Superman Through the Ages! Forum

I've been looking around this great website again for the first time in a long time. I re-read the article about The Bronze Age Superman (http://superman.nu/a/History/VersionIV.php) and it still bugs me where it says that by the end of the Sand-Superman Saga, Superman's power had been reduced by a third.

I never mastered Calculus, but I can see this doesn't add up.

On page 7 of "The Ultimate Battle," the Sand-Superman is walloped by the war-demon quarrmer, and he thinks: "It's too powerful! It possesses at least two-thirds of Superman's strength -- while I have only the remaining third!"

On page 14 of the story, the war-demon has broken into the hospital and grabbed Superman. Upon physical contact, there is a power-drain from the war-demon into Superman. By the last panel of this page, Superman is thinking, "We're absolute equals..."

This means that the three characters -- Superman, the sand-creature, and the war-demon -- now each possess one third of Superman's power.

On page 16 Superman and the sand-creature have driven the war-demon to the dimensional gateway, and its spirit returns to Quarrm, leaving the war-demon body behind as an inanimate shell.

Right. Either:

(A) The spirit of the war-demon left our dimension with its third of Superman's power, or the power was released and merely dissipated into the environment, leaving Superman and the sand-creature with a third each; or

(B) The spirit of the war-demon, during departure, allowed its third of Superman's power to be drained back into Superman and the sand-creature, ie. half went to Superman and half went to the sand-creature...

Either way, as the Man of Steel confronts the Sand-Superman after the war-demon's departure, they each possess an equal amount of super-power.

By page 22, the sand-creature is returning to Quarrm with his share of Superman's original power. If (A), Superman is left with one third of his original power, which means he has lost two thirds of his power. If (B), and the war-demon's strength drained into Superman and the sand-creature, the Sand-Superman took with him half of Superman's original power, meaning Superman has lost half of his power.

There is no way Superman's power has been reduced by one third, as stated by the article.

I agree, Aldous, that was a bit ambiguous.   I also was led to believe he was half his former self.

I recall a letter dealing with this question back in the day and ENB clarified it somewhat - I'll have to see if I can find it and post it.

I've done a lot of editing and rewriting on that article in the past.

If you guys get this detail figured out, I'll give it another round.

:s:

Problem: define Superman's full powers. How powerful is powerful?
Then cut it by a third or a half or whatever.

Oh he cant bully a sun but can still move the Earth?

Id say the Quarmmers effect was temporary at best (maybe a little longer than Red K?) and any guesstimate to how much was diminished was just that - a guess...and let's leave it like that IMHO>

The one who really cut Superman's powers was not the Quarmmer but the DC editorial board circa 1986. :roll:

Then theres Billy and his Lynx............. :shock:

OK - it took me a while, but here it goes...

The letters in Superman #247 had several different interpretations as to how much his powers were reduced, but although ENB acknowledges this, he cops out of an answer:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Osgood39/Superman247LC.jpg)


However, a reader named Matt Graham refused to let ENB off the hook.  In the letter column in issue 251, he comes back at him with reasoning remarkably similar to the one Aldous just laid out, and ENB finally renders a verdict that 1/2 is the final answer:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Osgood39/Superman251LC.jpg)


So there you go!

Very cool and thanks as usual for the archive...I guess that's as good as it gets...

Though of course the question remains what does half mean?

I did like the reader complaining about half the powers for twice the price...now THAT'S quantifying stuff! 8)

Well, as it says on the Bronze Age write-up on this very site, how much is half of infinity?  SA/BA Superman was pretty much unlimited in his power and this was even mentioned directly in a few stories.  The Jimmy Olsen story with the android Sharla mentions how the limitless energy of Superman overloaded a bio-energy vampire.  The fake twin Kor-El (really the Parasite in disguise) story describes Kal's otherwise limitless might shrinking with every blow to free the imposter from a kryptonite asteroid.

I've always interpreted that to mean that against non-super (i.e. non-transfinite) beings/matter/objects, he was functionally omnipotent.  The difference only showed up when confronting other super-beings.

Anyway, I've always seen Superman as a peak specimen of Kryptonian humanity esp. after the "The Greatest Green Lantern of Them All!" story.  He'd be at least twice to a dozen times as strong as a normal Kryptonian in the first place.  Halving his power would at best make him a peer of a normal Kryptonian.

IMHO

As Mr Bridwell says, "Hold it! Hold it!"  :)

Osgood, thank you for going to the trouble of posting those letter pages. I have to say it is one of the things I regret, growing up with reprints downunder, that I never had access to the letter columns in the DC Comics of the day.  :(  It was the forum of its time, but I didn't have the privilege of reading the thoughts and opinions of other DC fans.

It's fascinating to read these letters of a bygone era! I see what you mean about Matt Graham's calculations. What an extraordinarily intelligent fellow!  :wink:  

I see Matt decides on a third, while Mr Bridwell decides on half. I feel a little better now (ie. vindicated), in the sense that other readers also felt the need to question the extent of Superman's loss.

I don't agree with those of you who are dismissive of attempts to discuss Superman's power levels. DC traditionally always treated his powers as independent phenomena in themselves. In "Kneel to Your Conqueror, Superman," Caesar drains Superman's powers one by one, eg. strength, invulnerability, vision, etc. In "The Kids Who Stole Superboy's Powers" his abilities are likewise drained and divided up. In so many stories, Superman's powers are portrayed as finite and potentially separate from the big guy himself. It is quite obvious super-strength is a different energy to flying power, and that each power can be severed from Superman's physical and mental being.

I find the whole question of his ultimate power level, and the inherent "separateness" of his super-powers fascinating.

And no, I don't believe his power is infinite, if even because of his own psychological inhibitions.

Question: What had the most limiting effect on Superman's power at the conclusion of the Sand-Superman Saga? The fact that the sand-creature stole half (or a third) of his power -- or the fact that Superman had been completely humbled and cowed into believing that yes, ultimate power is ultimately corrupting? His most important defeat in the entire saga was a psychological one.

Another story referencing the separateness of Superman's powers -- both from each other and from his own person -- was "The Secret of the Eighth Superman".  A Barnum-fictional-version learns the secret of animating puppets as independent pseudo-lifeforms.  His father linked his puppets to his own life force so they died when he died.  The less-scrupulous son decided to link seven puppets with Superman's super-powers: super-breath, super-strength, super-speed, flight, super-hearing, super-vision, and invulnerability (not in that order).  As Superman exerted a power with a puppet present, he lost that power to that puppet.  He used his last power, flight, to track them to the circus showman.  The showman's goal was to steal all Kal's powers, transfer them to himself, then use them to become the greatest showman on Earth. (Interestingly, all the puppets could fly even before stealing a power, not just the flight puppet.)

Superman won and regained his powers when he disguised himself as Farnum.  He was able to trick the puppets into beaming his powers back into his body by using the one power Farnum ignored: super-ventriloquism.  Said power let him emulate Farnum's voice perfectly.  So, Farnum messed-up by missing that eighth power, hence the title of the story.  It must also be noted that super-coordination was also referenced in that tale but he needed his speed and strength to control it.

On a related note, Ultra Boy, a Superboy/Superman derivative, had powers that could only be used one-at-a-time.

Not to diss on Ultraboy, but I kind of liked it when he had the mongo vision alone, proclaiming one power at a time seemed a bit forced...and what good is super strength if you shatter every bone in your body using it because you don't have invulnerability?

It must be noted, Aldous, that what Superman learned in the Sandman Saga had more to do with the dangers of his power being misused as opposed to him being specifically unworthy to wield it.

When he was at full power at the start of the storyline, he was fully in control and had no moral or judgement lapses.

The time he did foul-up at full power was due to brain damage incurred while he was an ordinary mortal that was made permanent with the return of his invulnerability.  A non-brain-damaged Superman would not have been a danger and that was abundantly proven in that very storyline.

I guess the lesson was if he were ever not in perfect mental and moral health, the brain-damaged actions might be an indication of what he'd be capable of (e.g. ruining an entire water system to fix a single leaky faucet).

I remember reading in an old lettercol back then about what the depowering really meant.

The editor, probably Julius Schwartz, replied that Superman could still juggle planets but he needed to exert more effort to do so.  He pretty much could do anything he used to do but needed more effort.  The one area where he was seriously different was with his super-speed.  Pre-Sandman, he could just keep up with the Flash.  Post-Sandman, he couldn't do so anymore so the Flash was far and away the Fastest Man Alive.

Of course, the depowering didn't last and subsequent Pre Crisis races proved they were still pretty even for speed.

I just wish I could remember what issue I read that lettercol in.  My copy from decades past is certainly in some landfill rotting somewhere. :(

EDIT:  Oh yeah!  The relevant lettercols were scanned earlier on this very thread.  Much thanks for that! :)

I agree, Captain... There is no question that Superman is the only man worthy of having so much power -- and it is this quality that makes him Superman, more so than the powers themselves.

But...



I think there is more to it than this (as I more or less said in my previous post).

In the first part of the Saga, there is a fantastic quote from Superman: "I've never felt so confident... knowing that there's absolutely nothing that can harm me! Morgan Edge was wrong! Power isn't corrupting... It's freeing me -- to do unlimited good!"

Actually, that is probably my favourite Superman quote ever.

In the last part of the Saga, Superman is saying: "No! I've seen the dangers [of] having too much power... I am human -- I can make mistakes! I don't want -- or need -- more..."

The crisis with the brain damage is clearly past, and most unlikely to be repeated. I don't think Superman has this specific crisis in the back of his mind when he is talking to Ching at the end. He has had a complete change of attitude from his earlier "arrogance" (if it can be called that).

It is not so much that Superman is unworthy of having so much power (he is not), but that he now believes he is unworthy. Big difference.

I always thought that the quote at the end was in reference to the final battle against his duplicate, in which they unwittingly destroyed the Earth.

This battle, of course, never happened -- Supes was just hypnotised by Ching into thinking it had, and he surely wouldn't have been so careless in a real fight. But it made the point, which I think was that brain damage or no, we all make mistakes.

Are you sure about that, Gary? For Superman, it was real. Perception is everything...

Although Ching gave them a vision of what could happen, it was driven by their own decisions, surely -- otherwise Superman wouldn't have been competely shocked to find out it hadn't happened. He believed he was in a real fight.

Maybe the jury is out on that. :|

I'd say the jury is out and won't be back in. :) True, Superman believed it was real, but whether his actions were driven by his own ideas or by Ching's suggestions is an open question. Though it seems like a bit of a no-brainer to me. I mean, Superman accidentally destroying the world? The proof of that particular pudding is in the eating. He's faced opponents at his own level of physical power before and still always managed to be reasonably careful about collateral damage.

He even faced foes even more powerful than he and yes this was in the Sliver Age folks, and still manage not to destroy the Earth in the process. There were a lot of logic and plot holes in that tale, which is why it was re-conned as soon as it was over like it never happen. So the sandman tale goes in the same pile as the infamous "The Master Mesmerizer of Metropolis" even if it is more fondly remembered.

We are talking about a guy whose punches could easily shatter a planet, withstand supernovae, and casually blow out a star like a birthday candle.

Surely such a powerful being cutting loose on Earth with like powered beings should easily destroy our poor planet -- unless they were being careful not to do so both via how they directed their attacks and by absorbing the collateral energies themselves via the principles that enabled them to generate seemingly-unbounded power from nothingness in the first place.

I mean, if he really whacked a guy/object with a planet-smasher, that energy has to go somewhere (if he/they didn't neutralize it).  Our punches end up as shockwaves (weak ones) and waste heat.  His super-punches would casually vapourize our planet -- even if they didn't hit the planet directly but from the ambient atmospheric effects of the impact.

Yeah, as Gary insightfully pointed out, he normally does have enough wisdom and control to avoid collateral damage in a super-fight.  That does lead us to believe I Ching was messing with Superman's mind to force him to come to that conclusion.

What's the deal with the 'permanent brain damage' anyway?

In most other stories where Superman is injured, his body super-heals itself to its natural state.

He damaged his leg cartilage jumping out of a red sun sphere of Dr. Light's once, and his legs instantly repaired themselves.

He was forced by Please-Power to punch himself and his bruises healed in a matter of minutes.

Duplicate Boy healed from injuries inflicted by the Persuader's atomic axe by Saturn Girl making him duplicate Superboy's invulnerability and healing powers.

That's just off the top of my head.

Post Crisis, he's similarly healed pretty rapidly a number of times.