Superman Through the Ages! Forum

The Superman Family! => Other Superfriends => Topic started by: Super Monkey on September 30, 2005, 02:27:53 AM



Title: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman Fam
Post by: Super Monkey on September 30, 2005, 02:27:53 AM
Ok, so besides Superman and all his related characters, who are some of your other all-time favorite heroes.

Mine would be:

Captain Marvel and the Marvel Family
Spacehawk
Dr. Fate
Plastic Man


Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
Post by: ShinDangaioh on September 30, 2005, 08:25:48 AM
Captain marvel and the Marvel Family.
The heroes from League of Champions: Icicle, Icestar, Flare, Huntsman, Psyche, Giant, Sparkplug

Captain Thunder and Blue Bolt

Gatchaman aka Eagle Riders aka G-Force(Battle of the Planets)


Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
Post by: nightwing on September 30, 2005, 10:54:11 AM
Hmm...I've got my thinking cap on.  Who do I like...Who do I like...



(http://batfan.superman.nu/images/cowl-on300.jpg)


Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
Post by: Genis Vell on September 30, 2005, 12:30:12 PM
Spider-Man (#1, for me) and the Fantastic Four.


Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
Post by: Captain Kal on September 30, 2005, 01:47:40 PM
I like Green Lantern and the GLC in general, with Hal Jordan and Alan Scott my particular favourites.  And Guy Gardner has gotten short-changed too often but now seems to finally be getting written properly.

Ultra Boy is my favourite Legionnaire 'cause he's that delightful package of uber-power level but incredible constraints that make for interesting encounters.  I generally like the Legion though I qualify that with the Pre Five-Year-Gap Legion and Waid's Legion after that.  The stuff inbetween really doesn't appeal to me and I think they lost complete sight of what the LSH was about in that interim period.

Barry/Flash and any flash concept pre-Speed Force I like.  The Speed Force seems to have caused more problems than it solved, IMHO.  Even Wally's Mach One speed and other limitations seemed better to me.


Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on September 30, 2005, 04:57:13 PM
Batman (old skool)
The Flash
Green Lantern (Kane era)
Adam Strange
FF (Kirby era)
Congorilla (just cause its sooooooooooooooo weird)


Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
Post by: TELLE on September 30, 2005, 06:54:33 PM
Quote from: "nightwing"
Hmm...I've got my thinking cap on.  Who do I like...Who do I like...

Nightwing, is that really you???

I like all of the pre-Crisis DC and Marvel heroes (with the exception of some Johnny-come-lately Bronze Agers like Booster Gold, Firestorm, 80s X-men, etc.).  I find most of the characters tolerable and the artists involved more important (although great characters like Ben Grimm, Siegel's Superman, etc. are more compelling than some).


Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
Post by: MatterEaterLad on September 30, 2005, 10:47:52 PM
The Flash (Barry and Jay)
classic Green Lantern (Hal, some episodes of Alan)
The Spectre
Doctor Fate
40s and 50s Batman


Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
Post by: nightwing on October 01, 2005, 09:01:21 PM
Quote
Nightwing, is that really you???



'Tis I.  But the location of the bat-cave must remain my secret.

Oh, and I also like Plastic Man, Dr. Strange, the old-guard JSA, vintage Captain Marvel and Kirby-era FF.  I think most of my favorites are tied to specific eras or creators, whereas Supes and Batman work for me in many forms/


Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
Post by: Super Monkey on October 01, 2005, 10:06:51 PM
Quote from: "nightwing"
Quote
I think most of my favorites are tied to specific eras or creators, whereas Supes and Batman work for me in many forms/


Superman and Captain Marvel are my big two, I like them about even. Yet, I have a lot more Superman stuff around here than Cap stuff, but that is only because there isn't a lot of Captain Marvel stuff to buy, at least nothing I can afford. Can Rao and Shazam join forces and bring us a Showcase Shazam for the love of Hill Billy Marvel!

Poor Captain Marvel, DC actually has made Billy into a teenager, and not a young teen, but high schooler! Can you believe that? Sheesh, how clueless can DC be? Talk about not being even remotely close to getting that character.

I must say that I have a serious love-hate relationship with DC these days.

They do really stupid things like make Superman into a whiny non-smiling grim stale loser and have also made Batman into the most unlikable "hero" ever, he is actually more annoying and jerkish than most villains nowadays, that's not my Batman. I think the writers there have taken the whole Dark Knight bit too far, IMHO. Batman is one of those characters that nearly write themselves, you really have to be an full blown moron to screw him up, yet they have, go figure.

On the good side of things, they release really sweet action figures and reprints like that Showcase Sliver Age Superman, those are terrific!

Someday we will get an "All-Star" Captain Marvel when Jeff Smith finally finishes his Captain Marvel mini series, years from now ;)

Some really old news, that is worth reading again :D, hopefully someday it will come true ;)

DC fans were a little surprised when the company announced at Comic-Con International: San Diego that Jeff Smith, best-known for his work on the award-winning Bone series, would be bringing the iconic Captain Marvel back in a four issue limited series. Although when you think about the elements of Bone which are a healthy mix of outrageous and realistic, a series like Captain Marvel which contains much of the same, seems a natural for Smith. Even if the creator wasn't sure he was the right man for the job. "When DC Comics approached me about working on Captain Marvel, I was a little hesitant at first," admits Smith. "I read a lot of superhero comics back in the '60s and '70s, including Shazam!, but I'm out of the mainstream loop these days. Mike Carlin knew that, and assured me he wanted to re-launch the character in a traditional style – an old fashioned adventure story that suited the original Binder & Beck Captain Marvel comics."

The idea of doing it along the lines of those classic creators was something Smith liked a lot. "That appealed to me," comments Smith. "A lot of what I enjoy doing in my own work on Bone is that seat-of-your-pants cliffhanger stuff. I told Mike I'd think about it, then on a visit to my parent's house, I discovered that Captain Marvel was my mom and dad's favorite comic when they were kids! Well, that decided that. I only had two major concerns: I couldn't start until my current project, Bone is finished (issue #55 summer 2003), and I wanted to write and draw the book myself. DC agreed, and here we are. Shazam!: Monster Society of Evil, a four issue, prestige format mini-series coming out some time in 2004."

Although the title: Monster Society of Evil might be the same as that classic twenty part serial from the 1940s Captain Marvel Comics, this isn't going to be the same story. "We're just stealing the name," says Smith. "It's a classic serial, but it's pretty goofy by today's standards. But don't worry, all the good villains will be in the new book. And all the odd-ball good guys. Giant, out-of-control casts of characters are my specialty."

Another specialty is writing about the darker side of things, even if that grim part is disguised amidst cute cartoon looking characters. "Writing scary stuff is also a specialty," continues Smith. "Readers unfamiliar with Bone probably think my comics are cartoony, but those who read it know Bone can be funny, but also rough, violent, and frightening. I think that balance is an important part of story-telling, so while the Captain himself will be good and honest (like all true heroes), the villains he will face will be terrifying and cruel."

The creator's not concerned with making this appeal to his existing Bone fans or the existing Captain Marvel fans. He just wants to tell a fantastic story. "I don't aim Bone at either mainstream or independent comics readers, and I won't be aiming Captain Marvel at any particular audience," explains Smith. "I plan to make this story as good and wicked as I can and let DC worry about the rest. The response I've gotten from people since the announcement has been really good – from both Indy pals and mainstream folks. I tested out my ideas on friends like Frank Miller, Charles Vess, Dean Haspiel, Paul Pope, Judd Winnick, James Kochalka, Terry Moore, and of course, Mike Carlin, and they all loved it (at least they told me they did!). Now all I have to do is finish Bone!"

Just for fun, we asked Smith if he could have any of Captain Marvel's powers, what would he want and he answered, "I'd want his magic word so I could become invincible! Shazam!"


Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
Post by: TELLE on October 03, 2005, 01:38:04 AM
They did a Mego Capt. Marvel, no?
And Mary Marvel?

My ability to like a superhero character depends primarily on the art, and then character.

A Shazam playset, with the 7 vices and a throne would be a cool PVC set!


Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
Post by: Super Monkey on October 03, 2005, 02:15:34 AM
Quote from: "TELLE"
They did a Mego Capt. Marvel, no?
And Mary Marvel?

My ability to like a superhero character depends primarily on the art, and then character.

A Shazam playset, with the 7 vices and a throne would be a cool PVC set!


Mego did Captain Marvel and Isis but no Mary Marvel.

http://www.megomuseum.com/dc/shazam.shtml
http://www.megomuseum.com/dc/isis.shtml


A PVC set would be great.


Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
Post by: nightwing on October 03, 2005, 12:09:10 PM
DC's had, what, like 5 or 6 shots at Captain Marvel and they've screwed them all up.

Same with Plastic Man, which is why I added the caveat to my last response.  Plas without Cole, Cap without Binder, Beck and Costanza... what good are they?  Sometimes I think we just have to admit that a confluence of forces came together at just the right moment to create something fantastic, but all efforts to keep it going past that moment, let alone resurrect it years later, are doomed.

DC needs to keep up its aggressive reprint schedule on Cole's Plastic Man and do a better job with Marvel family reprints.  Other than that, they shouldn't touch either character with a ten foot pole.

Incidentally while Supes and Bats had much longer runs where greatness was possible, and sometimes standard, by now they've joined Cap and Plas in  Comic Valhalla, while imposters in their costumes disgrace their legacy in modern books.


Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
Post by: Super Monkey on October 03, 2005, 12:22:38 PM
Quote from: "nightwing"
DC's had, what, like 5 or 6 shots at Captain Marvel and they've screwed them all up.

Same with Plastic Man, which is why I added the caveat to my last response.  Plas without Cole, Cap without Binder, Beck and Costanza... what good are they?  Sometimes I think we just have to admit that a confluence of forces came together at just the right moment to create something fantastic, but all efforts to keep it going past that moment, let alone resurrect it years later, are doomed.

DC needs to keep up its aggressive reprint schedule on Cole's Plastic Man and do a better job with Marvel family reprints.  Other than that, they shouldn't touch either character with a ten foot pole.

Incidentally while Supes and Bats had much longer runs where greatness was possible, and sometimes standard, by now they've joined Cap and Plas in  Comic Valhalla, while imposters in their costumes disgrace their legacy in modern books.


I must agree, the creative teams make the characters. DC only need to print 2 or 3 more archives to finish Cole's Plastic Man run, Plas keep going after that, but I see no need to reprint those ;)

DC needs to get their act together with the Fawcet reprints. There are rumors of a possible Captain Marvel, Jr. archives, but that might be just wishful thinking, though they are some people at DC that really want to see it happen, but there are a lot of factors that decide what gets reprinted. So it may never happen.

I don't want to completely give up that it will never be as good as it once was, this is why people have such high hopes for All-Star Superman and that 200 Page Captain Marvel story by Jeff Smith. Yet, I feel I still have to play the wait and see game with them both. Since after all, All-Star Batman was DC's idea of back to basics pure iconic Batman and Robin, no seriously,  so I don't trust anything that they say at this point.


Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
Post by: JulianPerez on October 03, 2005, 03:57:32 PM
My favorite superheroes (apart from Superman)? Gosh, what a question! Here's a few to start. I'm limiting myself to ten so as not to talk all day:

Captain Comet. It's like the Silver Age is encapsulated in a single man. Who can forget his rocketship, the Cometeer, operating on "Spectrum Drive?" Who could forget Professor Zackro? Who could forget the wonderful sloganeering: "Man of Destiny" and "Man of 100,000 AD!" His origin is top-notch. His powers are far from a boring suite endorsed by the Superman clones (*ahem* Captain Marvel), but included various other science fiction related abilities, like Telepathy and Telekinesis. A wonderful, imaginative synthesis of superheroism with a science fiction slant; he felt more like the LENSMAN and SLAN characters. He may not even be a superhero at all, arguably; he's...he's...well, I don't know what he is, but whatever it is, it's GREAT.


The Valkyrie. What a powerful, poignant story Steve Englehart wrote in his DEFENDERS run - the Valkyrie in love with a stone statue of a man she had never met. It really says something about the Valkyrie's vivaciousness and strong personality that on a team with Doctor Strange and Namor, the Valkyrie completely stole the show. And who can forget her winged horse, Aragorn? Not me - I'm a sucker for creatures.


Fing Fang Foom. Speaking of creatures, Fing Fang Foom was the one thing any comic book universe needs: a big monster. A superintelligent space dragon, Fing Fang Foom combines the best of science fiction and chinese myth. I especially enjoyed Fing Fang Foom when he was drawn by that one artist whose name escapes me at the moment but worked during Busiek's run.


Damien Hellstrom - "Son of Satan." The original SON OF SATAN was an underappreciated, wonderful gem of the silver age, and the most imaginative mystic comic of the 70s apart from the Englehart DR. STRANGE. Son of Satan wields a trident of "Netheranium." And I for one, don't get tired of demons. People rag on Son of Satan because of his costume, but if I was in that kind of shape, I wouldn't wear a shirt, either! I wonder how he got so fit - could it possibly be from doing a thousand SATANIC crunches in his SATANIC gym?


Hercules. I mean, specifically, the Hercules miniseries done by the wonderful Bob Layton in the early 1980s, which combined grandeur with a wonderful sense of swashbuckling humor. Many prefer Thor, but for me, Hercules's wit, humor and joy de vivre place him over his brave but grim Asgardian counterpart.


Hawkeye. Now here's a guy that had personality! Hawkeye is your average inarticulate macho man who picks fights when he's anxious, a guy that means well, but who is sabotaged by his big mouth. He is also a character who has grown more mature and less hotheaded with time, a gradual change over DECADES that is wonderful to see but is usually impossible to do, as writing is like a game of telephone: speak into one end and over several people it comes out completely different.  In real life, I hate guys like Hawkeye. But Hawkeye shows an interesting thing about fiction: characters you wouldn't like in real life are made absolutely loveable if a story makes them REAL.  

Captain Marvel (Monica Rambeau) Many writers dismiss her as a writer-obsession of Roger Stern's, but I for one, think she had potential: she had an imaginative superpower, and the first black female leader of the Avengers is nothing to sneer at. Many people talk about various DC characters that were obviously inspired by or done in the Marvel style, but Monica Rambeau was the rare animal: a Marvel character done following the DC model, instead of vice-versa. DC heroes have a vaguely "serve and protect" mentality, and are confident authority figures. Monica Rambeau, was a harbor policewoman and hardly a misanthrope like the Marvel characters; and she possessed a truly cosmic level power on the level of Superman or Green Lantern. She was a person with a confident, strong, assertive personality that was family-centered.

I recently heard Warren Ellis discuss his plans for the character, and like everything else Warren Ellis has ever done, it makes me shudder.


Doctor Light. I once had a conversation with a friend that went like this:

    ME: "You know, I think Green Arrow would be a more interesting character if he was a woman. Because then his concern for society would spring from the urge to nurture, and his anti-authority would come from feminine crabbiness."
    GUY: "Oh...you mean sort of like Dr. Light?"
    ME: "Who?" [/list]
    And that's how I was introduced to Doctor Light, a character that had wonderful potential but was never utilized. Her power alone suggests millions of permutations we the fans have thought of that no one has made use of.


    Black Panther. There's something that's just plain cool about giant robot panthers and "energy daggers." But apart from his fascinating gadgetry, the thing that is most interesting about the Panther is that he was a character created by worldbuilding - the world was created first, and the Panther second to fit into it. Everything about Wakanda is fascinating, from the great Vibranium Mound, to the heart shaped herb that gives the Panther his power, to the Panther's teenage Karate chick sidekicks, the Dora Milaje, to the aforementioned giant panther robots - the Panther has by far the most fascinating and immersive corner of the entire Marvel Universe.


    Vision/Red Tornado. Yeah, okay, they're not the same character, but the thing that works about one, works about the other: they are children in adult bodies, experiencing everything for the first time. The Vision, however, I would say is the character that lived up to his full potential, whereas the Red Tornado faded into the background. The Vision enjoyed possibly the saddest love of the entire Silver Age, starting as unrequited love because he felt he wasn't a real man, and ending with "Wanda...I can make you happy! Please...forget all the human rules and marry me." Sniff.

    Red Tornado, though, had one problem that Vision did not: he was in the Justice League. Kurt Busiek once said that in the Justice League, the ones that get the most attention in fight scenes are the heroes with the most interesting powers (Superman, Green Lantern) and the heroes with the personalities that get the most attention are the loud ones that call the most attention to themselves. Which makes it unsurprising that Red Tornado was never given anything interesting to do; there was no Wanda for him to have a poignant love with (all the women in the JLA were taken, thank you) and no "brother" or other characters to connect with. So he faded into the background, just like the Martian Manhunter, because those two loudmouths Green Arrow and Hawkman just never could shut up!   :)


    Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
    Post by: TELLE on October 04, 2005, 05:23:01 AM
    Quote from: "JulianPerez"

    Captain Comet. It's like the Silver Age is encapsulated in a single man. Who can forget his rocketship, the Cometeer, operating on "Spectrum Drive?" Who could forget Professor Zackro? Who could forget the wonderful sloganeering: "Man of Destiny" and "Man of 100,000 AD!"


    Er, I guess .... me?  

    He was that boring guy in Secret Society of Supervillains, right?


    Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
    Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 04, 2005, 09:41:43 AM
    My anti-heroes are Barry Ween, Boy Genius and Hitman.  

    I love Dr. Strange when he's done right (which is to say, not lately).  Same for Spider-Man, and Ultimate Spidey is actually darn good stuff on the whole (except for the issues featuring Ultimate Dr. Strange).

    I have a hard time thinking about this without thinking about crap writers that have given my favorites bad story arcs, so I find myself gravitating to  characters that have long runs with one good writer, which is more about the writers than the characters.


    Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
    Post by: JulianPerez on October 04, 2005, 12:19:31 PM
    Quote from: "TELLE"
    Er, I guess .... me?

    He was that boring guy in Secret Society of Supervillains, right?


    Well, I was saying that ironically because of how unjustly overlooked he was.

    ...Yeah, that's him. Though no work of fifties work is complete without at least one John Broome "Captain Comet" story in STRANGE ADVENTURES. John Broome, when writing Flash or Captain Comet, was a real treat of a writer, right up there with Gardner Fox.

    http://www.toonopedia.com/capcomet.htm

    Here's a link that explains the deal. It should be worth noting that technically, Captain Comet was the first superhero of the Silver Age; he was created after the Justice Society folded, arguably the defining end of the Golden Age. One thing I genuinely like about Captain Comet is that he has remained completely untouched by revisionism: he never received a HAWKWORLD or a MAN OF STEEL or a TWILIGHT or a LONGBOW HUNTERS that transformed him into an unrecognizeable form. He's still "the Man of Destiny."

    SSoSV was his last shot at the big time; it's worth noting that the Martian Manhunter was invited to join the Justice League, and though he was mentioned in a few early JLA issues by Gardner Fox, he was never invited to join that group.

    I read online a series proposal by Bob Rozakis which would have been for a new Captain Comet series in the late 1970s:

    http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/bobro/99588498838532.htm

    Some of the concepts here are interesting: the idea of captain comet having a "vibro-sense" used to detect emotions (similar to the sense used by the Mantis)...and the fact that Captain Comet is still physically in his thirties, but his Adam Blake secret identity has to pretend to be much, much older.


    Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
    Post by: Super Monkey on October 04, 2005, 01:06:33 PM
    Quote
    Captain Comet. It's like the Silver Age is encapsulated in a single man. Who can forget his rocketship, the Cometeer, operating on "Spectrum Drive?" Who could forget Professor Zackro? Who could forget the wonderful sloganeering: "Man of Destiny" and "Man of 100,000 AD!" His origin is top-notch. His powers are far from a boring suite endorsed by the Superman clones (*ahem* Captain Marvel), but included various other science fiction related abilities, like Telepathy and Telekinesis.


    I know you were just joking, but I must say that one of the greatest myths of Comic Books is that Captain Marvel is a Superman clone.

    DC sued Fawcet because Captain Marvel was outselling Superman during Superman's peak run! Captain Marvel's comics were selling over a million copies each and they were bi-weekly! DC didn't win the lawsuit, Fawcet ran out of money fighting them in court and were forced to close their doors. Later DC brought him and made him part of teh DC Universe.

    The bitter irony of all this is that MOST of what we think of as Superman, was taken from Captain Marvel!

    Captain Marvel was flying a whole year before Superman started copying him.
    Captain Marvel, Jr. came before Superboy.
    Hoppy the Marvel Bunny came way before any of the Super-pets.
    Mary Marvel came before Supergirl (both created by the great Otto Binder)
    The idea of having other Marvels, came before other Supermen.
    There was the Marvel Family long before there was a Superman Family.
    Captain Marvel had comedy, Sci-Fi and fantasy elements in his comics before Superman ever did.
    Heck DC went as far as making Lex Luther bald to match Dr. Sivana!
    And I can keep going... and going, and going.
    Sadly because Captain Marvel comics have been OOP for so long, most people do not know the real story of how DC tried so hard to make Superman like Captain Marvel.

    As a result you can still read, articles today calling Captain Marvel a cheap knock off,  :roll:


    Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
    Post by: JulianPerez on October 04, 2005, 01:58:25 PM
    No argument here. I was making a point that certain characters tend to borrow the Superman power suite and this is quite boring, a crime Captain Comet was not guilty of. While I thought George Perez's WONDER WOMAN reboot was alright and actually an improvement in certain ways (Ares was very frightening) I did not like that Wonder Woman, who previously had various unique powers like gliding and bullet-blocking and had a telepathic robot plane, was made to fly fast and be invulnerable. Gee, how innovative.

    CAPTAIN MARVEL is arguably the most influential superhero comic of all time. The acid-trip zany weirdness incorporating science fiction and fantasy elements like space travel was a prelude to the worldbuilding and enemies and situations apart from the usual golden age suite of gangsters and fifth columnists; in the Golden Age, usually the existence of the hero was the only departure from reality. CAPTAIN MARVEL is probably the direct comic that led to the Silver Age - at least the aesthetic that defined the Silver Age.

    It's interesting to note that in the early days of DC comics, DC assumed all of its stories were set in the "real" world. When the Silver Age came around which followed the Captain Marvel model of goat scientists, talking tigers, and Venus ruled by the Sivanas, it was more and more apparent that the DC Earth, which featured places like Gorilla City and Aquaman's Atlantis, was clearly NOT our own world and the writers set up the concept of "Earth-1." I don't think it happened by Gardner Fox and John Broome and the others getting together around a table and saying "okay, now THIS is Earth-1." The gradual creeping in of fantasy and science fiction elements made DC-Earth so different that it just HAD to be a different place; how people thought of it shifted gradually the more lost cities of gorillas they added.

    And I didn't notice the Sivana/Luthor baldness connection until you pointed it out.  :D

    As for characters that qualify as "honorable mentions" on my list of favorites and bringing us back on topic:


    Silverclaw. Mr. Busiek, kudos on this original creation! Silverclaw had a wonderful personality; a charming, sweet girl from a tiny South American nation, she has a profound desire to be liked and accepted. I am by far inured to cuteness, but Silverclaw crying when she finds her "Tio Jarvis" melted even my withered black heart. Her sentimentality, youth and sparkle-eyed idealism is honest, and so she is not emotionally manipulative or cloying as she could have been. Forget the character appearing in SUPERMAN/BATMAN - Silverclaw is the REAL return of Supergirl! Her national origin (an indigenous South American) makes her different from other shapeshifters; she can turn into cockatoos, boa constrictors, panthers, and llamas (!). She is one of the more distinctive looking female Avengers, mostly because of her ethnic appearance; most other superheroines have Ms. Marvel's face and body. While in general I am not a fan of computer coloring and highlighting in the least, but it WORKS for Silverclaw, whose shiny silver skin would have been a dull gray with the four color "dot" coloring of previous generations.

    Why is this character not more frequently used? Well, probably because two of the writers that took over AVENGERS later, Chuck Austen and Brian Michael Bendis, cannot write and wouldn't recognize a character with story potential if they walked up to them and shook their hand at a convention. It's worth noting that one of the few writers to use Silverclaw apart from her creator is Steve Englehart in AVENGERS: CELESTIAL QUEST.

    Perhaps it is that in his Kulan Gath tale, Busiek told the definitive Silverclaw story. All I know is, if I was a writer, I wouldn't want to follow THAT one up.  :D


    Just Imagine Stan Lee's Sandman. Most of these characters were meant to be one-shots, a thought exercise centered around Stan Lee working with various famous writers, meant to show how Stan the Man would write the various DC Heroes. His concepts were good on many occasions, but really, I hope something more could have been done with this particular character. He was a tough but savvy astronaut who was on occasion, cowardly in a practical way, running away from trouble, endorsing superheroism for the love of a woman instead of for a truly altruistic calling. The "Dream World" background was intense: nightmare demons that could possess people, an entire world that can only be visited in sleep. Granted, we've seen all this before in PROMETHEA, but Alan Moore's pedantic, dry monologues about the nature of reality sucked all the fun out of the dream world (and from PROMETHEA), here it was a fun background with floating islands used for battles with shapechanging nightmare creatures.


    Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
    Post by: nightwing on October 04, 2005, 03:47:29 PM
    SuperMonkey wrote:

    Quote
    DC didn't win the lawsuit, Fawcet ran out of money fighting them in court and were forced to close their doors. Later DC brought him and made him part of teh DC Universe.


    Actually what I heard was that Fawcett took a good look at comics sales in the mid-50s, saw the writing on the wall and said, the heck with all these lawyer fees, we're getting out of the comics business! (They went on doing magazines, some of which I think are still in print today!) While it may have been our loss to have Cap go out of print, in the end it was his gain.  He went out on top, or nearly so, and that's more than will ever be said for Superman or most superheroes.  If DC had just kept their grubby paws off Cap, he'd still have an unblemished record today.

    Quote

    Captain Marvel was flying a whole year before Superman started copying him.
    Captain Marvel, Jr. came before Superboy.
    Hoppy the Marvel Bunny came way before any of the Super-pets.
    Mary Marvel came before Supergirl (both created by the great Otto Binder)
    The idea of having other Marvels, came before other Supermen.
    There was the Marvel Family long before there was a Superman Family.
    Captain Marvel had comedy, Sci-Fi and fantasy elements in his comics before Superman ever did.
    Heck DC went as far as making Lex Luther bald to match Dr. Sivana!
    And I can keep going... and going, and going.


    Well, you cheated a bit there by listing Junior and Mary separately and then again as the "family," but of course you're right.

    It's no coincidence that all these Cap-like elements crept into the Super-mythos soon after the Fawcett titles folded.  Otto Binder, Cap's chief scribe, made the move to DC and introduced many of the concepts you listed off.  So you could make the argument that the Superman most of us (on this board anyway) know and love would never have existed without a "transfusion" from the Big Red Cheese!  :shock:

    JulianPerez writes:

    Quote
    It's interesting to note that in the early days of DC comics, DC assumed all of its stories were set in the "real" world. When the Silver Age came around which followed the Captain Marvel model of goat scientists, talking tigers, and Venus ruled by the Sivanas, it was more and more apparent that the DC Earth, which featured places like Gorilla City and Aquaman's Atlantis, was clearly NOT our own world and the writers set up the concept of "Earth-1." I don't think it happened by Gardner Fox and John Broome and the others getting together around a table and saying "okay, now THIS is Earth-1." The gradual creeping in of fantasy and science fiction elements made DC-Earth so different that it just HAD to be a different place; how people thought of it shifted gradually the more lost cities of gorillas they added.


    Actually I think at the start Earth-1 was supposed to be our Earth.  The first time the multiple Earth concept is mentioned, Barry Allen says something like, "On my Earth, Jay, your adventures only happened in comic books.  A writer named Gardner Fox said they came to him in dreams."  The clear implication is that Fox -- and the rest of the DC bullpen and by extension we the readers -- live on Barry's Earth.  Only later did we get the notion of Earth-Prime ("our" Earth...sadly superhero-less) and Fox, plus Julie, Elliot, Cary Bates and various others were shown living (t)here as opposed to Earth-1.

    This raises an interesting question: did Earth-1 have a comics industry identical to that of Earth-Prime up until the mid-50s and if so what happened to it?  Presumably on Earth-1 there would have been no Showcase #4 (Barry would have noticed a comic book relating his own experiences) and thus no Brave and Bold #28, no Fantastic Four #1 and so on.  Did Earth-1's comic book industry stay with funny animals, Westerns and horror titles or did it go out of business entirely?  Oddly, there are several references to DC comics in the comics themselves, like this one:

    (http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/141/400/141_4_0000199.jpg)

    So maybe there WAS a "Silver Age of Comics" on Earth-1.  But if so, what would those comics be like?  Logically they couldn't reveal the secret IDs of superheroes who were active in real life (or else all Lois would have to do is buy an issue of Action COmics to know "the secret").  So did they feature all-action stories of heroes with no reference to secret ID's?  Or did they create fictitious IDs for the heroes?  What would comics be like with no sub-plots about a hero's private life?  How would the heroes react to these things being on the stands...would they sue to get DC shut down, or would they welcome tales that helped hide their actual identities?

    Sad isn't it...40 years old and I still don't have a life.


    Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
    Post by: JulianPerez on October 04, 2005, 04:11:41 PM
    A lot of people mention their favorite as being Green Lantern in some way, I've noticed. This isn't a criticism, just an observation: is it possible it isn't so much the character himself, but the amount of worldbuilding that went around him? In my own Top Ten list, I mentioned that I loved the Black Panther, but less so for him than for things like the Techno-Jungle and the Dora Milaje, which surround him.

    Quote from: "KlarKen T5477"
    Congorilla (just cause its sooooooooooooooo weird)


    Dang it! Why didn't I think of this? Because if you don't like a giant gold gorilla whose mind you can switch to by rubbing a ring...well, you don't like anything. :)


    Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
    Post by: Super Monkey on October 04, 2005, 05:28:03 PM
    Quote from: "nightwing"
    Well, you cheated a bit there by listing Junior and Mary separately and then again as the "family," but of course you're right.


    It was a bit of a cheat but we can also include The Lieutenant Marvels (Tall Marvel, Fat Marvel and Hill Billy Marvel), Uncle Marvel, Freckles Marvel  :wink: , and even Baby Marvel  :P , the Marvel Family was just as big as Superman's, and a lot sillier of course, but in a good way :)

    Superman also borrowed Bizarro as well!

    Niatpac Levram was the creation of the devilish Wizzo the Wizard! The wizard created Levram as a mirror duplicate of Captain Marvel by casting a spell and animating Cap's image from a mirror.

    CAPTAIN MARVEL ADVENTURES No. 139, Dec 1952

    Bizarro 1st appeared a whole 6 years later, in a story by none other than Otto Binder! 8)

    Quote
    It's no coincidence that all these Cap-like elements crept into the Super-mythos soon after the Fawcett titles folded.  Otto Binder, Cap's chief scribe, made the move to DC and introduced many of the concepts you listed off.  So you could make the argument that the Superman most of us (on this board anyway) know and love would never have existed without a "transfusion" from the Big Red Cheese!  :shock:


    It's true, there just wouldn't be a Sliver Age Superman without the funny little kid with the red shirt  :)


    Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
    Post by: Spaceman Spiff on October 04, 2005, 06:56:36 PM
    Quote from: "Super Monkey"
    Superman also borrowed Bizarro as well!

    Niatpac Levram was the creation of the devilish Wizzo the Wizard! The wizard created Levram as a mirror duplicate of Captain Marvel by casting a spell and animating Cap's image from a mirror.

    CAPTAIN MARVEL ADVENTURES No. 139, Dec 1952

    I've got that story! It was reprinted in Shazam! #2 (April 1973). I just read it again, and the backward names and talking reminds me of two earlier DC characters--Mr. Mxyztplk (1944) and Zatara (1938).

    I'm going to dismiss a Zatara/Wizzo connection, since Wizzo didn't use backward talking to do his magic.

    But the Niatpac Levram/Mxyztplk connection intrigues me. To my knowledge, Mxy was the silliest thing in a Superman comic in the GA. Was Mxy "original", or was Jerry Siegel "borrowing" something from Cap that early? Or is it possible that Otto Binder "borrowed" Mxy to make Levram?


    Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
    Post by: Super Monkey on October 04, 2005, 08:22:00 PM
    Captain Marvel was created in 1940.

    Mr. Mxyztplk was created in 1944. While he wasn't based on anyone per-say, he was created in order to add some of that wacky humor of Captain Marvel in Superman's comics.

    Saying magic names backwards is an old magic bit, that dates back long before there were even comic books.

    However, it is clear that Otto based Bizzaro in part on his old creation Niatpac Levram.

    Later, Alan Moore paid tribute to Niatpac Levram in the form of the dreaded Emerpus and Shadow Supreme! :)


    Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
    Post by: nightwing on October 04, 2005, 08:53:41 PM
    Julian Perez writes:

    Quote
    A lot of people mention their favorite as being Green Lantern in some way, I've noticed. This isn't a criticism, just an observation: is it possible it isn't so much the character himself, but the amount of worldbuilding that went around him? In my own Top Ten list, I mentioned that I loved the Black Panther, but less so for him than for things like the Techno-Jungle and the Dora Milaje, which surround him.


    Yes, but this is true of Superman in a way as well.  Superman's got a bit of depth with the lost alien heritage gimmick, but really he's just a guy who does the right thing, always.  How "interesting" is that?  What made him work for me was the "Superverse" Uncle Morty and his stable of geniuses built around our boy Kal.  And yes, that's true of Hal as well; he was a straight arrow without a lot of the idiosyncrasies and quirks we usually use to define a "character."  But that whole mythology of the ring and lantern, the Universe-spanning corps, the Guardians, the "pre-history" with the Manhunters, the rogue Lantern Sinestro...it was all great.  

    This is the kind of universe-building we just don't see anymore.  Most modern comics, to my eye, focus on intensely "personal" stories of angst and doubt and what not, or if they deal with peripheral elements at all it's to tear them apart: kill off the sidekicks, break up the Corps, etc.  We need more creators on the payroll and less destroyers.

    Oh, and the ultimate example for me: the Fantastic Four.  Never in the history of comics have there been four duller or less interesting people who managed to keep a book in print for over 4 decades!  But the stuff Kirby and Lee built around them was mind-boggling: this one title gave us Dr. Doom, the return of the Sub-Mariner, the Inhumans, Galactus, the Silver Surfer, the Black Panther, Him (later Warlock), the Skrulls, Annihilus, the Negative Zone and the Microverse, just to name a few concepts that would go on to shape the whole Marvel Universe.  A modern creator would give his eye teeth to create even one concept as cool as these, and Stan and Jack cranked them out on a monthly basis.

    But if I had to look at Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben by themselves for 22 pages?  I'd be asleep in no time.


    Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
    Post by: JulianPerez on October 04, 2005, 11:49:57 PM
    Quote from: "nightwing"
    Yes, but this is true of Superman in a way as well.  Superman's got a bit of depth with the lost alien heritage gimmick, but really he's just a guy who does the right thing, always.  How "interesting" is that?  


    Ah, but Superman IS interesting!  :D

    Superman's origin is deep and profoundly meaningful, in its own way as Batman and Spider-Man's, because Superman by definition is lonely and isolated from the rest of mankind. That's why the Fortress of Solitude makes SENSE: it fills a need. Your own article explains what a tragic figure Superman's parents are. There is something very sad and poignant about how Superman and Supergirl don their headbands and light their space-menorahs to celebrate Kryptonian holidays that are only meaningful to them.

    One half-criticism I have of Alan Moore's SUPREME is that it did not have this sort of tragedy or poignancy to Supreme's origin. This is only half a complaint, because his origin introduced the trippy element of Supremium and a fascinating time paradox which may partially replace the gut-wrenching emotions of the story of the character who was the central inspiration for the Ivory Icon.

    The way I see it, Stan Lee did Superman a favor.

    In the Silver Age, most of the DC heroes had a similar, possibly identical personality in many respects: confident, resourceful male authority figures with a strong ethos centered on serving and protecting. If the nobility of heroes was no longer cookie-cutter, then Superman's pure incorruptibility becomes DISTINCTIVE and exclusively his.

    Quote from: "nightwing"
    What made him work for me was the "Superverse" Uncle Morty and his stable of geniuses built around our boy Kal.  And yes, that's true of Hal as well; he was a straight arrow without a lot of the idiosyncrasies and quirks we usually use to define a "character."  But that whole mythology of the ring and lantern, the Universe-spanning corps, the Guardians, the "pre-history" with the Manhunters, the rogue Lantern Sinestro...it was all great.  

    This is the kind of universe-building we just don't see anymore.  Most modern comics, to my eye, focus on intensely "personal" stories of angst and doubt and what not, or if they deal with peripheral elements at all it's to tear them apart: kill off the sidekicks, break up the Corps, etc.  We need more creators on the payroll and less destroyers.


    How true! And it makes additions to a long-standing mythos all the more rarer and appreciated; see above for my example of one such addition, Kurt Busiek's Silverclaw.

    Quote from: "nightwing"
    Oh, and the ultimate example for me: the Fantastic Four.  Never in the history of comics have there been four duller or less interesting people who managed to keep a book in print for over 4 decades!  

    But if I had to look at Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben by themselves for 22 pages?  I'd be asleep in no time.


    While I agree with what it is you're saying (that Stan and Jack created incredible, mind-blowing worlds and have remained unequaled at this since) I cannot agree with the statement that the Fantastic Four, all of whom had contentious, complicated personalities, were boring. They were anything but! Why? Because they changed and developed as the comic went on!

    One of the most meaningful, powerful moments in the Lee/Kirby run was when Johnny Storm, pursuing his love Crystal, was told by Reed that "a man has to do what he things is right." In thought bubbles, ol' matchead thought "That's the first time he ever called me...A MAN!"

    Johnny Storm's maturation to adulthood, ignored by later, inferior writers (Waid, Byrne) was one of many things that made the Fantastic Four's mindbending jaunts much more fun: because you cared about the characters. They were original in the sense that there was no way one would mistake them for other characters of their type.

    Mister Fantastic, despite his role as confident leader, was very different from other heroic leader-types: he was forgetful, obsessive (growing a scraggly beard when working on large projects) and endearingly clueless when it came to money and women. He was very different from Superman and Captain America and could never be confused for either of them.

    And Susan Storm? Many say that she was proof Stan couldn't write women. With respect, I don't agree; the proof that Stan understood female characters was in the fact that every time a morally ambiguous menace appeared, Sue's instinct was to nurture, to care, to show affection, instead of just punching it like her boyfriends.  This was how she subdued the Dragon Man, for example, by showing him kindness.

    Alan Moore proved in LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN that antiquated views on race and gender are pretty hilarious today. I'd LOVE to see them do a FANTASTIC FOUR movie where Reed says things to Sue like, "Sue, I'm tired of you getting distracted by your female problems!" or "Hmmm! It seems Sue was right - despite being a woman!"

    And Ben Grimm? Now there was a guy that had personality. Everybody's got their favorite Ben Grimm moment. Here's mine:
      SUE: Oh, Benjamin Grimm, you're just being OBDURATE!
      BEN: My religion's got NOTHIN' to do WITH IT![/list]


      Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
      Post by: TELLE on October 05, 2005, 12:09:01 AM
      Quote from: "JulianPerez"
      I'd LOVE to see them do a FANTASTIC FOUR movie where Reed says things to Sue like, "Sue, I'm tired of you getting distracted by your female problems!" or "Hmmm! It seems Sue was right - despite being a woman!"

      And Ben Grimm? Now there was a guy that had personality. Everybody's got their favorite Ben Grimm moment. Here's mine:
        SUE: Oh, Benjamin Grimm, you're just being OBDURATE!
        BEN: My religion's got NOTHIN' to do WITH IT![/list]


        Yeah, the FF movie we did get was a farce --a retro FF would have been quite a bit better.  Thankfully we also have the Incredibles.

        The list of FF characters always reminds me of Howard the Duck #16 wherein Howard asks Steve Gerber to name the villains in the first 20 issues of FF, like it is some kind of geek mantra that proves Gerber has lost touch with the important things in life, or something.  That issue really puzzled me as a kid.  For years!


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: nightwing on October 05, 2005, 09:37:19 AM
        Julian Perez wrote:

        Quote
        Johnny Storm's maturation to adulthood, ignored by later, inferior writers (Waid, Byrne) was one of many things that made the Fantastic Four's mindbending jaunts much more fun: because you cared about the characters. They were original in the sense that there was no way one would mistake them for other characters of their type.


        That's an interesting point.  I recently read an article in the book, "Give Our Regards to the Atom-Smashers."  The article, written by Jonathan Lethem and titled "The Return of the King" postulates that the Lee-Kirby FF run was such a success because you had two great talents in competition with each other, and what Stan brought to the table was the accent on characterization you describe.  Lethem writes:

        "Lee and Kirby were full collaborators who, like Lennon and McCartney, really were more than the sum of their parts, and who derived their greatness from the push and pull of incompatible visions.  Kirby always wanted to drag the Four into the Negative Zone -- deeper into psychadelic science fiction and existential alienation -- while Lee, in his scripting, resolutely pulled them back into the morass of human lives, hormonal alienation, teenage dating problems and pregnancy and unfulfilled longings to be human and normal and loved and not to have the Baxter Building repossessed by the City of New York.  Kirby threw at the Four an endless series of ponderous fallen gods or whole tribes and races of alienated antiheroes with problems no mortal could credibly contemplate; Galactus and the Silver Surfer, the Inhumans, Doom, etc.  Lee made certain the Four were always answerable to the female priorities of Sue Storm...famously the "weakest member of the Fantastic Four."  She wanted a home for their boy Franklin, she wanted Reed to stay out of the Negative Zone, and she was willing to quit the Four and the marriage to stand up for what she believed."

        Lethem's point is that once Lee and Kirby split, Jack went on to create all sorts of characters for DC (and later Marvel again) that were god-like, imaginative, spectacular even...but in the end unrelatable and thus boring.  The New Gods, the Eternals and the rest all flopped because Jack focused on the cosmic at the expense of the human.

        Anyway, I see where both of you are coming from and maybe the word I should use, rather than boring, is tiresome.  I agree the FF at their inception were wildly different from any other characters in comics.  My problem is they soon became parodies of themselves, to the point where I dreaded dialog scenes: I always knew we'd get some agonizing from Reed over his failure to "cure" Ben or keep Sue happy, some hand-wringing worry-fest from Sue and so on.  My usual reaction was, "I get it already...enough!"  But on the other hand, it did make them real (if not always attractive) and I guess that was essential.


        JulianPerez writes:

        Quote
        And Susan Storm? Many say that she was proof Stan couldn't write women. With respect, I don't agree; the proof that Stan understood female characters was in the fact that every time a morally ambiguous menace appeared, Sue's instinct was to nurture, to care, to show affection, instead of just punching it like her boyfriends. This was how she subdued the Dragon Man, for example, by showing him kindness.


        Well, Lethem goes on to say that if you take his analysis above to the logical conclusion, Sue becomes the embodiment of everything that ties the FF to Earthly, familial commitments, and thus her importance becomes inestimable:

        "...if you grant that pulling against the tide of all Kirby's Inhuman Galacticism, that whole army of aliens and gods, was one single character, our squeaky little Sue, then I wonder: Invisible Girl, the most important superhero of the Silver Age of Comics?"

        JulianPerez writes:

        Quote
        I'd LOVE to see them do a FANTASTIC FOUR movie where Reed says things to Sue like, "Sue, I'm tired of you getting distracted by your female problems!" or "Hmmm! It seems Sue was right - despite being a woman!"


        Yeah, I just read one last night where a famous chemist (actually the Mad Thinker in disguise) shows up to consult with Reed and Sue says, "I'll go make some tea while you men talk." :)

        Quote
        And Ben Grimm? Now there was a guy that had personality. Everybody's got their favorite Ben Grimm moment.


        I have lots of them.  My griping about the dullness of the FF notwithstanding, Ben is one of my two favorite Marvel characters, the other being Dr. Strange.  Strange is a man who rejects his petty past to serve mankind in obscurity.  Ben is a man who endures isolation and other-ness with humor and courage...other characters in fiction who become monstrous in form soon follow in mind and spirit, but Ben rejects this fate for himself.  Along with Dr Strange, I think he shows what the Marvel approach can be if done right; heroes who do what's right because it's right, in spite of everything.  In contrast, I think Peter Parker's a whiny jerk guilted into doing right by the memory of all the times he's failed to, but ready to quit the second his powers fade.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: JulianPerez on October 05, 2005, 01:36:46 PM
        Quote from: "nightwing"
        That's an interesting point. I recently read an article in the book, "Give Our Regards to the Atom-Smashers." The article, written by Jonathan Lethem and titled "The Return of the King" postulates that the Lee-Kirby FF run was such a success because you had two great talents in competition with each other, and what Stan brought to the table was the accent on characterization you describe.


        Oh, sure. Fantastic Four was one occasion where the collaboration was greater than the sum of the parts, certainly; notice for instance, how memorable Roy Thomas’s post-Lee AVENGERS was (introducing Hercules and Ultron among others) but how eminently boring his FANTASTIC FOUR was (and to a far lesser extent, Thomas’s UNCANNY X-MEN; I for one, loved the Living Monolith and Mimic but this book was canceled for a reason). By the time they got to Gerry Conway, the FF greatness was a second or third generation hand-me-down. The moment my dissatisfaction with Gerry Conway’s FF crystallized was that one story where they find a lost city of Yeti in the Himalayas. It was pretty interesting, but...didn’t both JONNY QUEST and DUCKTALES do an episode with this very concept?

        While I agree with the concept that Stan and Jack’s competition pushed them to do work together that was better than anything either of them could do alone, I remember Mark Evanier saying on his blog that Mark thought it was a myth that it was Stan who did the characterization and Jack did the mindbending stuff; according to Evanier, Jack often proposed character-centered plots and Stan proposed the Negative Zone journeys. Evanier said that the kernel around the “Galactus Saga” was an idea by Stan, not Jack, for instance.

        Quote from: "nightwing"
        Along with Dr Strange, I think he shows what the Marvel approach can be if done right; heroes who do what's right because it's right, in spite of everything. In contrast, I think Peter Parker's a whiny jerk guilted into doing right by the memory of all the times he's failed to, but ready to quit the second his powers fade.


        I never understood why Spider-Man – of ALL the Marvel heroes - was the most popular. Yes, his stories were the comics equivalent of a suckerpunch and were a laugh riot of irony and allergy attacks when fighting to save mankind, but the FF had it all over the wall-crawler in terms of mindbending concepts and characterization, and AVENGERS too, for the same reasons, only slightly different dynamic and characters. If AVENGERS and FF were foods, they’d both be ice cream, only different flavors of ice cream.

        Quote from: "nightwing"
        Lethem's point is that once Lee and Kirby split, Jack went on to create all sorts of characters for DC (and later Marvel again) that were god-like, imaginative, spectacular even...but in the end unrelatable and thus boring. The New Gods, the Eternals and the rest all flopped because Jack focused on the cosmic at the expense of the human.


        I have a higher opinion of Kirby's space opera work, generally, because I don't think everything has to be relatable. Some things can work because they're trippy and weird and alien and detatched from normal experience. Kirby's strength was trippy concepts and his weakness was characterization and dialogue, and these were series that were made to play up his strengths and downplay his weaknesses. Granted, anybody that writes such an odious, mind-destroying self-introduction like "And ME, young but COOL Harvey Lockman!" should seriously get somebody to write their dialogue for them, but nonetheless, NEW GODS wasn't about Harvey Lockman; he was a supplemental character with zero screen time that wasn't able to detract from the series with unsuccessful character stories that he was the focus of.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: Uncle Mxy on October 05, 2005, 04:31:53 PM
        Quote from: "JulianPerez"
        Quote from: "nightwing"
        In contrast, I think Peter Parker's a whiny jerk guilted into doing right by the memory of all the times he's failed to, but ready to quit the second his powers fade.

        I never understood why Spider-Man – of ALL the Marvel heroes - was the most popular. Yes, his stories were the comics equivalent of a suckerpunch and were a laugh riot of irony and allergy attacks when fighting to save mankind,


        Spider-Man's gone through totally dumb storylines.  Too often, his powers fade because of a cold or something.  Too often do they have him chuck the mask for an issue or two at a dumb setback.  When written right, he's a witty guy who can do a little of everything, and I think that's where his appeal lies.  Since there was much gushing about the FF -- Spidey's strong, but isn't gonna beat up the Thing.  He's a smart scientist, but not Reed Richards.  He's exuberant, but tends to be more mature than the Human Torch (except when around Johnny and then they both regress :) ).  And he's got lots of "normal" problems and concerns that lots of folks can relate to, the sort of normalcy that Sue Storm brings to the FF.  Throw that together with a memorable zoo of villains and good supporting cast, add a snazzy "radioactive blood" theme song, and you have a great character.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: TELLE on October 06, 2005, 06:16:05 AM
        Quote from: "nightwing"

        Anyway, I see where both of you are coming from and maybe the word I should use, rather than boring, is tiresome.  I agree the FF at their inception were wildly different from any other characters in comics.  My problem is they soon became parodies of themselves, to the point where I dreaded dialog scenes: I always knew we'd get some agonizing from Reed over his failure to "cure" Ben or keep Sue happy, some hand-wringing worry-fest from Sue and so on.  My usual reaction was, "I get it already...enough!"


        On the other hand often Kirby or Lee would include some dialogue that explicitly commented on this situation.  Most commonly, the Thing would sarcastically mention Reed's speeches, etc.  Especially Lee, but Kirby was in on it too, ironically parodied themselves.  Not Brand Ecch notwithstanding.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on October 06, 2005, 06:34:02 AM
        "Speaking of NOT BRAND ECCH their parodies in one issue of both Stupor Man and the Fantastical Four were near classic MAD in their hilarity levels."

        "Why dontcha talk English, Stretcho?"

        "Ok Ben - lotsa yuks."


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: nightwing on October 07, 2005, 08:35:15 AM
        Here's the Stupor-Man story from that issue:

        http://nightwing.supermanfan.net/oddities/stuporman_1.htm


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: Super Monkey on October 07, 2005, 12:56:28 PM
        If you want to read something really sad and pathetic....

        http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000043351&tstart=0

        Threads like that make you really appreciate websites like this.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: TELLE on October 07, 2005, 02:09:10 PM
        While sad and pathetic, it also makes me angry. :D

        What is happening to the fans of the world?

        Billy Batson ... with an edge!  Maybe he could be a heroin addict and a victim of a child porn ring and maybe he could use his lightning bolt power to impale evildoers and send them to hell, after torturing them!  And maybe instead of that cheesy red costume, some black studded motorcycle leathers --and maybe he should carry an axe!


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on October 07, 2005, 10:10:43 PM
        Quote from: "nightwing"
        Here's the Stupor-Man story from that issue:

        http://nightwing.supermanfan.net/oddities/stuporman_1.htm

        Nothing like Mort Weinieberger and his ENB-posse.

        But the big joke is didnt DC actually destroy all the silver age mythos much like ol' Stupes does? :roll:


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: JulianPerez on October 09, 2005, 03:48:55 PM
        Hehe, thanks for the message board link, Supermonkey.

        Quote from: "Shazam1975"
        Maybe John Byrne should take a stab at this - they wouldn't have to tie it into continuity at all!


        OH, GOD NO!

        There's an obvious joke here about how "wait, since when does Byrne's stuff EVER really worked in continuity," but you won't see me making it, nossir.

        Quote from: "Shazam1975"
        Just get someone to co-write it with him...maybe Mark Waid? Grant Morrison?


        Quote from: "cellmate"
        NO WAY! No more kid stuff! He's suppose to be a teen now. But they keep making him look like he's 12. Let's make him a man and be done with it. Then we can explore a real life with him. Romance??? When has he ever had a real romance??


        I always got a feeling him and Beautia, Sivana's half-daughter, had a thing, but I suppose that sprang entirely from my imagination.

        Seriously, Billy Batson as an adult? What would be the POINT of Captain Marvel then?

        Quote from: "cellmate"
        It's not "just" romance that he could explore. But where does he live? I don't think he has a job. Where's a supporting cast???? I'm not talking about "talking tigers" either. Ultimate Universe is a serious departure from the regular. Sue Richards a scientist? Doc Doom with hooves??? Cap with super strength and that kills? Thor a Hippie??? Spiderman is the only one that was similar. But even Aunt May is younger.


        Of course, what this poster doesn't point out is that the Ultimates have been universally conceptually divorced, grotesque, glacially paced, and all-round lousy - AND THAT'S JUST THE SORT OF APPROACH WE WANT FOR THE BIG RED CHEESE!

        And what's wrong with Mr. Tawny, the Talking Tiger? I've always been in favor of leaving characters period, but this sort of person has not gone away; I'd love to see an update of him. He'd probably listen to National Public Radio and drink Zima. (hey wait, that's me! :)

        Quote from: "Shazam1975"
        Mark Waid seems to have a deep respect for the character, along with Alex Ross - maybe they should be the creative team for All Star Captain Marvel?


        As jaw droppingly amazing as Alex Ross's art is, I don't like his treatment of Captain Marvel. He just stuck the Big Red Cheese in the back of crowd scenes in the JLA - an organization he was never a member of until the 1980s. Captain Marvel is not great just because he is a great individual hero, but because of the wonderful world that surrounded him: Mr. Mind, Mr. Atom, Shazamo, the planet Venus, the crocodile men of Punkus, and yes, even the much maligned Mr. Tawny, the Talking Tiger. Allowing him to chew up background is not using any of his strengths as a character. Sticking him in the back of a JLA Class Yearbook Photo does no credit to his greatest advantage: the power of the imaginative concepts that surrounded him.

        I don't like making fun of modern age fans, because it's like shooting a fish taped to the end of a gun. Actually their goggle-vision and damaged long term memory is really more clueless than funny. For instance: if you want to play a fun drinking game, take a shot every time somebody on that board mentions KINGDOM COME.

        Despite the fact it was ludicrously implausible (would any of the morally immaculate Silver Age DC heroes place anyone in a GULAG and go power-mad?), despite the fact it was possibly the most cliche storyline of the entire modern age (insane superheroes, "Silver Age gets revenge" proxy revenge fantasy, older superheroes coming out of retirement, Superman and Batman fighting one another - there's not a single thing in KINGDOM COME we haven't seen a million times before) despite its infuriating pretention (the BIBLE QUOTES?) somehow this one work is pointed to as the correct characterization for someone that was barely an incidental character inside of it (Captain Marvel).

        Notice too, that besides taking a moment to slam that Silver Age straw man, Mr. Tawny, none of them ever mention any other member of the Marvel Family. And therein lie some pretty interesting questions about how they can be updated, but none of them are ever asked by these fans, as they're totally off the radar for them.

        For instance: since the MM family stories appeared, there has been a social and national schism between "blue state" and "red state" which might be interesting to influence the dynamic of Tall Marvel (from Texas) and Fat Marvel (from Brooklyn). Perhaps they get along despite their differences. Perhaps they fight a lot but come to one another's aid in a brotherly way, Ham and Monk style. Either way, an update would make them stronger instead of weaker.

        Here's a question nobody's asking: how would someone update Hillbilly Marvel? He's radioactively politically incorrect.

        Quote from: "cellmate"
        So he just remains a child forever......Good Grief. Will you listen to yourselves??? Change has brought some the greatest to our iconic heroes!

        Byrne's Change of Krypton

        Miller's change in Batman

        Diana can fly under her own power from Perez

        Aquaman's hook and beard.


        I invite you all to weep very, very bitterly with me.

        Although I *do* believe comic book characters ought to change and grow naturally and on-camera and in-story. Hawkeye's acquisition of maturity and the quest for redeption by Wonder Man are growth that happened over DECADES in the hands of writers skilled at characterization.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: Permanus on November 14, 2005, 05:02:22 AM
        Quote from: "JulianPerez"
        Seriously, Billy Batson as an adult? What would be the POINT of Captain Marvel then?


        I suppose he could turn into a child version of Captain Marvel! I'm trying to find some advantage to this, but I can't quite see it yet...


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: Sword of Superman on March 13, 2006, 05:39:12 PM
        HAWKMAN!!
        Because the reincarnation thing,the endless love and the tribal look of the character is too way fascinating,in all is incarnation i love the Winged Wonder.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: MatterEaterLad on March 13, 2006, 06:56:09 PM
        I liked those aspects of Hawkman as well, unfortunately, I can't follow the twisty tale of Hawkman through the last 20 years for the life of me... 8)


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: lastkryptonianhere on March 14, 2006, 10:19:03 PM
        Marv Wolfman & George Perez on the New Teen Titans - especially Robin/Nightwing, Wonder Girl and Cyborg

        Outstanding series from the early and mid 1980's

        (Superman connection --- when Dick Grayson gave up the Robin idenity he then took up the mantle of Nightwing --- due to the influence Superman had on his life and career)

        Hawkman by Murphy Anderson

        Batman (epecially when the art was handled by Neal Adams and Jim Aparo)


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: TELLE on March 15, 2006, 12:58:25 AM
        In the 80s, right before I stopped reading most superhero comics, I enjoyed Steve Rude's Nexus.  I think it still holds up (I might even buy a new issue of it).  And Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.  Moore gave a dimensionality to many superheroes I was ambivalent about previously (Deadman, Spectre, Demon, the Trenchcoat Brigade).  His War in Heaven annual is almost a textbook on reinvigorating old aspects of the multiverse.

        In retrospect, there is still some fun to be had in 80s pre-Crisis DC besides the Superman comics I pursue.  Just learned about Alan Brennert, for instance.  Oh yeah, I loved Chaykin's Blackhawk as well!  Not a kid's comic, but I thought it was quite sophisticated.  Of course, of the 2 major WWII-themed US comics from that period, I still prefer Maus.

        Glad to see this thread reanimated.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: TELLE on March 15, 2006, 12:59:19 AM
        Of course, Blackhawk was post-Crisis.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: Dial H For Hero on March 15, 2006, 08:29:28 PM
        After Superman it's difficult to pick one favorite hero, but the O'Neill/Adams era Batman and the Infantino era Flash both stand out fondly in my memories. On pure concept alone, I'd pick Green Lantern, although in general I was not an avid reader of his stories.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: TELLE on March 15, 2006, 11:13:01 PM
        Golden or Silver GL?

        I just found an old Green Lantern Corps annual at Value Village with that Alan Moore story and a great early story by Busiek (nice Garcia Lopez art, I think).  I would have ignored this comic when it came out (the last GL comic I bought as a teen had a Perez cover but disappointing interior art and the Omega Men featured prominently --I wish Alan Moore wrote it).

         The concept of the GL Corps makes for a fun sic-fi universe but I don't think it compares to the Superman family universe.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: Gangbuster on March 16, 2006, 04:51:56 PM
        My favorites are:

        Silver Age Fantastic Four, Hulk, and Spider-Man

        Alan Moore's Swamp Thing (I don't know if it could be classified as "Superhero" comics, but in a way it is)

        and of course, the whole Justice League, unless you consider it "Superman Family"


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: Dial H For Hero on March 16, 2006, 08:08:25 PM
        Quote from: "TELLE"
        Golden or Silver GL? ...



        I had Hal Jordan in mind, although the original was cool in his own way. I think it's true of many comic book heroes that they are better in concept than they are in execution, and any of the GLs would fit into that category. You could even argue that Superman has only rarely been used to his full potential, either because his writers were afraid to take risks with the established continuity (as in the silver/bronze age until COIE), or because they thought Superman had to be less powerful to be believable (Byrne and his successors). It's been said that Batman is the most fully realized of the major heroes, and I would probably have to agree, even though I am (and always will be) much more of a Superman fan.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: TELLE on March 16, 2006, 11:06:41 PM
        Yeah, Batman has been explored in many ways that seem to stretch aspects of the character to the fullest, but the logical story arcs of a Superman have rarely been touched on.

        As far as fully realized, I think there is a ton of room for more characterisation for both characters.  Maybe someone like Busiek, who among the 2 current interesting Superman writers, has the best gift for character and voice, will do something with that.

        And as for Swamp Thing and what constitutes a superhero, I found this new definition by Peter Coogan, an academic who has written a book called the Secret Origin of the Superhero:

        Quote
        Superhero (soo'per hîr'o) n., pl. -roes.  1. A heroic character with a selfless, pro-social mission; who possesses superpowers-extraordinary
        abilities, advanced technology, or highly developed physical and/or mental skills (including mystical abilities); who has a superhero identity embodied in a codename and iconic costume, which typically express his biography or character, powers, and origin (transformation from ordinary person to superhero); and is generically distinct, i.e. can be distinguished from characters of related genres (fantasy, science fiction, detective, etc.) by a preponderance of generic conventions.  Often superheroes have dual
        identities, the ordinary one of which is usually a closely guarded secret.
        -superheroic, adj. Also super hero, super-hero.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: SteamTeck on June 25, 2006, 12:36:30 PM
        Most of my favorites no  longer exist but evil substatutes have taken their place but I enjoy

         The mighty Thor- classic version- Walt Simonson's run was my favorite
        Iron man - again classic not the guy who shows up now
        Captain America-classic again
        Wally West Flash when  he first came out when he had to deal with the laws of motion and iertia, limited to soundspeed and had to eat alot
        Wonder Woman- although I loathed Greg Rucka's version down to my soul( I wish he would just get out of comics)
        Batman- NOT Frank Millers
        Earth 2 Huntress
        Earth 2 Powergirl
        Green Lanterns- I love the concept ( but hate Kyle with apassion)


        Julian Perez, I agree completely about Kingdom Come. I was trying to get back into comics and readthe Darn thing and nearly popped a vein. I still get pissed off if I read it ( Kind of like the whole dark age of comics in a nutshell it is) I didn't try anything for years until I returned to comics in a vain attempt to find some as fun and high quality as the TAS cartoons.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: ShinDangaioh on June 26, 2006, 06:42:39 AM
        By the Power of Greyskull: He-Man
        For the Honor of Greyskull: She-Ra

        With He-Man, there are so many different timelines to choose from.  The remakes were just that and did not go out of their way to remove what went before. Starship Eternia anyone?

        With She-Ra, there is only two timelines to concern yourself with.  The comics that came with the dolls(which I have never read) and the cartoon.


        Title: Re: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman
        Post by: Michel Weisnor on June 26, 2006, 10:09:12 AM
        Captain Marvel was imaginative, whimsical, joyful, and fun. Fawcett's big red cheese is a complete antithesis to this eras Shazam! incarnation. Any series with a talking tiger, a super bunny, and an intelligent villainous worm gets my vote!

        Rip Hunter: Time Master (DC) is the Silver Age time traveler par excellence. He's truly one of the forgotten heroes.

        Kid Eternity (Quality) was innocent fun with a Captain Marvel appeal. I loved his most "dangerous" villains Her Highness and Silk.  

        The Spirit (Quality): Will Eisner's Denny Colt ran the gamut of witty adventures.

        Plastic Man (Quality): Quirky and sort of Three Stooges like, Eel fought for the right to be surreal.