Superman Through the Ages! Forum

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/allstarsuperman/issue1_preview.htm

Apparently the Morrison redesign is a thing of the past. Just as well. It was a better idea in theory than in practice, anyway. While I'm still not keen on Quitely's art, the emblem change does help, at least a little bit. The Morrison logo made his chest look even blobbier than it already does.

And not only that, the 'S' is HUGE.

They should have at least used the Curt Swan/Superman Returns size.

It's really starting to look like the delay on this book has been someone in DC editorial messing it up.  I can't believe they let that guy still work there...

:s:

The shield was huge in the original Quitely art, when it was still the Morrison redesign. The classic shield seems to be sized to fit where the redesign was:

http://tinypic.com/e66byw.jpg

And if the emblem is one of the reasons the book has been pushed back, why didn't DC deal with it right from the start? "Sorry, Grant, but your redesign for the emblem looks...pretty lame. Let's stick with the usual." It wouldn't have taken much to settle the problem right away. Then again, Quitely's infamously slow, so that probably had something else to do with it.

I don't know how I feel about this, to be honest I feel that the old logo fit his art style a lot better than this forced photoshop edit job DC did.

Ugh!  That Photoshop-ed logo looks wrong wherever it shows up, even if it's more like the normal logo than Quitely's original.  One of those shots makes Supes' chest look like it was drawn by Liefeld.

You forget this is the same company that in the past has actually gone as far as physically publishing certain comic-books, but then pulled them and pulped them for editorial reasons.  DC is just a bit slow when it comes to things like that.  I suppose it's better to have the book be delayed now rather than be pulled out of our hands and pulped before we get the chance to read it.


I don't think Quitely is the one going through and re-doing all the S logos.

To correct the subject line, the cover-up emblem isn't "classic."  It's emblematic of everything wrong with the Iron Age, and I don't want this to be the Iron Age Superman.  Plus,  I really really hate that extra-thick black line that DC keeps insisting be between the yellow and the red.

I thought the Quitely original never looked like a modification, it just looked like part of his art style and fit very well.  I liked it a lot and am very disappointed that it's suffering the same fate as Jack Kirby's faces did back in Jimmy Olsen.  But at least the artists who did that cover-up work were human beings, who had talent and their own art style.  This is just generic and ugly.

Somehow it reminds me of the Ma and Pa Kent redesign (http://superman.nu/a/History/birthright/ma_and_pa.php) that afflicted Birthright.  In that case too, I think the original idea was better, more true to the Superman legend, and the enforced change diminished the end result.  Yes, I blame DC editorial for Birthright's less-than-stellar sales performance. :wink:

I'm not opposed to all editorial changes (like those that used to be imposed on Frank Miller until after DK), just to the mistaken ones, probably dictated by marketing departments or something.

(Okay DC marketroids, look at Superman #400 (http://superman.nu/a/400/cover.php) - that sold like oxygen tanks in Atlantis, and Superman's S logo was completely different on every single page!  And I don't even want to think about Al Williamson, Will Eisner, Moebius, Klaus Janson, or any of those other artists being subjected to Quitley's fate..)

:s:

Shades of Jack Kirbys experience on Jimmy Olsen.

I really think Quietlys art will go down to hurt this book the way Lenil Yus art hurt Birthright. But even so, this seems like a sleazy move on DCs part. I mean if DC wasn't happy with the \S/ design why wait until after the post production stage. Isn't this the reason there are editors?

The only thing I can think of is something I've been begining to suspect for awhile which is that there has been a power struggle going on inside DC Comics for years now and both sides have someone in positions of power to get things published. Which is why Waid and Morrsion can be told one minute that they'll never "get the keys to the family car" and then the next be doing Birthright or All Star. Just like how Giffen was able to be doing FKATJL while at he same time Identity Crisis was spewing forth it's grimschlock bile with cheapheat, shock value deaths of characters he was using.

It seems these sides are divided in a way simalar to the fandom itself. One side worhsips at the altar of Watchmen and Frank Miller and wants all comics to conform to that. While the other would lik to see the sun and the general audience again.

This is speculation so please don't think I'm trying to be Oliver Stone or something, this is just an impression I have based on things that have have happened and things said in interviews.

Frank Quietly and Lenil Yus might be a required taste, but they are not bad artists.

People complain that they do not draw every women like a Playboy bunnies and not every guy like a GQ Models.

Frank Quietly seem to have based his Superman on the Wayne Boring model.

see for yourself:

http://www.supermanartists.comics.org/superart/wayneboring.htm

I hold DC editorial accountable for a lot of what went wrong with Birthright, too (although it has been faring better as a TPB). But I still think fan close-mindedness was the bigger culprit. It's what helped sink Trinity, after all. As far as the emblem goes, I was game to see what the redesign looked like until I saw it in practice. It just looks off to me. As far as the "Iron Age" look of the reinserted classic emblem, the Quitely original was already gigantic. So to me, that's not an issue. (Rumor has it that Quitely's still not finished with issue #2 after having nearly a year's lead time, which gives me major pause. Travis Charest got tons of lead time on Wildcats, and he still couldn't handle the schedule.) To me, the emblem should have been addressed early on and dealt with. Waiting to get the mixed reaction to the emblem from the previews before taking action was a mistake.

Then again, hiring an artist who from the sound of things isn't capable of handling a regular schedule and whose style is violently polarizing the readership wasn’t the best idea, either. If an artist can’t handle a monthly schedule, or least can’t whack out four or five issues before needing a fill-in, why hire that person in the first place? Why not hire someone more capable to do the honors? I remember when Ed Benes first took over Superman, and just about EVERYBODY was going wild about his artwork. Aside from one fill-in from Tony Daniel, Benes has been doing very well for himself on that book. Why didn’t DC get HIM to do All-Star Superman? He’s got a style just about everybody loves, his Superman is fittingly iconic, he can manage more than two issues a year…why didn’t DC shoot for that? Or even Ivan Reis, whose art was the sole thing about Chuck Austen’s Action run that got unceasing kudos? (He’s now said to be taking over Green Lantern following Pacheco and Van Sciver.) They’ve got tons of artistic talent at DC, guys who put Quitely to shame in just about every capacity. Guys who could crank out a monthly book without much trouble and give the book the "iconic" look ALL-STARS is supposed to have. It wouldn’t have taken much effort to pick one of those guys, put them on All-Star Superman, and said "Run with it." Instead we get a guy who apparently is still way behind on the book and whose style is leaving people split down the middle.

I have to agree with the assessment that Leinil Yu did more harm than good to Birthright (his art grew on me, but I could see why others were alienated by it), and that Quitely’s going to do exactly the same thing to All-Star Superman. But if he can’t even make the schedule with a year’s worth of lead time, that’s going to be an even bigger problem. Green Lantern’s been running into trouble due to artist-related delays (especially with Pacheco and Van Sciver leaving), and that’s something a judicious artist change could easily correct. If the best All-Star can manage is two issues or so a year, what’s the point? You might as well not bother making it a monthly book and just release it as a graphic novel. It’s ridiculous, because this book sounded so promising at first. But after the sketches, the previews, the changes to the art post-preview, and now rumors that Quitely’s still falling behind, this book’s looking like it’s not going to live up to its promise. DC should have manned up, made all its creative decisions early on, gotten an artist who could handle the schedule, and been done with it. Instead this looks like a mess. And it didn't have to be.

I have not seen Ed Benes's artwork since Many Happy Returns, there he seem to have a problem drawing men, though no problem drawing women :) I heard that he has improved a lot when it comes to men, so can you post some links to his latest artwork and his latest versions of Superman.

I am not a fan of Frank Quietly, but I do not hate his stuff, the colorist is really great on All-Star Superman, so he is making him look a lot better than he would have.

Frank Quietly got hired because Grant Morrison demanded him to get hired and DC caved in, though but the looks of things, DC seems to not like him as much as Grant.

And don't listen to Rumors on-line! That started off as a joke about Frank Quietly being so slow, it is not really true, people just took it as such.

My own uconfirmed suspicion about artists is you get what you pay for.

The better artists cost more, or at least I'd pay them more to do the same books.

Notice how the books that are struggling or need a boost get the great artists (and to a lesser degree, the better writers)?

Notice how when a book is doing well that we're suddenly treated to some bad rate second-stringer of an artist and/or writer?  That's when the publisher thinks they can coast off the sheer rep of the good material so they've cut their costs of production to increase their friggin' profit margin.

Superman being one of the biggest characters at DC tends to be almost guaranteed drek artists for his books.  DC is counting on the sheer name of the character to carry the day so they can get away with substandard art.

IMHO

Ed Benes:
http://www.dccomics.com/media/covers/4565_400x600.jpg
http://www.dccomics.com/media/covers/4401_400x600.jpg
http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/4637/124ns.jpg
http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/1478/210vo.jpg
http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/9149/258ol.jpg
http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/7026/074ly.jpg
http://img308.imageshack.us/img308/5219/edbenessupes4we.jpg
http://img283.echo.cx/img283/3412/edbenessuperman21gy.jpg

One of many terrific artists DC could have given All-Star Superman to. And I dare say he might have done better with Birthright than Yu did.

Comparing  Frank Quitely to Ed Benes is like comparing Curt Swan to Dan Jurgens.

:s:

Every muscle like an airbrushed meatloaf applied to a skeleton...

Blech... 8)

http://www.dccomics.com/media/covers/4565_400x600.jpg

Suffering sappho, is that a neck or two ionic columns with a picture of Montgomery Burns in the middle?

Are those scales on his neck?  :shock:


also why is Superman Asian?

Why does the style look like Jim Lee- a thalidomide Jim Lee? Not that I like Jim Lee but yipes tripes! :shock:

I like Ed Benes's stuff. He's got a good energy to his work. When I first heard he would be drawing Superman I was skeptical because I'd mainly seen his work on Supergirl and Birds of Prey.

But then I saw his take and I was pleasantly surprised. I still can't get into the writing on any modern Superman book but I like this guys art. He is very much a Jim Lee influence but I think his style has enough going on that it's just a matter of time before the agressive Lee influence get's shaken off and the guy comes into his own.

What I find really odd is that they didn't just keep him to work on the new Supergirl title since he really shined when he was drawing Kara Zor-El during those last few issues of clonejello/earthbound angel or whatthehelleversheis Supergirl.

I liked it myself. Editing or no editing. Then again, I try to reserve judgement on artist until four or five issues into the series when they seem to find their footing. I DEFINITELTY agree about Green Lantern. The publishing was is so slow, I'm still not sure if Hal Jordan has returned or not.

http://www.dccomics.com/comics/cm_popup.php?i=4694

While we are on the topic of Ed Benes' Superman, his art is sometimes hit or miss with me, but I do like this upcoming cover for Superman #225.

Its just not well drawn, the over developed bicep (its just a bulge) has no insertion near the medial radius/ulna, the foreshortening makes the forearms appear totally out of context...airbrushed shading and spectacular splash pages aside, these are not well drawn panels! 8)

Careful, MatterEaterLad, or else guys like Kuuga will come down on you for pushing for more realistic comics art instead of interpretive or even cartoony art that somehow is 'more expressive'.  I don't see it that way, but to each their own.

On my worst/best day, I've not gotten that worked up over anatomical correctness in comics.  OTOH, I learned to accept the distortions of the SA Justice League art like Dillin and McLaughlin so I'm a lot more forgiving of anatomical gaffes.

Ar-Thur8691, I'm not entirely sure Hal Jordan has come back, the sluggish publishing schedule notwithstanding.  The issues that are coming out are drenched in gore and darkness which is a far cry from the soaring space opera and fun of the original Hal stories.  This guy has Hal's name and the book is titled Green Lantern but it doesn't resemble the legendary Hal tales in any other way.  Same goes for the cancelled The Spectre series by J.M. DeMatteis.

Who knew that Lois and Clark were Asian! Must be from a different Earth.

I try not to obsess about that, but it just seems amazing to me that people who talk about poor artwork in the past because there is no airbrush effect coloring on muscles and no giant dramatic splashpage overlook the fact that in many modern comics, that the human figure is not drawn well with believable foreshortening...some "classic" artists got by with unusual poses, others like Swan could just DRAW...

That's what I'm saying...

I don't come down on the current era as much as some people, but Good Lord, I'll be having nightmares from the shark issue alone.



You know, it took me some time to really appreciate Curt Swan. Definetly the definitive Superman artist or at least the top two. :wink:

The heck? I'm not sure at what point I have ever come down on realistic art. Man, if I hated realistic art then why would I say that I like Alex Ross or suggest Alan Davis as an artist for All Star? Why would have been griping about Garcia Lopez penicls getting butchered by Klaus Janson inks on his JLA run? I have defended "cartoony" art as not being this inferior thing, and yes I like it very much and I've defended Ed McGuiness specifically but I have never said that realistic art is bad.

I don't think that Benes is a bad artist -- wonky anatomy doesn't necessarily bother me, it's not like Jack Kirby drew people accurately after all -- but (a) I hate the way he draws eyes, and (b) he oversexualizes all the women he draws. I really don't need to see worm's-eye shots of Lois Lane's ass. It's just not apropriate.

I don't think MEL was coming down on you Cap. I like a lot of today's group of artists. Although alot of them do tend to oversex the gals. I blame Jessica Rabbit. :wink:

No, it was a totally different point...Kirby's exaggerations were almost always in a manner that cartooned character, heads and faces, height...my criticism is aimed at those that exaggerate muscular development to the point that the muscles make no sense...I guess both might set some people off, but gawd, look at Power Girl lately...

But the PowerGirl thing is a bit different than they stylization of muscles we're talking about because with Power Girl for the longest time they have drawn her as an almost female wrestler type build (with huge merchandise). I guess to distinguish her from whatever version of Supergirl is around.

Recently, I've noticed though that they have a tendancy to slim her down. I guess in an effort to make her more attractive. (But they kept the huge merchandise).

Well, her quadraceps here look pretty insane, especially since she is just in a standing pose, not oiled and flexing...

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/JSA/JSA82Pre.htm

Power Girl has recently been featured in "JSA: Classified #1-4", "Infinite Crisis" and will appear in "JSA #82".  It is interesting to compare the latest interpretations of PeeGee's much-caricatured anatomy:

Amanda Connor's covers for "JSA: Classified":

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/previews/dc/0705/JSAClassifiedCv1A.jpg

http://64.34.172.56/g/albums/Comics/DCComics/December_05/JSAClassifiedCv4.jpg


Adam Hughes alternate covers:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b170/karasfortress/solicits/jsaclassified01b.jpg

http://www.hillcity-comics.com/comics/09_14_05_31.jpg


Jim Lee's "teaser" cover for "Infinite Crisis #2":

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b170/karasfortress/solicits/infinitecrisis02a.jpg

(A new DC Direct "Infinite Crisis" Power Girl figure will be based on Jim Lee's depiction.)


George Perez' artwork for "JSA #82":

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/JSA/JSA82Pre.htm


It is interesting that had Supergirl not perished so early, her muscular development might have more closely resembled her Earth-2 "sister", at least in "Elseworld's Finest:  Supergirl and Batgirl":

http://supergirl.astraldream.net/covers/elseworld1.jpg

Well, the endowment was a little silly in its own right...

What makes me wonder is that individual muscle development to the state seen on the Elseworlds cover, for example, is the result of very specific targeted work (along with steroids in some cases)...do these heros spend 5 hours a day on this work, and what do they use for equipment?  And the artists still exaggerate the effect even more...

Well I think people have forgotten that alot of it has to do with the language of superhero comics and part of that is using glorification fo the human form to convey a sense of power and nobility. Some degree of exaggeration will come along with that. In a way, the body is a part of the costume itself. Helping to inhance it.

Alot of what we see in modern comics is to some degree taking on the Gil Kane school without even realizing it and taking it way too far. I think this is part of where the criticism of superhero costumes as "body paint" or "body condoms" comes from.

But mileage varies on this because I look at Ed McGuiness and it doesn't look that wrong to me since it's kind of inline with his cartoonist approach. But when I look at Bart Sears stuff *that's* what looks steroid driven to my eyes.

Then you have guys like Liefeld where they're just being careless about it. If superheroes is a stylistic language then Liefeld is what it's like when you speak jibberish.