|
Title: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on September 27, 2005, 05:53:04 AM I'm currently not at home and as such have no access to my books but I'm looking for some examples (scans would be helpful but I'd settle for anything) of Superman seeing through materials denser than lead. Post Crisis preferably but PreC is good too. Thanks much for any help.
Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 27, 2005, 07:28:27 AM He was occasionally shown as being able to see through himself, and his own physical density, Pre-Crisis, was far greater than lead. He's also been shown as being able to see through gold, which is nearly twice as dense as lead.
FWIW, x-rays _can_ penetrate through lead, but just with difficulty, as anyone who thinks they can put film in lead-lined bags and check them in as part of their luggage will attest. There's also been some inconsistency on whether or not he actually emits x-ray radiation, and how much he emits. I prefer to think of dense materials as a challenge for him to not melt them down, but not an outright barrier as they are comically shown. If Superman squints too hard at dense stuff, then he tends to generate heat vision and melt what he's trying to see through, so he goes easy with the dense stuff. He eventually can see through lead and otther dense things, but it'd takes some time and focus, not something he could do at superspeed over an entire city. Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: Captain Kal on September 27, 2005, 09:36:33 AM In the real world, lead is used for radiation shielding not because it's particularly good at it but because it combines low cost with relatively high density. Gold, uranium, osmium, and other dense elements would actually make far better radiation shields but their common use is prohibitively expensive. In some applications, the use of Uranium-238 with its relatively low alpha-particle radiation is worth the expense of its use as a shield.
As Uncle Mxy pointed out, Superman has seen through denser substances than lead. His X-ray vision is specifically unable to see through lead which makes us suspect the supposed Daxamite ancestry of Kryptonians is a factor here. Also, Bizarro reversed X-ray vision can see through nothing but lead, at least Pre Crisis, which suggests the lead limitation is less to do with the lead itself than the X-ray vision power itself. Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: nightwing on September 27, 2005, 10:12:52 AM I don't know that a lot of thought went into it, really. I think the term "X-Ray vision" was at first just a quick and easy way to describe Superman's ability to see through things, but as time went on writers started taking it too literally. X-rays are stopped by lead, so shouldn't his vision be...that sort of thing.
Similarly, I remember cases of Superman ruining the film in people's cameras by aiming his x-ray vision at them. This opens a huge, scary can of worms as it suggests Superman's exposing people to radiation every time he turns this power on. By now Luthor, Jimmy and a host of others should be serious candidates for cancer. I prefer to believe Superman's "x-ray vision" is nothing of the kind. Of course that still leaves us with the question of why lead stops it... Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on September 27, 2005, 12:18:43 PM With a nod to CK, here's some rehashed stuff combined with a theory of mine I posted elsewhere:
Quote My thoughts....Well, in theory Superman can emit x-rays from his eyes and has done so several times even PostC, remarking once to a pregnant mother to be that the x-rays his eyes emit are benign and wouldn't harm her fetus. As for not seeing through lead, it could be a genetically encoded psychosomatic problem. Think about it, if you have supervision, you're always (at least subconciously) going to know if what you're looking at is lead or not. It's common knowledge that X-rays can't pass through lead so if Superman thought "X-rays can't pass through lead so my x-ray vision shouldn't be able to see through lead" then he'd convince himself he couldn't see through lead. Now this is a real stretch, but what if this line of thinking were somehow encoded into his genetics as an instinct of some kind? It would explain not only why he can't see through lead, but also why he can't overcome this self sabotaging; because it's a part of his genetic makeup. It also explains why he can see through things that are denser than lead, neutronium for instance. To further add to this, it's been said that Kryptonians are the genetic offshoots of Daxamites who also can't see through lead. This inability to see through lead under any circumstances could come from the fact that lead is horrendously poisonous to Daxamites and so to not be caught unawares of its presence, they evolved the instinct that keeps them from seeing through it. They'll always notice it because it's always opaque to them. It's got some holes I know. Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 27, 2005, 02:28:13 PM Lead as an "extradimensional attractor" could make the Daxam vulnerability to lead and x-ray vision ineffectiveness vs. lead work. But I tend to think of the Superman "lead" obsession as scientific doubletalk that has grown stale. It's quite possible to limit Superman's x-ray vision in other ways (one that I just described, above) so Luthor can still hide the Kryptonite in the lead box.
Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: MatterEaterLad on September 27, 2005, 02:42:38 PM Or it just is...these are eyes that generate heat vision, selective see through abilities, and I suppose might squint a bit for telescopic vision...
Makes as much sense as a Green Lantern's ring having no effect on objects colored yellow (or Alan Scott versus wood, I suppose), despite some odd explanations...what about a particularly yellow orange color? Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 27, 2005, 05:21:58 PM Blue Guardians + Yellow Impurity = Green Lantern made a perverse sort of sense to me.
Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: MatterEaterLad on September 27, 2005, 06:27:31 PM :D
Well, I guess the ring works on yellowish-green but not greenish-yellow... The electromagnetic spectrum is weeping... 8) Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: dto on September 28, 2005, 03:55:55 AM I thought in the Legion of Super-Heroes stories Superboy couldn't see through Inertron, the strongest metallic substance in the 30th Century.
Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: Captain Kal on September 28, 2005, 11:26:00 AM I believe in the Weisinger era when inertron first appeared, it was totally impervious to any Legionnaire's powers, Kryptonian-type or otherwise. Superboy could not see through it.
Post Weisinger era, Inertron seemed to lose much of its invincibility. Superboy and Ultra Boy were shown cracking the Miracle Machine's inertron cube though they stated if it were an inch thicker they might not have been able to do so. Emerald Empress broke out of an inertron coccoon Element Lad formed around her. Mon-El blasted through LSH HQ's inertron-lined walls. I believe Superboy once looked at the Miracle Machine through its inertron cube to ascertain it was still safe in that era. Superboy broke through tough inertron chains albeit with extra effort. It was stated that Superboy could punch through Legion HQ's inertron-lined walls but he'd need to exert extra effort to do so. Manhunter 'Laurel Kent' casually flew through LSH HQ's walls. Note that in the DCH RPG which reflected the Post Weisinger era LSH, inertron was not a limitation on the visions of Supergirl, Superboy, Ultra Boy, or Mon-El. Ultra Boy seemed to be limited by energy fields which was probably based on The Great Darkness saga reference. The DC Who's Who similarly did not mention inertron as an X-ray vision limitation though it did for Ultra Boy (in the same sense that Star Boy's temporary comet-induced X-ray vision couldn't see through copper instead of lead or inertron). Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 28, 2005, 12:18:47 PM Inertron was the General Product hull of the Pre-Crisis and the scrith of the Post-Crisis, AFAICT (for those who have read some other Larry Niven works besides Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex).
The portrayal of x-ray vision has been inconsistent enough even without throwing lead into the picture. Does he emit x-rays or not, and would he emit x-rays as part of the "heat" that heat vision could generate even if he couldn't see through things? How does he know that Lois' underwear is "pink", when there's no visible light shined upon it? How does he handle depth perception in the context of x-raying -- how does he figure out how not to x-ray the eye chart in the room next door so he can serve in the Army? Another idea I had about how x-ray vision works from decades ago involved the Phantom Zone, where really he's "projecting" his sight into the Phantom Zone and thus it can pass through things. Of course, how the heck does the Phantom Zone work? Alan Moore's Supreme captured it best -- I see, I hear, I know. :) Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: Captain Kal on September 28, 2005, 02:07:09 PM Re: The Phantom Zone:
The Phantom Zone miniseries, Pre Crisis, showed us what we consider the PZ is really the outermost regions of a multi-region sentient alternate universe named Aethyr. This sentient universe basically is where mind -- esp. its own Mind! -- is the prime determining factor. Thus, you might have something there that being able to see through things via the PZ might be an option given the Zoners seemed to be able to see and hear anything anywhere in the tactile universe if they chose to do so (mental aspect). I believe it was Moore who penned the last Pre Crisis Phantom Zone story where Myzptlk took over the whole shebang so he could have fun torturing the Kryptonians there 'cause it's so much fun. Natch, the Byrning occurred right after so all of the above were retconned away. Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: Super Monkey on September 28, 2005, 02:36:56 PM That was from the final issue of DC Comics presents, I belive. I wouldn't use that issue as gospel.
The only good thing about that issue was the artwork. read a review here everyone: http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/pre-crisis-reviews/pre-crisis-mmrs-intro.php?topic=c-review-pc-dccp97 Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: Uncle Mxy on September 28, 2005, 02:45:08 PM Quote from: "Captain Kal" The Phantom Zone miniseries, Pre Crisis, showed us what we consider the PZ is really the outermost regions of a multi-region sentient alternate universe named Aethyr. My idea on the Phantom Zone predated that miniseries, back to when Faora was kicking butt on Earth and manipulating the lovestruck human guy. FWIW, apparently the Aethyr makes an appearance in tomorrow night's Smallville episode. Quote I believe it was Moore who penned the last Pre Crisis Phantom Zone story where Myzptlk took over the whole shebang so he could have fun torturing the Kryptonians there 'cause it's so much fun. That was Steve Gerber's "The Final Chapter Of The Phantom Zone Criminals", which came out the same month as Moore's "Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow". Title: Re: Proving a point, need some help. Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on September 29, 2005, 10:36:07 AM I owe you one Mxy, I forgot about Smallville tonight.
|