Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Superman Through the Ages! => Supermanica => Topic started by: Super Monkey on September 20, 2005, 10:42:58 PM



Title: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Super Monkey on September 20, 2005, 10:42:58 PM
While I believe that JLA, All-Star All-Star Squadron, and The Legion of Superheroes, and one-shots shouldn't be considered canonical, this also means that some key figures to the pre-crisis mythology can not be included in the Supermanica. I am not referring to popular heroes and villains that appeared with Superman in these comics, but rather to characters who are directly related to Superman to the point of being inseparable.

Superman of Earth-A fits this bill, but if he were added, his entry should be only about him and not the other characters in the story, in order not to clutter the Supermanica.

Superman of Earth-A
Real Name: Ripper Jones

JLA No. 37 Aug 1965: "Earth--Without a Justice League!"
JLA No. 38 Sep 1965: "Crisis on Earth-A!"
http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/1449/400/1449_4_038.jpg

So what do you all think? Should an exception be made for him or do you believe it is not worth it?

Are there other Superman Family characters floating around that for some reason never appeared in the canonical comics?


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: DrJohnnyDiablo on September 22, 2005, 03:01:28 PM
I don't have a problem with it.

Fleisher himself made occasional exceptions to the canonicity rules, and as a website with the ability to hyperlink to other online sources of information, I think that we can afford to be even more flexible.


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: TELLE on September 24, 2005, 10:34:45 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
I am not referring to popular heroes and villains that appeared with Superman in these comics, but rather to characters who are directly related to Superman to the point of being inseparable.

Superman of Earth-A fits this bill, but if he were added, his entry should be only about him and not the other characters in the story, in order not to clutter the Supermanica.

Superman of Earth-A
Real Name: Ripper Jones

JLA No. 37 Aug 1965: "Earth--Without a Justice League!"
JLA No. 38 Sep 1965: "Crisis on Earth-A!"
http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/1449/400/1449_4_038.jpg

So what do you all think? Should an exception be made for him or do you believe it is not worth it?

Are there other Superman Family characters floating around that for some reason never appeared in the canonical comics?


I guess I would need more info --like what is the direct relation?  I haven't read the JLA issues in question.   Any other appearances, ever?  Is he "floating around" or just a one-off (2-off)?  What are the compelling reasons that the canon rules need to be broken in this case?


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Super Monkey on September 25, 2005, 12:05:14 AM
Quote
I guess I would need more info --like what is the direct relation?


The direct connection is that he is also from Krypton. Plus, Jor-el sent him to Earth by mistake, after Thunderbolt switch the babies. Also he took Superman's name and wears his costume. It doesn't get more direct than that :)

Quote
I haven't read the JLA issues in question. Any other appearances, ever? Is he "floating around" or just a one-off (2-off)?


He never appeared again, but Crisis means he never will. Many characters that are in the Supermanica only appeared once or twice, but they still count and should count.

Quote
What are the compelling reasons that the canon rules need to be broken in this case?


He is another Superman in DC comics during the Sliver Age. The idea behind this project to to document all things Superman pre-crisis. Therefore that means that any and all Superman spin offs during this time should be included. The same case could be made for Ultraman of Earth-3 if he didn't appear in that one issue of DC Comics presents. Both were part of the Superman mythos that people still talk about to this day. Supermanica just would not be complete without the complete pre-crisis story, and that would include this Superman of Earth-A.


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Super Monkey on September 25, 2005, 12:10:03 AM
Then there is Michael L. Fleisher, in the book this is all based on he also included stories from:

All-Star Comics
Batman
Detective Comics
Limited Collector's Edition
New York World's Fair Comics
World's Best Comics


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: TELLE on September 26, 2005, 02:46:30 AM
Just to play devil's advocate, the whole of the JLA and Legion titles have not been included in the canon, so it's arguable that the goal of the project is as stated but rather is more something like "documenting the entirety of the main Superman family mythos pre-Crisis".  I have a few non-canon entries burning a hole in my pocket as well, but a lot more in the pipe ahead of them, canonically speaking (and mixing metaphors).

Ultimately, it is the Great Rao's call about opening the floodgates to non-canon material.


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Super Monkey on September 26, 2005, 09:30:26 AM
Quote from: "TELLE"
Ultimately, it is the Great Rao's call about opening the floodgates to non-canon material.


I am not talking about opening up floodgates here, just adding those key characters who are directly related to Superman. It doesn't mean people can add Quix the bunny or make an entry for hostess twinkies. Nor does it mean they can add any hero that Superman crossover with like Spider-man. These things are not directly related to Superman, in other words they do not have their origin tied directly to Superman and they can exist without him.

Superman of Earth-A is different.

Quote
I have a few non-canon entries burning a hole in my pocket as well,


Who are they?


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: TELLE on September 26, 2005, 09:26:20 PM
The characters from "The 2nd Coming of Superman" from Superman
Spectacular #5, for starters.

Same argument --creatures who have an entire society based on the worship of Superman.


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Gangbuster on September 26, 2005, 10:44:07 PM
I never heard of Superman of Earth-A, but I'm also a noob. An exception may be worthwhile...Rao's call.

I'm actually not opposed to Legion or JLA being included after a while...but we have a lot to catch up on first. I don't think we should make more materials canonical until we've caught up on, say... DC Comics Presents. The encyclopedia has grown tremendously in the last year or so, but there is still much to do.

Actually, this would also be much easier if my Superman Quiz Book by Bruce Nash (1978) could be considered as a source of information.  :D


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: TELLE on September 27, 2005, 02:08:08 AM
Quote from: "Gangbuster Thorul"

Actually, this would also be much easier if my Superman Quiz Book by Bruce Nash (1978) could be considered as a source of information.  :D


I don't see why it couldn't be an uncredited source, as long as the info in the entry is backed up with citations from the actual comics.  Something I hope is eventually done for all of the entries.  Not just as an anal rule thing, but because it actually helps the legitimacy of the project.  As well, citations aid future readers who are curious about the actual stories.


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Great Rao on September 27, 2005, 11:07:50 PM
Quote
Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?

Personally, I don't feel that two appearances in JLA qualifies for inclusion in the Encyclopedia of Supermanic Biography.

But I'll open it up for discussion/debate for a few more days (just continue in this thread) then I'll put up a poll and we can all vote on it.

:s:


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Super Monkey on September 27, 2005, 11:35:01 PM
Quote
Personally, I don't feel that two appearances in JLA qualifies for inclusion in the Encyclopedia of Supermanic Biography.


Again, there are countless of entries on the site and in the book of people who only appeared once, so I don't see why that has to do anything with it.


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: TELLE on September 28, 2005, 05:10:14 AM
I guess the point is that the current canonical sources are Superman-centric, whereas JLA and even Legion often have nothing to do with the character or his family at all.


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Super Monkey on September 28, 2005, 10:51:47 AM
Quote from: "TELLE"
I guess the point is that the current canonical sources are Superman-centric, whereas JLA and even Legion often have nothing to do with the character or his family at all.


But what about the ones that do?
What to do with them?
That's the question.


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Gangbuster on September 28, 2005, 08:56:42 PM
Hmm...an up or down vote complicates things. Because my position is that I DO think that JLA and LSH should be canonical...just not YET. My position is that we still haven't completed the DC Comics Presents upgrade yet, and it will take a little more time.


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Super Monkey on September 28, 2005, 09:44:35 PM
I don't have all the DC Comics Presents issues, so it's really up to the fans here to add them. No one needs to wait for someone else to add an entry, since they can add them themselves. The more people add entries the faster it will grow and the better it will get.


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: TELLE on September 29, 2005, 02:40:28 AM
Just don't forget those citations!  :D


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Great Rao on October 03, 2005, 05:17:14 PM
I'd just like to remind people that voting is now open (http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1877).

:s:


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Super Monkey on October 03, 2005, 05:44:56 PM
Please vote people


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: TELLE on October 05, 2005, 12:33:17 AM
6 votes so far.  I guess that's the current roster of passionate Earth-A debaters!  :cry:


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: nightwing on October 05, 2005, 04:17:47 PM
Sorry to come in late.  Here's the issue as I see it: Superman of Earth-A would be a short, easily completed entry, he appeared in the Silver Age and there's always the possibility of people remembering him from the JLA tales and wanting to look him up.

On the other hand, JLA has to date not been a canon source for this project, and if memory serves this was a one-off tale that (a) had to wipe out established continuity in order to happen and (b) was itself wiped out at story's end, so that it never happened.  If this is the story I read in my "Crisis on Multiple Earths" TPB, none of the participants from the JSA or JLA retained any memory of what happened...for all intents and purposes, it didn't happen.  You could even make the argument that it was an "imaginary" story no different from a "What if Bruce Wayne was Superman" tale (how are we handling those?).

My gut reaction would be that this character has no bearing on "true" DC continuity and anyway only appeared in a non-canon source, so leave him out.  But I am open to arguments.  Again, if we have a precedent of accepting imaginary Supermen (be it an alternate Lex, Bruce, Jimmy or whomever) I might be more inclined to let this guy in.  But I'm reluctant to allow a JLA tale as that would set a precedent for including other JLA tales.

SuperMonkey, where did Fleischer include a Limited Collector Edition story?  I thought the period covered by the Great Superman Book ended with 1964...the Limited Collector Edition series didn't start til around 1972. And did he really include incidents from All-Star?


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Super Monkey on October 05, 2005, 04:30:31 PM
Quote
Again, if we have a precedent of accepting imaginary Supermen (be it an alternate Lex, Bruce, Jimmy or whomever) I might be more inclined to let this guy in.


There is: http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Category:Imaginary_Stories

Quote
SuperMonkey, where did Fleischer include a Limited Collector Edition story? I thought the period covered by the Great Superman Book ended with 1964...the Limited Collector Edition series didn't start til around 1972. And did he really include incidents from All-Star?


That list is taken from from the start of the book in the abbreviations page.


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: nightwing on October 07, 2005, 08:28:23 AM
I'm still thinking. :-)  And here's my thoughts:

As Superman of Earth-A only appears in one JLA story -- and even that one performs a self-retcon at the end so it never happened -- the real question at issue is not "shall we include Superman of Earth-A" but rather "Shall we revise the list of canon sources to include the Justice League of America?"  

In considering this question, and in view of Super-Monkey's report that All-Star Comics was among Fleischer's canon sources, I decided that inclusion of any Justice Society adventures in TGSB could be construed as a precedent for including JLA stories.

I checked and Fleischer does indeed list All-Star Comics in his abbreviations at the front of the Great Superman Book.  However, in the entire run of AS (at least in the time period covered by Fleischer), Superman made only two appearances, one of them a throwaway cameo in #7, and the other -- the only one that could really count as a Superman adventure -- was issue #36, wherein Superman encounters "The Wrecker," a man turned evil by the Stream of Madness, Koehaha.  I looked everywhere I could think of in Fleischer's book and there is no reference to the JSA, Koehaha or this version of "the Wrecker" (though there is an entry for another character by that name).

Thus, unless someone else knows where Fleischer actually references an All-Star issue in the body of the encyclopedia, I'm inclined to rule his inclusion of All-Star on the abbreviations page irrelevant to this matter. (Incidentally, he also includes "Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane" -- but not "Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen" -- and "Limited Collector Edition", though again I do not see them referenced in any entries in the book).

Also it should be remembered that JLA began its run in 1960, well within the period covered by Fleischer.  If he'd wanted to include JLA stories, he would have.

So...I'm inclined to vote "no" on the Superman of Earth-A since, in my view, he's not nearly important enough to justify a precedent that would open the door to every JLA story.  

On the other hand, it could well be argued that since Fleischer included All-Star, it means he considered those stories part of canon, even if he ultimately forgot to include the actual stories.  And in the same way that we have adopted to our "canon" list Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen issues -- which like AS, Fleischer included in his abbreviation while never (unless I missed something) referencing them -- we might also adopt All-Star Comics to our list as well.

Seeing as how the book resumed publication in 1976 and soon featured you-know-who rather prominently, this would give us an opening to flesh out the "Superman of Earth-2" entry. :)


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Super Monkey on October 07, 2005, 11:00:00 AM
It's a moot point now...
He appeared in 3 main stories and two covers on the later series.

Covers below, just click on the links to view them.

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2321/400/2321_4_62.jpg
http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2321/400/2321_4_74.jpg


This entry was not intended to open the floodgates to every Justice League story and character ever, just that one fellow.

This was to be a special case type of deal. For characters from non-canonical sources, can not just be added (though many people have tried! putting hyperlinks, all red for now, for people who never appeared in Superman's books) they must be voted upon.

For example future debates can be for such entries as:

Muhammad Ali and the aliens in that story
Photonucleic Effect
Mole-Men
The characters from "The 2nd Coming of Superman" from Superman
Spectacular #5


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Spaceman Spiff on October 07, 2005, 07:33:48 PM
Supes-2 also appeared on the covers of All-Star Comics #64 (http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2321/400/2321_4_64.jpg) and #65 (http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2321/400/2321_4_65.jpg).


Title: Re: Should Superman of Earth-A be allowed?
Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2005, 09:48:48 PM
Quote from: "Spaceman Spiff"
Supes-2 also appeared on the covers of All-Star Comics #64 (http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2321/400/2321_4_64.jpg) and #65 (http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2321/400/2321_4_65.jpg).


and a few infinity inc.'s as i recall.