Print Page - Saddest Superman

According to Fred Hembeck in his "Hembeck Show":

Quote

The single saddest story I've ever read in a comic book?

That'd have to be the tragic saga of Chester King, aka Hyper-Man, sole surviving inhabitant of the planet Zoron, and mighty champion of his adopted world, Oceania.

Huh?

I suppose not very many of you out there in the "Fred Hembeck Show" audience have actually even HEARD of this maroon-suited super hero, as his one and only appearance came within the pages of 1960's Action Comics #265 (reprinted eight years later in the giant 30th anniversary edition of Superman, #265). The 13 page story was entitled "The Superman From Outer Space", and the Grand Comic Book Database credits Otto Binder as its author, with the artwork provided by Curt Swan and Stan Kaye (though to my eyes, it appears that John Forte was actually the tale's inker, but that's really neither here nor there...). And yeah, it was edited under the auspices of Mort Weisinger, often the target of gleeful mockery from these quarters...

But not today.

http://comics.ign.com/articles/644/644443p1.html

Other nominations?

It's hard for me to disassociate the sadness of the "Whatever Happened..."' story itself from the sadness in knowing it's the last we'd see of Curt Swan and Julius Schwartz Superman.

Quote from: "Klar Ken T5477"

I think I was gonna die from total despair when first reading "the Last Days of Superman" when I was wee one. I just start reading and now Superman's dying!!! And even his friends from the future know it and help out in his greatest deeds to save Earth???

There were two big "Virus X" plotlines in Superman (plus a lesser one where Supergirl also gets it). There's the much-anthologized "The Last Days Of Superman", where it doesn't turn out to be Virus X after all, and "The Leper Of Krypton", where it is indeed Virus X. The latter is arguably a sadder tale. Superman is put in a coffin and gets thrown into the heart of a sun to be cremated. Poof! Ahh... someone did a writeup on it:

http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/niven/142/profiles/pro05.html

As an aside, when I read the Alan Moore Superman-Swamp Thing story when it came out, I went into a Snit Supreme thinking "Why doesn't Superman solve this virus the same way he did with Virus X? Alan Moore must not really grok Superman". <laughs>

This story isn't well-known, but except for the ending it's one of the saddest Superman stories that I can remember.

(http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/97/400/97_4_0000385.jpg)

In this three-parter, Superman has to help with an emergency in the future, but he's warned that breaking the time barrier under his own power in the next twenty-four hours will cause some sort of disaster. So he is forced to use a surplus LSH time bubble. (No explanation's given for why he can't just wait the twenty-four hours and then go -- the future, by definition, can always wait -- but oh well.) Unfortunately, the time bubble is defective, and causes Superman to show up in the future as an old man. Then things go from bad to worse as the Time Trapper puts a curse on Supey to prevent him from going back to his own time, and some well-meaning future scientists give him a treatment that makes him immune to all of his usual vulnerabilities.

So, the result is, you have a Superman who's physically old and feebled, who can't get back to his own time and isn't really needed anymore in the far-future era in which he's stuck, but is uncapable of ending it all. Though given the way the story ended, the last is certainly a good thing.

The saddest story I can think of involving Superman may not *technically* be a Superman story, but called up very simple, basic emotions just the same. It was a 9-page back up story by Cary Bates and Curt Swan inside

SUPERBOY AND THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #195 (1973)

In this one, the Legion of Super-Heroes have their usual tryouts; after instant messages and pop music stopped existing in the 30th Century, apparently Legion tryouts were invented to crush the self-esteem of teenagers. To this one, a strange youth attended, known as ERG-1 (Energy Release Generator).

ERG-1 showed that as he was made of pure energy, he had powers that were casually omnipotent: he could pass through objects like Shrinking Violet, he could shrink or grow like Colossal Boy or Shrinking Violet, he could change one element into another like Chemical King, and had super-senses like Superboy and Supergirl, and so on. The Legion however, being the popular, dickish, coiffured handsome young caucasians that they somehow transform into temporarily in these ego-squashing try-out stories, told ERG that he had no original super-power and thus he could not join the Legion. But ERG said that he did have one original superpower - but he couldn't show it to them.

Not dissuaded in the least, ERG-1 sneaks aboard a space cruiser while the other Legionnaires because he wants to prove himself to the others. All does not go well, however. The other Legionnaires are soundly captured by a deadly robot and in eminent peril of death. Then, the young Drake Burroughs. He cries out "Get back! I can save them!" The thought bubble, however shows: No choice... I have to use... THE POWER!!!!" There was a titanic explosion from the visor of ERG-1's suit that melts the giant robot.

The Legionnaires were awed by the one that saved them - only to find a cracked visor and an empty containment suit hissing smoke.

You see, the reason ERG-1 could not demonstrate his power is because he could only use it once...because it would kill him.

...by the way, did I mention Cary Bates was a genius?

Quote from: "JulianPerez"

While an intersting read the story fell apart because by that time the 'no original power' idea was known to be bunk - it had been revealed that Superboy and Supergirl had been simutanious Legion members but thanks to Saturn girl had forgotten they knew each other. Then there was the fact that Ultraboy was a member along with Superboy even though his power set was identical to Superboy's except that he could only use on power at a time.

In fact there were times when the LSH could be real jerks. Like the time when performing a trial Supergirl encounters some red K which turns her into an adult. Forgetting that mentally she was still her real age and the effects are temporary the LSH denigh her membership.

The Legion constitution was later revealed to have the caveat that Superboy's and Supergirl's powers were the exceptions to the no duplicated power rule. (It wouldn't do to rule out a guy with one or two powers of theirs since they had so many in one person.) Anyway, even without that caveat, it may be argued that the difference in gender made their powersets different just as real men have greater strength but lesser stamina and the reverse applies to women, etc. Push comes to shove, Kara could have children and Kal couldn't. ;)

Ultra Boy had the unique power of Penetra Vision that could see through lead and his Flash Vision was said to be greater than Heat Vision. He also had a different set of vulnerabilities making his invulnerability distinct from Kryptonian invulnerability.

Mon-El was invulnerable to kryptonite and his anti-lead serum let him keep his powers in red sun/high-G environments.

The red K incident was a technicality. The Legion used a physiological equivalency age scale given the various worlds and races in the U.P. The red K had made her physically too old for application at that time.

But the deal with Bouncing Boy being originally rejected was an example of them being jerks, IMHO.

BTW, I prefer ERG-1 had remained dead as that makes his first story that much more meaningful. Bringing him back like that to make Wildfire cheapens that first story. Ironically, I just reread that tale last night. While Bates had his high points, he was notorious for his poor research. In that particular tale, he had Chemical King creating elements from the air -- such as blasts of radioactive Cobalt-60 -- which wasn't his actual power (controlling chemical reactions).

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

The Legion went by biological and physical age instead of chronological - for instance, they accepted Mon-El into Legion Membership despite the fact he was over 1018 years old as a result of being trapped in the Phantom Zone, because as no one ages in the Phantom Zone, he was still 18 years old.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

BTW, I prefer ERG-1 had remained dead as that makes his first story that much more meaningful. Bringing him back like that to make Wildfire cheapens that first story. Ironically, I just reread that tale last night. While Bates had his high points, he was notorious for his poor research. In that particular tale, he had Chemical King creating elements from the air -- such as blasts of radioactive Cobalt-60 -- which wasn't his actual power (controlling chemical reactions).

Wildfire also had something of a duller personality as well - none of the decency and desire to be liked and accepted that defined ERG-1's first story.

As for Cary Bates' mixing up Chemical King's power...well, can't say I don't understand that. I mean, that was one rather confusing and complicated power: accelerating chemical reactions. A few friends of mine that are chemistry majors explain to me that this is a truly terrifying power in its implications. Then again, they're the type that laugh at the math jokes in FUTURAMA. :D It lacks the untangled straightforwardness of Cosmic Boy's Super-Magnetism or Chameleon Boy's Super-Disguise.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

FYI, Chemical King was based on a character that a fan suggested in a lettercol for a Legionnaire who could control time. The creative staff wisely decided that would be too formidable a hero so they weakened to concept to just controlling chemical reactions.

Speaking of which and not to get off topic, I heard a piece of vague gossip that perhaps someone with access to the actual issue lettercols (instead of Archive Editions like mine) can confirm or deny.

According to the rumor, Shadow Lass was a concept originally contributed by a reader in the lettercol. The original reader's concept was one that was paranoid and insanely racist: Shadow Lass's original origin according to the suggestion was that she was originally from a planet that black Africans settled after they were forced off earth by a gigantic Race War.

This TURNER DIARIES-style concept is one that, thankfully, the Legion writers discarded even as unspoken backstory, obviously, as the second Invisible Kid was stated to be from the Ivory Coast, and perhaps more embarassingly, Tyroc's island of all-Africans that don't want integration or something.

This rather sinister theory might account for why the Legion future is so ruthlessly caucasian. Then again, I always thought there were probably some non-whites (and a large mixed race population, which may likely be the dominant group on earth) puttering all around in crowd scenes, but they were never really shown that way because of "errors in reporting." :D

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

But so can every female on the legion which would make that fall under the 'dupliated power' rule. :lol: Then there was Lightning Lad and Lighning Lass (she got in by fooling them into believing she was her then dead brother. They then brought him back and she stayed on as a member)

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

The red K incident was a technicality. The Legion used a physiological equivalency age scale given the various worlds and races in the U.P. The red K had made her physically too old for application at that time.

But the deal with Bouncing Boy being originally rejected was an example of them being jerks, IMHO.

The Red K incident really rubbed me the wrong way because it was temporary. Why didn't the LSH have simply waited the 48 hours it took it for the stuff the wear off. Created just before Civil Right Movement took off the there were plenty of time LSH behaved like total jerks.

I mean one year they make Jimmy Olsen a member for crying out loud back when he was Elastic Lad. Never mind that they had to know (either via historical records or their Time Viewers) that is might wear off (which it did as before). Never mind it 'filled' the one member per year requirement (when did they finally drop that idiocy?) and prevented someone else from being a member. Oh on Bouncing Boy it took him three tries before the LSH finally made him a member.

The biggest example of the LSH behaving not only like jerks but idiots as well was Adventure Comics #267 where the Legion imprison Superboy because thanks to their time viewer they see him performing superfeats for the government out of context and think he has gone outlaw. Double checking what they have seen especially as by what history they have says Superboy will become Superman never occurs to them. In fact in these comic using any kind of common sense as well as using anything rembaling a brain does't seem to occur to the LSH.

The Legion Constitution
(From THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES [second series] #308-310)

http://www.fanzing.com/mag/fanzing35/hoj.shtml

See this particular section:

3.1 To qualify for active membership, a candidate must:
(i) be at the time of proposed admission under the age of eighteen (18), as measured on the Terran comparative physiological age scale (as periodically revised by the United Planets);
(ii) have at least one genuine super-power not activated, assisted, or powered by extrinsic means and not possessed by the contemporary Terran population; and further, such super-power must be distinct from the super-power(s) possessed by any active member other than Superboy;
(iii) be able to fully control such power; and
(iv) be courageous and good of character.

As I said, the Constitution had the caveat about Superboy and Supergirl. It was also later suggested that Superboy had both honorary and active status which allowed another with his powers to be in the Legion. It must be noted that both Superboy and Supergirl really weren't fully active Legionnaires as they still had their -- historical -- lives to live in the 20th century. Active LSH'rs were supposed to be on duty, oncall, 24/7 which was impossible for the super-cousins. The Legion had to make special caveats for them to join. They even later amended the Constitution about part-timers like Superboy, Supergirl, and Karate Kid (on a mission in the 20th century at the time) so they couldn't qualify as Legion leaders.

I recall they offered membership to Dev-Em -- who declined -- and he had Superboy's exact powers. That underscores the caveats in the Legion Constitution re: Kryptonian powers and the part-time status of the super-cousins.

And I was talking about super-pregnancies not normal ones. heh heh

Lightning Lass actually was on her way out when her brother was revived. It was only Dream Girl's changing her powers that let her stay with a new unique power. Before Garth's return, she did indeed qualify for unique powers. When she regained her electrical powers, she remained because it was understood Garth and the other charter members were soon going into Advisory inactive status.

I suppose the red K incident could be explained this way. The tryouts had specific dates for them. The Legion did hold them only once a year as established. Delaying them would be like delaying the Olympics after they've already started -- and the tryouts had indeed already started. It would be a form of favouritism if they bent things a few days just so Kara could join. To be completely fair to the other applicants in that period, they'd have to keep to the established schedule and precedent.

Elastic Lad was admitted as an Honorary member not fully Active, so they fully knew of his temporary, serum-dependent powers. Jimmy was admitted more for his sterling character and resourcefulness, and for being such a good friend to Superman helping him. No bending of the rules was involved here. Honorary members are also Legion Reservists.

Completely agree re: Bouncing Boy. That still grates on me. And I'm not fat myself. I just have a real problem with discrimination of any kind. Interestingly, when Marvel's Quicksilver was ricocheting around to nail baddies, fans thought it was 'cool'. But let the original fat Chuck do the same thing and he's a clown to them. *urgh*

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

I suppose the red K incident could be explained this way. The tryouts had specific dates for them. The Legion did hold them only once a year as established. Delaying them would be like delaying the Olympics after they've already started -- and the tryouts had indeed already started. It would be a form of favouritism if they bent things a few days just so Kara could join. To be completely fair to the other applicants in that period, they'd have to keep to the established schedule and precedent.

Except that the Olymics have been delayed due to 'acts of nature' - high winds have delayed their opening, bad weather has on occation delayed events like the ski jump. Furthermore Supergirl became a member along with Brainiac 5 showing the one 'active' membership per year rule to be a crock. Also the 18 year old rule only applied to active membership as per this part of the Legion Constitution:

2.4 Honorary members shall be those worthy individuals who do not qualify for active membership hereunder, but whom the active membership wishes to honor with inclusion in the Legion of Super-Heroes.

So Supergirl could have still been made an Honorary memeber as thanks to the Red K she no longer qualified for active membership but instead the Legion denighed her even this.

Futhermore thanks to retcons the LSH became bigger jerks as it was revealed that Brainiac 5 was a member when the Legion approched Superboy. This creates all sorts of problems as the Legion constitution only excluded power similar to Superboy's not Supergirl's. By the Legion's own constituion they could not have Superboy as a member until Supergirl left as she was a member before him. No matter how you sliced it the Legion were jerks.

When it comes to acts of Nature or God in the Olympics, those affect everybody equally. No one would hold up an event just because the Romanian team had a cold or missed their flight. That would be pandering to a particular person or team. The only person who would benefit from a delay in proceedings would be Supergirl as it has no beneficial effect on the others; indeed, it would have a very negative effect on the other applicants as the rules were bent to cater to a particular applicant without giving any advantages to them. It would be like letting a gymnast redo the beam event after a nasty fall -- it's just not done 'cause it's blatantly unfair to all the other competitors. The fall was a tough break but it counts. The same counts for red K at Kara's first application.

At the time, the one member per year rule and annual open tryouts was the policy. The Legion had experimented with a number of different options over the years including an adult advisor, Marla Latham, when it came to testing out Ultra Boy. Some candidates had to go through the Legion Academy after Ultra Boy's time (such as Timber Wolf and Chemical King), while others didn't depending on the policies of that time. During the time of Karate Kid, they had allowed four members to join at once (KK, Princess Projectra, Ferro Lad, and Nemesis Kid). Polar Boy, Quislet, Magnetic Kid, and Sensor Girl had joined at the same time. The rules at the time for Superboy was a single member per year. They had evolved by the time of Brainiac 5.

Actually, the Honorary membership section was a later amendment not part of the original Constitution. Please note that the version we're looking at is the latest and final version that was ever shown in the books. It includes all the changes over the years. For instance, the original one had a non-married clause that was removed many years later when Saturn Girl and Lightning Lad proved during the Earthwar that marriage didn't compromise their commitment to the LSH; that clause is not in the final Constitution in that link.

Moreover, Bouncing Boy/Chuck Taine was the first member to be granted true Reserve/Honorary membership status when he lost his powers. He was such an asset to the Legion and a great guy that they seemed to have invented the status just so Chuck could still be around. Honorary status did not truly exist in Supergirl's application time. (Adventure Comics No. 321 (Jun 1964) "The Code of the Legion")

Again, this was the latest version of the Constitution re: Supergirl and duplication of powers. That version was Post Crisis when Supergirl had been retconned out of existence so there never was a Supergirl in the Post Crisis Legion. I've seen an earlier Pre Crisis version that includes Supergirl with Superboy in the no duplicated powers clause (you can find it in the Mayfair DCH RPG LSH Sourcebook #2).

In retrospect, maybe they did treat Chuck badly when he applied. But they more than made up for it by inventing the Honorary status just for him.

EDIT: Also, they granted Reserve/Honorary status -- which includes many membership privileges including living allowances and health care -- to the Legion of Substitute Heroes when they learned that these Legion rejects had created their own organization. Surely that showed respect for the Subs to be so inclusive of them. And the LSH usually gave a token of their esteem to worthy rejected candidates like a flight ring (man, that's big of them). Overall, the Legion was a pretty decent organization not a bunch of jerks as some would try to paint them as.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

Moreover, Bouncing Boy/Chuck Taine was the first member to be granted true Reserve/Honorary membership status when he lost his powers. He was such an asset to the Legion and a great guy that they seemed to have invented the status just so Chuck could still be around. Honorary status did not truly exist in Supergirl's application time. (Adventure Comics No. 321 (Jun 1964) "The Code of the Legion")

Don't forget Kid Psycho, who despite the fact he was refused membership for the logical reason that every time he used his superpower it would cost him a year of life, was given status as "Secret Weapon No. 1." I mean, that was a pretty classy thing to do.

I can't help but feel I started this discussion when I described the Legionnaires as "coiffured causasians out to destroy self-esteem." I was being facetious when I said this - usually the Legionnaires have been characterized and stand-up kids and their club one that any kid in the world would want to join.

Although I never bought the rationale for the "only one power allowed" rule. What's the harm in having a backup shapeshifter or lightning-bolt thrower, right? (Of course, I know this rule was instituted for the very practical reason of the writers not wanting to compromise the uniqueness of any Legionnaire, but still, it was rather iffy to rationale in the context of the fictional world.)

I've always felt the Legion could cut the crime rate in the 30th Century by half if they just let all non-evil people that want in the Legion in. Calorie Queen shouldn't have been turned away; anyway, isn't it a fairly unique power to be able to eat all you want and still being able to squeeze into those skintight disco flare pants that supergroovy cat Dave Cockrum designed?

Fascinating post as always, Julian, and good point re: Kid Psycho. It must be noted that KP had a very valuable power that surely would have qualified for full active membership if not for that life-shortening aspect. It was in the Legion's own interests to keep such a formidable power available for crisis situations -- pun intended! They actually put the Kid to use the one and only time during the Crisis.

The unique super-power rule was revised in one of the Post Crisis reboots to be only one member representing each planet in the U.P. It became a political rule to ensure equal representation across the U.P. member worlds with no single world having an unfair representation in the LSH.

The current Waid Legion has done almost what you suggested. Anyone who subscribes to the Legion Heroic philosophy is already a Legionnaire since it's a social movement not a team. At last count, they had at least 100,000 members. But the core group of about 20 members or less are limited to the number of flight rings that Brainiac 5 can churn out, which are exceedingly expensive and made from vanishingly small resources. Despite their vast numbers, they've been no better at vanquishing evil than the other incarnations of the LSH. OTOH, this version seems to be the only one with little regular support from the authorities while the other incarnations of the Legion usually had a great working relationship with the Science Police and planetary governments.

Oh, and Calorie Queen was pre-Cockrum, and I don't think she wore a G-string like his creations tended to. Anyway, CQ was part of a Legion of Super-Rejects storyline which investigated the possibility of new applicants being superior in powers to existing Legionnaires. In the end, though individually outmatched by their superior counterparts, the real Legionnaires triumphed by superior character and teamwork: That trumps powers any day.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

At the time, the one member per year rule and annual open tryouts was the policy. The Legion had experimented with a number of different options over the years including an adult advisor, Marla Latham, when it came to testing out Ultra Boy. Some candidates had to go through the Legion Academy after Ultra Boy's time (such as Timber Wolf and Chemical King), while others didn't depending on the policies of that time. During the time of Karate Kid, they had allowed four members to join at once (KK, Princess Projectra, Ferro Lad, and Nemesis Kid). Polar Boy, Quislet, Magnetic Kid, and Sensor Girl had joined at the same time. The rules at the time for Superboy was a single member per year. They had evolved by the time of Brainiac 5.

Except as I pointed out thanks to retcons Brainiac 5 and Supergirl were made member in the SAME year BEFORE SUperboy invalidating the single member per year requirement.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

Again, this was the latest version of the Constitution re: Supergirl and duplication of powers. That version was Post Crisis when Supergirl had been retconned out of existence so there never was a Supergirl in the Post Crisis Legion..

Actually as pointed out by the End of an Era saga the Post-Crisis Pre-Zero-Hour LHS's history was a convoluted mess that made Hawkman's look sane. The main problem was that LSH like Hawkman did not reboot after Crisis and in fact kept going on as if Crisis had not even happened with everyone wondering is Sensor Girl was really Kara. By End of an Era things were a total mess with some LSH members knowing who Satan Girl was even though per post-Crisis she should have not existed either being a Red K created duplicate of Kara.

Very good point, Maximara, re: the single member rule and Superboy's induction. My bad for missing it earlier.

If you read Superboy's induction tale, you'll note that he wasn't competing with any other applicants. He was competing with the charter members to perform super-tasks. He was just proving his own worth both in powers and character (the latter being the real key trait here) for membership. It looks like he wasn't part of a regular annual open call but a special mission to induct the Greatest Super-Hero of All Time into the Legion's ranks. I mean, no other candidate, including Supergirl, ever had to compete with the charter members or any other Legionnaires to prove their worth. Karate Kid forced the issue -- challenging Superboy to a fight -- to earn his place in the Legion, but that was his idea not the Legion's.

Note in the below scanned page that Superboy was invited as an honorary member. That falls outside the bounds of the active membership rules. As stated earlier, his membership is both honorary and active since they bent the rules to let the greatest super-hero have any time at all with the team.

(http://superman.nu/tales2/lsh/3.gif)

It must be noted that Crisis isn't to blame for the LSH continuity mess. It all traces back to Unca Johnny Byrne getting rid of Superboy -- and by extension, Supergirl too --without thinking through the consequences to the vastly popular Legion book.[/img]

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

Oh, and Calorie Queen was pre-Cockrum, and I don't think she wore a G-string like his creations tended to. Anyway, CQ was part of a Legion of Super-Rejects storyline which investigated the possibility of new applicants being superior in powers to existing Legionnaires. In the end, though individually outmatched by their superior counterparts, the real Legionnaires triumphed by superior character and teamwork: That trumps powers any day.

Yeah, I remember.

Wasn't Cockrum, you say? I'll take your word for it. Then again, it may be a sort of Pavlov thing. Here's the Julian non-rationale for why I might have thought so:

Step 1: Dave Cockrum = great costume design

Step 2: Calorie Queen = great costume design.

Step 3: Dave Cockrum did Legion of Super-Heroes at one point

So, "logically," Dave Cockrum must have designed Calorie Queen!

The choices for Legion of Super-Heroes were fairly brilliant, but my all time favorite in the history of ever has to be one character in Alan Moore's Legion-equivalent group, the League of Infinity, Wilhelm Reich. WILHELM-FREAKIN-REICH as a superhero named "Orgone Lad." What, Alan Moore couldn't get Alex Trebek?

For those of you not hip with blatant quackery, "Orgone" is somewhere between phrenology and the earth being banana-shaped. Supposedly, it's the belief that there is a cosmic force that is unleashed during orgasm that supposedly is the life force. Wilhelm Reich was the "discoverer," and he used this force to create machines that disperse clouds somehow. Orgone also is responsible for spontaneous generation, meaning that if you mix up distilled water and put it in an airproof container and expose it to an orgone machine, it creates "bilks," or pre-life.

In other words, it's a smorgasbord of insane. Kudos to Alan Moore for tredging this obscure weirdo from nowhere!

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

It must be noted that Crisis isn't to blame for the LSH continuity mess. It all traces back to Unca Johnny Byrne getting rid of Superboy -- and by extension, Supergirl too --without thinking through the consequences to the vastly popular Legion book.[/img]

Actully it was not Bryne's fault but rather DC's for not having a really plan (despite coming out with a History of the DC universe right after Crisis) of what the post-Crisis DCU would be like.

For example in Time Masters it is states that a method of time travel will work only twice for a certain person which ingored the fact that Barry Allen and foes like Abrakadabra and Professor Zoom has all used the same method of time travel dozens of times each. Furthermore Byrne likely thought the LSH riters would use the out they gave themselves in LSH #18 (Dec 1985) but instead the LSH writers just went along as if Crisis never happened.

Then DC had Legends which had Cosmic Boy land in the 20th century and find out that not only there wasn't a Superbody but every major thing the LSH kne about the 20th century as wrong. He talks about how the people adored their heroes and finds the anti-hero protests going on, he then talks about the safe use of nuclear power and finds out about Three Mile island, and finally when he talks about the safe space program he finds out about the Challenger disaster. If this was not bad enough you have the fact scientists of the LSH's time had used Time Bubbles to verify these events. Cosmic Boy gets home and we go into Legion of Superheroes #37 which introduces the Pocket Universe.

Byrne picks up Levitz's idea in Superman #8 and adds a throw away line
about how 'this' Superman met the Superboy of Earth Prime (pg 10 panel 1). Unfortunitly Bryne kept with the Post Crisis idea of all close parallel universes being wiped out and had the Pocket Universe an artifically created alternate timeline but Levitz had the Pocket Universe a reality the Time Trapper somehow saved from Crisis which given the events In Crisis #11-#12 made no sense what-so-ever.

Things go from bad to worse as the LSH writers continue on their merry way. Instead of using the Pocket Universe to fix all the continuty glitches the LSH writerd have Superboy sacrifice himself eliminating the possiblity to deal with the Sensor Girl/Supergirl plot thread which they promply drop. Of course this still left Mon-El whose existance now made no sense. So after a jump of five years the LSH writhers retcon Superboy's history to where he was a member only a short time further messing up what little continuity they had.

Then some writer got the bright idea of Mon-El finallly realizing that he should not exist and going after the Time Trapper. How he knew the Trapper was alive after the Infinate Man suppossedly destroyed the guy in LSH vol 3 #50 was not really explained. He KOes the Trapper and for some reason this destroys ALL the Trapper had done and history goes into lala land for one issue until Glorith uses a life sacrifice to make one and only one action of the Trapper happen the switch of Phase and the Durlan who was to become R. J. Brande which ignored the fact that that Durlan was Chameleon Boy's father and yet Chameleon Boy exists in this alternate history. Then there is the little issue of the Pocket Universe which required a Time Trapper whihc somebody remember a little later on and had Glorith absorb the guy becoming the new Time Trapper. Unfortunilty by that time Mon-El had been replaced by Valor who now instead of Superboy inspired the legion. Then somebody had Glorith accidently kill Valor screwing up LSH history yet again.

So LSH vol 4 #53 comes out and has the original Time Trapper take out Glorith thanks to the mess she made of history. Of course by that time LSH history made about as much sense as Hawkman's. THen came End of an Era which addressed even pre-Crisis continuty snafus. For example one picture on pg 11 in Legionnaires #17 deals with Adventure Comics #267 (Doc 1959) where Saturn Girl shoots lightning bolts from her eyes. Another Pre-Crisis contiuity glitch from this time was Action Comics #287 where the LSH exist in the 21st rather than 30th century. FInallyt eh LSH rebooted and everybody stopped getting headaches.

Yikes! Thanks for that disturbingly thorough recap of the Post Crisis continuity mess. Not all of what you said above relates directly to the LSH but it's nice to have it all in one great post. :D

I still say the Legion's specific continuity problems stemmed from Byrne's MOS reboot, having done away with Superboy and Supergirl. His silly Pocketverse had so many holes in it -- such as Mon-El as you pointed out! -- and it was exacerbated by Byrne's farewell Matrix Supergirl storyline (which I listed earlier on the worst Superman stories thread).

With that convoluted mess, IMHO, DC had no option but to reboot the LSH to retcon the Byrne-mess above as if it never happened. The Pocketverse was completely unworkable given the compound mess Unca Johnny left behind there.

Unfortunately, the writers have gone reboot happy with the Legion since that first precedent so they just hit the reset button whenever it's absolutely convenient for them. DC Editorial has done nothing to rein this in, so you're right about no real plan being in place.

Quote from: "TELLE"

As well, his book The Mass Psychology of Facsism still holds up. Reich was an early left-wing critic of the Nazis who fled Germany only to be eventually imprisoned in the U.S. for his beliefs and psuedo-scientific claims. His books were banned and burned by the U.S. government. He died in prison.

Wilhelm Reich was placed in prison (for two years) for contempt of court when the FDA, realizing his shiny objects with flashy buttons had no effect on anything, got an injunction to prevent it from being sold as a legitimate medical procedure.

One might assume that my unbelieveably sarcastic post above might lead others to think that I have nothing but contempt for "Wet Willy" Reich. This could not be further from the truth. Whatever else one might say Reich, he was not a cynical opportunist tricking gullible old people into buying snake oil. He was a true believer, through and through; why else would he go back to selling his hocus cures when the U.S. of A itself said to stop? That requires guts I wish I had, as does his book, MASS PSYCHOLOGY OF FASCISM, published, I might add, in Austria in 1933! Wow. I'm not saying that Reich wasn't great or heroic or a true believer. I am saying, though, that he was several noodles short of a shnitzel.

I just realized something incredibly sad. All of the members of the League of Infinity are individuals whose lives end early and incredibly tragically. Perhaps Alan Moore was attempting to make a point about the League's callousness (demonstrated most ruthlessly with their decision to murder their comrade, Wild Bill Hickok): that is, allowing these youths to adventure with them, all the while knowing their eventual grisly fate. Moore made this same point with the model the League was based on, the actual Legion, in "Whatever Happened?" Superman curses them for their callowness in befriending him all the while knowing all along the day he was going to die and keeping this from him.

Wild Bill, obviously was shot in the back and killed in his hometown.

Mata Hari was executed for espionage in World War I.

Wilhelm Reich died of heart failure in prison.

Siegfried is murdered by his own brother, Guttorm, in bed, and his wife Brunhilda kills his son.

Achilles was killed by an arrow through his one weak spot.

I have no idea if Witch Wench is based on a real person, but it's seriously not hard to imagine a broomstick-riding witch meeting a bad end in 16th-17th Century Europe.

This gives a rather ominous note to the Supreme series, implying that it will not have a happy ending.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

I still say the Legion's specific continuity problems stemmed from Byrne's MOS reboot, having done away with Superboy and Supergirl.

No because the Legion writer had a perfect out wit LSH vol 3 #18 and they did not use it - ever.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

his silly Pocketverse had so many holes in it -- such as Mon-El as you pointed out! -- and it was exacerbated by Byrne's farewell Matrix Supergirl storyline (which I listed earlier on the worst Superman stories thread).

Why does everybody say that Byrne invented this thing when in fact it appeared in LSH Vol 3 #37 thanks to Paul Levitz first? Byrne did not create the Pocket Unvierse rather Levitz was the clown the inflicteted this bonehead kludge on us.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

With that convoluted mess, IMHO, DC had no option but to reboot the LSH to retcon the Byrne-mess above as if it never happened. The Pocketverse was completely unworkable given the compound mess Unca Johnny left behind there.

I think Byrne was pissed off at Levitz and desided to destroy Levitz's little abomination once and for all.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

Unfortunately, the writers have gone reboot happy with the Legion since that first precedent so they just hit the reset button whenever it's absolutely convenient for them. DC Editorial has done nothing to rein this in, so you're right about no real plan being in place.

Hypertime has become what we all fear it would be - the great cop out against anything even remotely resembling continuity.

Quote from: "dto"

Maximara, this brings up a probelm I always had with Superman #8.

I don't mind Superman still recalling Superboy-Prime in Superman #8 (though whether this has since been erased by residual Crisis ripples or Zero Hour is anyone's guess now), but HOW could Superman know that Prime "disappeared into Limbo"? At the time, Superman was still unconscious and there were no surviving witnesses when Alexander Luthor opened his portal to the "Paradise Dimension"!

Darkseid and guests were watching the final battle, but he dismissed the heroes before Kal-L, Lois, Prime and Alex left the scene, and it's possible that Darkseid also missed seeing their departure. And even if Darkseid did observe this, how would Superman know as early as Issue #8?

I have always gone with the idea Superman was thinking figuratively. Crisis was kind of a mess post-Crisis because how it went down in the Post-Crisis DCU was never really fleshed out. Also the rules of the new DCU were never agreed on so for example you had LSH saying one thing about time travel, Flash said soming else and Time Masters contridicting everything both LSH and Flash had said on the issue up to that point. Byrne was not the cause but rather a symtom of the fact that DC had little if any real plan on how to continue after Crisis.

COncepts like Time Travel

With all due respect, Maximara, Byrne and Levitz co-created the Pocket Universe. While it appeared in the LSH book immediately before Byrne's Superman #8, it was a coordinated effort between the two books that both writers worked together on to establish a patch. They failed. That failure figures largely in how the Pocketverse couldn't handle the likes of Mon-El, Supergirl, or the classic LSH stories involving time travel, or the Computo storyline which linked back to Superman's/Batman's time and that continuity. Both books came out in Aug. 1987.

Byrne gets most of the blame since most of the Pocketverse was mentioned in his set of books for that storyline.

Byrne gets extra blame for further screwing up Pocketverse continuity with his lame Supergirl storyline and his blasphemous 'forcing' Superman to kill. He even has Superman think he's now tarnished -- which is a really nice farewell panel for Byrne. Not.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"

I'm not entirely aware of the history of this period, so I really can't comment on if they had the idea at the same time.

But I see much more of Byrne's influence in the Pocket Universe. It involved illogical explanations and shoddy, easily punctured scholarship, and this is Byrne's trademark: remember his ever-so-well-thought-out DOOM PATROL reboot? Pocket Universe also had heroism tarnished by deliberately antisocial actions and minimalization of concepts that better writers made grand (the Superboy world was just a POCKET UNIVERSE all along? Huh?)

Paul Levitz on the other hand, is someone whose history rewrites are lame and unsatisfying, but at least are airtight and hard to argue with. For instance, remember the retcon that Validus was the deformed son of Lightning Lad sent back in time as Darkseid's curse on the Legion? While it was such a terrible idea it made me want to chuck that annual against the wall as hard as possible, I really can't argue with it intellectually:

1) Validus's powers are "Mental Lightning," a combination of Saturn Girl and Lightning Lad's powers;

2) Validus DOES have the mind of a child;

3) People from Lightning Lad's planet are in fact, commonly twins;

4) Validus's background was never truly explained, which means there's nothing for this story to contradict.

Whereas Byrne's DOOM PATROL rewrite made no sense, did not work with the framework of established DC History and is actually contradicted by it at several points (the Doom Patrol appearance in Superman and in JLA: YEAR ONE), and leaves various unexplained loose ends he couldn't be bothered with tying up (Changeling from the Teen Titans, for one).

So, all things considered this is more like Byrne's handiwork than Levitz's. Levitz was a fanboy turned writer, in the same category as Mark Gruenwald. Not BAD, but...you really wish Cary Bates had a few more Legion stories left in him.

If it WAS more Byrne's idea, then, well, there's just more proof on the whole "Byrne is really the devil" theory.

If it WAS more Levitz's idea, my respect for him falls from a sufficient, detail-obsessed but average writer, to one who is responsible for destruction instead of creation, the greatest sin in any creative field.

Quote from: "JulianPerez"

But I see much more of Byrne's influence in the Pocket Universe. It involved illogical explanations and shoddy, easily punctured scholarship, and this is Byrne's trademark: remember his ever-so-well-thought-out DOOM PATROL reboot? Pocket Universe also had heroism tarnished by deliberately antisocial actions and minimalization of concepts that better writers made grand (the Superboy world was just a POCKET UNIVERSE all along? Huh?)

Paul Levitz on the other hand, is someone whose history rewrites are lame and unsatisfying, but at least are airtight and hard to argue with.

If it WAS more Levitz's idea, my respect for him falls from a sufficient, detail-obsessed but average writer, to one who is responsible for destruction instead of creation, the greatest sin in any creative field.

Well there is plenty to show that Levitz's version of the Pocket Universe has more holes than the Bryne version. Levitz's version required the TIme Trapper who had NEVER been at the Dawn of Time to know of the Pre-Crisis history and somehow save that Earth even when Crisis #11 clearly showed that ALL earths were RETROACTIVELY destroyed.

Byrne's Pocket Universe by contrast simply had the Time Trapper make an artifical artifical timeline that fit the Legion's memories and therefore did not require the Time Trapper to have knowledge he had no buisness having nor saving a reality that by Crisis #11 didn't exist anyhow.

Also Levitz was the one who destroyed everything by killing off Superboy totally screwing up Legion history as he forgot that Supergirl had joined first (with Brainiac in fact) Realizing that the whole effort had been wasted Byrne likely desided to destroy the Pocket Universe before any LSH writer did something else stupid with it. Of course LSH happily keep rewriting its history to the point I doubt either the writers or fans knew what the sam hill it was.

Furthermore IFAIK Byrne had no hand in the retcon that made Superboy a member for only a short time nor with Mon-El punching out the Time Trapper causing the one issue alternate history nor in the idiotic Durlan/R. J. Brande for Phase switch which left the Pocket Universe out in a learch. Nor did he do the Glorith consuming the Time Trapper or killing off Valor which messed things up again or the literally DOZENS of continuity screw ups the LSH writers and related books were doing. Lets fact it most of LSH book's problems can be placed at the feet of the LSH writers.

As for Superman killing that had happened before PRE-Crisis:

DC Comics Presents where Superman and Supergirl do their best to kill Mongul by overloadign his brain.

Jimmy Olsen and the Magic Totem where via trickery Superman makes a Kryptonian criminal kill himself.

1965 Filmation where Superman lets Parasite drain him nearly dry resulting in the Parasite blowing up real good.

The final season of the Superfriends where by accidently saving Krypton Earth is destroyed by the supervillians there. So to put things right Superman must kill billions.

Don't blame Byrne for going down a well worn path going all the way back into the 1960's at least.

Quote from: "Maximara"

As for Superman killing that had happened before PRE-Crisis:

DC Comics Presents where Superman and Supergirl do their best to kill Mongul by overloadign his brain.

Jimmy Olsen and the Magic Totem where via trickery Superman makes a Kryptonian criminal kill himself.

1965 Filmation where Superman lets Parasite drain him nearly dry resulting in the Parasite blowing up real good.

The final season of the Superfriends where by accidently saving Krypton Earth is destroyed by the supervillians there. So to put things right Superman must kill billions.

Don't blame Byrne for going down a well worn path going all the way back into the 1960's at least.

Yeah. The real problem with Byrne's Superman was he was to angsty and wishy-washy. Not that Superman wouldn't kill. He did. Once by accident.

Which ties back into the subject line of this topic:

A scientist was working on a nuclear powered robot that could be controlled by an exo-suit a human wore. During a bomb blast, the scientist's mind was transfered into the robot(since the robot didn't have any vocal capacity, the scientist couldn't explan what happened). He tried to see his wife, but since he was in the robot, Superman thought the robot had run amuck. Later, Supes figured out what had happeend and tried to stop the scientist without killing him. That scientist was trying to kill the people who set the bomb that almost killed his wife and dropped his mind into the robot. Superman crushed the wrists(no pain sensors) of the robot to prevent any more blasts. The scientist shot the cadmiun dampening rods at Supes and let himself get punched in the big red X on his chest. The robot started to glow.

Superman: I have been royally suckered!
Robot-X: Exactly.

Superman drug the robot that was soon going to achieve critical mass up into the straosphere where it exploded harmlessly. The only way to put that story would be as a loss for Superman. He couldn't save the scientist who really wasn't responsible for what had happened to him. The scientist's human body was mindless and stuck in a hospital ward.

I can not accept Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? as the conclusion of the pre-Crisis Superman. If Superman really would quit after taking a life like that, he should have quite after this incident with the scientist trapped in the robot's body.

Quote from: "ShinDangaioh"

That does sound like a sad story.

Superhero comics, however (and adventure fiction in general) are based on the notion that a bad guy falling into his own deathtrap doesn't count as a "murder." This was the backroad that for example, Doc Savage took, in order to have his villains die in an act of cosmic retribution, without the morally immaculate Doc Savage getting blood on his hands.

Quote from: "ShinDangaioh"

I can not accept Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? as the conclusion of the pre-Crisis Superman. If Superman really would quit after taking a life like that, he should have quite after this incident with the scientist trapped in the robot's body.

While what happened with Robot-X is a sad ending that does qualify as a loss for Superman, it does not anywhere near qualify as a "death that Superman is responsible for" because he did not make a moral choice to commit murder.

Superman can't rescue or save everybody; this was a lesson that he learned from the death of Ma and Pa Kent. Failure is heavy on his heart, but Superman made his peace with not being able to help everyone everywhere in trouble. If he was powerless to save a scientist, this is tragic, but is not even comparable with Superman's actions in Moore's story, where he made a premeditated choice to knowingly murder a sentient being.

Superman's choice in "Whatever Happened" was to kill. Perhaps the act was justified. But it does not change the fact Superman is directly responsible through his own action for a murder - which was why in that story he gave up being Superman forever.

Quote from: "forgottenhero"

What is this perfect out? I'm not all that up on my Legion lore.

Let's say that something like Mark Waid's current LOSH had been presented as a reboot for the Legion in 1986-87, same time as Superman's reboot. How would you all have taken it?

Speaking for myself (naturally) ...

I probably would appreciate ANY Legion reboot in favor of Keith Giffen's run; how could they have been worse?

I think it would go something like this:

JULIAN-1986: Here I aaaaam...rock you like a hurricaaaane... (bolts up) Who are you, stranger?

JULIAN-2005: Fear not, puny Julian of 1986. I am the mighty Julian of the year 2005. An alternate year 2005, one where instead of Mark Waid taking over LEGION, it was instead, Keith Giffen.

JULIAN-1986: I greet you, mighty man of the future. How, in your age, fares my favorite comic? I fear that little could be worse than Mark Waid's pen.

JULIAN-2005: Poorly I fear, lad. For...BEHOLD! (tosses several of the Giffen Legion issues) Not only will the Legion be placed in a dystopian future at odds with their present existence, but they will wear no costumes, and Saturn Girl will...power dress!

JULIAN-1986: (He tries to scream, but nothing comes out but blood) [/list]

In conclusion: if the reboot was attempted along Mark Waid's lines, I would be grateful for it only if I knew that we dodged the Giffen bullet.

Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Superman Comic Books! => Superman! => Topic started by: TELLE on August 26, 2005, 05:51:19 PM