Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Superman Comic Books! => Superman! => Topic started by: JulianPerez on August 19, 2005, 01:19:40 AM



Title: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: JulianPerez on August 19, 2005, 01:19:40 AM
This forum, by the way, is wonderful, because here I can confirm obscure, half-forgotten memories by savvier people that have more comics than I do.

What was Klukor, the Kryptonian Martial Art?

I know there WAS one and it had that name. What did it look like?

Did any significant characters know this style (Superman, Supergirl, etc.)?

Were its origins ever explained? Was there anything terribly special about it?


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: Captain Kal on August 19, 2005, 01:52:00 AM
It's spelled "Klurkor".

It is indeed a Kryptonian martial art as you stated, though less responsible writers originally called it a Kryptonian form of Karate.

Pre Crisis Lois Lane learned it while on a visit to Kandor.  That suggests at least some Kandorians are versed in it.

I saw nothing to suggest it was any better than an Earth-based martial art like Kung Fu.  Of course, Lois probably couldn't be considered a master so the evidence I saw may not count here for real comparisons.  Lois seemed pretty unbeatable against unpowered opponents when she wasn't taken unawares, but she never faced any serious combatants nor powered foes.  She had a certain Bodyguard of Steel for those occasions. ;)

FYI, in Waid's new LSH book, at least two Naltorian presci-cops have added Klurkor to their martial arts skills.  As a side note, the Rokynians have been referenced several times in Waid's Legion, too (Rokyn was the name the Pre Crisis Kandorians gave to their new planet instead of New Krypton; 'Ro' is the possessive form of the god Rao and 'Kyn' means gift in ancient Kryptonese so it means "Gift of Rao".)

Also FYI, Faora Hu-Ul was the master of the Kryptonian martial art of Horu-Kanu. She was so accomplished at it that Kryptonian police could not face her on the ground and were forced to shoot her down from the air.  Given that evidence, Horu-Kanu seems significantly more devastating than any known Earth martial art. (OTOH, she could've been the Kryptonian equivalent of the LSH Karate Kid, but I somehow doubt that given her other showings.)


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: JulianPerez on August 19, 2005, 08:30:10 AM
Thanks for the info, CaptainKal.

Somehow I expected something a little more exotic, under the "everything from Krypton is more impressive than on Earth" law. They can't just have Dinosaurs; oh no, they've got to have dinosaurs that SHOW YOUR THOUGHTS. On Earth, volcanoes kill people; on Krypton, they shoot out gold. ...You know, I'm *glad* Krypton's destroyed! Otherwise, it would be like having a snooty neighbor with a better looking wife than you who owns a lawnmower you can ride on. And with that whole Kryptonian "greater capacity for good" business, they'd probably be really, really nice to you all the time, which really makes it worse, doesn't it?  :D

Here's a thought: have any non-Kandorians known Klurkor, apart from the aforementioned future precops (paging Phillip K. Dick...)? Because the name "Klurkor" sounds like "Kandor;" it may be likely that Klurkor may be a regional, Kandor-specific Martial Art. This would make sense; usually Martial Arts remain closely tied to the place that creates them (except for things like Karate that housewives in Nebraska learn).

I'm not an expert BY ANY MEANS in Martial Arts history, but my understanding of the development of weaponless Martial Arts from watching the History Channel, is that Martial Arts styles usually develop in situations of social oppression where there is resistance. Karate for instance, was developed by Okinawan peasants that were not allowed to carry weapons. It might be interesting to know the story - in Kryptonian history, of the development of Klurkor.

Knowing Kryptonian history, it was probably an "El" that invented it, too...  :lol:


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: Gary on August 19, 2005, 10:44:23 AM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Somehow I expected something a little more exotic, under the "everything from Krypton is more impressive than on Earth" law. They can't just have Dinosaurs; oh no, they've got to have dinosaurs that SHOW YOUR THOUGHTS. On Earth, volcanoes kill people; on Krypton, they shoot out gold. ...You know, I'm *glad* Krypton's destroyed! Otherwise, it would be like having a snooty neighbor with a better looking wife than you who owns a lawnmower you can ride on. And with that whole Kryptonian "greater capacity for good" business, they'd probably be really, really nice to you all the time, which really makes it worse, doesn't it?  :D


Yeah, it'd be like living next door to this guy:
(http://www.garykleppe.org/flan-ders.gif)

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: Captain Kal on August 19, 2005, 10:49:14 AM
It would be nice if Klurkor had some exotic, special skills and effectiveness to jibe with other Kryptonian superiority.  The problem with that is the only known character that routinely used it was Lois Lane, and her theme was to be the eternal damsel-in-distress.  It just wouldn't do to have Lois so capable that she never needed to be rescued anymore by Superman.

The only out here, in my mind, is the mere days or weeks at most that Lois had to learn Klurkor were enough to make her able to stand-up to most normal human foes without martial arts training.  I don't know of any fighting discipline that yields such high results in such a short training period.  Arguably, a true expert/master at Klurkor with years or a lifetime of training would be far above any Earth martial artist if we extrapolate from that.

The truly superior Kryptonian martial arts were exemplified by Horu-Kanu and the Dwalu warriors (who could take on a super-powered Kryptonian even without their own powers activated or not).


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: lonewolf23k on August 19, 2005, 05:48:16 PM
It's doubtful that Krypton had a single martial art, when Earth alone has nearly thousands of different martial art styles, each with it's own unique forms and special techniques.  If there's such a thing as Kryptonian Karate, then there are probably Kryptonian forms of Judo, Kendo, Boxing, Wrestling, Tai-chi...  

...And let's not even go into Kung Fu, which even on Earth has hundreds of variations..


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: MatterEaterLad on August 19, 2005, 09:32:07 PM
Actually, since they have nails rather than claws, it seems that "thought beasts" were mammals rather than dinosaurs, on the line of titanotheres...

I still wonder why their thoughts were from a third person perspective, but its comics and I won't embowel the writers for it...


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: VRLowKey on August 19, 2005, 11:49:17 PM
I vaguely recall that Klurkor was supposed to take advantage of the advanced strength and agility that Kryptonians had beyond the powers under a yellow sun.  Lois Lane was supposed to have learned enough to use, although I would think the main advantage over, say, a Kung Fu brown-belt would be surprise, since the moves wouldn't look like anything from Earth.


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: Gangbuster on August 20, 2005, 12:02:37 AM
Quote
Yeah, it'd be like living next door to this guy:
(http://www.garykleppe.org/flan-ders.gif)

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)


Nice job, with the Krypto-Flanders!


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on August 21, 2005, 03:22:12 AM
Hahaha Krypto-Flanders...

Anyway onto K-Martial Arts, I imagine with their superior mental capacity, they wouldn't need martial arts, or that their martial art would be like the chess algorithm. Chess computers/programs work by plotting out every possible move and counter move in any given consideration, into a large tree of calculations, it's likely that the Kryptonians could process moves like this in martial arts. All they'd need is superior processing power and in theory they could beat any opponent, by plotting out every move and counter movement. It'd be a lot more complex than the chess algorithm but work along the same lines.

EDIT: Also with their superior learning capabilities, they could master the arts of reading people (body language, facial expressions, voice tones etc.) very quickly, this would be aided greatly by their superior senses.


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: dto on August 23, 2005, 02:21:46 PM
Interesting discussion here...

Unarmed hand-to-hand combat is naturally the oldest form of fighting, and techniques to improve its efficiency stretch back to antiquity.  Eventually skills first taught for warfare became the basis of competitive sports, such as Greco-Roman wrestling.  (In fact, most if not all of the ancient Olympic games had martial origins -- discus, javelin throw, etc.)

Krypton was probably no different during its early history, as we've seen stories of primative Kryptonian tribes fighting among each other and against technologically-superior alien invaders.  The ancestors of Klurkor and Horu-Kanu might have been developed during this time, perhaps under circumstances similar to Okinawa, as JulianPerez pointed out -- the ban on weaponry did not extend to everyday items and farming tools, so a simple walking stick became the "bo", and the rice flail shorted into "nunchaku".  One could imagine "The Headband Warriors of Krypton!" (http://superman.nu/tales2/headband/) also resorting to martial arts.

As Krypton became more civilized, traditional unarmed fighting might have waned as a combat skill but was retained as a competitive sport and a means to promote physical fitness and (according to many Chinese-based martial arts) spiritual well-being.  And then there were personal protection issues -- Krypton still had crime, but weaponry carried by private civilians seems to be rare.  Perhaps Kryptonian society frowned on this "barbaric" practice (betraying a lack of trust in fellow Kryptonians), or perhaps personal weapons were restricted by law.  But Klurklor might have been allowed as an acceptable means of self-defense.  (The more-lethal Horu-Kanu was probably another matter altogether.)  

I suspect Horu-Kanu was a more combat-oriented martial art, designed to take down opponents quickly and decisively.  It was designed to hurt, disable and kill, so it was either taught only to military and law-enforcement personnel, or banned completely.  Kluklor might have been modified to stress non-violence, such as judo is a "gentler" form of ju-jutsu without the latter's striking moves, while aikido is purely defensive in nature.  On Krypton, both Horu-Kanu and Kluklor were probably no more devastating than their martial arts counterparts on Earth.  But a yellow sun-charged Horu-Kanu master like Faora Hu-Ul would be a dire threat.

It's interesting that Kryptonian physiology was so similar to Earthlings that Kluklor blocks, nerve locks, striking blows and throws could be used on both species without modification.  You'd think there would be differences in nevre bundle locations, or the range in motion of some body joints.  Lois Lane was probably so effective in Kluklor because her moves might not have resembled conventional Earth martial arts, so this confusion probably gave her the element of surprise.  However, a martial arts master might begin to decipher Lois' techniques after intense observation, so that advantage tends to vanish in a prolonged fight.

I suspect that since Kluklor is so rarely practiced on Earth, one might even throw Superman... ONCE.  But after he gets over his initial surprise, you'll never get a second chance before he ties you up like a pretzel!   :wink:


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: Captain Kal on August 23, 2005, 02:33:51 PM
Interesting aside on alien combat techniques vs Kryptonians:

In a World's Finest team-up with Hawkman, the Tempter manipulates the Hawks, a Kandorian scientist, some Kandorian henchmen, and Superman himself in a bid to tempt Superman into becoming a mass murderer.

In that book, what was noteworthy was how Katar effortlessly disposed of the three Kandorians single-handed.  He noted even super-powered types could be thrown if handled with leverage and surprise.  He followed-up by evening things up by snatching the Kryptonian sapper weapons, turning them on the super-men, thereby reducing them closer to his own power levels.  The Kandorians were so thoroughly defeated and intimidated by Hawkman's attack that the scientist was reduced to fearful gibbering at the end of the fight.  Thanagarian combat techniques seem to have evened the score to some degree for Katar.


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: Gangbuster on August 23, 2005, 05:39:37 PM
Just want everyone to know that this thread has inspired me to change my signature line......


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: MatterEaterLad on August 23, 2005, 08:19:02 PM
Quote from: "dto"
I suspect that since Kluklor is so rarely practiced on Earth, one might even throw Superman... ONCE.  But after he gets over his initial surprise, you'll never get a second chance before he ties you up like a pretzel!   :wink:


See what happened when Karate Kid met Superboy when trying out for the Legion...


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: dto on August 24, 2005, 01:29:15 AM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"

In that book, what was noteworthy was how Katar effortlessly disposed of the three Kandorians single-handed.  He noted even super-powered types could be thrown if handled with leverage and surprise.


Certain martial arts (such as judo and aikido) take advantage of an opponent's momentum.  By shifting away from the opponent's intended line of attack and then redirecting this motion into a throw or takedown, one literally uses a foe's actions against himself.  And yes, it IS true that the bigger and faster they are, the harder they will fall.   :wink:   The trick is to keep the opponent off-balanced and not get into a situation when you have to match raw strength-on-strength.


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: Captain Kal on August 24, 2005, 09:33:06 AM
Quote from: "MatterEaterLad"
Quote from: "dto"
I suspect that since Kluklor is so rarely practiced on Earth, one might even throw Superman... ONCE.  But after he gets over his initial surprise, you'll never get a second chance before he ties you up like a pretzel!   :wink:


See what happened when Karate Kid met Superboy when trying out for the Legion...


Hey, does anyone have scans of the epic encounter?  I only know of it from hearsay and editorial comments.


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: MatterEaterLad on August 24, 2005, 12:42:55 PM
I wish I had any of my comics from growing up...

It was Adventure # 346, and Karate Kid used classic quickeness and turning his opponents strength against him, before Superboy finally caught him and gave him a super vertical spin, one wall of the try out room was toast...


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: Super Monkey on August 24, 2005, 12:46:54 PM
Quote from: "MatterEaterLad"
I wish I had any of my comics from growing up...

It was Adventure # 346, and Karate Kid used classic quickeness and turning his opponents strength against him, before Superboy finally caught him and gave him a super vertical spin, one wall of the try out room was toast...


Adventure Comics #346 was reprinted in Legion Archives vol. 5


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on August 25, 2005, 08:40:43 AM
Quote
Certain martial arts (such as judo and aikido) take advantage of an opponent's momentum. By shifting away from the opponent's intended line of attack and then redirecting this motion into a throw or takedown, one literally uses a foe's actions against himself. And yes, it IS true that the bigger and faster they are, the harder they will fall. Wink The trick is to keep the opponent off-balanced and not get into a situation when you have to match raw strength-on-strength.


I wrote a good 10 paragraphs on this just now, and some of my own experiences and then realised "This is a Superman forum idiot" hahaha. Talk about hijacking.  :lol:


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: Captain Kal on August 25, 2005, 03:34:15 PM
For those interested in reading the actual WF story with Hawkman beating-up three super-powered Kandorians ...

World's Finest #209 Feb. 1972 (SUPERMAN AND HAWKMAN). "Meet the Tempter ... and Die"

http://www.dcindexes.com/database/story-details.php?storyid=8344

I'm afraid I can't find an online version of the book, only those references and cover shot.  I guess you'll have to track down and buy the thing.

Superman was similarly taking on these guys in mid-air using Judo moves Batman taught him elsewhere in the book.  It's also noteworthy that sapper weapons that would have killed him in Kandor only stunned him in mid-air and Superman still could hover in that state.  The Kandorian henchmen remarked that if that blast didn't kill him, none ever would.  That's in keeping with Schwartz's theme back then of making Superman special and not just another Kryptonian empowered by our environment.

An interesting idea in that book was Superman had determined that Earth's ecology could only support the addition of a super-city like Kandor in one location (even if he could have enlarged it back then): Midway City aka Hawkman's stomping ground.  The fact that he enlarged it on another planet altogether in "Let My People Grow" later jibes with this earlier WF story.


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: JulianPerez on September 06, 2005, 02:39:18 PM
What little I've seen of Klurkor suggests that it was a sort of aikido or Judo style martial art intended to use an opponent's strength against them.

Faora was a follower of Zod, along with Quex-Ul, which implies that she has had some variety of military training. This implies that the ultra-pragmatism of Horu-Kanu and its use of fatal nerve strikes, may be related to some of the ultra-pragmatic martial arts used in the modern military, like Krav Maga, with their emphasis on KILLING an opponent before he can be a threat, things like kidney punches, neck-breaks, and so on. It would probably be useless to someone like Superman or Supergirl that has a code against killing, and who have defined enough of a sense of fair play as to not fight dirty.

Here's something that I just thought of: are the Phantom Zone criminals still alive come the 30th Century? Obviously in the Phantom Zone they do not age, and Mon-El was still around to be released.


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: Captain Kal on September 06, 2005, 03:01:13 PM
According to Adventure Comics #323, only one Kryptonian criminal survived in the Phantom Zone to the 30th century.  I forget his name but he was an older man and not a great fighter.  He was dying of old age on Krypton so he decided to destroy the planet with a quake producing machine so it wouldn't outlive him.  Jor-El defeated him and Gaz-Or (I think was his name) was sentenced to eternity in the PZ.

The other criminals either had served their sentences by the 30th century or they had escaped from there before that time (for the other lifers like Jer-Em).

Hey, I wonder if Jer-Em is related to Dev-Em.  They have the same family name.  Dev was a juvenile delinquent.  Jer was a fanatical religious zealot.  It seems just as the Els were the epitome of Kryptonian civilization, the Ems spawned the dregs.


Title: Re: Klukor - the Kryptonian Martial Art
Post by: JulianPerez on September 06, 2005, 03:25:07 PM
Quote from: "Captain Kal"
According to Adventure Comics #323, only one Kryptonian criminal survived in the Phantom Zone to the 30th century.  I forget his name but he was an older man and not a great fighter.  He was dying of old age on Krypton so he decided to destroy the planet with a quake producing machine so it wouldn't outlive him.  Jor-El defeated him and Gaz-Or (I think was his name) was sentenced to eternity in the PZ.


Ah, thank you, Captain Kal! Man, poor Gaz-Or, they really threw the book at him.


Title: Only one left in Phantom Zone
Post by: ProfPotter on September 06, 2005, 05:56:17 PM
Actually, there is conflicting information about that.  Back in ADVENTURE COMICS #305, Mon-El is finally released for good, but wants to be projected back into the zone so he can talk to the criminals there one last time.  I don't recall who exactly was shown, but I think it was the usual guys (Jax-Ur, Professor Vakox, General Zod, etc.)

I suppose it's possible they got released/escaped in between those two issues, but unlikely.