pick a different character, I'd have no trouble writing a story that contradicted the early THOR story where Don Blake built a functioning android, for instance.

I don't think there need to be rigid, hard-and-fast rules in a creative field -- everything's case-by-case.  How good is the idea, how big is the contradiction?

Quote
Or can you see an alternative here not covered by those two extremes?


Well, yeah -- let's say you've decided that it's a great idea to reveal that Martha Kent's maiden name is Clark, and that's where they got the idea to name the baby Clark.  Not a bad idea.  But a little while ago, it was established that her maiden name was Hudson.  Not in any big way that affected any other stories, just an arbitrary choice.

Now, you can be continuity-rigid and say her name's Hudson, dammit, too bad the Clark idea didn't come along earlier.

Or you can be idea-supportive and say, don't worry about it, we'll all forget about that Hudson thing soon enough.

Or you can find a way to explain the change -- maybe the Superman Revenge Squad, in the future, analyzed out that if Superman grew up with a different name, he'd have had a very different self-image and a different future, so they brainwashed Martha and her whole family into thinking her name was Hudson, until Superman managed to defeat them and undo their tampering, and that one story happened during the tamper-period.

The thing is, some stories are worth doing that kind of explanation-spackling, and some aren't.  Spending a whole issue on why Martha was called Martha Hudson in one story can be done, but it sure seems like a waste of an issue.  Better, to my mind, to just say okay, her name was Martha Clark, that "Hudson" thing was a mistake, and hey, maybe Hudson is an old family name, and her full maiden name was Martha Hudson Clark, as a nod.

There's always a way to reconcile continuity and changes, but sometimes it's more trouble than it's worth.  So you go with your best judgment.  Sometimes, in the case of a conflict, you go with what's been established, sometimes you go with a better idea, sometimes it's worth explaining in-story why the old way wasn't what it seemed to be.

But there's no one choice that's right every time.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 11, 2005, 11:23:09 AM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Depends on the circumstances, and on what's getting defied.  Some aspects of Superman are so contradictory already that there's no way to do a story about it without contradicting something -- his "vulnerability to magic" pops to mind here.

Has he ever proven to be vulnerable to the very same magic that he was later proved to be invulnerable to, or vice versa?  I always figured a good way to fix Superman's variable vulnerability to magic would be to say that he's vulnerable to _some kinds_ of magic, and just not specify "some kinds" beyond what's already been depicted.  It's magic, after all.  

Quote
Some bits are so terribly minor, or are part and parcel of the constant revision of comics time -- Superman, Superboy and Superbaby all met JFK during his Presidency, didn't they? -- that it doesn't seem like a big deal.  To pick a different character, I'd have no trouble writing a story that contradicted the early THOR story where Don Blake built a functioning android, for instance.

It was a Demon Duplicate of Don Blake, which was the only thing Zaxton could make a duplicate of because he was really a magical construct of Odin.  :)

Quote
Or you can find a way to explain the change -- maybe the Superman Revenge Squad, in the future, analyzed out that if Superman grew up with a different name, he'd have had a very different self-image and a different future, so they brainwashed Martha and her whole family into thinking her name was Hudson, until Superman managed to defeat them and undo their tampering, and that one story happened during the tamper-period.

The sad part is that this is better than having Manhunters in Smallville brainwashing the whole town.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 11, 2005, 12:24:52 PM
I've always favoured Maggin's approach in his novelization of "Kingdom Come" when it comes to magic.

Copied from Knightshifter's site on this (which has a good deal of my own speculations on this included):

"But there was something about whatever it was that people called "magic." It was not one thing, magic, but a constellation of unknowns. It was almost as though by failing to understand the nature of a thing, that gave the thing a power over Superman. It was the unpredictability, like physics' exclusion principle: by understanding something you subvert its nature. Superman could never understand Captain Marvel or believe in the gods that had given Marvel a power to rival his own."
Excerpt from Chapter 28 "The Physics of Magic", Elliot S. Maggin's novelizaton of Kingdom Come.

Superman's belief structure is based on two things. Firstly, he was raised with midwestern common sense. Secondly, his Kryptonian heritage was solidly technocratic and scientifically based. His belief structure doesn't include the possibility of magic. This explains why he can be hurt by a Vampire, but he resists outright destruction by vastly superior magical forces. His subconscious kicks in his self-preservation instinct in life-threatening situations. It would make an interesting Elseworlds story if Superman had been raised in a magical culture. That way, his belief based vulnerability would be to scientific weaponry instead of magical forces.
Superman "can" resist magic. Superman is a thoroughly selfless character. He has been shown to resist magic when there is a grave need for it. Some examples:

Early 90's Superman vs. Blaze; Superman defeats Blaze in her own hell dimension. Stakes: Jimmy's soul is about to be taken by Blaze. This is no ordinary feat as Blaze has NEVER been beaten in her own realm. Blaze is a mystical demonic ruler who has total control over a mystical Hell. She's on a par with Neron and Satannus.

JLA Primeval: As was stated below by other folks, Superman resisted the magical and mystic energies of a Primeval God. Stake: the JLA's evolved existence. God power versus Superman Invulnerability.

Crossover, War of the Gods: Superman DEFLECTS and WEAKENS a mystical Bolt so powerful, it was designated to destroy the Greek Islands. Stake: Millions of lives in Greece. Although Superman was unable to completely stop it, he deflected (and resisted its destructive mystic energies) enough to save the Isles.

Some minor incidences:

Superman versus the Demon, Byrne era: The Demon blasts the MOS with Hellfire but causes no physical harm. Superman feels though as if it was burning in his mind and soul. He resists it enough to fling the Demon through several towers.

Superman as Gangbuster: Without his normal psyche intact, Superman breaks mystical bands that was restraining him.

Superman in Valhalla: Although he is fighting against demons in a mystical realm, he ultimately out survives the DC version of Thor, and becomes the War's number one warrior. As noted, Thor deems Superman the worthy lifter of Mjolnir, not Diana or anybody else.

The point of these examples is that at times, Superman resists magic due to some instance when he is no longer thinking about the effects on his body. He has been shown to resist even massive amounts of mystic energies because he believes that he can endure it, "and does"! Magic, and Mystical forces require faith to sustain it. The funny thing about bringing up Superman's vulnerability to magic is that everyone who says it will hurt him just says that it will, no questions asked. That's faith. But equally true is the belief that if you believe that it cannot hurt you, it will not. That too, is faith. This is just our opinion of the matter of course. Superman's mind is that of a mortal. There are many things, like a mortal, he does not understand. And magic is among them. He has been indoctrianted to believe that he has a weakness to magic, and thus when confronted by it, he automatically believes that he can be hurt by it. It is when he removes this belief (for the stakes at hand) that he overcomes magic.

The first 3 examples show this theory. The following 3 are a bit more diverse. Magic does not physically hurt the MOS, but rather he says it is hurting his soul. This is indicative of the nature of one type of magic.

The second example is when Superman no longer maintains his own psyche. He no longer has this "fear" of magic and thus breaks through mystic restraining bands. The last is when he fights so long in Valhalla that he is not affected by its magical nature (or that of its creatures) any more than WW or asgardian fighters, or even Thor. Magic is a tricky thing. It requires someone to believe in it to be effective. Belief systems have everything to do with it. And not everybody believes the same way. Superman "can" resist magic, only if he believes he can.

http://www.geocities.com/knightshifter100/Superman.html


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 11, 2005, 12:33:35 PM
Kurt, thanks for the very thoughtful, detailed answer on continuity and innovation.  I've read similar sentiments from Walt Simonson but nowhere near as detailed nor well thought out.  You make good sense, as usual, though I can't help commenting that what's a great idea some some might not be so to others, so it's a bit of a subjective call here just the same.

Uncle Mxy, I really fail to see how any incarnation of Superman truly understood how important and inspirational he was to everyone else.  He always seemed to be so modest and just trying to be one of the rest of the super-hero community.

Kurt, again, how much editor influence comes into play on a book?  Does it depend on the company, editor, writer, etc.?  Or is this one of those, "it depends on the situation" questions?

How much of the creative process of a book is reliant on fans accepting it vs the publishers/creators/etc.?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 11, 2005, 01:02:43 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
You make good sense, as usual, though I can't help commenting that what's a great idea some some might not be so to others, so it's a bit of a subjective call here just the same.


Of course -- in a creative edeavor, almost everything is going to boil down to subjective choice.

Quote
Kurt, again, how much editor influence comes into play on a book?  Does it depend on the company, editor, writer, etc.?  Or is this one of those, "it depends on the situation" questions?


Assuming you're talking about company-owned books, it depends almost entirely on the editor.  Some editors have a lot of direct input, some don't.  Some editors have a lot of input with some creators, and not with others.  There's no "right" way to do it, and no "wrong" one, either, except by the standards of "did sales go up" and "was the end result good."

Quote
How much of the creative process of a book is reliant on fans accepting it vs the publishers/creators/etc.?


I don't really know what that means, sorry.  Fans don't get input on the process.  They can accept or reject the results, but most readers probably don't know whether a book is plot-style or full-script, whether the editor asked for the ending to be changed, whether the artist drew what was written or reworked it...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 11, 2005, 01:54:02 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Uncle Mxy, I really fail to see how any incarnation of Superman truly understood how important and inspirational he was to everyone else.  He always seemed to be so modest and just trying to be one of the rest of the super-hero community.

Superman has lots of self-important "if I doesn't do something, all is lost" thinking, that conveniently ignores about all the people around him who could probably fix the problem that he's a commlink away from (usually people in a less precarious position than Superman at the time of the emergency du jour).  One can rarely know to what extent they inspire someone.  Does a parent quantitatively how much they inspire a child, or sometimes vice versa?  Superman certainly knew he was an inspiration in general.  Heck, he reported the news about himself.  And post-Crisis, he's been marginalized further.  

I just don't think that Superman not handling Magog and his ilk, negatively inspiring a defeatist attitude in old-school metahumans is the same as Superman positively inspriring them to be heroes throughout.  The older heroes left the world to rot thinking "darn, if even Superman couldn't handle this new world of crap, how could I" moreso than "the star that I follow has set, I cannot carry on and will fade away".  

I'm using too many words, almost a sure sign that I'm not saying this right, but I hope you get the gist. :)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 11, 2005, 03:26:42 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
How much of the creative process of a book is reliant on fans accepting it vs the publishers/creators/etc.?


I don't really know what that means, sorry.  Fans don't get input on the process.  They can accept or reject the results, but most readers probably don't know whether a book is plot-style or full-script, whether the editor asked for the ending to be changed, whether the artist drew what was written or reworked it...

kdb


Please let me clarify.

If the fan community has a very negative or positive reaction to something published, doesn't that influence whether the creative teams and/or publishers continue with that idea or not?

For instance, mutants are very big at Marvel.  Surely that concept is being mined to death as a result.

If fan reaction to Hypertime seems to be very negative, it does seem to be just a bit of a coincidence that no one else at DC has decided to revisit the concept.  Superman being longhaired, while relatively minor, was eventually done away with since it had such a high rejection rate amongst fans.

I don't care how great the idea is.  If the fans literally don't buy into it, then the publisher tends to do a backpeddle on it or ignore it.  Hey, Byrne's attempted rework of the Hulk's origin was so badly received that Marvel had to backpeddle on that one in a hurry.

So, yeah, fans do have some input if only as part of the marketing feedback process.

I guess my question better worded is how much do creators consider what they think will sell their books as opposed to just writing the best darn good stories they can think of?  The two aren't necessarily the same esp. given that subjective element noted before.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 11, 2005, 03:32:47 PM
Uncle Mxy, thinking he's the last and best guy for the job is very different from thinking he's an inspiration to everyone else.  The two concepts are very different from each other.

You can be the best darn computer programmer in the world and still be largely uninfluential, uninspiring, and even downright despised.  The same goes for super-heroes.  Batman is clearly supposed to be one of the most competent and capable guys in the heroic community.  Yet, he certainly is not inspiring in anyway to even his own community: He's feared instead.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 11, 2005, 04:29:42 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
If the fan community has a very negative or positive reaction to something published, doesn't that influence whether the creative teams and/or publishers continue with that idea or not?


Sure, of course.  In the most naked example of that, POWER COMPANY #45 ain't coming out this month.

Quote
I guess my question better worded is how much do creators consider what they think will sell their books as opposed to just writing the best darn good stories they can think of?


That's another thing that varies from creator to creator and even from job to job.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 12, 2005, 05:26:03 AM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Uncle Mxy, thinking he's the last and best guy for the job is very different from thinking he's an inspiration to everyone else.  The two concepts are very different from each other.

I don't think there's any question that pre-Crisis Superman knew that he was an inspiration to others, even to other heroes.  Look at all the LSH, for crying out loud.  (I'm still trying to decide how post-Crisis Superman is inspirational, but perhaps I'm just recalling one too many bad stories in which he's anything but.)

I don't think it's a "weakness" to not know how much you inspire the masses.  That's rarely an easy thing to know beyond broad terms.  It's almost like saying "Superman's weakness is that he's not a telepath".  

I just never thought the other heroes in Kingdom Come would fade simply because Superman stops being this postiive guiding light.  There were lots of other reasons for them to fade, though, and maybe some off-panel ones we never saw.  Superman's effect on others that led to the others fading away was not critical to getting to the story at hand.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kuuga on October 12, 2005, 11:10:13 AM
Kurt, do you think that comics will ever pull out of this obsession with dark gruesome storylines and cheap shock value that have been more or less the norm for so long?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 12, 2005, 11:55:28 AM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
The sad part is that this is better than having Manhunters in Smallville brainwashing the whole town.


Got that right, Uncle Mxy.

As long as Byrne stayed away from the Guardians, GLC, and the Manhunters, his origin in MOS could somehow ignore them and imply they just weren't aware of the situation on Krypton (hey, it's a big universe and they don't catch everything).  Surely, Maggin's explanation for their lack of involvement cannot apply anymore, not only since this is Post Crisis but Byrned Krypton didn't have that wonderful human freedom and initiative that Tomar-Re had to operate in secret.

Once these three GL-related groups were dragged in via the Millenium tie-in, that begs the question why the Guardians expended such efforts for a single mere baby Kryptonian while allowing the rest of his race and even planet to perish.

It just doesn't track.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 12, 2005, 12:24:16 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
The point of these examples is that at times, Superman resists magic due to some instance when he is no longer thinking about the effects on his body.

The problem with this is that it doesn't explain those times where he has no particular reason to believe something is magical until after it hurt him, like Diana's sword and any number of things where Superman says something like "ouch, must be magic" after the fact.  Perhaps that could be explained as "magic still hurts him a little, but the fact that he feels that it's magic means it could hurt him more makes him hurt more", but that can get convoluted.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 12, 2005, 12:31:23 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
The point of these examples is that at times, Superman resists magic due to some instance when he is no longer thinking about the effects on his body.

The problem with this is that it doesn't explain those times where he has no particular reason to believe something is magical until after it hurt him, like Diana's sword and any number of things where Superman says something like "ouch, must be magic" after the fact.  Perhaps that could be explained as "magic still hurts him a little, but the fact that he feels that it's magic means it could hurt him more makes him hurt more", but that can get convoluted.


That comment isn't actually mine but probably Knightshifter's or Wakanda's from that site.

My own position is that magic obviously is different in a mysterious way from conventional science, perhaps in the spirit of Clarke's Law.  Sure, he doesn't have to be aware it's magickal for it to affect him since he'll still experience the same mysterious/mystical forces.  Whether he's aware of it or not, it's still outside his comprehension and acceptance.

But give him a fatal encounter situation and he inevitably survives and does so with a whole body and soul.  That does suggest his survival instinct kicks in for those instances.

(Of course, in the real world, script immunity is the true root cause of his surviving those uber-magickal encounters.)  :lol:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 12, 2005, 01:23:33 PM
Quote from: "Kuuga"
Kurt, do you think that comics will ever pull out of this obsession with dark gruesome storylines and cheap shock value that have been more or less the norm for so long?


No idea.  I hate to keep giving "it all depends" answers, but everybody's got a different threshold for what they consider obsession, dark, gruesome and cheap.  So there might come a point where I think things are delightful and you hate 'em, or vice versa.

The one thing we can all count on is that the major publishers will do more of whatever succeeds, so if readers start buying upbeat whimsy in large numbers, then there'll be a lot more of it.

For my part, I hope for variety -- I like dark and gruesome stuff when it's well done, and I like light and sunny stuff when it's well done, too.  So I want both, and more besides.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 12, 2005, 01:40:40 PM
Kurt,

Any news on the companion piece to Superman: SI that you can share?

(and if you answer with "it depends", I will force you to say your name backwards!)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 12, 2005, 02:17:32 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Kurt,

Any news on the companion piece to Superman: SI that you can share?


Ti Sdneped!

It's under way, actually, and looking good, but it won't be announced until it's a lot closer to done.

I will have another DC-related announcement somewhere in about a month, though...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kuuga on October 12, 2005, 03:36:04 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"

No idea.  I hate to keep giving "it all depends" answers, but everybody's got a different threshold for what they consider obsession, dark, gruesome and cheap.  So there might come a point where I think things are delightful and you hate 'em, or vice versa.

The one thing we can all count on is that the major publishers will do more of whatever succeeds, so if readers start buying upbeat whimsy in large numbers, then there'll be a lot more of it.

For my part, I hope for variety -- I like dark and gruesome stuff when it's well done, and I like light and sunny stuff when it's well done, too.  So I want both, and more besides.

kdb


Thank you for answering. I appreciate it. I should have made my question more specific in that I was refering to the superhero genre  rather than comics as a whole. I think in comics as a medium theres room for darn near everything for everybody.

With superheroes I don't think it has to be a choice between whimsy and darkness. It seems like whenever someone voices an objection to the glut of darkfic and shock value stuff on the stand people naturally assume that you're calling for a verbatum return of the Silver Age. I don't think that a spirit of adventure, action with heroes who are good and true that can appeal to both children and adults alike is something limited to a certain era.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 12, 2005, 03:46:09 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
I will have another DC-related announcement somewhere in about a month, though...

kdb


Oh, goody!

From that, I think we can safely assume Mr. Busiek will be gracing us with more DC stories.

While this is more wishing than based on the facts, maybe he'll even be on a Superman book or project. (No, I'm not asking you for unfair spoiler info, Kurt.)

It's just an odd coincidence that he started slumming with us a short while before he's going to make that announcement.  Naaah, I'm just grasping at straws ...


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 12, 2005, 04:06:04 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
It's just an odd coincidence that he started slumming with us a short while before he's going to make that announcement.  Naaah, I'm just grasping at straws ...


That was more a matter of Google introducing Google Blog Search, and me doing a search on "busiek."

This isn't a blog, but for whatever reason, Google included it...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 12, 2005, 05:55:10 PM
Kurt,



Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
That was more a matter of Google introducing Google Blog Search, and me doing a search on "busiek."



This isn't a blog, but for whatever reason, Google included it...


It's picking up on superman.nu's RSS feed, which things besides blogs can have, and which its FAQ says it's keying in on.  I noticed that in searching for myself (well. my "secret identity") a couple weeks ago.  I suspect that Google will need to refine the heuristics depending on how many non-blog uses for RSS/Atom feeds become popular.  



Will the project you're announcing in a month or so take place in the mainstream DCU?



Heck, with Infinite Crisis, will there be a mainstream DCU in a month?  :)  Will this upcoming project be tied into IC or 52 at all?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 12, 2005, 06:56:57 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Will the project you're announcing in a month or so take place in the mainstream DCU?

Heck, with Infinite Crisis, will there be a mainstream DCU in a month?  :)  Will this upcoming project be tied into IC or 52 at all?


I'd just as soon not give hints, sorry.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 12, 2005, 08:30:41 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
I'd just as soon not give hints, sorry.

Oh well...   was worth a try.  Thanks for the info you've provided thus far, and thanks in general, really.  

I can assume DC-wrelated means "DC" DC, and not Wildstorm/Vertigo/etc., though?  Heck, Astro City could be loosely defined as DC-related.  :)  

(Speaking of which, I am going off to the comic book store to buy Astro City: Local Heroes TPB and PS238 Volume 2 about 5 seconds after I click "Submit"....)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on October 12, 2005, 08:45:32 PM
Quote
Heck, Astro City could be loosely defined as DC-related.


I hope not. DC has screwed enough creators, lets not add Kurt to that list, I thought we all liked him?  :wink:

Quote
I can assume DC-wrelated means "DC" DC, and not Wildstorm/Vertigo/etc., though?


I am sure he will let everyone know as soon as he can. The last thing he wants to do is start hyping something then later it gets cancelled.

There is a certain famous movie director who always talks about films he is just thinking about, but never ends up doing, now his fans never trust his word, and no one wants to be like that.

You can start another thread for Astro City at the Super Friends board here.

I think this one has run it's course.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 12, 2005, 09:09:02 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
I can assume DC-related means "DC" DC, and not Wildstorm/Vertigo/etc., though?


Sure, why not?

Quote
Speaking of which, I am going off to the comic book store to buy Astro City: Local Heroes TPB and PS238 Volume 2 about 5 seconds after I click "Submit"....)


Hope you like it!

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Rugal 3:16 on October 13, 2005, 06:40:21 AM
Kurt..

How do you feel the Post-Crisis Superman compares to the Pre-Crisis one in terms of being a "Success", Do you think the old-pre-reboot one would have worked today (because business-wise, marketing a character for just a target market i.e. Pre/Post-crisis fans is IMO not a smart thing to do unless it has an "X-Men-Uber-large" fanbase) or does the Post-crisis version really fit better with today's world. Of course you don't have to openly say you prefer something better, but just your thoughts.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 13, 2005, 09:09:07 AM
Hi Kurt,

You mentioned earlier in passing that sometimes artists might do something not quite what the writer specified.

Which artists do you think best capture your intentions on a book?

Which artists have you found that were adding more value to your work and tended to collaborate more with you in the creative process?

Have any artists gone so far from your intent that you'd rather not work with them again?  Can you name them?

Which artists do you think would work best if you were writing a Superman story?  Does that depend on the kind of story?  Can you see yourself writing different kinds of Superman stories (comedic, cosmic, urban crime, etc.)?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 13, 2005, 11:47:39 AM
Quote from: "Rugal 3:16"
How do you feel the Post-Crisis Superman compares to the Pre-Crisis one in terms of being a "Success", Do you think the old-pre-reboot one would have worked today (because business-wise, marketing a character for just a target market i.e. Pre/Post-crisis fans is IMO not a smart thing to do unless it has an "X-Men-Uber-large" fanbase) or does the Post-crisis version really fit better with today's world. Of course you don't have to openly say you prefer something better, but just your thoughts.


If we're talking financial success, then clearly, the Golden Age Superman is the winner.

But I have no real idea if the pre-Crisis Superman would have worked today, better or worse than the post-Crisis one.  It would all depend on how well the books were done.

I will say that I think the biggest loss in the post-Crisis Superman is that great parade introducing Supergirl to the world, and the biggest gain is the Kents being alive.  But I doubt either has anything to do with success or failure with a wide audience -- they're just personal reactions.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 13, 2005, 11:57:34 AM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
You mentioned earlier in passing that sometimes artists might do something not quite what the writer specified.

Which artists do you think best capture your intentions on a book?


Depends on the book.  I think Neil Vokes did a wonderful job on JONNY DEMON, but wouldn't have been appropriate on MARVELS, while Alex Ross did a great job on MARVELS but wouldn't have brought JONNY DEMON to life the way Neil did.

Different books have different intentions.

Quote
Which artists have you found that were adding more value to your work and tended to collaborate more with you in the creative process?


Those are two different questions, of course.  And the range of collaboration is wide -- with Alex on MARVELS and Brent on ASTRO CITY, they not only worked (or work) from a full script, but I got to see the page layouts and make suggestions: Shift this character to the left, change the angle, whatever.  On AVENGERS, George simply drew the story from my plot with very little contact, restaging and repacing as he saw fit, and I'd get the finished pages to dialogue from.  Both turned out to be very effective collaborations, but I doubt it'd work as well to swap the working methods.

My basic rule of thumb is: Change the working method on any job to do what'll make the best comics, rather than bringing the same method to each job, regardless of the results.

The two artists who've come closest to delivering what was in my head when I plotted the story are James Fry (on an 8-page Iron Man short) and Steve Epting (on our two issues of AVENGERS).  But I've been delighted to work with Alex, Brent, George, Carlos Pacheco, Cary Nord, Tom Grummett and many others, and it involves a wide variety of approaches and different kinds of collaboration.

Quote
Have any artists gone so far from your intent that you'd rather not work with them again?


Yes.

Quote
Can you name them?


I'm not going to, at least.

Quote
Which artists do you think would work best if you were writing a Superman story?  Does that depend on the kind of story?  Can you see yourself writing different kinds of Superman stories (comedic, cosmic, urban crime, etc.)?


I think I rattled off a few names earlier in the thread, but yes, it does depend on what kind of story.  And I could see myself writing quite a variety of stuff, were I to write Superman.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 14, 2005, 04:44:46 PM
Kurt, would you portray Superman as being completely defeated by kryptonite as has classically been the case?

Or would you go with more recent portrayals where he exerts some grey matter and strategic thinking to be at least somewhat effective in a fight with kryptonite involved?

Would you consider introducing new weaknesses?

Without giving away spoilers, have you considered new ways of portraying his classic weaknesses?

How important would the gravitational difference be in your version of Superman? (storywise, natch, not numerically)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 15, 2005, 03:30:19 AM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Kurt, would you portray Superman as being completely defeated by kryptonite as has classically been the case? Or would you go with more recent portrayals where he exerts some grey matter and strategic thinking to be at least somewhat effective in a fight with kryptonite involved?


As I recall, Kryptonite classically weakened him, but there was an effect curve, while red sun radiation shut his powers off like a lightswitch.  I always wondered why, when he felt the first effects of the Kryptonite, he didn't just hoosh it away with what remained of his super-breath.

Quote
Would you consider introducing new weaknesses? Without giving away spoilers, have you considered new ways of portraying his classic weaknesses?


I dunno.  I haven't made up a lot of ground rules for stories I might or might not someday write.  I'd probably do a fair amount of figuring things out when and if they came up in a story.

Quote
How important would the gravitational difference be in your version of Superman? (storywise, natch, not numerically)


What gravitational difference?

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 15, 2005, 10:14:14 AM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
As I recall, Kryptonite classically weakened him, but there was an effect curve, while red sun radiation shut his powers off like a lightswitch.  I always wondered why, when he felt the first effects of the Kryptonite, he didn't just hoosh it away with what remained of his super-breath.

It varied greatly, of course.  Initially, Kryptonite made him very weak so someone could hurt him, but didn't seem to outright kill him all by itself.  Later on, there were sporadic guidelines on what powers left him, vision powers often being the last to go.  I always wondered why he didn't just move out of range at super-speed and deal with the K from a distance.  The first thing to go with K exposure was the self-preservation instinct.  :)

Kurt, would the public knowledge that Superman has a secret identity be something you'd want if you were writing a contemporary story?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 15, 2005, 12:04:27 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Kurt, would the public knowledge that Superman has a secret identity be something you'd want if you were writing a contemporary story?


Offhand, I don't really know.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 17, 2005, 09:49:37 AM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
How important would the gravitational difference be in your version of Superman? (storywise, natch, not numerically)


What gravitational difference?

kdb


I'm assuming you're not being funny here.

I'm talking about the gravitational difference between Krypton and Earth.  Wolfman reintroduced it in both his History of the DC Universe and an early issue of Adventures of Superman.  It's been referenced off and on throughout the Post Crisis era and even the editor had mentioned it in a lettercol of the Infestation storyline.

More recently, Waid stated definitively in Birthright that Earth's gravity is 0.03 of Krypton standard gravity. (This is a curious coincidence since my own calculations -- posted before on the internet years ago -- put it at 0.0286 which makes Waid's figure mine rounded to decimal places.)

So, what's your take on this?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 17, 2005, 12:09:32 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
I'm talking about the gravitational difference between Krypton and Earth.  Wolfman reintroduced it in both his History of the DC Universe and an early issue of Adventures of Superman.  It's been referenced off and on throughout the Post Crisis era and even the editor had mentioned it in a lettercol of the Infestation storyline.

More recently, Waid stated definitively in Birthright that Earth's gravity is 0.03 of Krypton standard gravity. (This is a curious coincidence since my own calculations -- posted before on the internet years ago -- put it at 0.0286 which makes Waid's figure mine rounded to decimal places.)

So, what's your take on this?


I seem to remember the idea going back to the early origins, maybe even back to Siegel and Shuster, but it always struck me as just a contextual detail, and not anything that really affected the stories.

In what ways was the gravitational difference more than just part of a handy-if-scientifically-shaky way of justifying some of Superman's powers?

In any case, were I writing Superman, I couldn't tell you ahead of time how I'd handle it, aside from that I don't see a reason to throw it out, but I don't imagine it would need to come up a lot, either.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: ShinDangaioh on October 17, 2005, 02:55:54 PM
I've always thought Superman was vulnerable to gravitational effects, so someone like the anime character Iczer-1 who uses an energy blade composed of gravitational energy would have a field day with Superman until Supes figured out a way to deal with it.

It would give a bit of variety over magic and kryptonite for a weakness.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: DakotaSmith on October 17, 2005, 04:13:49 PM
I think it would make sense for Supes to have some gravitational weaknesses.  I've thought that if he and Starboy were to duke it out, for example, Starboy ought to be able to get some kind of advantage by being able to transform Supes' local gravitational field to, oh, a hundred gees or so, and pin him to the spot.

It might not stop his vision powers, but a hundred gees should put a crimp in his flight and super-strength abilities.

Dakota Smith


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on October 17, 2005, 05:24:13 PM
Quote from: "DakotaSmith"
I think it would make sense for Supes to have some gravitational weaknesses.  I've thought that if he and Starboy were to duke it out, for example, Starboy ought to be able to get some kind of advantage by being able to transform Supes' local gravitational field to, oh, a hundred gees or so, and pin him to the spot.

It might not stop his vision powers, but a hundred gees should put a crimp in his flight and super-strength abilities.

Dakota Smith


There is a Jack Kriby Jimmy O story in which Superman fights gravity monsters and has a loty of trouble with them, actually he was in deep trouble, until he was saved.

They were Darkseid's baddies called Gravi-Guards.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 17, 2005, 09:12:45 PM
I like to think the gravity differences get Superman to Action Comics #1 "leap .125 mile" levels, and the yellow sun takes him the rest of the way.

On a completely unrelated note -- Kurt, what's your favorite Red K effect?  Green K was overused to the point of silliness in pre-Crisis, but I really did like the Red K stories.  That's something I hope a new writer of Superman could introduce more of.  You see Red K in L&C and Smallville, but writers tend to make it have mental effects (getting "high", turning into a slacker), probably because it's cheaper.  I miss the more-bizarre stuff, the variety.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 17, 2005, 11:44:32 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
On a completely unrelated note -- Kurt, what's your favorite Red K effect?


I can't say I remember a whole lot -- Julie Schwartz didn't use the stuff anywhere near as often as Mort, and it's the Julie stuff that has always drawn my interest.

But it's hard to compete with the ant-head effect.  That was red-K, right?

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: MatterEaterLad on October 17, 2005, 11:53:14 PM
Yes, yes it was... 8)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 18, 2005, 12:16:39 AM
(http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/97/400/97_4_0000296.jpg)

BZZ-BZZ!

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on October 18, 2005, 06:50:58 AM
The funny thing about the red k super ants yarn is that it appeared word for word in the sunday Superman strip drawn by Wayne Boring months before.

Yes Im a sucker for giant mummy ants. :wink:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 18, 2005, 10:29:42 AM
Quote from: "DakotaSmith"
I think it would make sense for Supes to have some gravitational weaknesses.  I've thought that if he and Starboy were to duke it out, for example, Starboy ought to be able to get some kind of advantage by being able to transform Supes' local gravitational field to, oh, a hundred gees or so, and pin him to the spot.

It might not stop his vision powers, but a hundred gees should put a crimp in his flight and super-strength abilities.

Dakota Smith


Got that right, DakotaSmith, and it was actually used in a number of stories.

Off the top of my head ...

Geo-Force once increased gravity on Superman to make a fight between them more even.

Merlyn, the archer (a nemesis of Green Arrow), used a heavy-grav inducing arrow stuck to Superman's chest to pin him to the ground and out of action.

E-2 Alexei Luthor used high-G cables duplicating Krypton's gravity to trap Superman and drag him across the universe into a black hole trap.

Momentus (aka Asa Esaak -- DC's homage to Isaac Asimov) used his control of gravity to get the better of Superman.

Brainiac's computer world had trapped Superman with high-G devices.

Star Boy once downed a crazed Mon-El by duplicating Daxam's gravity on him with his power. (Mon had been driven nuts by Lady Memory using his 1,000 years of memories to overwhelm the poor guy.)

IMHO, while Superman could normally lift things far heavier than 100 x his own weight, if it's a Krypton-specific-level grav field, his physiology is keyed to depower physically just as the specific radiation signature of Krypton's red sun depowers his solar-based powers.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 18, 2005, 10:58:31 AM
Kurt, what is your take on death in comics and the resurrection of dead characters?

Would you do such a return from the dead story?

Or would you rather use a variant like a relative or someone taking up the mantle of the deceased character instead?

What are your thoughts on how Superman was killed and revived?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 18, 2005, 11:41:54 AM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
IMHO, while Superman could normally lift things far heavier than 100 x his own weight, if it's a Krypton-specific-level grav field, his physiology is keyed to depower physically just as the specific radiation signature of Krypton's red sun depowers his solar-based powers.


I think that Superman deriving powers from only certain values of G force is goofier than deriving powers for certain colors of sunlight.  At least with the red sun, we visually see what's going on, so it works in a comic book.  

I much prefer the notion that there's multiple sources for his abilities (gravity for a little bit, yellow sun for the bulk), so you don't have the dorky "red sun flashlight", which struck me as way way too easy.  Why bother with Kryptonite when you can retrofit a tanning booth?  Heck, I'd prefer the notion that the red sun stuff is nonsense, that the Sun Thrivers live in every red sun and they're the ones sapping Kryptonian powers.

Kurt, do you think that people who obsess about Superman's powers and how they work are weird?  On a related note, do you have Mark Waid's phone number?  :)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 18, 2005, 01:10:18 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Kurt, what is your take on death in comics and the resurrection of dead characters?


Like many things, the good ones are good, the ones that aren't ain't.

There's no invariable rule -- it's all case by case.

Quote
Would you do such a return from the dead story?


Well, I brought back Wonder Man, helped bring back Hellcat, was a key player (albeit at a distance) in the return of Jean Grey...

Quote
Or would you rather use a variant like a relative or someone taking up the mantle of the deceased character instead?


I've done that, too.

Quote
What are your thoughts on how Superman was killed and revived?


While I might quibble here and there with the choreography (I have a hard time believing Superman can have that big a problem with someone who can't fly, no matter how strong they are, for instance),  I thought it was an involving and effective story and DC got an amazing amount of mileage out of it, both in terms of the story itself and its repercussions.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 18, 2005, 01:13:00 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Kurt, do you think that people who obsess about Superman's powers and how they work are weird?


Of course not.  The words "crazy sick lunatic" merely pop into my mind by sheer coincidence.  Coincidence, I tell you!

Quote
On a related note, do you have Mark Waid's phone number?  :)


I am not cleared to confirm or deny that information, Senator.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 18, 2005, 01:33:00 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
IMHO, while Superman could normally lift things far heavier than 100 x his own weight, if it's a Krypton-specific-level grav field, his physiology is keyed to depower physically just as the specific radiation signature of Krypton's red sun depowers his solar-based powers.


I think that Superman deriving powers from only certain values of G force is goofier than deriving powers for certain colors of sunlight.  At least with the red sun, we visually see what's going on, so it works in a comic book.  

I much prefer the notion that there's multiple sources for his abilities (gravity for a little bit, yellow sun for the bulk), so you don't have the dorky "red sun flashlight", which struck me as way way too easy.  Why bother with Kryptonite when you can retrofit a tanning booth?  Heck, I'd prefer the notion that the red sun stuff is nonsense, that the Sun Thrivers live in every red sun and they're the ones sapping Kryptonian powers.

Kurt, do you think that people who obsess about Superman's powers and how they work are weird?  On a related note, do you have Mark Waid's phone number?  :)


We aren't supposed to 'see' his X-ray vision or heat vision beams but comics do portray those for us to 'see'.  We're not supposed to 'see' the magnetism of Cosmic Boy or Magneto but artistic license shows us those in pics that would be truly invisible to the characters in the fictional worlds.  Showing a grav effect is exactly along the same artistic license lines.

Superman: Last Son of Earth, while an Elseworlds, clearly is another take on the Byrned era of Superman.  That is obviously Byrned Krypton and it has a high gravity.  Clark/Kal on Earth operates at Action Comics #1 levels due to his adaptation to Krypton's environment.  So, yes, the books do have some support for the AC #1 position.

OTOH, many Pre Crisis tales show Superman's powers being halved or otherwise curtailed by high-G attacks, esp. those duplicating or exceeding Krypton's gravity.  It does seem based on the books the K-gravity was a magical number the way things are portrayed.

It must be noted in the real world that some things have specific values where an effect is triggered.  Green chlorophyll, the most abundant kind and primary pigment in photosynthesis, specifically is keyed to red light so any other kind of light doesn't activate it.  Some kinds of salamander can be triggered to change form at certain temperatures but remain essentially fishlike at others.  A certain pH level is needed for some creatures to live and others live in another pH range.  Current research on immunology shows microgravity suppresses the immune system due to subtle changes in cellular cytoskeletal organization; this could easily be extended to how a specific grav level or range would activate or deactivate Kryptonian physique powers.

What was it the First Doctor (Doctor Who) said?  "There's always a way."

It helps to have a wide and deep understanding of the real world.  As Mister T said, "Stay in school!" :D

Oh, and before I start slinging any 'scientific lightweight' insults (I have been remarkably forgiving on this matter while others have freely insulted those with my mindset on this, btw) around, let me quote what I said before on scientific extrapolation.l

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Yes, let's forget all the brilliant stories from the S.F. greats like Fox and Hamilton that did indeed examine the scientific implications of comics super-heroes.  Let's toss out Flash's aura, vibrating through walls, super-speed time travel, vibrating to invisibility, and Superman's heat vision 'cause they 'just don't make sense'.  Those are examples of brilliant scientific extrapolations from what the powers are about and could possibly do.

I agree with JulianPerez that scientific extrapolation in comics for its own sake is somewhat sterile and useless.  It must be coupled with adding value to the stories (which the above examples abundantly do).

But to disregard scientific extrapolation altogether is sliding much too far into the other extreme.  As abundantly proven by these examples -- which I've posted ad nauseaum -- the great Silver Age writers and the legendary editor, Julius Schwartz, all subscribed to this kind of thinking.  This is, afterall, a site devoted to celebrating the Silver Age.  To denigrate this aspect of it is not in keeping with that spirit.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 18, 2005, 01:57:27 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Superman: Last Son of Earth, while an Elseworlds, clearly is another take on the Byrned era of Superman.  That is obviously Byrned Krypton and it has a high gravity.  Clark/Kal on Earth operates at Action Comics #1 levels due to his adaptation to Krypton's environment.  So, yes, the books do have some support for the AC #1 position.

OTOH, many Pre Crisis tales show Superman's powers being halved or otherwise curtailed by high-G attacks, esp. those duplicating or exceeding Krypton's gravity.  It does seem based on the books the K-gravity was a magical number the way things are portrayed.

I'd like to see Superman tales where it can be plausibly explained that he has different power levels under different conditions.  I'd like to see some John Carter-esque tales where Superman is at AC #1 levels (having been under a red sun for awhile, or having magic cut off his sun-based stuff.)   I'd like to see stories where Superman is stupendously powerful.  It's hard for me to equate "1/2 of pre-Crisis" power levels with anything other than "stupendously powerful".  Half of infinity is what, exactly?  

Quote
It must be noted in the real world that some things have specific values where an effect is triggered.  Green chlorophyll, the most abundant kind and primary pigment in photosynthesis, specifically is keyed to red light so any other kind of light doesn't activate it.  Some kinds of salamander can be triggered to change form at certain temperatures but remain essentially fishlike at others.  A certain pH level is needed for some creatures to live and others live in another pH range.

The same is true for many other chemical reactions.  I had a day job as a chemical engineer at a large chemical company in a past life.  I've had more fun with the slickeriness of sulfuric acid than most, I assure you.  There's lots of things in life that have magic numbers, but...

Quote
Current research on immunology shows microgravity suppresses the immune system due to subtle changes in cellular cytoskeletal organization; this could easily be extended to how a specific grav level or range would activate or deactivate Kryptonian physique powers.

What was it the First Doctor (Doctor Who) said?  "There's always a way."

It helps to have a wide and deep understanding of the real world.  As Mister T said, "Stay in school!" :D

...my argument wasn't so much plausibility, but depictability in a comic sense (which is mostly what I meant when I said "goofy").  It's difficult to denote a specific amount of high G in a comic book context.  It's easier to draw and color that red sun.  And of course, if that's the real weakness, you ask yourself why he doesn't wear gravity boots like he has Jimmy Olsen do when visiting Kandor, or why Kryptonians didn't become super tough once they figured out the magic of gravity boots.  

And as for Mr. T, I just remember the "crazy fool" part and all those gold chains.  I have to avoid Seanbaby's treatises on Mr. T lest I go mad!
http://www.seanbaby.com/stupcom/mrt.htm
http://www.seanbaby.com/stupid/mrt.htm


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 18, 2005, 02:10:24 PM
Touche, Uncle Mxy, and well said, BTW.

My personal take given how the various books have -- inconsistently! -- shown this is:

1) Basic physical grav adaptation accounts for AC #1 level abilities.  That and their genetic and bioengineering of themselves to peak physical levels explains this nicely.

2) A further Kryptonian anti-grav adaptation was evolved since Krypton was so scarce in resources like food.  This ability is normally dampened to just walking around normally on Krypton, but outside their environment it is 'unloosed' much like cancerous growth without limiting factors on it.  That would operate normally around planet moving levels (note that gravity moves all mass/energy equally since its a space-time distortion).  With strain, FTL can be achieved flying but normally sublight is the best that could be achieved (see DCCP story with Chemo and Metal Men).  This anti-grav adaptation is mentioned in AC #500, BTW.  It must be noted in AC #500 that a red sun drained Superman's punches were less powerful than a flick of his solar-boosted finger.

3) The yellow sun triggers the greatest power increase that accounts for the bulk of Kryptonian super-powers, esp. the transrelativistic kind and other apparent violations of physics.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on October 18, 2005, 04:53:02 PM
Quote
Kurt, do you think that people who obsess about Superman's powers and how they work are weird?


Well, I am a mod here and I think it's very weird, by hey, this place just wouldn't be the same without them :)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 18, 2005, 04:55:14 PM
Heh

As Bill Gates said, be nice to geeks.  You'll probably be working for one [of us] one day.

 :lol:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: MatterEaterLad on October 18, 2005, 05:14:32 PM
LOL, next time I'll say its goofy rather than dumb...

But its both (I don't imply dumb toward anyone who is interested in this stuff, its friggin' FUN talking about it)... 8)

I have no problem accepting implausible science fiction, I love the Silver Age as much as the next...

I'm not so sure that travel faster than the speed of light, auras, selective gravities, and hominids with crazy adaptations (I wonder how Supes can fit a focal length for telescopic vision, heat generators, and super hearing inside a human size head -- its tought enough being a multicellular being with nervous, circulatory, and digestive systems, let alone perform cellular respiration on a foreign planet) -- powers that show themselves in far away solar systems that revolve around certain stars have much reality under any scientific scrutiny, or are signs of  a writer's or editors's "genius" (my gawd, these are COMICS :wink:), but they are fun and can make stories better...


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 19, 2005, 10:50:50 AM
Hi Kurt,

I'm curious if your now being a writer and active participant in the comics industry has changed how you enjoy reading comics.

Do you read them with a subtext going on in your head about what might have gone into making the book?

Do you notice interesting plot devices that do or don't work and make mental notes to use or not use them in your own work?

Or can you just kick back and immerse yourself in the book as if you were a kid again?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 19, 2005, 12:48:56 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Hi Kurt,

I'm curious if your now being a writer and active participant in the comics industry has changed how you enjoy reading comics.

Do you read them with a subtext going on in your head about what might have gone into making the book?

Do you notice interesting plot devices that do or don't work and make mental notes to use or not use them in your own work?

Or can you just kick back and immerse yourself in the book as if you were a kid again?


I can far more easily kick back and lose myself in, say, USAGI YOJIMBO than in SPIDER-MAN.  The farther it is away from what I do, the more easily I can be "just a reader."

Otherwise -- yeah, there are things about being a writer that blunt the impact of reading.  I'm happy with the trade-off, though.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on October 19, 2005, 01:32:52 PM
I have a question, more business related.

I know that even a top writer like Alan Moore has a day job that actually pays the bills.

Can someone actually make a living just writing comics? Do you have a day job? If you do, what is it?

In general how much do comic writers actual make a year from comics?
You don't have to say how much you make, if you think that is too personal, you can just say on average.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 19, 2005, 01:50:16 PM
Super Monkey had some great questions which reminds me of this golden opportunity to resolve my own related question.

Do all writers, artists, etc. get paid the same going rate?  Or does their past rep and quality of work determine that pay scale?

I don't need any actual numbers just an idea of whether Joe stinks writer or artist makes less than Victor Spectacular writer or artist.

I've long suspected that the top notch guys get paid the most.  This is my chance to find out if that's so.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 19, 2005, 02:04:14 PM
On the theory that _someone_ ought to be asking Superman-specific questions for Kurt on a Superman board...

Kurt,

1) Why doesn't Superman have a GL ring?

2) What should Pete Ross do when he grows up?

3) Is Lang a Chinese name?

4) Has Jimmy Olsen sued Tucker Carlson for impersonating him?  

5) Which real-life person was Bizarro based upon?

6) What is the airspeed of an unladen Superman in flight?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 19, 2005, 02:05:53 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
I have a question, more business related.

I know that even a top writer like Alan Moore has a day job that actually pays the bills.


Really?  I find that hard to believe.

Quote
Can someone actually make a living just writing comics? Do you have a day job? If you do, what is it?


Many people make a living just writing comics.  I've been a full-time writer since September 1990, and I worry more about meeting the deadlines than paying the mortgage.

Quote
In general how much do comic writers actual make a year from comics?
You don't have to say how much you make, if you think that is too personal, you can just say on average.


I have no idea what the average is, but even if we knew what it was, it'd be a meaningless number, like figuring out what the average novelist makes.  There is no "average novelist salary" in the sense that there's, say, an "average Q/A overseer salary."  Writers are freelancers, and their compensation varies widely both due to how popular they are and how much they turn out.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 19, 2005, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Do all writers, artists, etc. get paid the same going rate?


No.

Quote
Or does their past rep and quality of work determine that pay scale?


Popularity, rather than quality, is the key.  Guys who sell a lot of books get offered higher page rates.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 19, 2005, 02:13:11 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Or does their past rep and quality of work determine that pay scale?


Popularity, rather than quality, is the key.  Guys who sell a lot of books get offered higher page rates.

kdb


Cool.  Then Carlos Meglia (*blecch!*) would -- and should! -- be paid less than van Scriver or Ross if they did a Superman book.  Surely, Meglia's kindergarten-kid-on-acid style is nowhere near as popular as the likes of Ross.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 19, 2005, 02:15:48 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
1) Why doesn't Superman have a GL ring?


He's not engaged to Green Lantern.

Quote
2) What should Pete Ross do when he grows up?


I'm thinking "former President" is the color of his parachute.

Quote
3) Is Lang a Chinese name?


My wife says it's Scandinavian.  Wing Fo Lang, though, disagrees.

Quote
4) Has Jimmy Olsen sued Tucker Carlson for impersonating him?


The true reason for the cancellation of Crossfire!  

Quote
5) Which real-life person was Bizarro based upon?


Mort Weisinger always played it coy.  Francisco Pizarro?  Camille Pisarro?  No man can say!

Quote
6) What is the airspeed of an unladen Superman in flight?


Would that be an African or European Superman?

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 19, 2005, 02:18:21 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
6) What is the airspeed of an unladen Superman in flight?


Would that be an African or European Superman?

kdb


LOL  Someone's been watching "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".

 :lol:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 19, 2005, 02:23:11 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Cool.  Then Carlos Meglia (*blecch!*) would -- and should! -- be paid less than van Scriver or Ross if they did a Superman book.  Surely, Meglia's kindergarten-kid-on-acid style is nowhere near as popular as the likes of Ross.


In America, at least.  I first encountered Meglia's work when his CYBERSIX was nominated for Best Foreign Album at Angouleme, the same year MARVELS was.  Neither of us won, but I'm guessing he sells pretty well in Europe and South America (he's Argentinian).

I think he's an amazing talent, and would love to work with him someday.  Not on Superman, though.

Keep in mind, though, as you're celebrating the idea that Ethan Van Sciver gets paid better than artists whose work you don't enjoy -- it's true of popular artists you hate and unpopular ones you like, too.  Rob Liefeld gets paid better than Curt Swan ever did, and Michael Turner probably out-earns Jerry Ordway.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 19, 2005, 02:51:45 PM
Point well taken, Kurt.

My own suspicion is the bean-counters at the publishers will invest in popular, high-priced talent to kindle or revive interest in a book, then when the book seems to be doing well, they'll put low-budget talent on it to save the bucks and hope they can coast on the rep of the previous good talent to rub off on the lesser ones.  We've seen it on the Superman books and Superman, by virtue of his place in comics history and visibility, tends to get the dregs of the talent shuffle.

Hey, wasn't that the marketing philosophy of that guy who nearly bankrupted Marvel?  He refused to pay the talent thinking the characters sold themselves so creators were irrelevant.  Welcome to Image, guys.

IMHO


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 19, 2005, 03:02:45 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
My own suspicion is the bean-counters at the publishers will invest in popular, high-priced talent to kindle or revive interest in a book, then when the book seems to be doing well, they'll put low-budget talent on it to save the bucks and hope they can coast on the rep of the previous good talent to rub off on the lesser ones.


The bean-counters don't make those decisions.  And I've never once heard of a publisher deciding that a book is selling, so let's slash the budget.

Quote
We've seen it on the Superman books and Superman, by virtue of his place in comics history and visibility, tends to get the dregs of the talent shuffle.


I don't think this is true either.  Whatever era of Superman you're thinking of, you may not have liked the creators working on them, but be they Joe Kelly, Roger Sterm, Greg Rucka or whomever, they weren't considered the dregs by any stretch, and weren't being paid bargain rates.

Quote
Hey, wasn't that the marketing philosophy of that guy who nearly bankrupted Marvel?


No.  The Image guys were extremely well paid.  Their beef seemed to me to be more about control, respect and ancillary rights (like, say, getting a share of the money from a Spider-Man T-shirt featuring their art) than about page rate or publishing royalties.

Quote
He refused to pay the talent thinking the characters sold themselves so creators were irrelevant.


Not true on at least a couple of counts -- first, the decision to promote the characters rather than the creators had nothing whatsoever to do with bankrupting Marvel, and during that period, top talent was paid insanely well.  And I don't think the decision was made by Perlman.

What bankrupted Marvel was corporate finance outside the realm of publishing -- publishing made a profit the whole time, but Marvel was unable to service debt saddled on them by unwise purchases of other companies.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kuuga on October 19, 2005, 03:42:03 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Or does their past rep and quality of work determine that pay scale?


Popularity, rather than quality, is the key.  Guys who sell a lot of books get offered higher page rates.

kdb


Cool.  Then Carlos Meglia (*blecch!*) would -- and should! -- be paid less than van Scriver or Ross if they did a Superman book.  Surely, Meglia's kindergarten-kid-on-acid style is nowhere near as popular as the likes of Ross.


I'm not a fan of Meguilas artwork, I agree he pushes it too far but at the same time I've never been able to abide prejudice against "cartoony" artsyles. The kind of scorn that Ed McGuiness's work got when he did Superman (you'd think the guy had never been drawn with squinty eyes before) or Mike Weringo just boggles my mind. Though that's not to say I don't have my own preferences. I've posted before about how I think Lenil Yus work was just an ill fit for Birthright. But at the same time if I try to say Lenil Yu shouldn't draw Superman that opens the door to say that guys like Ed and Mike are off limits.

I do think some consideration should be given for the purpose, tone and goal of the project. Yus layouts were good for Birthright but his figure drawing style and shading would seem to suit a much darker kind of story.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 19, 2005, 03:46:55 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
6) What is the airspeed of an unladen Superman in flight?


Would that be an African or European Superman?



LOL  Someone's been watching "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".

:lol:


As you've probably figured out by now, it was part of a nefarious plot to get Kurt to expose secret DC information he didn't want us to know!  Of course, we all knew there was an African Superman, back when Priest outed him as Eddie Murphy's Wakandan bodyguard in the movie Coming To America. reprinted in Black Panther #300.  (IIRC, African Superman is currently playing basketball for the Miami Heat.)  But European Superman is new!  I have a hunch this additional Superman will figure prominently in Impotent Crisis, and we heard it here first on superman.nu!  Awesome!



So, what's the name of the Fifth Dimension's equivalent to Arkham, again?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Gary on October 19, 2005, 04:09:02 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
So, what's the name of the Fifth Dimension's equivalent to Arkham, again?


That would be the entire Fifth Dimension.

They probably send you here if you're suspected of being sane.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on October 19, 2005, 05:16:00 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
I have a question, more business related.

I know that even a top writer like Alan Moore has a day job that actually pays the bills.


Really?  I find that hard to believe.


here is a quote:

Quote
Lying In The Gutters reports that Alan Moore, author of such extraordinary comics like V For Vendetta, Watchmen, From Hell, League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Top Ten and Promethea is hopping mad at Warner Brothers and he isn’t going to take it anymore.

Moore has choosen to publically disassociate himself from the movie adaptation of V for Vendetta, which the Wachowski brothers are "writing" and producing, and disputes claims of support made by Joel Silver. In retaliation, he has also pulled the League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen comic book series from Warner owned DC Comics, and is handing it to two small press publishers in the US and the UK.

Earlier in the year, Moore received a call from "V For Vendetta" writer/producer and "Matrix" director Larry Wachowski, but told him politely, "I didn’t want anything to do with films and had no time this year, being in the middle of work, my day job, writing, I wasn’t interested in Hollywood."

Shortly afterwards, Alan Moore was made aware of a press release sent out covering a press conference producer Joel Silver and the cast had held.

In this press release, Joel Silver, as well as announcing that the release date November the 5th 2005 was the 100th anniversary of Guy Fawkes attempt on Parliament, instead of the 400th anniversary, also said of Alan, "he was very excited about what Larry had to say and Larry sent the script, so we hope to see him sometime before we’re in the UK. We’d just like him to know what we’re doing and to be involved in what we’re trying to do together"

Alan felt, basically, that his name was being used in vain. Not only had he expressed the opposite to Larry, but his endorsement was being used as a selling point for a movie - the reason he’d requested his credit and association be dropped from all of these movies.

It is sad to see Moore’s work being so poorly represented on film, but Hollywood’s inability to make good stories is one reason that the comic book industry is still thriving.

It is also worth noting that Moore has been forsaking his option money for and distributing it to the other creators of the original comics who otherwise would not be getting anything from Hollywood.

And on a final note here is how good Moore felt about finally severing his ties with DC:

Alan told me that as a result of finally and permanently splitting from DC, he’s has a general feeling of elation. He feels good about himself, as if a weight has been lifted. Earlier reports I’d had from the past two weeks were that his temper was high, but speaking to him found the same calm, serene gentlemen I’d met on and off over the last ten years.

And in this spirit of bonhomie, Alan Moore decided to propose to his longterm girlfriend and co-creator of Lost Girls, Melinda Gebbie. She accepted and they have announced their engagement.

Sounds like he came out ahead on this one.



So unless I misread that, and he meant that writing was his day job, then, never mind, LOL. I knew that sounded queer that he would have a day job, but comic sales being down and all, you never know, you know a lot more than me, since it's your job and all :)

I read that quote months ago quickly, so I remembered it differently.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 19, 2005, 05:28:20 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
So unless I misread that, and he meant that writing was his day job, then, never mind, LOL.


Yeah, he means writing is his day job, rather than making movie deals and cosulting and stuff like that.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on October 19, 2005, 06:33:44 PM
Quote
It is also worth noting that Moore has been forsaking his option money for and distributing it to the other creators of the original comics who otherwise would not be getting anything from Hollywood.


You know that's awesome. It's always great to know that the people that you are fans of, are really great people as well.

Obviously if he is giving his money away, he doesn't have any money issues.

Also, thank you again Mr. Busiek for answering so many questions, even the really silly ones ;)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 24, 2005, 01:23:49 PM
Kurt,

Should there be circumstances in which Superman kills someone?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 24, 2005, 10:56:03 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Kurt,

Should there be circumstances in which Superman kills someone?


I think there could be, but they'd be drastic indeed.

Should be?  Depends on if they'd make for a good story, and if people want to tell it.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 27, 2005, 12:27:11 AM
Kurt,

Iron Man used to be tied to the Korean War but was later updated to the Vietnam War to keep him contemporary.

Superman has been updated every decade or so both in subtle ways and in outright reworkings of the character to keep him contemporary.

You've mentioned about this subtle updating process yourself in regards to continuity earlier in this thread.

One team that's been glaringly neglected in this regard is the JSA.  They seem inextricably tied to WW2 so as the rest of the DCU remains eternally youthful and contemporary, the JSA seems to be inevitably becoming older and older in comparison.  When the two Supermen first fought, only a decade or so separated them in ages so they could legitimately look virtually the same.  As time went on, now the original JSA members are supposed to be well into their senior years.

Would you agree with a revamp or subtle updating of the JSA to tie them to later eras?  How about making them tied to Vietnam nor or the Gulf War?  Must the JSA remain forever bonded to the WW2 era?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 27, 2005, 10:44:15 AM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Should be?  Depends on if they'd make for a good story, and if people want to tell it.

I suppose I think of it in terms of "do people want to read it".

IMO, there are certain types of stories that shouldn't be told with certain characters.  To tell the story effectively (not an Elseworlds), the character has to go through so much as part of that story that, by the end of the day, their fundamentals change enough that they might as well be some entirely different person sharing the same name.  Even if the story were good, the end result is destructive.  I guess I'd rather see writers invent new characters.  Instead of turning Black Lightning into a white guy who fires black lightning bolts as a permanent change, create a white guy.  You want Superman and Batman to be gay?  Go read Apollo and Midnighter, orf find some pink kryptonite (though I argue that pink K simply turns Superman into a metrosexual :) ).  Some axioms, once undone, can rarely be redone without a total reboot.  Killing would seem to be one of them.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 27, 2005, 01:01:15 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Iron Man used to be tied to the Korean War but was later updated to the Vietnam War to keep him contemporary.


No -- the Korean War had been over for almost a decade by the time Iron Man first appeared.

But your point stands if you rephrase it: Iron Man used to be tied to the Vietnam War but was later updated to eliminate those references to keep him contemporary.

Quote
One team that's been glaringly neglected in this regard is the JSA.  They seem inextricably tied to WW2 so as the rest of the DCU remains eternally youthful and contemporary, the JSA seems to be inevitably becoming older and older in comparison.  When the two Supermen first fought, only a decade or so separated them in ages so they could legitimately look virtually the same.  As time went on, now the original JSA members are supposed to be well into their senior years.

Would you agree with a revamp or subtle updating of the JSA to tie them to later eras?


No.  No more than I'd support the idea of moving Captain America's roots out of WWII.

Quote
How about making them tied to Vietnam nor or the Gulf War?


I think that would change them so utterly that you might as well create a new team.  Vietnam was such a different war, such a different atmosphere.

Quote
Must the JSA remain forever bonded to the WW2 era?


I don't see it as a hardship, but rather as the point.  The contemporary characters get updated to stay contemporary -- but the JSA are the "originals."  Uproot them and contemporize them and they're not the originals any more, they're just another set of contemporary characters, and we already have a lot of those.  Originals are rare, though -- it's what makes those JSAers special.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 27, 2005, 01:17:51 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Should be?  Depends on if they'd make for a good story, and if people want to tell it.

I suppose I think of it in terms of "do people want to read it".


And there's the difference between a writer's perspective and a reader's!

But more seriously -- if nobody wants to tell a particular, but readers want to see it, then I think if you do it anyway odds are you wind up with a bad story.

If somebody wants to tell a story, and the readers aren't interested -- well, maybe if the story is compellingly told, they'll change their minds.

But in general, I think the best way to test whether readers want something or not is to offer it to them.  Provided it's a story someone wants to tell in the first place.

Quote
Some axioms, once undone, can rarely be redone without a total reboot.  Killing would seem to be one of them.


If so, then it's already done.  I tend to think continuity's a bit more plastic than that -- there are readers who refuse to ignore anything no matter how much they don't like it (indeed, some of these guys seem to insist that the stuff they don't like is so important that they'll cling to an interpretation of something that they hate and talk about it endlessly), but I think most readers are more willing to shovel bad ideas under the rug and agree never to speak of them again.

For instance, if the Metal Men started turning up, and Gold was one of them while that green guy wasn't, and Doc was there, and nobody ever mentioned again that they have human brains, I'm confident that most MM fans would breathe a sigh of relief.  There would be some readers who'd keep insisting that this would be violating continuity and it should be explained away somehow and it would color their every reaction to the Metal Men -- but strangely, these would almost all be readers who would rather have Gold in the team and them not have human brains.

Were I writing Superman and thought he should not only never kill but never have killed, I simply wouldn't bring up any past instances where he'd done so, and I'd let readers decide for themselves whether the guy they were reading about in my stories ever had blood on his hands.

But if I had what I thought was a really good idea for a story where Superman killed someone, and I thought it could be done right and was compelling, and DC thought it was good enough that they wanted to do it, then I'd hope enough readers saw it my way to give the story a chance.  But in the end, I've got to use my own judgment -- not only is it what I'm equipped with, it's what I get hired for.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on October 27, 2005, 03:01:52 PM
The Golden Age Superman killed a lot of people before DC realize that most of their readers were children and they had him denounce killing and and even take an oath against killing, going as far as to say that he never killed anyone and never would. The 1st two years were as a result re-conned out. Johnny Red-beard had the current Superman kill as well, after he exposed them to gold K and thus leaving them harmless and defenseless, Superman then the brutally butchered them in cold blood, the idea being that he felt bad afterwards and promised never to kill again, though I don't understand why he had to committed cold hearted murder to figure that one out, but that's just me I guess ;)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 27, 2005, 03:33:22 PM
Thanks for you perspective on the JSA, and indirectly the E-2 Superman, when it comes to updating, Kurt.  While no real 'right' answer exists here, and we're just expressing our opinions, you have the dual statuses of one of the community and visiting 'demigod' as a working writer.  Of course, your opinion has a greater weight. :)

If we keep the JSA tied to WW2 as a necessary core element, that forces us to invent more convoluted ways to make them interact with the contemporary DCU heroes.  Eventually, we might have to make them do the equivalent of the SA Superboy time-travelling to another era to meet the contemporary folks and vice versa.  It just won't be credible in a few decades that the JSA would still be alive or in any shape to fight alongside the youthful JLA; it's stretching it a bit right now.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 27, 2005, 04:11:21 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
If we keep the JSA tied to WW2 as a necessary core element, that forces us to invent more convoluted ways to make them interact with the contemporary DCU heroes.  Eventually, we might have to make them do the equivalent of the SA Superboy time-travelling to another era to meet the contemporary folks and vice versa.  It just won't be credible in a few decades that the JSA would still be alive or in any shape to fight alongside the youthful JLA; it's stretching it a bit right now.


How many of the original JSAers are left?

I think there will come a time when the original JSAers would be limited to time-travel stories and period pieces, but on the one hand, I don't think that's so bad -- I like period pieces, myself -- and on the other, that's already the case for most of them, isn't it?

I think Geoff and crew have been doing a pretty good job in spinning out contemporary successors to the JSA (I particularly like Johnny Thunder as the new Thunderbolt), so there can still be a Dr. Midnite, a Dr. Fate and so on interacting with the modern-day DCU.  They're not the same characters, to be sure, but then, if you contemporized the originals, then they wouldn't be the same characters either, any more than the current Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman are their original selves.

But if you do contemporize the originals, you wind up in the same position as we're in with the Big Three -- you don't have the originals any more.  So I'd rather have Pieter Cross today and Charles McNider in the past, than an altered McNider today and no access to the original version of McNider.

Sure, there are problems if you do it either way, but I think the problem of, say, eventually making Jade into Alan Scott's descendant rather than directly his child is the sort of thing that happens with contemporized characters anyway, even if it's not specifically that.  But not having the originals any more -- that strikes me as the bigger problem.

I'd love to write a mini-series someday about the All-Star Squadron in the days after WWII, coming home to an uncertain world and adjusting once again to peacetime.  I have very little interest in a JSA that formed in the late Fifties and fought in Vietnam.  Those just wouldn't be the characters I know, and they wouldn't be DC's foundational generation any more.

So you're gonna get continuity headaches one way or the other.  I just prefer the ones that come with the original characters in their original context.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on October 27, 2005, 04:52:01 PM
All-Star Squadron was one of my favorite comics as a kid, for less than a dollar, I could read stories with billions of heroes ;)

The art and writing was fun, I sure wish that DC would release the whole run as TPBs.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: MatterEaterLad on October 27, 2005, 05:06:50 PM
Love the idea of the return from WW2, like a "Best Years of Our Lives" for Golden Age heroes...


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 27, 2005, 07:45:38 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
The Golden Age Superman killed a lot of people before DC realize that most of their readers were children and they had him denounce killing and and even take an oath against killing, going as far as to say that he never killed anyone and never would. The 1st two years were as a result re-conned out.

There wasn't strong continuity in those stories, though.  A retcon doesn't mean much when continuity doesn't mean much, where consequences don't follow much from one story to the next.  I alluded to that somewhat when I mentioned not counting Elseworlds.  

Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Were I writing Superman and thought he should not only never kill but never have killed, I simply wouldn't bring up any past instances where he'd done so, and I'd let readers decide for themselves whether the guy they were reading about in my stories ever had blood on his hands.

But not saying something can deaden perfectly good stories down the road.  Suppose, hypothetically speaking, Superman wants to call out Wonder Woman because she murdered a bleeding nose telepath.  If his past killing is unmentioned as part of Supes and WW hashing it out, it's probably not going to be a terribly strong story.  If he states he's never killed anyone, a lot of folks would cry "mind control -- not again!".  And if you simply don't tell that story, then that fundamental isn't really used.

To get to that 'place' where the suspension of disbelief happens, where you're in some other world, I think you need to have some traits that are pretty immutable to latch onto, even if it's a counterpoint to what you're reading.  Most of the Elseworlds work because it's neat to watch those 'immutables' get messed with, but that requires strong characterization.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: MatterEaterLad on October 27, 2005, 08:58:17 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
There wasn't strong continuity in those stories, though.  A retcon doesn't mean much when continuity doesn't mean much, where consequences don't follow much from one story to the next.  I alluded to that somewhat when I mentioned not counting Elseworlds.


Yimminy, the first two years of Siegel and Shuster's Superman compared to Elseworlds?  If those years aren't "canon" then fanboys of whatever era have lost their way...


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 27, 2005, 08:59:38 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
But not saying something can deaden perfectly good stories down the road.


If I were writing the stories, I'd be more concerned with how they work now, and not with whether not referring to stories I didn't care for might have an effect on someone else's stories down the road.  If whoever's writing the story down the road finds it useful to refer back to something that suits their story, they can go ahead.

Quote
Suppose, hypothetically speaking, Superman wants to call out Wonder Woman because she murdered a bleeding nose telepath.  If his past killing is unmentioned as part of Supes and WW hashing it out, it's probably not going to be a terribly strong story.


Why not?  I think I got through all the stuff in THUNDERBOLTS with Hawkeye taking his no-killee-anyone rule seriously, without referring back to anyone Hawkeye's killed.  I don't think it weakened the story -- I think that bringing up the various deaths that are on Hawkeye's conscience and how and why each of them fit his current philosophy would muddy the story, and not change his philosophy any.

Quote
If he states he's never killed anyone, a lot of folks would cry "mind control -- not again!"


I don't think it would be a lot of folks, even if it was germane to the story to have him say such a thing.  But if Superman thinks it's wrong to kill, then, "You killed someone before you came to that concluion" is not a statement that grants other people one freebie.

Quote
And if you simply don't tell that story, then that fundamental isn't really used.


I don't know what that means -- is the only way I can use the concept I outlined by having Superman remonstrate with Wonder Woman over a murder?  I hope not.

Quote
To get to that 'place' where the suspension of disbelief happens, where you're in some other world, I think you need to have some traits that are pretty immutable to latch onto, even if it's a counterpoint to what you're reading.


I think it's possible to do that without needing to refer back to stories in which Superman has killed if I don't want to.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 28, 2005, 09:31:26 AM
I doubt that when Siegel and Shuster were creating the first two years of Superman, they were thinking that it happened in a parallel Earth to the one that their future stories would happen in, or that they were concerned with strong continuity between the stories.  The powers that be long ago deemed those stories to happen in an 'Elseworld' called Earth-2.

As an aside, not having read much of Thunderbolts, the first thing I did when Kurt mentioned it was to do a Google Groups search for "hawkeye thunderbolts", to get a feel for what he might be talking about:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&q=hawkeye+thunderbolts+&qt_s=Search

The VERY first two summaries I got were from whiners:
Quote
And that Hawkeye/Thunderbolts story is often cited as one of many, many examples
of why tighter editorial control is needed - an article at Quarter Bin pointed

Quote
The continuity of Marvel in general - and THUNDERBOLTS in particular - being what
it is, I was wondering what if there were any issues between Hawkeye and the T
 

If I expand the search a little to "hawkeye thunderbolts killing":
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&q=hawkeye+thunderbolts+killing&qt_s=Search

The first hit I get refers to what I think to be Kurt's story:
Quote
I just read Thunderbolts #22. ... Hawkeye replies with those heroes aren't Avengers and
Avengers don't kill ... West he got pissed at Moon Night for killing Taurus and

and 30 posts mostly talking about everyone the Avengers have killed, and the pros and cons of Hawkeye making that argument in light of that past history.  If you read a story and what comes to mind for a lot of folks is others filling in your blanks with discontinuity, is that a strong storytelling point?  I dunno...  haven't read the story, seen the words, etc.  Most of the reviews I skimmed talk about that issue being mostly one big fight with Hercules.

Perhaps the real lesson here is "searching Usenet was bad, as it's loaded with continuity cops" and I completely missed it.  :)  Seriously, Hawkeye having killed someone and not wanting to kill again makes more sense than for Superman.  Hawkeye's a flawed mortal who generally does the right thing and sometimes doesn't...  that's a lot of what makes him "tick" as a character.  Give Hawkeye Superman's powers and he wouldn't work well as either Hawkeye or Superman.  I'd rather see Hawkeye have that argument about killing with Wonder Woman than Superman (at least he'd be alive :) ).

Enough disjointment for one post...


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 28, 2005, 11:44:43 AM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
As an aside, not having read much of Thunderbolts, the first thing I did when Kurt mentioned it was to do a Google Groups search for "hawkeye thunderbolts", to get a feel for what he might be talking about:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&q=hawkeye+thunderbolts+&qt_s=Search

The VERY first two summaries I got were from whiners:


No, they're not.  The second one is from someone looking for story possibilities to discuss.  He's talking about continuity and how it might affect things, not complaining that this stuff hasn't been mentioned.  The first one isn't complaining that we violated Marvel history, either, but that if the Thunderbolts can manage something, why is it that some other characters in other books can't, the sort of thing that's widespread in shared-universe comics.  [And the answer is that different circumstances create different possibilities, and rescuing one soul from the netherworld whose return has already been prophesied does not mean that all souls in hell can be rescued the same way, or even at all.]

Quote
If I expand the search a little to "hawkeye thunderbolts killing":
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&q=hawkeye+thunderbolts+killing&qt_s=Search

The first hit I get refers to what I think to be Kurt's story:
Quote
I just read Thunderbolts #22. ... Hawkeye replies with those heroes aren't Avengers and
Avengers don't kill ... West he got pissed at Moon Night for killing Taurus and

and 30 posts mostly talking about everyone the Avengers have killed, and the pros and cons of Hawkeye making that argument in light of that past history.  If you read a story and what comes to mind for a lot of folks is others filling in your blanks with discontinuity, is that a strong storytelling point?


I think that there are people who like to talk about continuity implications, and that that's not necessarily a bad thing.  If the alternative is to have Hawkeye run down all that information in the story itself, in hopes of preventing people from talking about it online, the result would be a turgid mess -- why would he be analyzing Thunderstrike and Crystal and all, when his point remains the same either way?

Heck, the post you quote mentions justification for Hawkeye's stance being consistent with his earlier characterization; it ain't a complaint.

Would it improve the story for Hawkeye to say "Those guys aren't Avengers and Avengers don't kill?  Or, well, at least they're supposed to try not to?  And when they do I get pissed off at them like I'm pissed off at you?  And the finer points don't matter because we're not talking about a self-defenses killing or a killing to save lives -- you murdered someone for money, which is a leetle bit different, I think we can all agree!"?

No, it'd just clog it up -- it doesn't change the point, it just cakes it with references the story doesn't need.

The fans who like that stuff were perfectly free to talk about it online, which is cool.  The fans who don't care don't have to be bogged down with all that minutiae.

Quote
Hawkeye having killed someone and not wanting to kill again makes more sense than for Superman.  Hawkeye's a flawed mortal who generally does the right thing and sometimes doesn't...  that's a lot of what makes him "tick" as a character.


That's unrelated to the question of whether all that past history needs to be dredged up, though.  If your point is that Superman shouldn't kill, then that's your point regardless of whether or not a story where Superman tells someone else killing is bad refers back to an incident of Superman killing.  Or to whether a story where Hawkeye says that killing is bad -- a stance he's taken often over the years -- rattles off a list of places where it's happened and why that doesn't alter the point.t

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on October 28, 2005, 12:05:46 PM
Seeing your stance on keeping the original JSA members firmly rooted in the WW2 era or else they'd lose what makes them special, how do you see the constant refashioning of Superman himself?  He seems to be reinvented every decade or so.

Does he work better tied closer to his original roots?

Do you have a preferred era or incarnation of him esp. if you were writing him? (An Elseworlds tale took him back to AC #1 levels and a War of the Worlds motif.)

How about my suggestion on another thread that DC keeps both the 'original' E-2 Superman (since he's not really the GA Superman but he's close enough) and the modern version?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on October 28, 2005, 12:59:57 PM
See in the old days kids outgrew comics, they just read them for a few years and moved on to something else, continuity didn't matter as much as a result.

Now you have people who started reading comics as a kid and never moved on, but kept reading them well into adulthood. Now they remember all that convoluted continuity.

Worst yet, very few new people, and surely not young kids, are picking up comics. The whole idea of a brand spanking new comics reader, who never read comics before of any kind is getter more and more rare. The only way to get new readers is with some big event or some other gimmick. Marvel is now trying by hiring popular novelists, but that will only bring in more adult readers, who may only read those books.

This has led to what comics have become today, as DC has just tried to hang on to those readers, and never tried to get new young kids hooked, no parents would let their kids read a Superman or Batman or Wonder Woman comic, and that my friends is very sad, since these are children characters, or I suppose they used to be.

It's like video games, before video games were just for kids, now most people who play video games are from the ages of 18 to 30!

Comics now want to be for that demographic, that's who they are going after, at both Marvel, DC and nearly everyone else.

Even though I am a mod here I can't even remember the last comic book that I brought. I stopped reading Superman with the Man of Steel Mini, which my cousin brought, and I read his issues and I decided I was done with Superman comics, since I decided that wasn't really Superman anymore.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 28, 2005, 03:30:55 PM
Quote
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
The VERY first two summaries I got were from whiners:

No, they're not.

The overall threads have more context dimension to them, sure.  But I only went as far as the first page of summaries and saw "more editorial control needed" and "continuity being what it is", which came across as continuity whines at first blush.  I knew I'd need another search term of three to narrow down things, but I figured I'd start somewhere.  I was more amused by it than anything since I just asked for a character and a team, not anything to do with continuity.  

Quote
I think that there are people who like to talk about continuity implications, and that that's not necessarily a bad thing.  If the alternative is to have Hawkeye run down all that information in the story itself, in hopes of preventing people from talking about it online, the result would be a turgid mess -- why would he be analyzing Thunderstrike and Crystal and all, when his point remains the same either way?

Heck, the post you quote mentions justification for Hawkeye's stance being consistent with his earlier characterization; it ain't a complaint.

I didn't say that it was a complaint, really.  I was just questioning if  a primary or significant response to a story seems to be to question where it fits into continuity, and the point of the story wasn't about introducing a  continuity twist but to get to some other places, is that really a good story?  Again, perhaps the lesson is that the people kvetching online have skewed views on some things.  Of course, it's harder to find "casual" fans of super hero comic books these days...

Quote
Would it improve the story for Hawkeye to say "Those guys aren't Avengers and Avengers don't kill?  Or, well, at least they're supposed to try not to?  And when they do I get pissed off at them like I'm pissed off at you?  And the finer points don't matter because we're not talking about a self-defenses killing or a killing to save lives -- you murdered someone for money, which is a leetle bit different, I think we can all agree!"?

Adding "not intentionally" or "unless there's other choice" might work, too.  Or maybe you could delve into how he felt when Mockingbird killed or something.  Not having read the story, I certainly can't comment too much on it in particular...

Quote
That's unrelated to the question of whether all that past history needs to be dredged up, though.  If your point is that Superman shouldn't kill, then that's your point regardless of whether or not a story where Superman tells someone else killing is bad refers back to an incident of Superman killing.  Or to whether a story where Hawkeye says that killing is bad -- a stance he's taken often over the years -- rattles off a list of places where it's happened and why that doesn't alter the point.

...but in general, I was winding back to the intiial point of "should XYZ kill".  My thought here was that Hawkeye's a greyer character, and that greyness can make him having killed an argument of "don't kill" more interesting.  By contrast, Superman having a conversation of "I was a killer" just sounds wrong - not just turgid - on so many levels.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 28, 2005, 10:39:08 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Seeing your stance on keeping the original JSA members firmly rooted in the WW2 era or else they'd lose what makes them special, how do you see the constant refashioning of Superman himself?  He seems to be reinvented every decade or so.


I think once you detach a character from their original setting, there's little reason not to keep doing it.  And since Superman has a lot more going for him as a character than, say, Dr. Mid-Nite, he survives it better.

Quote
Does he work better tied closer to his original roots?


Hard to say.  My favorite version is the Seventies Schwartz Superman.

Quote
Do you have a preferred era or incarnation of him esp. if you were writing him?


As a reader, see above.  As a writer, I expect I'd work with whatever the current version was.

Quote
How about my suggestion on another thread that DC keeps both the 'original' E-2 Superman (since he's not really the GA Superman but he's close enough) and the modern version?


I used to like the "Mr. and Mrs. Superman" strip quite a bit, but I think it only works if the two Superman are in different realities.  I wouldn't want to see them in the same timeline on an ongoing basis, like Jay, Barry and Wally...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 28, 2005, 10:51:02 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
I was just questioning if  a primary or significant response to a story seems to be to question where it fits into continuity, and the point of the story wasn't about introducing a  continuity twist but to get to some other places, is that really a good story?


I'm not sure I can untangle that, beyond saying that the original example -- not having Superman refer back to an earlier story -- would be unlikely to make people confused about where it fits in continuity, any more than him not mentioning his college days makes people think the story might be set before them, and that since the general reaction to the Thunderbolts storyline we're discussing was that it was quite a good story, then sure, why not?  [Heck, for that matter, nobody seemed confused about where the T-Bolts story fit into continuity either.]

Quote
Adding "not intentionally" or "unless there's other choice" might work, too.


I don't think so.  It might make the line more descriptive of actual history, but it makes it both less powerful and out of character -- Hawkeye's not delivering a historical dissertation that accounts for every possible example, he's yelling at someone.  It's just not necessary, in that context, for him to be that specific; he's making a general statement.

Quote
Or maybe you could delve into how he felt when Mockingbird killed or something.


Why would he?  That he feels bad about her death has nothing to do with whether heroes should or shouldn't kill -- she was killed by Mephisto.  So if he did that, he wouldn't be mentioning any earlier killings by Avengers (the original point) or bringing up an example that alters or even expands on his point.

It'd just be a continuity mention for the sake of continuity mentions.  He could also mention how he felt when his brother died, or his parents, but it doesn't actually add anything to his point, since none of them were killed by people acting as (or trying to act as) heroes.

Quote
By contrast, Superman having a conversation of "I was a killer" just sounds wrong - not just turgid - on so many levels.


Well, keep in mind that my original comment was that I wouldn't refer back to the earlier story, so no worries there.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 29, 2005, 12:25:15 AM
Quote
Quote
Or maybe you could delve into how he felt when Mockingbird killed or something.


Why would he?  That he feels bad about her death has nothing to do with whether heroes should or shouldn't kill -- she was killed by Mephisto.  So if he did that, he wouldn't be mentioning any earlier killings by Avengers (the original point) or bringing up an example that alters or even expands on his point.

When Mockingbird killed, not died -- think Phantom Rider who she let die, not Mephisto, and the reaction that Hawkeye had to that.  

But this is feeling less like a Superman discussion all the time.   So, on a completely different note:

Where would you have Superman's Fortress be?

a) Arctic
b) Antarctic
c) Andes
d) A treehouse in Kansas
e) 344 Clinton, 3D
f) The Phantom Zone
g) Kandor
h) Center of the sun
i) Core of the earth
j) Dark side of the moon
k) Mountain range near Metropolis
l) Fifth Dimension
m) The Batcave
n) Htrae
o) A glorithfied pocket dimension
p) 1600 Pennsylvania, DC
q) One Microsoft Way, WA
r) One Infinite Loop, CA
s) Krypto's doghouse
t) Streaky's cathouse
u) The Supremacy
v) The Closet
w) Themyscira
x) Marzal
y) Why did I get rid of the woobie?
z) [fill in the blank]


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 29, 2005, 01:08:49 AM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
When Mockingbird killed, not died -- think Phantom Rider who she let die, not Mephisto, and the reaction that Hawkeye had to that.  


Ah, I see where I misread.  I still don't think it adds anything, other than to say he's taken the same kind of stance before.  I can see him talking about it in a more reflective conversation at another time, but since his reasoning for why Abe should turn himself in isn't, "Because it'll make me feel bad," how he felt in other situations is less relevant than the underlying stance, which he articulated clearly.

Quote
Where would you have Superman's Fortress be?
a) Arctic
b) Antarctic
c) Andes
d) A treehouse in Kansas
e) 344 Clinton, 3D
f) The Phantom Zone
g) Kandor
h) Center of the sun
i) Core of the earth
j) Dark side of the moon
k) Mountain range near Metropolis
l) Fifth Dimension
m) The Batcave
n) Htrae
o) A glorithfied pocket dimension
p) 1600 Pennsylvania, DC
q) One Microsoft Way, WA
r) One Infinite Loop, CA
s) Krypto's doghouse
t) Streaky's cathouse
u) The Supremacy
v) The Closet
w) Themyscira
x) Marzal
y) Why did I get rid of the woobie?
z) [fill in the blank]


a), b) or z).  I actually have a "z" idea, but I'll keep it to myself -- you never know, I might get to use it.  h) and i) aren't bad, either.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Continental Op on October 29, 2005, 05:17:16 PM
Kurt, how many forums do you post at regularly to answer questions? It's mind-boggling that you make the rounds so much, and I'm sure I haven't seen them all.

Thank you for being so generous with your time.

I suppose you recall what it was like to see your letters answered in the old letter columns and like to pass on that feeling a little to the fans who are around now.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 29, 2005, 10:32:16 PM
Quote from: "Continental Op"
Kurt, how many forums do you post at regularly to answer questions?


Too many!

Quote
I suppose you recall what it was like to see your letters answered in the old letter columns and like to pass on that feeling a little to the fans who are around now.


Oh, heck, no.  I just like talking comics -- I feel like one of the letter-writers still, not the answerers.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on October 29, 2005, 10:48:10 PM
If only Guy H Lillian III and Irene Vartanoff were here too. :wink: :s:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on October 30, 2005, 12:28:57 AM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Continental Op"
Kurt, how many forums do you post at regularly to answer questions?


Too many!

Quote
I suppose you recall what it was like to see your letters answered in the old letter columns and like to pass on that feeling a little to the fans who are around now.


Oh, heck, no.  I just like talking comics -- I feel like one of the letter-writers still, not the answerers.

kdb


That's good to know :)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: VanZee on October 30, 2005, 01:14:55 AM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
I just like talking comics


Wonderful.  Then perhaps you'll answer what you think are the most emotionally resonate comics stories you've encountered.  The very idea of superheroes means they must, in some sense, celebrate or suffer their heroism in some larger-than-life way.  This makes for great storytelling.  What are your favorite storylines/story arcs?  Why?  Many thanks!


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 30, 2005, 12:56:53 PM
Quote from: "VanZee"
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
I just like talking comics


Wonderful.  Then perhaps you'll answer what you think are the most emotionally resonate comics stories you've encountered.  The very idea of superheroes means they must, in some sense, celebrate or suffer their heroism in some larger-than-life way.  This makes for great storytelling.  What are your favorite storylines/story arcs?  Why?  Many thanks!


Aaaaah!  I didn't say I like doing essay-question tests!  Aaaah!

But to unpack your question a little, there's at least conceivably a difference between a reader's favorite storylines and what he thinks are the most emotionally-resonant.  And, for that matter, the idea that superheroes must celebrate or suffer their heroism may be unrelated -- what if those favorite or emotionally-resonant comics don't have superheroes in 'em?

For instance, much as I like superheroes, and much as the interconnections of shared-universe superhero comics is what sucked me into the comics medium in the first place, my pick for all-time favorite comics tends to flip-flop between Milt Caniff's TERRY AND THE PIRATES and his first 15 years or so of STEVE CANYON.

TERRY, I used to pick for the sheer thrill of adventure it offered -- the exotic locales, the action, the romances, the noble purpose of the war years, the picaresque of Terry growing up through the various episodes, the engaging characters, the mixture of action and comedy, all that.  Some favorite arcs include the first April Kane story (which I have an original from on the wall beside my desk), where Terry and Pat, hired to replace the missing Dillon Kane, get involved with his sister's search for him, and embroiled in the plans of the Baron de Plexus and Sanjak, the deadliest woman alive.  It's all movie-serial adventure, but riven through with young romance, humor and compelling suspense.  Another choice would be the extended sequence where Terry enters the Army Air Force and learns to fly along with a class of Chinese cadets -- as it happens, Sanjak is in that one, too, but it's the character growth for Terry, as he gains new skills (and with it, adult power) but also steps into adult responsibility, that hooks me, combined with the romance, mild as it is, and the suspense and sentiment of the court-martial and its conclusion.

More and more as I get older, though, I find myself appreciating the CANYON stuff -- I used to think it had a lot of parallels to TERRY, but it was more muted, less colorful, less overtly fun.  And it is -- but it's also more nuanced, more adultly sentimental, more rueful and reflective.  TERRY is the best boys' adventure there ever was, CANYON is more adult.  The storylines that jump to mind there include "Taps for Shanty Town," the story of an Air Force general who literally works himself to death in the service of the duty he's taken on, the work that he loves.  It's sad, raucus, sweet and powerful. My other most immediate choice would be very different -- "Dark Horse Team," the story of Canyon's adoptive daughter Poteet coaching a misfit team of high-school basketball players to the state championship, which works as an adolescent sports fable on one level but also embroils Steve with his greatest love and his greatest enemy, features a lot of adult emotion and suffering, ideas on community morale and business ethics, and a very different kid of triumph than what plays out of the basketball court.

I'm also a nut for Frank King's GASOLINE ALLEY and the tales of everyday life it depicts, and Leonard Starr's ON STAGE, the best ongoing "human interest" drama in comics.  The overaching melodrama and romances in ON STAGE are a lot of fun, particularly when they involve the tragic Maximus or the quirky gangster Johnny Q, but individual arcs later in the strip's run, like the one about the last days of a cowboy-movie star who sees himslf becoming an irrelevance in a changing world, are hauntingly effective.

Limiting the sample to comic books, my favorites range from the light, daffy humor of the pre-Pussycats JOSIE by Doyle and DeCarlo, an absolute meringue of a comic but perfectly done, to the hallucinatory adventure of Bill Everett's VENUS, a comic so bizarre that at one point, the heroine, a Greek goddess working as a magazine reporter, has been turned into paper by a demon and still manages to be the aggressor -- "Watch it, buster, or I'll roll myself up into a spitball and jump right in your eye!"

Simon & Kirby's "Mother Delilah" in BOYS' RANCH #3 is as raw a story of love and betrayal as comics has ever seen.  And I haven't even hit superheroes yet.

Lee and Ditko's Master Planner trilogy in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #31-33 is as good as Spider-Man has ever gotten -- it's the one with that great sequence where Spidey lifts the huge machine rather than drown.  "The Celestial Madonna Saga" in AVENGERS #129 through GIANT-SIZE AVENGERS #4 is wild and cosmic and amazingly-plotted, and the death of the SWordsman in GIANT-SIZE #2 is the best single issue of AVENGERS ever, to my mind.  And Englehart's subsequent run on DETECTIVE is my favorite Batman, from the pulpy menace of the Tobacconists' Club to the bittersweet romance with Silver St. Cloud.

Goodwin & Simonson's Manhunter, with that great finale.  The yearlong Death of Iris epic in FLASH (which I list for the writing, not the uneven artwork).  The scope and variety and wide-eyed SF of Levitz's first LEGION run.  The pathos of Len Wein's HULK.  And on and on.

In the Superman mythos, my favorites include a trio of sentimental Bates stories -- the "Miraculous Return of Jonathan Kent" two-parter, the Luthor three-parter where Luthor's own brilliant plan breaks his heart, and the passiona and drive of "The Dying Days of Lois and Lana."  And then SUPERMAN VS. MUHAMMAD ALI, of all things, has such glorious visual spectacle wrapped around a story in which we see a Superman who just won't, can't, will not let himself fall down, not while there's any chance of victory, no matter how slim.

But there's way too many good comics out there to focus on just a few  favorites -- I haven't mentioned the battered idealism of AMERICAN FLAGG, the majesty of Goodwin's von Tagge stories in STAR WARS, the goofy humanism of Arriola's GORDO, the rueful humor of Bill Overgard's RUDY IN HOLLYWOOD, the enchanting graphics of Haenigsen's PENNY...

And I keep finding new things.  I have some old S&K romance comics with great Bill Draut art, and I'd seen some of his Sixties stuff and thought it was flat and mechanical -- but I just stumbled across an early-Seventies PHANTOM STRANGER that's got a Draut job that's just stunning, and it makes me want to seek out the other stuff he did around then.  Plus Seventies Lee Elias, more Warren-published Grandenetti, those European Tarzan comics Mark Evanier packaged (I really, REALLY want a full set of the Evanier/Spiegle Korak) and on and on.  I want to read TOUCH, FATHER & SON and LIKE SHOOTING STARS AT TWILIGHT, three untranslated managa series I have, in English someday.  I want good translations of CORTO MALTESE.  I want to re-find that early DENNIS THE MENACE Sunday with the parking meter and the cop.

Mainly, I just love good comics, whatever form or genre or flavor they come in.  But I think there are at least some answers to your question in there...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: VanZee on October 30, 2005, 01:54:50 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Mainly, I just love good comics, whatever form or genre or flavor they come in.


Aye, agreed.  Thank you for the essay.  Agreed, comics are a unique form that unites often highly literary concepts with dynamic art (EC Comics, anyone?).  One wonders just how profound the influence of comics has been on the film industry... the blocking, the framing, each panel a distinct scene, etc.

In the superhero realm, I've found the classic-era Spider-man especially evocative and, in retrospect, very much in tune with the teenage angst of its readership.  The Captain Stacy arc, for example, where Spidey's triumph over Doc Oc leads to the death of Peter's girlfriend's father, for which she will forever hate Spider-man... the discovery of Peter's identity by Harry Osborne after Spidey had accidentally killed his father, Norman.... All so central to the character of a hero who tries to do what's right but ends up the eternal and alienated loser.  That was a time of greatness.

This stuff has been re-tried and re-hashed, retconned, by later writers, but it strikes me that in the superhero genre it was really being explored (successfully) for the first time.

Great writers, I think, understand their characters and write stories that push at the things that make these characters great.  Uncle Mxy asked what circumstances might make Superman kill... but a better story for Superman might be to introduce a circumstance that would make most of US want to kill and Superman deciding differently.  THAT would be powerful.  That would be Super.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 30, 2005, 02:17:42 PM
Quote from: "VanZee"
Uncle Mxy asked what circumstances might make Superman kill... but a better story for Superman might be to introduce a circumstance that would make most of US want to kill and Superman deciding differently.  THAT would be powerful.  That would be Super.


...and one of the great strengths of serial comics is that it's even conceivable to do both stories.  And if both are done well, then which one is better becomes an interesting discussion, but not one that overbalances the fact that both would be valuable additions.

Alternatively, both could be bad -- good ideas rarely survive bad execution.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 30, 2005, 07:43:51 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Aaaaah!  I didn't say I like doing essay-question tests!  Aaaah!

Ok, so my efforts toward silly multiple-choice questions are not in vain!  Yay!

So Kurt, where does Superman keep his boots when he's dressed as Clark?

a) In the pouch inside Superman's cape, compressed yet invulnerable
b) The mystic trenchcoat the Highlanders keeps their beheading sword
c) The same place Captain America keeps his shield as Steve Rogers
d) The same place that he keeps Clark's shoes when he's Superman
e) [fill in the blank with the quip or essay of your choice]


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 30, 2005, 07:54:34 PM
Quote from: "VanZee"
Uncle Mxy asked what circumstances might make Superman kill...

Well, my question was "should Superman kill", with the thought being "is it even Superman anymore when he's depicted as some killer, regardless of the circumstances"?  I made the mistake of following up with a lot of words while doing a zillion different things at work.  It takes effort to be succinct, as Twain duly notes, and I admire the comic book writers who can do a lot with few words.  :)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 30, 2005, 10:46:20 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
So Kurt, where does Superman keep his boots when he's dressed as Clark?


"In the butt?"

(arcane Newlywed Game reference)

Quote
a) In the pouch inside Superman's cape, compressed yet invulnerable
b) The mystic trenchcoat the Highlanders keeps their beheading sword
c) The same place Captain America keeps his shield as Steve Rogers
d) The same place that he keeps Clark's shoes when he's Superman
e) [fill in the blank with the quip or essay of your choice]


Judging from some old stories, he super-compresses the soles and wears his socks and shoes over them.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: JulianPerez on October 31, 2005, 01:09:31 AM
Mr. Busiek, who are your favorite great, underused Superman villains?

I'm sure you have some! You've used some villains in your time that other writers have overlooked (that issue of AVENGERS you wrote with Kulan Gath had - IMHO - some of the best art George Perez ever did, in addition to a wonderful character dynamic - my only regret is that the Avengers lineup you used in that issue wasn't the one used in the first 2 years of that run).

Incidentally, when your POWER COMPANY series used Dr. Cyber, I felt like jumping up and down, but just gave a yeehah out loud. You see, I was reading it riding the bus from classes because my car was in the shop that particular month, and people looked at me oddly (but not TOO odd, because only insane transients ride the bus in Miami).

That one WONDER WOMAN story arc where Wonder Woman had to perform 12 great labors for the Justice League was a great story, and Dr. Cyber's return appearance with her face of glass was possibly the highlight.

Dr. Cyber had an excellent motivation, at least in those early stories: she wanted revenge on Wonder Woman and a desire to restore her face, which always involved some antisocial action. I always liked villains that had motivations apart from vague desires for power. Mad Thinker, I think, was most interesting in "Mad Thinker's Triumvirate of Terror" in AVENGERS #39, when he was after the Avengers to steal Tony Stark's electronic secrets.

I apologize if this is not Superman-related, but have I thanked you for the gift of Silverclaw yet? I wrote a list on this newsgroup a while ago about my favorite characters in superhero comics, and Silverclaw was amongst them; one dissatisfying lack in mainstream comics is that there have been few truly captivating original characters (especially in the X-books). The moment in that one Avengers story where she starts to cry on Jarvis's shoulder was absolutely beautiful - and I think I laughed out loud that time she turned into a giant silver llama! Steve Englehart used her in CELESTIAL QUEST, though it's a shame this character hasn't appeared in Marvel too often.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 31, 2005, 07:36:50 AM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
So Kurt, where does Superman keep his boots when he's dressed as Clark?


"In the butt?"

Lois gives her regards.  Note to self -- never (and I mean NEVER) give Kurt a "fill in the blank" question if I ever meet him in person.  :)

http://www.snopes2.com/radiotv/tv/newlywed.htm

Quote
Judging from some old stories, he super-compresses the soles and wears his socks and shoes over them.

Yeah, though there were obvious problems with that approach:

- how did he uncompress them when he had whacked-out powers -or- if they didn't need powers to uncompress, why didn't Clark's shoes explode

- if the soles were Kryptonian tough, wouldn't they be just as hard to compress -or- did Kryptonians count on super-compressable footwear

- are the soles the only "hardened" material, or are the boots as a whole hardened, in which case that raises the cobbler's nightmare to a new level.

What prompted this was that there's no real post-Crisis equivalent.  So a writer could do something very original here.  For example, you could have Superman get a costume from an alien civilization that turns out to have a bad influence on him.  The costume could migrate to other folks, and you could create new villains with names like Venage and Carnom, adding to the mythos of the character.  Heck, if your bad guy (or girl) is popular enough, he can be retconned into a good guy.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 31, 2005, 11:08:15 AM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Mr. Busiek, who are your favorite great, underused Superman villains?


I don't know.

In many cases, I find the obscure villains I use through research, or because my memory dredges them up to fit a particular story I have to tell.  In some cases, I'll like a villain not because they've had any wonderful stories, but because I see something I can do with them that makes them more interesting.  [For instance, I can't say I've ever much liked the Prankster, but I recently came up with a way to use him that makes me like him.]

And, of course, I'm plenty open to using characters from other places -- I used Dr. Cyber without any connection to Wonder Woman, and Kulan Gath as an Avengers villain even though he hadn't been one previously.

So I dunno.  I'd pick Amalak, I think, on the grounds that I think I could do something with him, and Microwave Man just because I like him.  But most of Superman's decent villains seem anything but underused.

Let me turn it around, though -- who are _your_ favorite underused Superman villains, and why?  Question open to anyone...

Quote
Mad Thinker, I think, was most interesting in "Mad Thinker's Triumvirate of Terror" in AVENGERS #39, when he was after the Avengers to steal Tony Stark's electronic secrets.


But you must admit, he was utterly overshadowed by Thunderboot!

Quote
I apologize if this is not Superman-related, but have I thanked you for the gift of Silverclaw yet?


Very glad you liked her!

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 31, 2005, 11:10:10 AM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
For example, you could have Superman get a costume from an alien civilization that turns out to have a bad influence on him.  The costume could migrate to other folks, and you could create new villains with names like Venage and Carnom, adding to the mythos of the character.  Heck, if your bad guy (or girl) is popular enough, he can be retconned into a good guy.


Back away slowly, sir.  Put down the spatula.

We have you surrounded.

You don't want to hurt yourself or anyone else.  Put down the spatula...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: JulianPerez on October 31, 2005, 02:01:15 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
I don't know.

In many cases, I find the obscure villains I use through research, or because my memory dredges them up to fit a particular story I have to tell.  In some cases, I'll like a villain not because they've had any wonderful stories, but because I see something I can do with them that makes them more interesting.  [For instance, I can't say I've ever much liked the Prankster, but I recently came up with a way to use him that makes me like him.]

And, of course, I'm plenty open to using characters from other places -- I used Dr. Cyber without any connection to Wonder Woman, and Kulan Gath as an Avengers villain even though he hadn't been one previously.

So I dunno.  I'd pick Amalak, I think, on the grounds that I think I could do something with him, and Microwave Man just because I like him.  But most of Superman's decent villains seem anything but underused.

Let me turn it around, though -- who are _your_ favorite underused Superman villains, and why?  Question open to anyone...


How about Mohammed Ali?  :D Was that tabloid comic great, or what? Man, they ought to turn the Superman/Ali fight into a regular event, sort of like the JLA/JSA team-ups (hint, hint, DC).

I always loved King Krypton, who, after Mort Weisenger left the super-titles, was apparently forgotten forever.  :( He was a scientist from Krypton who had his brain placed into a gorilla, so when he came to earth he was a superpowered, talking gorilla. WOW.

I always loved the Galactic Golem, too, who I think was created by Cary Bates, and who was the only person that tended to use him. I found it fascinating that he was made of something that could be transmitted by radio telescope. He had a wonderful look to him as well, with all those sparkling stars and miniature planets.

Diana Savage is one of my favorite of the "Jimmy Olsen, Mr. Action" villains, especially when the art is done by the wonderful Kurt Schaffenberger. Jimmy, I think, is at his best when he's a two fisted tough guy instead of as an idiot who drinks potions on alien spacecraft, who makes you wonder if Superman's constant rescues of Jimmy from peril is interference with natural selection. Can a tough guy wear a bow tie? For Jimmy's sake, I hope so!

I did also love that civilization of long-lost Vikings in Canada that rides giant birds, created by (I think) Elliot S! Maggin.

My favorite Legion of Super-Heroes enemy has to be Otto Orion, who had a heck of a better story than the unpromising "world's most dangerous game" concept would lend itself to. Natives with ray guns built into spears? That splash page with the Legionnaires' heads are framed? The splash page against a horned tiger? Panel on panel of monsters, from radioactive dinosaurs to eagles trained to drop kryptonite cages? Wow, this was all great stuff; nobody could do creatures like Curt Swan could do creatures. Little Jimmy Shooter was as much a genius as he is adorable.

I'm not a very big Gerry Conway fan at all, but I did find absolutely wonderful that one story arc in his JLA (making him a Superman enemy by proxy) where he had half-human, half-animal monsters. They had a half-rhino that gored the Flash, a fight by Hawkman against scorpions with human faces (!) and Superman getting punched all the way to the great lakes by a Godzilla-sized whale monster. While a catgirl is not the most original idea in the world, the personality Conway gave her WAS; she was skittish, and craved body heat, and warmed up to Superman immediately like cats with people. And of course, the leader is a lion-man named "Rex." There's something wonderfully cheesy about that; it smiles at you and you can't help but smile back.

Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
But you must admit, he was utterly overshadowed by Thunderboot!


Where does the Mad Thinker place the Classified Ad to GET these people? "Must wear hammer on head."

Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Very glad you liked her!


It's true! Silverclaw is one of my favorite characters, along with the Valkyrie in Englehart's DEFENDERS, Captain Comet, the Japanese Dr. Light, and (obviously) Superman. Does she actually TURN to silver, a la Ferro Lad, or does she just acquire a peculiar silver color, or what's the story? Can she turn into an electric eel and get electric powers (that's a South American animal)? Or into a chameleon and get color-change powers (ditto)?

Speaking of wonderful obscure characters, whatever happened to the Martian Manhunter's Silver Age sidekick, that little orange alien Zoot, with the trumpets on his head that can create cold? To the best of my knowledge, he has not been brought back or even mentioned since the Martian Manhunter's spy series in HOUSE OF SECRETS.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on October 31, 2005, 02:02:01 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Let me turn it around, though -- who are _your_ favorite underused Superman villains, and why?  Question open to anyone...


Mala, U-Ban and Kizo, hands down the most influential Superman villians of all time, spawing countless clones, nearly all more famous than them ;)

They only appeared twice in the 1950's.

Only while not a villian, how about Halk Kar? He only appeared once, but he did serve as the blue print for Mon-El.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on October 31, 2005, 02:47:39 PM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Let me turn it around, though -- who are _your_ favorite underused Superman villains, and why?  Question open to anyone...


How about Mohammed Ali?  :D Was that tabloid comic great, or what? Man, they ought to turn the Superman/Ali fight into a regular event, sort of like the JLA/JSA team-ups (hint, hint, DC).


One of my all-time favorite Superman stories, but I never did see Ali as the villain...

Quote
I always loved the Galactic Golem, too, who I think was created by Cary Bates, and who was the only person that tended to use him.


One of these days, you'll solve whatever glitch it is that causes you to credit Len Wein's Super-stuff to Cary -- it's probably the very careful, clean structures their stories tended to have.

I like the Galactic Golem too, largely on visuals.

Quote
I'm not a very big Gerry Conway fan at all, but I did find absolutely wonderful that one story arc in his JLA (making him a Superman enemy by proxy) where he had half-human, half-animal monsters.


That story -- the last of Gerry's pre-Detroit League stories, I think -- came right before my first JLA story.  Rex Maximus and the Ani-Men, I think.

I had been thinking about re-using them in POWER COMPANY, but JSA did that story with Roulette, which set up their "gladiatorial combat as entertainment for bored rich decadent folks" thing in a new way, so I backburnered it.

Re: Silverclaw

Quote
Does she actually TURN to silver, a la Ferro Lad, or does she just acquire a peculiar silver color, or what's the story?


I think it's just color and texture, not actual metal.

Quote
Can she turn into an electric eel and get electric powers (that's a South American animal)?


I'd assume so, yes.  Or at least, she'd turn into a half-human/half-eel thing.

Quote
Or into a chameleon and get color-change powers (ditto)?


Yes, but her base color would be silver.

Quote
Speaking of wonderful obscure characters, whatever happened to the Martian Manhunter's Silver Age sidekick, that little orange alien Zoot, with the trumpets on his head that can create cold? To the best of my knowledge, he has not been brought back or even mentioned since the Martian Manhunter's spy series in HOUSE OF SECRETS.


He's been at least referred to here and there.  The Martian Manhunter's current belt-buckle is a semi-sentient Martian flower called a "Zo'ok," and Zook toys or other such references have been seen in YOUNG JUSTICE, PLANET KRYPTON and even the Justice League cartoon.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Continental Op on October 31, 2005, 08:17:09 PM
Zook appears this month in the Mike Allred issue of SOLO (#7). Hanging out with Bat-Mite, no less.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on November 01, 2005, 04:15:19 PM
Hi Kurt,

Some questions on the fictional universes ...

Do you think Superman works better in a shared universe like he is currently?

Or does he work better in his own universe as he usually was depicted before the Bronze Age?

BTW, kudos on the remarkable insight that the different Earths might be different in size, physical laws, etc. in JLA/Avengers.  In hindsight, that does make sense considering all those fake countries, cities, etc. that crop up in the different stories.  Is that where you got that from, the plethora of different fake locations in the various books?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 01, 2005, 09:01:00 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Do you think Superman works better in a shared universe like he is currently?  Or does he work better in his own universe as he usually was depicted before the Bronze Age?


I think it's pretty much a wash.  He works well both ways -- I wouldn't mind seeing some stories where Superman (and the super-mythos) are pretty much the only super-stuff, but that's likely just variety speaking.  If he'd been in his own continuum for years, I'd probably be just as happy to see some team-ups.

Quote
BTW, kudos on the remarkable insight that the different Earths might be different in size, physical laws, etc. in JLA/Avengers.  In hindsight, that does make sense considering all those fake countries, cities, etc. that crop up in the different stories.  Is that where you got that from, the plethora of different fake locations in the various books?


Yes.  Plus, I just thought it would be fun -- there's no reason the Earths all have to be the same size, after all, so in a story that's built on the idea that they're different kinds of worlds, why not?

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on November 03, 2005, 09:24:14 AM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Continental Op"
Kurt, how many forums do you post at regularly to answer questions?


Too many!


Well, I can reduce the potential forums for you somewhat.

I strongly recommend that you don't post at Superherochat or The Comic Edge.  Those forums have the kind of flame-happy goons that hated Thor being beaten by Superman and have been banned from all the civilized forums elsewhere.  Hey, they had to go somewhere, right?

IIRC, you used to post at Alvaro's and they're very good for treating visiting creators.  Walt Simonson was a regular there on their Orion board back in the day.  I have my own issues about that forum, but it's good for creators there.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 03, 2005, 12:48:50 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
IIRC, you used to post at Alvaro's and they're very good for treating visiting creators.  Walt Simonson was a regular there on their Orion board back in the day.  I have my own issues about that forum, but it's good for creators there.


I still check in there, but they don't get a lot of CONAN or ASTRO CITY talk, so until and unless I'm doing something that gets more play there, I doubt I'll have much to respond to.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on November 03, 2005, 01:24:22 PM
BTW, I just noticed lately that ASTRO CITY resembles 'atrocity'.  Was that intentional or just an accident?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 03, 2005, 03:58:50 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
BTW, I just noticed lately that ASTRO CITY resembles 'atrocity'.  Was that intentional or just an accident?


Coincidence.  But not one we haven't thought about playing with.

"Monstro City" resembling "monstrosity" was deliberate, though.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on November 05, 2005, 08:09:34 PM
Kurt, you mentioned how Superman works as an updated character and the versatility of the character has come up several times on this thread from both you and others.

In your opinion, how much of that versatility is inherent in Siegel's original portrayals?

How much of that is due to the richness of the myth-building in the decades since he first appeared?

If it's the latter, what do you think -- and how do you feel for that matter -- about DC ditching nearly all of that rich history after the Crisis?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 05, 2005, 10:34:56 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Kurt, you mentioned how Superman works as an updated character and the versatility of the character has come up several times on this thread from both you and others.
In your opinion, how much of that versatility is inherent in Siegel's original portrayals?  How much of that is due to the richness of the myth-building in the decades since he first appeared?


Don't really know.

Quote
If it's the latter, what do you think -- and how do you feel for that matter -- about DC ditching nearly all of that rich history after the Crisis?


That was one of the updatings he works as.

It's twenty years ago.  There were things they lost that I liked, things they added that I liked.  I could quibble with bits of it, but mostly -- so it goes.  I like the Schwartz Superman a lot, but I doubt what we'd have today would be much like it, even if CRISIS hadn't happened, just as the Superman of 1975 wasn't a whole lot like the Superman of 1955, or the Superman of 1965 wasn't much like the Superman of 1945.

It kinda seems like any take on Superman starts to get tired after ten or twelve years or so, and gets juiced up by a fresh approach.  But ten years of monthly adventures in multiple books adds up to a sizable body of work, so it's hard to gripe that it didn't get explored enough, at least to my mind.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: dto on November 18, 2005, 01:27:35 PM
Mr. Busiek, I thought I'd bump this thread up again to thank you both for your work and for frequenting this message board.  I've enjoyed our past conversation concerning Superboy-Prime and "Superman: Secret Identity".  While I am glad to see Prime once again in "Infinite Crisis", I'm also a bit apprehensive over DC's plans for this kid.  I take consolation in the fact that whatever fate's in store for Superboy-Prime (while I'd like to see him join those comic book-fans in Mark Waid's "Legion of Super-Heroes", the cynic in me is bracing for the "heroic death" that'll inspire Conner Kent to finally get his act together) I still have your "Clark Kent" and family.

I don't usually collect new series (the back issue bins own my wallet), but I've heard many enthusiastic reviews about "Astro City".  Last week I found a nearly-complete run of Volume Two (was #23 the last one?) at an irresistable price.  But I'd still might have passed on it had I not read "Superman: Secret Identity" AND seen your comments on this Message Board.  I'll probably get the "Local Heroes" and "The Dark Age" issues soon.

Perhaps this is a personal quirk, but I usually collect individual issues even when they are compiled in a trade paperback format.  I just prefer reading comics as they were originally intended, rather than a collected volume with a thick spine and the cover art consigned to an appendix gallery.  Even the added "goodies" don't usually tempt me.

But since "Astro City" Volume One is now rather pricey, I bought the trade paperback.  I'm now rather glad for this, since I had the advantage of slowly reading through your Introduction.  I must have looked like a bobble-head doll, since I was nodding in agreement all the way.   :wink:

I just finished the first story, featuring the Samaritan dreaming of flight.  It's HARD to put down the book at that point (like eating just one Lays potato chip), but I need more uninterrupted time to fully enjoy this ride.

Thanks you again, Mr. Busiek.  While I always considered Metropolis to be my "favorite city" (and hopefully after "Infinite Crisis" it will continue to be), I definitely need to check in with the Astro City Visitor's Bureau and Chamber of Commerce.

And now, please excuse me -- I have a lot of reading this weekend...   :D


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 18, 2005, 01:48:11 PM
Quote from: "dto"
I don't usually collect new series (the back issue bins own my wallet), but I've heard many enthusiastic reviews about "Astro City".  Last week I found a nearly-complete run of Volume Two (was #23 the last one?) at an irresistable price.


Actually, #22 was the last one.  If you have a copy of #23, I want your dimensional gate!  [Of course, in this dimension, what was planned to be #23 wound up as LOCAL HEROES #3, but still...]

Quote
Thanks you again, Mr. Busiek.  While I always considered Metropolis to be my "favorite city" (and hopefully after "Infinite Crisis" it will continue to be), I definitely need to check in with the Astro City Visitor's Bureau and Chamber of Commerce.


Thanks for the very kind words!

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: dto on November 19, 2005, 05:54:55 AM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"

Actually, #22 was the last one.  If you have a copy of #23, I want your dimensional gate!  [Of course, in this dimension, what was planned to be #23 wound up as LOCAL HEROES #3, but still...]


Oops!  No WONDER I have trouble trying to locate #23!    :wink:

Though the idea of a transdimensional comic book shop is an appealling one.  Don't like the current "Supergirl"?  Peter David's Linda Danvers just recently celebrated her 100th Issue.  Or check the back issue bins for "The Adventures of Supergirl" (though Silver Age traditionalists still deplore the Byrne "Maid of Steel" reboot that made Kara Zor-El the "Last Daughter of Krypton")...   :wink:

On a more serious note, where during the course of Volume Two should one read the "Supersonic" and "Flip Book" singles?  Thanks again.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 19, 2005, 12:53:28 PM
Quote from: "dto"
On a more serious note, where during the course of Volume Two should one read the "Supersonic" and "Flip Book" singles?  Thanks again.


After it.  "Supersonic" is actually the finale of the "Local Heroes" set o' tales, and the flip book is the prologue to THE DARK AGE.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kal-L on November 21, 2005, 10:07:12 AM
You're Kurt Busiek? Really? My pleasure.
Let me, please, introduce myself, I am Stan Lee...


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Gangbuster on November 21, 2005, 10:16:11 AM
Hey, you just got compared to Stan Lee...


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 21, 2005, 12:59:55 PM
Quote from: "Kal-L"
You're Kurt Busiek? Really? My pleasure.
Let me, please, introduce myself, I am Stan Lee...


Hi, Stan, haven't seen you in a while.  Finding all your underwear okay?*

kdb

*for those now confused (.e., everyone but me), I first met Stan in the underwear section of a department store in San Diego in 1989.  Both of us were attending the San Diego Con and had underpacked...


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kal-L on November 22, 2005, 05:31:55 AM
Quote
Hi, Stan, haven't seen you in a while. Finding all your underwear okay?*

Found them allright, thank you. But now, because of my old age, I wear nappies...

BTW, who changed my avatar?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on November 22, 2005, 03:49:50 PM
Aww, c'mon.  Kal-L is a Brit while the real Stan Lee is a NYC native.  He just doesn't believe you really are Kurt Busiek.  Well, that's his business.

Kurt, here's some loaded -- albeit typical -- questions.  Just how strong would you write Superman as being?  Should he have limits?

Before you answer, let me paraphrase Walt Simonson's answer to this: He's as strong he needs him to be for the story he's writing.

Does Walt's answer jibe with your own take on this?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 22, 2005, 04:34:37 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Kurt, here's some loaded -- albeit typical -- questions.  Just how strong would you write Superman as being?  Should he have limits?

Before you answer, let me paraphrase Walt Simonson's answer to this: He's as strong he needs him to be for the story he's writing.

Does Walt's answer jibe with your own take on this?


Pretty much.  I hate stat lists with a passion.

My answers are, "I'd write him as wicked strong," and "Sure, but I don't think the audience should know them in anything more than a general sense.  Even real people have good days and bad days, and if their limits fluctuate, why shouldn't Superman's?"

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on November 22, 2005, 05:35:29 PM
Stan Lee is a Brit?
Oh well...
A Leiber by any other name....... :roll:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kal-L on November 23, 2005, 07:50:24 AM
Quote
Aww, c'mon. Kal-L is a Brit while the real Stan Lee is a NYC native. He just doesn't believe you really are Kurt Busiek. Well, that's his business.


No, I don't believe it. The real Kurt Busiek wouldn't waste time taking part in a forum, he's got plenty of other things to do...

In my turn, I might make you believe  I am Moebius (aka Giraud) who's drawn Silver Surfer, and put a link to his site.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Permanus on November 23, 2005, 07:56:20 AM
Quote from: "Kal-L"
Quote
Aww, c'mon. Kal-L is a Brit while the real Stan Lee is a NYC native. He just doesn't believe you really are Kurt Busiek. Well, that's his business.

You mean he's not the real Kal-L?  :wink:

Actually, I thought Kal was French.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Nephrite on November 23, 2005, 08:30:05 AM
Latest Wizard reports that Geoff Johns & Kurt Busiek are doing an 8-part Superman story post-IC running through Action & Superman.
Art by Pete Woods.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on November 23, 2005, 10:56:56 AM
Actually, a lot of comics professionals frequent the internet forums.

I know Kurt from his days at Alvaro's where a lot of pros hang out.  They like it there.  Same goes for Walt Simonson and Mike Wieringo to name a few others from there.

CBR just recently had a chat session with Elliot Maggin.

We have interviews from several pros at a forum that I'm now boycotting for other reasons.

But believe what you want.  What Kurt says here jibes with what he's said on the other forums and with his history with certain individuals elsewhere who shall remain nameless for now.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on November 23, 2005, 11:18:19 AM
Yeah CK and the others are right, it's not uncommon for pros to talk to their audience in this global village of ours.

OTOH, this is the first time I've rung in on this thread since the first page so I just wanna say Mr. B I'm a huge fan. Secret Identity is one of my all time favorite books, absolutely loved it.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kal-L on November 24, 2005, 06:25:26 AM
It's easy to fool people on internet. I already been caught with more credible tall stories. If the alleged Kurt Busiek of this forum is actually Kurt Busiek, he'll have to prove it...


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on November 24, 2005, 06:42:00 AM
Why should he?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kal-L on November 24, 2005, 06:46:30 AM
Because it is too easy to claim being someone when hidden behind a comp screen.
Moreover, it is illegal to usurp someone else's identity.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on November 24, 2005, 09:05:58 AM
Regardless...

 looks like our pal Kurt'll be writing one of the OYL Superman titles. :D


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on November 24, 2005, 10:16:21 AM
He is the real deal as far as I can tell, he has yet to post anything that would make me think otherwise.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on November 24, 2005, 12:25:58 PM
Yep, as I said earlier, what he's said here is consistent with his history elsewhere on other forums, his personal history and relationships, and official interviews and books.

The problem with lying is it takes a lot of effort to keep track of all those lies to maintain a consistent front.  While it's not impossible, liars tend to trip up on consistency issues sooner or later.

Also, the internet has no laws on impersonating people to my knowledge.  It's a largely unregulated medium mostly owing to the cross-border nature of the beast.  Identity theft is a problem but even where those laws apply, it's about financial gain and I've yet to see any attempts to make money off this poster being 'Kurt Busiek' unless it were to make us buy Busiek's books, which only benefits the real Kurt Busiek.

Local forums may have policies against impersonating others, but those are hardly legal matters.  As Super Monkey said, our moderator is satisfied this is not an impersonation so that satisfies our local rules.

Even if he weren't the real deal, the person posting as Kurt Busiek here is a fascinating and well-thought out individual who's fun to talk to.  His POV is worthwhile discussing regardless if he chose to post under a pseudonym like ... oh ... Kal-L.  He certainly hasn't made any big reference or spelling blunders as some posters have innocently made, no names mentioned.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 24, 2005, 12:48:57 PM
It doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me if someone thinks I'm me or an impostor, but if it'll satisfy...

Page 8, panel 4 of CONAN #23, out next month, begins "The voice had been like dust.  And ice.  And rot."

The book isn't printed yet, so if anyone wants to check that when it comes out, that'll make it clear I'm either me, or possibly another part of the CONAN staff, pretending to be me for unknown reasons.  But not Joe Shlbotnik from Somewhereelseville, USA, at least.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: ANIME Avenger on November 24, 2005, 12:56:26 PM
WOW! True honour to meet you here, Mr. Busiek sir! :D

AA


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on November 24, 2005, 02:44:09 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
It doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me if someone thinks I'm me or an impostor, but if it'll satisfy...

Page 8, panel 4 of CONAN #23, out next month, begins "The voice had been like dust.  And ice.  And rot."

The book isn't printed yet, so if anyone wants to check that when it comes out, that'll make it clear I'm either me, or possibly another part of the CONAN staff, pretending to be me for unknown reasons.  But not Joe Shlbotnik from Somewhereelseville, USA, at least.

kdb


I'll bet he will post something like "lucky guess" once it is released ;)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 24, 2005, 02:50:29 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
I'll bet he will post something like "lucky guess" once it is released ;)


If I'm that lucky, put your money on whatever I bet on...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on November 24, 2005, 03:07:50 PM
I'll be honest and say I was a bit doubtful if you were the real article when you first appeared here.  But after discussing matters with you and seeing that it does indeed jibe with what I do know about you and how you behaved in the past, I'm convinced you're the real article.

Hence, that's why I've been one of the big defenders on this matter here -- Not that you need my help.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Dial H For Hero on November 24, 2005, 03:08:13 PM
As long as this thread has been going on, it seems likely that if this wasn't the real Kurt Busiek, the true one would've shown up by now to cry foul. I know I would.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on November 24, 2005, 03:14:14 PM
Exactly right, Dial H for Hero.

Someone once impersonated me, or rather my 'Captain Kal' handle, on Alvaro's back in the day.

What was odd was the imposter posted in my name an old article of mine that I really did write.

I called him and the moderator on it.  It turned out the other guy thought I wasn't around so he thought he'd pinch-hit for me on a debate with something I actually said before.

I was both creeped out and flattered.  Flattered that someone would take the trouble to first save my old article, then decide to sub for me in a pinch.  Creeped out 'cause they were assuming my ID.

Yeah, after a long thread like this, I'd say the real guy would have nailed any imposters by this point.  It took me only one post to rear my ugly head.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Gernot on November 24, 2005, 04:11:28 PM
HOW would he?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kal-L on November 25, 2005, 07:28:45 AM
Quote
As long as this thread has been going on, it seems likely that if this wasn't the real Kurt Busiek, the true one would've shown up by now to cry foul. I know I would.


Among hundreth, if not thousands of sites on the net, there are few chances the real Kurt Busiek noticed an impostor took his ID.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on November 25, 2005, 07:57:46 AM
Well considering this is one of the THE top Superman sites, I don't think it'd go completely unnoticed here. SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE would probably see it and get a hold of him and go "Hey, someone's posing as you on one of the top Superman sites, and doing a darn good job of it".


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on November 25, 2005, 10:24:13 AM
Hey, Kurt!  You posted here a month ago or so that you'd be doing some DC work again but you couldn't give us the spoilers yet.

Here's the link to the teaser post page:
http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1720&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=144

DC has just officially announced that you and Geoff Johns will be sharing the writing on Superman/Action Comics.  Is this the big reveal that you said to be on the lookout for?  This is almost exactly on schedule with what you posted before.

And I've got my wish.  Kurt Busiek is doing a regular superbook.

Yay!!!

:D

(Yeah, and I said back then it was an odd coincidence that you started posting on a major Superman forum just prior to you getting possible Superman work.  You said you just noticed your name showing up on a search of your name.  It looks like my instincts were correct -- yet again.  I have a very good track record of ideas that eventually show up in the books.)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: BMK! on November 25, 2005, 11:01:01 AM
Quote

DC has just officially announced that you and Geoff Johns will be sharing the writing on Superman/Action Comics.  Is this the big reveal that you said to be on the lookout for?  This is almost exactly on schedule with what you posted before.

And I've got my wish.  Kurt Busiek is doing a regular superbook.

Yay!!!


As written in WIZARD...

Superman/Action Comics-an eight issue storyline threads between the two titles, leading to a major status quo change in June! Co-written by Geoff Johns and Kurt Busiek, art by Pete Woods.

Congratulations, Kurt!  Two of my favorite writers chronicling the adventures of my #1 best-loved fictional character is a win-win situation in my eyes! Now is this only a temporary writing assignment for you gentlemen, since it is initially an 8-issue arc or is it just the length of issues that will be interconnected?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on November 26, 2005, 03:32:52 AM
If you have any influence with Johns while working with him -- a must IMHO if you're working together -- would you mind passing two suggestions to him?

One, please, please, please suggest he put some more fun in his stories and stop his dismal trend for more gore and darkness.  At the very least, try to have your combined work on Superman be of a less dismal nature, if you can't influence his general comics work.

Two, please have you or someone else do the comics science and powers instead of him.  He doesn't do very well in that area -- If you've seen my criticism posts on that you know what I mean.  Heck, you're a bright guy obviously much more qualified than I am so I'm sure you've noted the same things.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: CRISISHATER on November 26, 2005, 03:38:03 AM
Kurt please lobby for a Kal-el superboy in some shape or form. That's all I ask of DC...


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on November 26, 2005, 07:57:21 AM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
*for those now confused (.e., everyone but me), I first met Stan in the underwear section of a department store in San Diego in 1989.  Both of us were attending the San Diego Con and had underpacked...

I have to imagine that it beats meeting up in the underwear section of the San Diego Con itself!  I have this bad dream that starts with "Say, are those Spider-Man Underoos?" and ends with "Just Imagine Stan Lee's"...  oh never mind!  

But that leads me to an actual Superman question for Kurt (or at least, the simulacra that Kurt hires to write Conan and post on this board):  What are your favorite Elseworlds / alternate Superman renditions?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 26, 2005, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
But that leads me to an actual Superman question for Kurt (or at least, the simulacra that Kurt hires to write Conan and post on this board):  What are your favorite Elseworlds / alternate Superman renditions?


Well, the Superboy of Earth-Prime is way up there.

I also tend to think of the "Mr. & Mrs. Superman" series as an "alternate" Superman (yeah, he's actually the original, but by the time that series happened, he was an alternative to the main one), and I just loved it.

Oh, and the Super-Sons.

I can't say I was ever a big Elseworlds guy, and that imprint was very Batman-heavy anyway, but of the official "Elseworlds," I liked SUPERMAN: THE DARK SIDE a lot, and I liked SUPERMAN/TARZAN: SONS OF THE JUNGLE more than a lot of people seemed to (but then, I like Carlos Meglia art).

What else?  I liked the early episodes of "Superman 2020," but it didn't go anywhere, did it?

I liked the world of SUPERMAN FAMILY #200, even if the story itself didn't do anything for me.

I guess I'm a sucker for stories with relatively positive views of what Superman's future could be like, especially if it's got dynastic aspects, or at least kids, and roles for the rest of the Superman family...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: BMK! on November 26, 2005, 02:27:11 PM
Kurt Busiek wrote:

Quote
Well, the Superboy of Earth-Prime is way up there.

I also tend to think of the "Mr. & Mrs. Superman" series as an "alternate" Superman (yeah, he's actually the original, but by the time that series happened, he was an alternative to the main one), and I just loved it.

Oh, and the Super-Sons.

I can't say I was ever a big Elseworlds guy, and that imprint was very Batman-heavy anyway, but of the official "Elseworlds," I liked SUPERMAN: THE DARK SIDE a lot, and I liked SUPERMAN/TARZAN: SONS OF THE JUNGLE more than a lot of people seemed to (but then, I like Carlos Meglia art).

What else?  I liked the early episodes of "Superman 2020," but it didn't go anywhere, did it?

I liked the world of SUPERMAN FAMILY #200, even if the story itself didn't do anything for me.

I guess I'm a sucker for stories with relatively positive views of what Superman's future could be like, especially if it's got dynastic aspects, or at least kids, and roles for the rest of the Superman family...



Besides the alternate Superman stories you mentioned, I also enjoyed the back-up stories by Bob Rozakis..."Just Imagine: The Secret Origin of Bruce(Superman)Wayne from Superman #353 (Nov 1980)...A Day In The Life of Bruce(Superman)Wayne from Superman #358 (April 1981)....A Night In The Life of Bruce(Superman)Wayne from Superman #363 (Sep. 1981)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 26, 2005, 02:35:24 PM
Quote from: "BMK!"
Besides the alternate Superman stories you mentioned, I also enjoyed the back-up stories by Bob Rozakis..."Just Imagine: The Secret Origin of Bruce(Superman)Wayne from Superman #353 (Nov 1980)...A Day In The Life of Bruce(Superman)Wayne from Superman #358 (April 1981)....A Night In The Life of Bruce(Superman)Wayne from Superman #363 (Sep. 1981)


To each his own -- I really didn't care for those.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 26, 2005, 02:43:56 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
If you have any influence with Johns while working with him -- a must IMHO if you're working together -- would you mind passing two suggestions to him?


With all due respect -- I'm not going to do that.

First off, because collaborating with someone isn't an opportunity to remake them -- and even if it were, it may be that there's stuff I like about Geoff's work that you don't, and stuff you like that I don't, so you got no guarantee I'd be trying to remake him into something you'd like better.  We've talked through the story, each of us contributing ideas -- and whether they're grim or happy or what, you'll have to wait and see.

And second, this is comics -- it's easy enough to contact the creators that you don't need other people to carry suggestions for you.  You can send them in directly -- Geoff's even got a message board -- and the creators can accept 'em or reject 'em on their merits.

As for science and powers, remember -- I'm the guy who hates stat lists and has no problem with "The Computers That Saved Metropolis"...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on November 26, 2005, 02:56:48 PM
Quote
As for science and powers, remember -- I'm the guy who hates stat lists and has no problem with "The Computers That Saved Metropolis"...


Me too :)

I like the fact that Superman can feel Jimmy Olsen tap him on the shoulder. I don't need a scientific explanation for every little thing in a freaking comic book, in real life, it's a different story, but for a comic, to me that's like asking for scientific explanations for things in a Bugs Bunny Cartoon.

It's a comic book, you can do whatever you want in a comic, It saddens me when people limit their creative energy by putting too many rules into what can and can never be done in a story.

The very best comics for my money were those who didn't follow any rules and did whatever was best for the story to be told.

IMHO ;)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 26, 2005, 02:59:36 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
The very best comics for my money were those who didn't follow any rules and did whatever was best for the story to be told.

IMHO ;)


Yes, but let's not forget:  You're a lab monkey from outer space.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on November 26, 2005, 03:03:21 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
The very best comics for my money were those who didn't follow any rules and did whatever was best for the story to be told.

IMHO ;)


Yes, but let's not forget:  You're a lab monkey from outer space.

kdb


who wears a cape :)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on November 26, 2005, 08:00:29 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Two, please have you or someone else do the comics science and powers instead of him.  He doesn't do very well in that area -- If you've seen my criticism posts on that you know what I mean.  Heck, you're a bright guy obviously much more qualified than I am so I'm sure you've noted the same things.

I've been refraining from responding until now, but I have a confession to make.  

It's all MY fault.  Blame me.

Geoff Johns and I grew up in the same neck of the woods -- Clarkston, Michigan.  We went to the same high school and probably shared a few of the same science teachers.  An "idealized" rendition is Clarkston, MI is documented in THE THING: FREAKSHOW (the Kree/Skrull invasion part is pretty accurate, but the bit about cows in Clarkston is bogus... he was probably referring to nearby Ortonville).  Geoff was a waiter at a place I would go to every once in awhile with my girlfriend at the time, before she became a psycho hose beast ex-girlfriend.  

I should have recognized the spark of comic book greatness that was within him!  Instead of tipping him with dollar bills, I should have left him little notes like: "Know and love superstring theory, for it will help you to put Superman's powers in a rational framework."  In hindsight, it's clear I should have intercepted him before he did the excreable thing of going to the church of Richard Donner and learning <shudder> storytelling!  But NOOOoooo...  instead I simply tipped him 15-20% and never bothered to nip his bad pseudoscience in the bud, and now poor victims like Captain Kal have to suffer for it.  

I beseech forgiveness!!!

And on a serious note for Kurt...  if there's anything I'd want you to use your influence on Geoff Johns over, it'd be to see if he could dig up Tom Manciewicz and see if he's interested in writing Superman.  Besides being the script doctor for the Superman movie, he also wrote Hart To Hart, one of the few adventure shows about happily married people that didn't suck.  He'd be ideal for the Clark + Lois relationship, assuming that's not part of the status quo that you're going to mess with in that 8-part story arc.  :)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on November 26, 2005, 10:08:42 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
The very best comics for my money were those who didn't follow any rules and did whatever was best for the story to be told.

IMHO ;)


Yes, but let's not forget:  You're a lab monkey from outer space.

kdb


who wears a cape :)


And  evidently red trunks as well!~:s:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on November 26, 2005, 10:22:00 PM
Well, your call, Kurt.  I can't make you do anything -- and vice versa when you think about it.

I am astonished given the prevailing attitude of this community that no one else even wanted to hint at a less gruesome attempt at the superbooks.  Only I had the nerve to ask.  Silly me.

And I still correctly called it over a month ago that you were going to be on a Superman project.  Whether you choose to acknowledge that or not, it's still true.

I should really get around to tallying up the number of true vs false calls I've made over the years to see how they balance out.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on November 26, 2005, 10:32:38 PM
Quote
I am astonished given the prevailing attitude of this community that no one else even wanted to hint at a less gruesome attempt at the superbooks. Only I had the nerve to ask. Silly me.


Yes, you are being silly, Kurt is not an idiot, he can figure out what version of Superman we like best. I don't think it's our place to tell him what he should or should not write. That's his job :)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on November 26, 2005, 10:43:40 PM
Isn't this the same community -- heck all the fan communities are the same in this regard -- that misses the old lettercols that provided fan feedback on the books?

If we can't express our opinions even here, what's the point?

And, yes, Kurt, and anyone else, is free to accept or ignore any and all suggestions.  That doesn't mean we don't have the right to make them.

... Unless I've somehow missed a rule on this ...


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 26, 2005, 10:46:55 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Well, your call, Kurt.  I can't make you do anything -- and vice versa when you think about it.

I am astonished given the prevailing attitude of this community that no one else even wanted to hint at a less gruesome attempt at the superbooks.  Only I had the nerve to ask.  Silly me.


I'm not sure what any of that has to do with me telling Geoff Johns to write more to your tastes.  If you feel that strongly about it -- and you clearly do -- why not send him an e-mail or a letter?

Quote
And I still correctly called it over a month ago that you were going to be on a Superman project.  Whether you choose to acknowledge that or not, it's still true.


Huh?  I don't understand.  Am I supposed to tell Geoff to write more to your tastes because you guessed right?

I guess I'm missing something here -- what does any of this have to do with me declining to tell Geoff to write differently on your behalf?  I declined, but I think I did so politely, and I pointed out ways you can pass on your requests yourself.  So where's the problem?

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Captain Kal on November 26, 2005, 10:52:04 PM
Key on my opening sentence: I'm can't make you do anything.  I'm not even trying in that post.

The part about calling your Superman project is a non sequitur and is irrelevant to making you do anything.  I'm just pleased I read the signs, as it were, and guessed right.  That's all.

At no point was I insisting that Kurt Busiek must do my bidding.

I hope that misunderstanding has been straightened out.

And, yes, if I find out how to contact Mr. Johns I will correspond with him directly.  Again, I can't make you do that for me.

Peace.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: BMK! on November 26, 2005, 10:55:20 PM
Quote


And, yes, if I find out how to contact Mr. Johns I will correspond with him directly.  Again, I can't make you do that for me.



Here, I'll make it easy for you...

www.comicbloc.com


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: dto on November 27, 2005, 05:11:29 AM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
But that leads me to an actual Superman question for Kurt (or at least, the simulacra that Kurt hires to write Conan and post on this board):  What are your favorite Elseworlds / alternate Superman renditions?


Well, the Superboy of Earth-Prime is way up there.

I also tend to think of the "Mr. & Mrs. Superman" series as an "alternate" Superman (yeah, he's actually the original, but by the time that series happened, he was an alternative to the main one), and I just loved it.

Oh, and the Super-Sons.

I can't say I was ever a big Elseworlds guy, and that imprint was very Batman-heavy anyway, but of the official "Elseworlds," I liked SUPERMAN: THE DARK SIDE a lot, and I liked SUPERMAN/TARZAN: SONS OF THE JUNGLE more than a lot of people seemed to (but then, I like Carlos Meglia art).

What else?  I liked the early episodes of "Superman 2020," but it didn't go anywhere, did it?

I liked the world of SUPERMAN FAMILY #200, even if the story itself didn't do anything for me.

I guess I'm a sucker for stories with relatively positive views of what Superman's future could be like, especially if it's got dynastic aspects, or at least kids, and roles for the rest of the Superman family...

kdb


"Superman #200"?  I always wondered how the 2000 elections would have fared if Linda Danvers WAS governor of Florida.  I suspect we'd never see any problems with "butterfly ballots", and Luthor would DEFINITELY not been elected.   :wink:

I also thought it odd that SUPERGIRL would attend Clark and Lois' anniversary, as seen in the group photo.  Most of Clark's aquaintances knew Linda Danvers was a "cousin", though a background check through Midville adoption records might raise questions -- wasn't she supposed to be an orphan?  But why would Supergirl be there?  She was never depicted as a close friend of Clark, though she did appear in some old "Lois Lane" comic books.

And let's not forget Bruce Wayne and Kara's supposed new live-in boyfriend, Richard Grayson.  They are also family guests, though the other party attendees should be wondering how a Metropolis newsman would be so chummy with a Gotham City millionaire.

But I liked Laura Kent, whose superpowers were just beginning to emerge.  And then there was Lois' new baby, a future Superboy?  Too many tantalizing plot threads...

I suppose the mark of a great "Imaginary Story" or Elseworld is whether readers still want to the tale continued EVEN THOUGH they know full well it will likely NEVER be part of mainstream continuity.  And for me, "Superman Family #200" is one of those very few instances where I'd like to revisit events that "never REALLY happened".  Good to know that issue has other fans.   :D


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on November 27, 2005, 07:13:30 AM
Quote
If you have any influence with Johns while working with him -- a must IMHO if you're working together -- would you mind passing two suggestions to him?

One, please, please, please suggest he put some more fun in his stories and stop his dismal trend for more gore and darkness. At the very least, try to have your combined work on Superman be of a less dismal nature, if you can't influence his general comics work.
I took this as just a friendly suggestion (as is stated in the first sentence) that exemplifies what a lot of us think. There's a reason they're called superHEROES.

Quote
Two, please have you or someone else do the comics science and powers instead of him. He doesn't do very well in that area -- If you've seen my criticism posts on that you know what I mean. Heck, you're a bright guy obviously much more qualified than I am so I'm sure you've noted the same things.
I agree with this as many of us find accurate attempts at science important. Especially since a large genre that comics, Superman especially, dip into is Sci-Fi. If you're gonna use bad science you may as well call it magic, and I've never been much of a fan of Deus Ex Machina.

Quote
I've been refraining from responding until now, but I have a confession to make.

It's all MY fault. Blame me.

Geoff Johns and I grew up in the same neck of the woods -- Clarkston, Michigan. We went to the same high school and probably shared a few of the same science teachers. An "idealized" rendition is Clarkston, MI is documented in THE THING: FREAKSHOW (the Kree/Skrull invasion part is pretty accurate, but the bit about cows in Clarkston is bogus... he was probably referring to nearby Ortonville). Geoff was a waiter at a place I would go to every once in awhile with my girlfriend at the time, before she became a psycho hose beast ex-girlfriend.

I should have recognized the spark of comic book greatness that was within him! Instead of tipping him with dollar bills, I should have left him little notes like: "Know and love superstring theory, for it will help you to put Superman's powers in a rational framework." In hindsight, it's clear I should have intercepted him before he did the excreable thing of going to the church of Richard Donner and learning <shudder> storytelling! But NOOOoooo... instead I simply tipped him 15-20% and never bothered to nip his bad pseudoscience in the bud, and now poor victims like Captain Kal have to suffer for it.

I beseech forgiveness!!!
Was that necessary?

Quote
I don't think it's our place to tell him what he should or should not write.
Call me crazy, but aren't writer's salaries paid for at least in majority (not counting advertising revenue) by us buying comics? And if writers don't write in ways that appeal to a fanbase, they tend not to stay writers very long. This comment has no bearing on Kurt (as I've said I'm a fan, and he obviously does a good job to be writing what he does) but it is accurate nontheless.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on November 27, 2005, 08:19:37 AM
Quote from: "RedSunOfKrypton"
Quote
I've been refraining from responding until now, but I have a confession to make.

It's all MY fault. Blame me.

Geoff Johns and I grew up in the same neck of the woods
...
I beseech forgiveness!!!
Was that necessary?


Posting in general on BBSes is rarely _necessary_.  But whenever I see Geoff Johns' name, I think "darn it, I should've known this guy".  There just weren't that many comic book fans right where we grew up, and he was my waiter.  Oh well....

But in the interest of steering things in a Superman direction...  Kurt, from which supporting character's perspective(s) would you think would make for a good Superman story?   I always figured a Superman story told from Steve Lombard's perspective would be amusing.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Superman Forever on November 27, 2005, 11:31:29 AM
Kurt,

Super-heroes as modern myhtology: recently, we have books like Who needs a superhero: finding virtue, vice and what's holy in the comics and Mark Waid's chapter in Superheroes and Philosophy, talking about how the comic book stories help people overcome problems and guide their lives like religious metaphors.

What is your aproach on the matter, as a writer, both in Superman and in other comics like Vengers and Astro City? Do you think abou the impact the super-hero story will have in the person life when writing?? Do you think Superman should have a formative purpose for the youger readers? Wold you write some character whose philosophy you don't agree with?

Thank you.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 27, 2005, 12:42:53 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
But in the interest of steering things in a Superman direction...  Kurt, from which supporting character's perspective(s) would you think would make for a good Superman story?   I always figured a Superman story told from Steve Lombard's perspective would be amusing.


I think it's possible to tell good Superman stories from any supporting character's POV -- and yeah, Lombard's could be fun.

But if I had o pick just one, and it couldn't be one of the usual suspects -- I'd tell a story from Sam Lane's POV.  I have no idea what it would be, but I'm pretty sure he'd have an interesting perspective.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 27, 2005, 12:47:20 PM
Quote from: "Superman Forever"
Kurt,

Super-heroes as modern myhtology: recently, we have books like Who needs a superhero: finding virtue, vice and what's holy in the comics and Mark Waid's chapter in Superheroes and Philosophy, talking about how the comic book stories help people overcome problems and guide their lives like religious metaphors.

What is your aproach on the matter, as a writer, both in Superman and in other comics like Vengers and Astro City?


To tell good stories.  The "modern mythology" part of it will take care of itself, just like ancient myths were the result of many stories being told and the ones that resonated best surviving.  I don't think you can set out to write myth.

Quote
Do you think abou the impact the super-hero story will have in the person life when writing??


Not really, no.  Tell an honest story about a good person, and it'll pick up whatever value it has on the way.

Quote
Do you think Superman should have a formative purpose for the youger readers?


Sure, but I don't think you get to that point by consciously preaching or moralizing in the stories.

Quote
Wold you write some character whose philosophy you don't agree with?


I do it all the time.  I disagree with Conan, I've written the Punisher, the cast of the Power Company (who had a range of philosophies) and more.  And of course, I write the villains in any story I write that has villains in it.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on November 27, 2005, 01:57:33 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
But in the interest of steering things in a Superman direction...  Kurt, from which supporting character's perspective(s) would you think would make for a good Superman story?   I always figured a Superman story told from Steve Lombard's perspective would be amusing.


I think it's possible to tell good Superman stories from any supporting character's POV -- and yeah, Lombard's could be fun.

But if I had o pick just one, and it couldn't be one of the usual suspects -- I'd tell a story from Sam Lane's POV.  I have no idea what it would be, but I'm pretty sure he'd have an interesting perspective.

kdb


BTW, have you read those old stories that were written from the perspective of a piece of Kryptonite?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on November 27, 2005, 02:11:13 PM
My name is Red Kryptonite and let me tell you I was floating through space for a long time and then I ran into Superman and turned him into a 3 eyed Kryptonian babootch.

Lemme tell ya, it's better to be a chunk of Red K compared to what I used to be - a kryptonian ice cube tray! :wink:

Yes I have. :)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 27, 2005, 02:41:28 PM
Quote from: "dto"
I also thought it odd that SUPERGIRL would attend Clark and Lois' anniversary, as seen in the group photo.  Most of Clark's aquaintances knew Linda Danvers was a "cousin", though a background check through Midville adoption records might raise questions -- wasn't she supposed to be an orphan?


Sure, but orphans merely lack living parents.  It's kind of strange for her to be in an orphanage when her cousin is a well-known and presumably decently-paid reporter, but presumably one Clark was established as her cousin, he covered her upkeep in Midvale.

Quote
But why would Supergirl be there?  She was never depicted as a close friend of Clark, though she did appear in some old "Lois Lane" comic books.


Superman, though, is a good friend of Clark's and of Lois's, and Supergirl's connected to him.  So the friendship clearly happened through that connection, in the intervening years.

Quote
They are also family guests, though the other party attendees should be wondering how a Metropolis newsman would be so chummy with a Gotham City millionaire.


Weren't Bruce and Clark established to be friends over the years as well?

Quote
I suppose the mark of a great "Imaginary Story" or Elseworld is whether readers still want to the tale continued EVEN THOUGH they know full well it will likely NEVER be part of mainstream continuity.  And for me, "Superman Family #200" is one of those very few instances where I'd like to revisit events that "never REALLY happened".  Good to know that issue has other fans.   :D


For me, at least, it's not the mark of a great story so much as the mark of an interesting set-up -- I'd like to see more of that future because I'd like to see it explored, but I still didn't think that was more than a passingly-okay story.  The cover hooks me every time, though...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 27, 2005, 02:42:43 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
BTW, have you read those old stories that were written from the perspective of a piece of Kryptonite?


Maybe.  If so, it was so long ago that I don't really remember anything about them...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: DoctorZero on November 27, 2005, 08:39:12 PM
I remember those Red K stories.  Some of them were pretty good.  Didn't the piece of kryptonite start out as a piece of green K?

As for Clark and Linda being cousins, I supposed it was said but to be honest I can't exactly recall this being that established.  I would hardly think of anyone raising eyebrows over the fact that Clark didn't take Linda in, however.  He was a young, adult single newsman.  His hours would be erratic and late at times.  Linda was a 16 year old girl.  I'm certain if questions were asked that Clark would be able to explain why his bachelor apartment and his career wouldn't fit raising a 16 year old girl.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on November 27, 2005, 10:50:57 PM
Quote from: "DoctorZero"
I remember those Red K stories.  Some of them were pretty good.  Didn't the piece of kryptonite start out as a piece of green K?


Yup and then it passed through that darn space cloud...


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: MatterEaterLad on November 27, 2005, 11:20:16 PM
Those darn space clouds...someone should be pointing the Hubble at those guys...

I just hope that no one wants to come up with a "comics science" explanation for them... 8)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on November 27, 2005, 11:26:00 PM
Alchemy by way of Circe and as we all know magic can affect Superman! :wink:

Just like Red Kryptonite in strange and unusual ways..


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: CRISISHATER on November 29, 2005, 05:17:27 PM
Kurt, I will buy any Super book you  write after Astro City and Secret Identitiy. I pray, that somehow, The Earth-Prime Superboy will be translated into story possibilities that include Clark Kent who is also Superboy. Why can't he be incontinuity for at least a year "realtime". He could have a lot of adventures in the future  with the Legion in that block of time....


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on November 29, 2005, 06:59:46 PM
Quote from: "CRISISHATER"
Kurt, I will buy any Super book you  write after Astro City and Secret Identitiy.


Thanks!

Quote
I pray, that somehow, The Earth-Prime Superboy will be translated into story possibilities that include Clark Kent who is also Superboy. Why can't he be incontinuity for at least a year "realtime". He could have a lot of adventures in the future  with the Legion in that block of time....


At this point, the future of Superboy-Prime is known only to a few, and whether or not I'm one of 'em, I wouldn't be able to say anything.

But I do like young-Clark-in-Smallville stories, so I'm with you at least there...

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on November 29, 2005, 08:39:31 PM
It should be noted that DC Direct will be releasing a Superboy-Prime action figure with the new costume design. Now if DC is doing this just because it's a cool design or because he is staying in the DC universe after IC, is not know as of yet.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kuuga on November 29, 2005, 09:45:21 PM
Quote from: "CRISISHATER"
Kurt, I will buy any Super book you  write after Astro City and Secret Identitiy. I pray, that somehow, The Earth-Prime Superboy will be translated into story possibilities that include Clark Kent who is also Superboy. Why can't he be incontinuity for at least a year "realtime". He could have a lot of adventures in the future  with the Legion in that block of time....



I just hope they don't kill him off in some gorefest or villify him. But he does commit the crime of being likable and personable so I guess he's prolly in for it to.    :cry:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: JulianPerez on December 02, 2005, 11:32:44 PM
Busiek, you cheeky monkey, I KNEW there was some secret reason for you put-putting around the forum threads, and it wasn't because of our sparkling personalities, either.

Congratulations on your assignment to Superman!

You'd better believe I'm buying this thing. I was looking forward to a Busiek-written JLA, but a Busiek-written SUPERMAN is a pretty freakin' good consolation prize! It's like a dream come true.

Hopefully, after IDENTITY CRISIS, Superman will have his shinola together and be much more like the classic character that we all love.

The reason I started this thread to begin with is because I think you'd be able to write a well-characterized Luthor. The thing I love about Luthor is that he was a very sympathetic, tragic villain thanks to his treatment by Elliot S! Maggin in the 1970s-80s. A characterization that was lost post-Maggin. You have the ability to generate sympathy for characters, whether it be the Juggernaut in AVENGERS #26 or Steeljack in "Tarnished Angel."

Mark Waid, in his BIRTHRIGHT, had the right idea about Luthor: make him a misanthrope isolated and alienated from everybody else that is very sympathetic, isolated from others by his intelligence the same way Hugo Danner was isolated from others by his strength in GLADIATOR. Though personally, I thought Waid's Luthor characterization smacked of teenage histrionics. One can't imagine why Luthor was still making a fuss about all that teenage stuff as an adult.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on December 03, 2005, 12:00:10 PM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Busiek, you cheeky monkey, I KNEW there was some secret reason for you put-putting around the forum threads, and it wasn't because of our sparkling personalities, either.


It really was because I stumbled across the site in a Google Blog Search, honest.

Quote
Congratulations on your assignment to Superman!


Thanks -- and to all who've mentioned it.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on December 03, 2005, 12:08:48 PM
And for those who didnt  KB (like me) - Congrats!

Have fun! :s:


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Super Monkey on December 03, 2005, 01:38:43 PM
It was fate or just one heck of a coincidence!

Note the title of this thread, then much later he gets the job :)

Maybe DC was the ones reading this one... :shock:  I guess they wanted to figure out how to get us to buy more than just TPBs of old stuff. :)


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Continental Op on December 03, 2005, 05:53:25 PM
(Choke!) How ironic!


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: JulianPerez on December 06, 2005, 12:15:10 AM
Perhaps this isn't the right place to post this, but since it was brought up: I do like some of Geoff Johns's concepts, and I dislike others.

One idea he came up with that really, really bugged me when I first was told it, but I later saw the sense in it, was the concept of the "emotional spectrum," with green as willpower and yellow as fear. This made sense to me because at long last the weakness to yellow wasn't arbitrary. The ring was weak against yellow for a REASON. Previously, it felt like the weakness to yellow was pulled out of thin air, as if the Guardians could have made the ring vulnerable to left-handed Lithuanian lumberjacks if they had felt like it.

If Yellow is fear, then suddenly so much about Sinestro makes a lot of sense. Sinestro's dominant personality trait as a villain is his total lack of subtlety. He comes into your space sector with a gigantic yellow battleship that blots out the sun staffed by thousands of Thunderers. He immediately resorts to terrifying and visceral displays with his power ring. Sinestro is capable of planning, but he's in his element when he's blowing up suns. If yellow is fear and the ability to cause fear, it fits in perfectly with the behavior patterns and tactics of this character.

I also like the fact that he explained that Parallax was an alien creature that possessed Hal Jordan. This is a great idea for several reasons. Firstly it covers over the eggregious lapse in characterization that Parallax is. It's impossible to imagine the gutsy HAL JORDAN, the Greatest Green Lantern of them all, making the choices that Parallax did under ANY circumstances. If Jordan was "possessed," it also means that Hal Jordan is not morally responsible for his actions as Parallax. This means that we can just have Hal Jordan back to being a hero and not affect his personality in a catastrophic and penitent way, as well as having us able to accept Hal Jordan again, because all those bad things weren't "really" done by "our" Hal.

One thing I dislike that Geoff Johns did, was the introduction of Mordru into the modern DC Universe. Thank Kirby that nobody has thought to use Mordru again in an issue of POWER OF SHAZAM or BIRDS OF PREY. Hey, for an encore, why doesn't Johns have the Legion of Super-Heroes fight the Catwoman? Or how about Spider-Man fighting Mephisto? Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it ought to be. Catwoman isn't a Legion villain, Mordru doesn't guest spot in JSA, and Mephisto has no business fighting Spider-Man. The fact that the regal and aged Mordru was "sexied up" with a "Gen X" van dyke beard and washboard abs, AND was addressed by some goofy LORD OF THE RINGS title like "the Dark Lord" made his appearance all the more embarassing.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Psybertrack on December 13, 2005, 02:10:45 AM
maybe its just me but the yellow flaw sinestro deal storyline drives me crazy. Talk about double talk. Yellow is fear?  huh?  a creature trapped in the power battery, c'mon. I like Hal Jordan GL but man that comeback story really was very confusing and nonsensical.   and now were supposed to revise our opinion that Hal was responsible for his own action, but at the same time he wasn't responsible. gobblegeegook.

 
a guy kills a bunch of his fellow corpsman and than pleads the yellow made me do it and gets off and all is forgiven.  I just couldn't get into that story but I did read the issues.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Psybertrack on December 13, 2005, 02:18:40 AM
I realy loved "Secret Identity".   It reads even better if you get it all in one sitting. The installments and the intervels detracted  from it.
Still I would love to see a sequel to S.I.  Any chance . Or maybe a similar vein on Batman or Captain Marvel?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on December 13, 2005, 11:55:42 AM
Kurt,

Does Dan Didio think that Action Comics is a war book?
Will there be strong ties / followup to the JLA arc you did?


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on December 13, 2005, 12:11:50 PM
Quote from: "Psybertrack"
I realy loved "Secret Identity".   It reads even better if you get it all in one sitting. The installments and the intervels detracted  from it.
Still I would love to see a sequel to S.I.  Any chance . Or maybe a similar vein on Batman or Captain Marvel?


Something along those lines is in the works.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on December 13, 2005, 12:12:57 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Does Dan Didio think that Action Comics is a war book?


Porn.

Quote
Will there be strong ties / followup to the JLA arc you did?


Only time, she gonna tell.

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kuuga on December 13, 2005, 12:30:21 PM
Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Does Dan Didio think that Action Comics is a war book?


Porn.



Somehow that doesn't surprise me at all.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Psybertrack on December 29, 2005, 03:17:45 AM
I was just re reading JLA/Avengers #3.  EXCELLENT. Good writing and the art work was very detailed. The story was so good I read it again and  again. It must have been difficult to write a story with that many characters in it.


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Uncle Mxy on January 08, 2006, 09:07:24 PM
Kurt,

Say, how's the porn business doing?  I'm glad to hear that you're putting the action in Action Comics.  

Owing to an outdated Christmas list I oopsed in sending out, I received SUPERMAN: SECRET IDENTITY for Christmas, even though I already own it.  Rather than re-gift it or grab another Busiek product (which is difficult, as there's not much Busiek stuff I want that I don't already own), I decided to break your heart and grab something different -- INVINCIBLE: ULTIMATE COLLECTION Vol. 1.  I figured you wouldn't mind, since you wrote the foreword for the first TPB.  But apparently, your foreword isn't good enough for the hardbound book and instead they have this Bendis guy, who can't even figure out the distinction between a thought bubble and talking under one's breath.  What gives?!  :)

Anyways, hopefully you had a happy holidays.

-Uncle Mxy


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Kurt Busiek on January 08, 2006, 10:26:26 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Kurt,

Say, how's the porn business doing?


It has its ins and outs.

Quote
I decided to break your heart and grab something different -- INVINCIBLE: ULTIMATE COLLECTION Vol. 1.  I figured you wouldn't mind, since you wrote the foreword for the first TPB.  But apparently, your foreword isn't good enough for the hardbound book and instead they have this Bendis guy, who can't even figure out the distinction between a thought bubble and talking under one's breath.


Bastards!

I thought they'd included all the intros in there somewhere.  Ah well.  Mighty fine stuff, either way!

kdb


Title: Re: Who can save Superman now? KURT BUSIEK!
Post by: Genis Vell on January 09, 2006, 04:15:59 AM
Hi from an Italian fan, Kurt!
I hope to see Superboy Prime again, I always liked that character... And your tribute to his story, SECRET IDENTITY, is wonderful. I have read it last year and I loved it... Thank you for this comic book (and the others: I'm a big fan of your run on AVENGERS).