Superman Through the Ages! Forum

I shall just post the link:

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/InfiniteCrisis/INCRCv2.jpg

and walk away ;)

All right!!!

If that means what I think it means, we have E-2 Superman, E-2 Lois, E-Prime Superboy, E-2 Power Girl, and E-3 Luthor jr. back.

But they got E-2 Superman's S-shield wrong, if that is him.

I hope they weren't brought back just to kill them off properly this time.

Well, Lois had enough time to sew up some new costumes and make a few revisions -- considering that Kal-L's uniform was much the worse for wear after Crisis #12, and Superboy-Prime's rental costume was in tatters.   :wink:

It's about time!

Oh man, are they grim n' gritty these characters to? Or give them some  gruesome fate?

I wouldn't put it pass them that they would bring them back just to kill them off, in yet another one of those "haha suckers!" moments DC loves to do so much.

One thing is for sure, I will not be buying any of those issues.

I fear for the worst.

But they suckered us for years with fake GLC return books.  Then, we not only get the GLC back but Hal Jordan as GL too.

We even got Kara Zor-El back as Supergirl, in a fashion.

While we have ample precedent for the worst here, we also have some concrete evidence that sometimes the best comes out instead.

Yeah but how long before Kara gets raped for a cheap sales spike or as somekind of pretenious statement about our "post 911" world? Heck they couldn't even bring Kara back without giving her attitude and having her look up to Wonder Woman instead of Superman.

Remember this is Danny Death DiDio himself in charge of this thing. The man who in his Infinite Wisdom once said that DC Characters were "too likable".

Spoilers for Infinite Crisis #1:

Basically the DCU has gotten screwed up, OMACs are attacking, a bunch of the Freedom Fighters get killed; Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman have serious problems with each other; and mysterious people are watching behind some sort of glassy monitor wall.  These mysterious people can't stand what the DCU have become.  They're Kal-L, Earth-2 Lois, Earth-Prime Superboy, and Earth-3 Alexander Luthor... and the Earth-2 Superman smashes through the glass (or whatever) wall and goes, "THIS looks like a job for SUPERMAN."

Oh, and Earth-2 Superman's chest symbol isn't the one shown on Jim Lee's cover.

I don't know. I'm sorry but I have no faith left in DC Comics whatsoever.

None.

They used it all up a very long time ago.

The time for talk, promises, and year long storylines is over. IF, very big IF, they want to change direction away from the darkfic stuff then show me the proof. Put up or shut up. You can't wave something like this in front of my face while you're still publishing non-heroic, heartless and hateful crap like All Star Batman and Robin.

I'm just waiting for them to have Dr. Light do something heinous to elderly Lois Lane or have Superboy Prime get mutilated by Captain Boomerang or some other second string villan they want to make seem cooler by turning him into a serial killer ,or turn Earth-2 Superman into somekind of parody on his era and it's values.

I'll admit though, the scene with Superman and the others behind the glass by itself is actually pretty cool.


If this whole entire bloated multi-wackado thing is a change in direction away from what they have been doing and into a brighter spirit then that's great but I will believe it when I see it and not one single second sooner. If or until that day comes, DC will not get a penny from me. I already believe a man can fly DC, the real question is do YOU?

LOL.. (Minor rant upon seeing E-2 Superman)

I think what Pisses off most Pre-Crisis Fans is that E-2 Lois refers to E-2 Supes as "Clark" and not "Superman".. (that's so sweet, and sincere)

HAH!

That's always the way it should be

I remember crisis when Kal-L throught Lois was lost in the Anti-monitor's implosion and all of a sudden "Clark" was called and when he turned around it was Lois of Earth-2.. If that had been "Superman" called out, I would have blown my brains out.

"I nearly PUKED to d*th in disgust" when Lois calls Superman "Superman" after the secret was out in "Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow"

That's like my girlfriend reffering to me as "Rugal 3:16" instead of my real name EVEN IF my real personality is more potent in"Rugal 3:16"

S:TAS Kara certainly has an attitude, and a whole lot of people liked it.  It's a question of just what attitude.  And tell me, assuming:

- Supergirl doens't check out Superman with a super-telescope
- Superman doesn't really want Supergirl living with him and Loiis
- Ma and Pa Kent aren't taking on any more Super-boarders

where would this admiration of Superman come from?  Realsitically, the pre-Crisis "hmmm no, leave Kara in an orphanage as a secret" Superman wasn't especially admirable, either.  Obviously, the motivation there was to not change the dynamic of Superman too much, but real family changes should lead to real interpersonal changes and sometimes, it will be messy.  It's not an easy problem, and I liked the Paradise Island idea (if not the execution, necessarily).

I dunno...the idea of the original Superman returning reduced me to drooling fanboy status (instead of jaded cynical comic reader) especially since, in VILLAINS UNITED, there are....

(Not sure of the protocol, so...)

***SPOILERS****






Don't read if you don't want to know....


....There are TWO Lexes, and one, I think, is the Silver Age Earth-1 Lex Luthor. So we got Superman-2 and Lex-1 in the post-Crisis universe.
And it looks like Lex-1, not fatcat billionaire postLex, is the guy behind the Society---which makes sense, since the last time we saw him he was leading the villains in COIE. ---Al

OMG!  You're the Al Schroeder III?!!

Welcome, welcome, welcome!!!

I may not agree with all you've written in your letters and articles but you are a legend to me in superfandom.

And thanks muchly for those spoilers.  What's the source?  How reliable are those spoilers?

VILLAINS UNITED forum on DC Comics.  http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000045850&tstart=0
---which agrees with what other forums are saying.  The identity of the "alternative" Lex is not really nailed down, but consider that Alexi Luthor died and wasn't bald, and the final issue of COIE showed Batman and Jason Todd meeting a bald Luthor in prison on the "merged" earth---and PostLuthor (if I may call him that) only served one day in jail and had hair then---I think it's a decent guess.

Oh, and thanks for the welcome.  Yeah, I'm that Al Schroeder.  Yeah, I've now been married twenty-five years and had three kids, with the former Barb Long who I met through Julie's lettercolumns.

I also have a web page on Wold Newton-type Superman speculation at http://www.novanotes.com/specul.htm where I discuss not the Earth-1/Earth-2 or post-Crisis Superman, but a possible earth-REAL one---who was also Hugo Danner of GLADIATOR.  Guarenteed to outrage EVERYBODY, but enormous fun to do.---Al

Outstanding!

I'm familiar with your site and articles.

The first one I ever read was this one:
http://www.novanotes.com/specul/strong.htm

I look forward to discussing that one with you.  I like what you did with it but I think you didn't go far enough.  You'll see once we get talking.

Also, your "The Theory and Practice of Super-Strength" essay has vanished from the internet.  Would you be so kind as to post the current link?  That derives directly from the closing chapters of Gladiator re: implied durability that must come with super-strength.  I believe that either that article or the original Gladiator novel influenced that Pre Crisis Lord Satanus tale where a non-invulnerable Superman found his body no longer had the durability to lift the Fortress' key.  Ultra Boy should have some degree of invulnerability consistent with whatever level of super-strength he's currently manifesting else he'd rip himself apart.

I think "The Theory and Practice of Super-Strength" died when one of the free web servers died, so it's not up anywhere now, but let me look through my files and see if I can put it up again.

Lately, I've been working more on my own webcomic, in addition to work, my family, etc., so I haven't put out everything I once had on the web.---Al

Hi,

It's all over the net now.  All Earths or something like "we were wrong and are going back to pre-crisis"...  Unfortunately, there's the art that's gone.  I was never someone who knew much about the artists (except for the ten last years or so) but I could tell a nice clean line like Boring or Swan (my two faves of all times) Plastino was also ok but it's like he imitated Boring or something...I dunno...
The cold Krypton with crystals et al works fine for tv (Smallville) and the movies but in comics, the Krypton sa was a lot of fun even if some of it (or most of it) didn't make sense.
For some reason, I was sure that in Superman Returns they would start from scratches and bring us closer to the sa comics which definitaly worked even like I said if some things were quite "bizarre"...
Anyway, I was always against any reboot except the first one which established the parralel universes.  
Then (sorry for any fans) Byrne made $h1t.  Superman was rebooted but all of his foes were back too.  Where was the originality of taking Luthor and simply changing a little of what's around him?  He was still the same person with the same goals.  Except that now, he was more Larry Hagman from Dallas than anything else.  
DC shot itself in the %$& with all that - and all their characters.  Since they'd shot the bullet themselves they simply had to go through with the pain.  They did well too for some things but every cover had to be an event if they wanted to sell.  Make alternative covers, 3d cover, death of a character cover, Superman no more cover, ect...  I know I sound like Bessie the 125 year old horse but I don't know why DC made a change to simply make a change.  If they carried too much history well, have some people extra backtrack what's going on.  It obvious that should anyhow have a file on anyone who's anyone in their comics (database) and have a "comic historian" full time who can follow where everyone's going - and the authors could simply write their story and if it was not possible simply change the villain.  
In essence, Superman never changes.  Superman & Luthor - are David & Goliath, God & Devil, Water & fire, ect...  The idea to convey that Superman changes is wrong.  You can have him in another dimension older but the "real" Superman is 30.  He was 30 when I was 6 and he'll be 30 when I die and I'm 89...
...but, the thing is, bring back Superman to his simplicity and have the words "the end" at the end of a story.

Well, it kind of makes sense that Superman-I wouldn't think much of the current DCU, doesn't it?  Though why he'd even bother to follow the "progress" of the DCU while he's living somewhere much better is beyond me.  Heck, I live in someplace much better than the DCU and I sure don't keep up!

What I know about this Crisis I learn from websites, and that's probably the way I'll keep it.  But it's sure interesting that DC's apparently willing to acknowledge what a hash they've made of continuity, and even the tone of their books, for years now.

As for the "S" shield being a bit off in that illo, Jim Lee never could draw it right so why start now?  Personally I find it a little more disturbing that the 60-something Lois has such sexy legs and shows them off like a hoochie girl.

Jim Lee draws all his women like super-models no matter who they are.

Big New article on the return of Earth-2 Superman here:

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=261f5541049a19adbbcbd3be9b080562&threadid=46268

BTW, here is the pic from the comic:

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/InfiniteCrisis/CapedMan/IC01Last.jpg

I agree, you are totally right there. STAS Kara did have attitude and it was great, but the brand of it being served up in the comics seems much much more blatant and pandering to a Hollywood view of teenage girls. Theres a little of that going on with Kara In-Ze as well but I truly feel in the comics it's coming across much more severe.

As far as her living situation ideally I'd have her be with the Kents but yeah that spot is taken up by Superboy. I think it would have been better to just let him live with the Titans or even better zap him into the Legion or just get rid of him. Conceptually I just think he's a bad idea.

As for your statement on the Silver Age, while I can agree the orphanage thing is questionable. But to my mind the dynamics between the two always indicated a very sweet girl who had alot of admiration for her famous cousin and regradless of the orpahange thing there, I enjoy that.

Involving Batman in her origin and having her stay with the Amazons..it's just too ..outiside, in my view. I guess it's one area where it should be less focused on her and the rest of DC Universe and a bit more on her and Superman at least to start with. It almost seems like they are trying to rush this new Supergirl into the prominece that the orginal Kara had in issue 8 (was it?) of COIE.

The whole "she might be more powerful than Superman" just smacks of overcompensation to me.

Now, as for the Golden Age Supermans appearence please don't get me wrong. I had just as much of a fanboy moment as anyone else when I saw that. Totally wonderful! It cannot help but make you go "hell yeah!" inside.

But this is the same think-tank that gave us Idenitity Crisis and fed us the lie about All-Star being a general audience book only to hand it to Frank Miller allowing him to take Batman to brand new level of Bat-D**kery.

I simply do not trust this company to give us a spark of light without also stabbing us in the back and then calling it "relevence". I don't like to be cynical nor do I think it's a badge of honor. Usually I'd like to think I'm not cynical about most things.

But when it comes to DC Comics, I'm sorry but I'm very cynical at this point. The track record speaks for itself and then theres also the fact that the dark stuff is still selling. So the fans are just as much to blame for this as DC is. Even people who hated Idenity Crisis still paid their own money to buy it, and *then* complain about it. So the machine is still being fed. From where I stand, the cycle seems to be continuing.

And Matrix Supergirl before that.  It's an overused idea, unfortunately.


Kon-El is a con...  couldn't agree more.


The one thing that made that quasi-plausible was the fact that she knew what Superman was about beforehand, owing to the super-telescope.  


Oh, indeed.  Everything involved with Loeb is this big hyperkinetic mess as of late.  I don't think it's Supergirl in particular, if that's any consolation.


Agreed.  I'm quite skeptical, too, overall.  But I was just talking about some finer points of Supergirl.  I like her having more spunk, as long as it's done right.  Good idea.  What's come out thus far is....  ehh.  If they're not going to have her stay with Clark and Lois, and the Kents are "tired", at least have her stay with someone who can deal with a superpowered naive girl.  Paradise Island was a fine idea, IMO.  Execution is another matter.

While I'm excited about the return of the Golden Age Superman to the DCU, I'm not even remotely considering the idea that DC actually plans to reverse direction in their dark, Gothlike temperament in general.

I mean, in Infinite Crisis #1, we have Phantom Lady skewered through the stomach.  It's brutal, it's graphic, and we have all but her intestines spilling out on the ground.  While it's the worst, most graphic horrifying death in the issue, it's by no means the least.

Make no mistake:  the writers and artists currently at DC enjoy writing and drawing this kind of story.  They enjoy wallowing in the muck and mire that is the Goth sensibility.  They believe that life is hollow, meaningless, and inherently painful, and that to believe otherwise is simply to be fooling oneself.  They believe that the only way to be true to yourself is to embrace the horror that is everyday life, wallow in it, immerse yourself in the disgusting filth and revel in the grand meaninglessness and destruction.

How do I know that's what they believe?  I used to be one of them, long ago and far away.  And the reason I left was in part precisely because the whole attitude disgusted me.

But that's what they love, and sadly over time, that's what the readership has come to expect.

I don't see them actually turning things around until they've succeeded in alienating every last reader to the point where no one is buying comics any more.

Certainly they've already succeeded in alienating the very audience that has traditionally been comics' biggest market:  pre-teen boys.  I've already earmarked Infinite Crisis as something my 10- and 12-year-old daughters shouldn't read.  I'm afraid that the horror may bleed over into the current Supergirl title in short order, which is unfortunate, since my 10-year-old likes the title.

Will the return of the Golden Age Superman mark the return of a kinder, gentler DCU?  Given the horrific death of Phantom Lady in the very same issue, I doubt it.

Dakota Smith

With that, welcome to the board Dakota Smith, we tend not to be the gloom and doom types for the most part around here :)

Check out the rest of this site to see what I mean. Enjoy your stay.

Also, welcome Al Schroeder, I hope you stick around and have fun as well.


Just remember It's Superman, it is suppose to be fun and if anyone ever tells you different, than they don't know Superman like we know Superman, or at least the real Superman.

Thanks muchly for the welcome.  I'm a huge fan of the site in general, having read the online comics for ... well, I guess about since they started going up.  You'll find that at other sites where I'm generally more active (http://www.trekbbs, for example), I push this site as a resource for Superman -- back when he really was the Man of Tomorrow.

I'm also a huge Elliot S! Maggin fan, and a believer that he's quite possibly the only human being on the planet who really understands Superman and his supporting cast.

As to my introductory post on this BBS ...

Well, I'm a lifelong Superman fan, and I've watched this depressing descent into the horrific for a long, long time, now.  I most assuredly do not agree with it, but the universe is what it is, not what we want it to be.  And the DCU as it presently stands is what it is:  it definitely isn't what I want it to be.

I'm thrilled to see the real Man Of Steel return.  I hope/pray/cross my fingers that they don't manage to mess him up.  If they do, well, I guess there's always Superman Through the Ages for the real thing.

Dakota Smith

I still find it confusing and sort of sad, I guess.  I still can't understand how embracing and even wallowing in the horror that is everyday life --a sort of gleeful nihilism-- translates into going out of your way to write comic book stories in which funny little characters from the 1940s are tortured and murdered, told with ugly, amateurish drawings, no less.  There is embracing horror and then there is actively creating horror.  I'm as atheistic and cynical as they come (I like to think), but the whole exercise seems kind of pointless.  More than anything it seems juvenile and very misogynist.  Popular culture, including underground and minicomics, has been doing it longer and with greater artistic success.

Well, see, they start from the wrong place right at first principles:  everyday life is not horrific.

Are there parts of everyday life that are horrific?  Absolutely.  All you have to do to observe this is just look at Hurricane Katrina.

But are there parts of everyday life that are joyful?  Absolutely!  And all one needs to do to observe this is look at Hurricane Katrina.

The difference is your perspective.  The perspective of pop-culture -- and the subset of pop-culture that is comic books -- is simply wrong in the first place.



Interestingly enough, I really did have a conversation with a Goth girl recently -- something I rarely do because it's so utterly futile.  She was aroun 19, I'm 40.  She truly believes that deep in every human's soul, they are sadistic and altogether willing to gleefully rape, maim, and kill if only society's rules and governments laws didn't prevent them.

As I say, talking with her was a pointless exercise in futility that ultimately boiled down to me finally having to say, "Little girl, anyone can wallow in their own pain.  There's no trick to that at all. If you sit there wallowing in pain and filth, then all you're going to end up with in life is a lot of pain and messiness.  There's more out there -- if you want it."

Again, a waste of time, but it needed to be said.

Dakota Smith

If it needed to be said, then it wasn't a waste of time.

:s:

Superboy Prime is back.

THANK YOU, DC!!!

Last year, a wonderful tribute in SECRET IDENTITY. Now, the return of the original one.
Thank you again.

Or most current DC comics.

I find that Goth girls and the so-called Goth subculture in general hold many conflicting opinions and are by no means of one mind when it comes to philosophy.  As a teen, I knew many clean-cut, chess-club types who held opinions similar to your Goth girl --you just never can tell.

More on the coming apocalypse:

Oh please. From that DiDio demonstrates little more than being Bill Jemas 2.0. They truck out the same cliched crap everytime people call them on how needlessly bleak they're making things. Same freakin song every time. Oh the audience is too "sophisticated" or the older readers are just "scared" and "afraid of change". They always make it seem like a choice between too extremes, it's either darkness which is apparently sophisticated just because, and the Silver Age.

What they really mean is that stories with a sense of adventure and wonder with heroes good and true who triumph and save the day are just too hard to write. They don't have the talent or the guts for it unless its a special project on the side like New Frontier and they'll show the love by not promoting it. It's easier to go for the cheap heat. Have your character deathlist handy and say "sales are down, who's getting killed and/or raped today?" and throw your dart. Done and done. Let's face it, stuff like Identity Crisis is just saying "Hey we can be Watchmen too and we'll do it to the icons! Oh god we're so edgy we cut ourselves!"

I think not only would a change in tone be a welcome one but at this point it'd be the most radical thing they could possibly do. You wanna shake things up, then show me a DC Universe that isn't just a constant suckfest!

Yet again, someone important at DC is demonstrating that they simply haven't the slightest inkling of the tiniest clue.

Is the comics readership more sophisticated now than half a century ago?  Yes.  But why is that?

Changes in culture or society?  No -- if you look at other areas of entertainment, you find extremely successful individuals and styles which do not resort to darkness and "edginess" to do what they do.

If you examine the programming on Nickelodeon, Disney Channel, and Cartoon Network, you find some surprisingly good fare that is no way dark and edgy.

What the entire super-hero comics industry -- and DC in particular -- has really blown it on is this:

Super-hero comics published by DC were never intended for adults.  They were intended for pre-teen boys, plain and simple.  Everything about them, from the nerd who takes off his glasses to become Superman to the beautiful girl who never looks twice at the nerd but pines for the strong guy is aimed directly at children.

The entire concept of the super-hero was never intended to be an adult medium.  If you really try and take the super-hero concept seriously as an adult form of entertainment, it totally breaks down.

Firstly, imagine that a rocket from another planet were to appear in the skies over Kansas today, when virtually the entire airspace of the country is covered by a web of radar tracking.  It would be picked up as soon as it was detected and quite possibly blown out of the sky for security reasons.  Failing that, wherever it landed would be cordoned off by government troops and the entire thing taken into government custody, rocket and its contents and all.  No kindly couple of "passing motorists" like the Kents would ever have a chance to see it, and if they did, they'd be told it was a matter of national security and at the very least sworn to secrecy.

The infant in the rocket?  Well, if he was super-powered from the get-go, he would ultimately become uncontrollable.  The geo-political implications of an uncontrollable super-being roaming the Earth are so obvious that the government would have no choice but to destroy the infant at all costs.  Assuming it was possible, baby Kal-El wouldn't survive long enough to grow to adulthood.

But assuming it were impossible to destroy him by any conventional means, you'd have a super-powered infant buzzing around the world.  As a father of two daughters, I cannot imagine being in any way capable of tempering the anti-social outbursts of a super-powered infant.  He starts playing around with punching holes in the wall just to watch the drywall crumble in the funny way that it does, and what can I do to stop him?  Spank him?

I could go on, but you see how quickly the concept of the super-hero breaks down the moment you apply any level of realism to it?  And trust me, it only gets worse with someone like the Batman.  An adult who dresses up like a giant bat at night and beats up on criminals is obviously crazy, and Commissioner Gordon would stop at nothing until the nutbar is safely locked away.  He wouldn't be tolerated -- ever -- and any police commissioner who did would correctly be canned in ten minutes.

DC's real problem is that they're attempting to apply modern adult sensibilities to something that is children's material.  In so doing, they're failing miserably, both artistically and ultimately commercially.

If they want to really succeed, they need to look no further than the Warners animated DC series.  In all three -- Batman, Superman, and Justice League Unlimited -- Warners has brilliantly succeeded in every way that DC comics has failed miserably.

The Warners animated shows are aimed at the correct audience.  And unlike the occasionally silly Golden and Silver Age, which was also aimed at the correct audience in their time, the Warners plots are well thought-out and reasonably sophisticated.  There is just enough "adult" pathos in them to make the cartoon watchable for an adult, yet the appropriate level of outright action to make them accessible to a younger audience.

In short, my 10- and 12-year-old daughters and I can sit and watch them together and both enjoy the hell out of them.

Frankly, when I see Superman on JLU, I'm seeing Superman the way he should be.  He's the Superman I remember from my youth, and the Superman found in the online comics of this site.  That other guy, the one in the comics now, is a total imposter.

DC needs to take care of this.  They need to be targeting the intended audience of the super-hero genre, the child, rather than a bunch of adults who demand that their childhood heros grow up with them.

Dakota Smith

Well, I just mean that it was pointless in terms of convincing her that her perspective was extremely narrow.  And what really amazes me is that the whole Goth sensibility is generally displayed by people who have absolutely no real experience with hardship.  I mean seriously, some middle-class suburban white girl is buying into the idea that life is inherently meaningless and grotesque?

Dakota Smith

Glad to be here.---Al

But you see, that's what it means to be a teenager.  Any teenager.  Life stinks, and it'll just get worse.  It's not until people grow out of their teens that they get past this.

As adults, it's our responsibility to show them that there are other ways.  We have no control over whether they choose to acknowledge this or not, but when we say or show it, our duty has been done.  That way, when those teens get older, the seeds of truth will have been planted and they will be able to grow.  So when you said what you did, you weren't wasting time, you were investing in the truth and in her future.

That's what Mort Weisinger knew (http://superman.nu/a/Creators/weisinger.php), and that's what the current folks at DC don't know at all - because none of them ever grew out of their teens.  They're all just angry kids who think they're really cool.

:s:

Couldn't have said it better myself.  They're frakking teenagers who never grew up.  They think it's cool to diss the past, and indeed actively work to destroy it rather than create something new and interesting of their own.

Actually, my worst fear is that they only reason they've brought the Golden Age Superman back is to kill him once and for all.

Dakota Smith

If Jenette Kahn and Mike Carlin couldn't do it, no one can.  Besides, no comic book character ever stays dead for long. :wink:

:s:

Well, Jor-El, Lara, Barry Allen, Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, and Thunderbird seem to be amongst the truly dead at DC and Marvel.

I really enjoyed this issue. It reminded me of the original Crisis with so many things happening at once.

I actually thought that Batman was justified in his passive-aggressiveness this time. He's completely right about Superman relating "too much" to humans instead of inspiring them. He probably could've said it in a better way--without the death crack--but that's Batman for you. Hopefully we'll get an improved Batman after the Crisis.

I'm wondering how Mongul ties into all this. I'm glad he's being presented as a threat again (instead of the Cyborg Superman's lapdog), but how did he come back from the dead? It does appear to be the original Mongul, rather than his son.

I'm guessing the OMACs will be the equivalent of the Shadow-Demons from the original Crisis, and I see no problems with that. They're visually cool and make for credible opponents. Their powers do sometimes seem to be inconsistent, though.

What more can be said about the ending? We've all heard the rumors and speculated about this, but seeing it was something special. What better time for the ORIGINAL Superman to return than a time of universal chaos? I'm guessing the Earth-Prime Superboy will snap Kon-El out of his depression and get him to start acting like a hero again.

Even the pre-Crisis stories goofed a little here, with that one story where Jor-El and Lara are alive in suspended animation in some kind of rocket.  A recording of Jor-El tells Superboy that they can't be resuscitated or else they die of Kryptonite poisoning, so he lets their still-alive bodies float off into space.  Brilliant...

Barry Allen is my FLASH and he's always alive to me.

And besides didnt Gwen Stacy get resurrected as Mary Jane in the Spidey film and get saved this time?????????? :roll:

I've got a question.  There's all this talk about the E2 Superman and Eprime Superboy coming back in IC #1.  I haven't been to my comic shop yet this week (in fact, I haven't been in about 3 or 4 months).  Did they only come back for that last page which someone posted earlier in the thread, where Supes says, "This is a job for Superman" and no more?  So we actually have to wait for the next issue to see what they're like?  Or have they had some real panel time?

:s:

They're seen observing the action in IC1, though you don't know it's them until the very end.  In fact, the narrator of the story appears to be the Golden Age Superman himself.

Dakota Smith

I'd like to see the writers that Heroic Publishing(www.heroicpub.com) has take a crack at Superman.    They have a sense of fun.

This cover proves it:
http://www.heroicpub.com/flare/graphics/preview33/pagecover.jpg

All that is suppose to occur in that issue

The only real 'problem' with the titles is the heavy Greek art element in a few of the stories, especially when Olympus or Dark Malice  is brought into the mix.  IOW nudity.  However, if I'm forced to choose.  I'll take the Greek's glorification of the human body over the decadent violence in the Iron Age of comics any day.


As to Infinte Crisis.  I'm going to read IC, but I am firmly confident in Didio.  He has a hatred for anything that is happy.  The E-2 Superman, Alex Luthor, the E-Prime Superboy, and the E-2 Lois Lane has to be very grating for him.  It was a happy ending for them.  The only thing left is for him to grab the E-2 Steve Trevor and Wonder Woman off of Olympus and kill them as well.

Didio not only wants to make the current DCU darker, but he's trying to force the darkness back into the Silver/Bronze Age.  The Silver Age characters didn't bother hiding the mind wipes.  They were very blatant about it.

The best example comes from Challenge of the Superfriends.  Superman grabbed Lex Luthor's mind control ray and turned it on the Legion of Doom (That's a fine idea Lex.  Why don't I use it?)

Man, going across other forums and seeing the response to this thing is just somewhere between disgusting and just heartbreaking.

People are practically cackling with supervillan levels of selfish glee over that line Batman had about how Superman hadn't inspired anybody since he was dead. It's not even that they are enjoying the line in the context of the story their just doing the happy dance because The Dark Jerkwad version of Batman zinged the nice guy hero that apprently everybody loves to hate.

Not that everybody hates Superman but one can't help but just be taken aback by the sheer level of bile that seems to have been reserved for him. It's not even specific to the problems the Post-Crisis version or at least these folks don't specify that. I mean if you like Batman better that's one thing but is it so hard to accept that both heroes can be cool in their own ways? Or heck, even that they are both heroes and would work together and even (gasp!) be freinds?

No, it's that so many people hate the whiny crappy Post-Crisis version, go back to those forums and see the very same fans are all so happy to see Earth-2 Superman break out at the end.

There is a secret about what will be the big DC Universe changing event to come out of this.

That is that one of DC major heroes will die and be replaced.

Now, note that they keep introducing alternate versions of all the top heroes to keep you guessing.

Then again, it could be just blue beetle ;)

It's not just the Batman fans.  This site here is a perfect example of  why some of the glee exists.

http://superman.nu/a/comics.php

http://superman.nu/a/History/iron.php

It is not Superman they hate.  It is the person that currently holds the title.

Agreed. Even though Batman sounded like a jerk, he was actually quite accurate. Superman has wasted too much time trying to "relate" to humans instead of inspiring them.

Is the Superman logo used in the final pages of the first issue (reprinted in the other locked thread) one that has been used before?

I ask because it is identical to the logo of the Shuster Awards, designed by Dave Sim, and reportedly based on an unused early "S" shield design by Shuster.  Anyone know?

http://shusterawards.com/story.asp?storyID=36

You know, if I had my way and we were to break off another "Earth-Dakota" universe a la this thread (http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1910) ...

In our new Earth-Dakota universe, Infinite Crisis would end with the current Superman sacrificing his life to save the original Superman.  In fact, Kal-El, Kon-El and the current Lois would all be literally replaced by Kal-L, Superboy-Prime, and Lois Kent.  I'd probably throw in some way that Lois and Kal-L were rejuvinated to the approximate ages of 30 each.

I think it would be very interesting indeed to permanently bring back Kal-L.  It wouldn't be a huge stretch, either:  both Kal-L and Kal-El are reporters in their Clark Kent identities (or at least Kal-L was before he became Managing Editor of the Daily Star), as was Lois Kent.  And as for the Earth-Prime Superboy, he never actually had an identity separate from Earth-Prime anyway, so his story could essentially be a blank slate.

But I can imagine Kal-L and Lois' reactions to the world of the 21st century, and I think it would add a fascinating level of introspection for them to have to deal with modern problems from their perspectives of a far simpler time.

Further, can one imagine Kal-L coming face-to-face with his counterparts' parents?  People significantly younger than he chronologically, but used to being "Superman's parents"?

I also can't imagine Kal-L tossing Superboy-Prime more or less aside the way Kal-El has done with both Kon-El and Kara Zor-El -- particularly considering they've been inhabiting some kind of hypertime limbo for the last twenty years.  Instead, I can imagine Superboy-Prime actually being raised by the Kents.

Though again, it's an interesting problem, considering that chronologically, Superboy-Prime is actually in his 30s despite still looking like a teen-ager ...

I don't think for a picosecond that DC will actually do this.  I think it far more likely that Kal-L will somehow "inspire" Kal-El to be the Superman Kal-L was and then be killed.  But in the universe of Earth-Dakota ... <shrug>

Dakota Smith

One need look no further than here (http://superman.nu/tales2/thesuperman/) for the answer.  :)

Though I actually think it would have been cooler to use the logo seen here (http://superman.nu/tales2/action1/?page=1) ...

Dakota Smith

I don't think that logo ever saw print before the 1990's Bogdanove story (http://superman.nu/tales2/thesuperman/), which would mean this (IC#1) is the second time DC has used it, and the first time they've used it specifically for the Earth-2 Superman.

But yes, it was originally designed by Shuster - just look here (http://superman.nu/tales2/thesuperman/cover.php).

I have my own preference for just what the best Golden Age "Superman" logo is (it's neither of the two that Dakota links to), but you'll have to wait for the next big Superman Through The Ages! project to be announced if you want to find out what it is. And when I say big - I mean big! :lol:

As far as the actual story in IC#1 is concerned - I just bought the issue today.  My review:  Well, the last two pages were pretty good.

:s:

I'm very happy with this development.  Should be interesting to see where it goes.

It was quite a surprise to see Superman return in the pages of Infinite Crisis after almost twenty years since crisis and 6 years since Kingdom.  Should be one heck of a ride.

Well, we have to keep in mind that this is Crisis. DC seems to be moving in the "Age of Apocalypse" direction, where after this is over, the JLA and others will be hunted like mutants.

Nevertheless, you could tell in the other locked thread that I was very excited after reading it.  :D  It was somehow very satisfying to see Batman deride the current Superman for not being inspiring, and seeing Kal-L basically say "Idiots!" and burst through the time barrier... a kind of affirmation of what we've been saying all along. Byrne's Superman isn't a Superman, and his Luthor isn't Luthor.

But, being an adult-oriented sequel to Crisis, there are gratuitious deaths. The Iron Age JLA is being killed off (doesn't bother me much, except Blue Beetle) but we've also lost Shayera and the wizard Shazam.  :evil:  It is entirely possible that Kal-L could die in the next issue, just to teach the current Superman how to be a real hero, or some similar crap. I mean, if the wizard Shazam isn't respected enough to be off-limits, who is?

The art from this issue was stunning...the covers were awesome, and the image of Spectre ransacking Gotham with the Bat-signal emblazoned across his chest was powerful. We'll wait and see...I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I will say it again, don't get sucked in thinking that DC somehow finally will get it considering who is writing this thing.

At this point I would be more shocked if those pre-crisis characters do not die when it's all said than done.

I wouldn't be surprise to see DC get even darker after this series is over.

From the looks of it, they want to make the Iron Age look tame, just look at that 1st issue, they might think that the Iron Age wasn't dark enough and now they want to go even darker.

Let's face it, that is more likely than a return to greatness.

I'm going to have to trust Waid on this matter. He has many on the top writers at DC supporting him and that gives me hope. As for the Iron Age, I see it more as being "dark for the sake of being dark' rather than dark stories with an actual meaning behind them, and there seems to be a clear meaning behind this series. To me the theme is that the post-Crisis heroes have failed. Superman has become too wishy-washy and depressed. Batman has become meta-phobic and has alienated all his friends and allies with his paranoid behavior. Wonder Woman is slowly sliding into the "ends justify the means" mindset. The question is this: "Who saves the heroes?" Who else? Those past heroes that sacrificed the most to give the world to the current heroes. These heroes gave them Heaven, and they turned it into Hell--now they're going to take it back. That's what Infinite Crisis is about in my view.

There isn't going to be a return to the Silver Age, though (not in the way it used to be, anyway). That ship has sailed--it's VERY difficult to regain innocence once it's lost. That being said, I'd prefer it if DC washed away the Iron Age and started a new, wholly original age. Something in the spirit of the Gold, Silver, and Bronze Age, but written for the comic fans of today. An Age that has the loose restrictions of today but also has the responsibility to use that freedom wisely. An Age where death in comics is treated seriously, and not just used for shock value. An Age where new concepts and ideas are explored with the various characters in the DCU.

Besides, in the end, Superman ALWAYS saves the day.  :)

I'm unclear why anyone at DC should presently be trusted.  Their track record for a long time now is to clearly take our heros in entirely the wrong direction.  Why would there be a sudden mindshift away from gleeful nihilism now?

I'm a firm believer in predicting the future based on what you've observed in the past.  What we've observed in the past is gleeful nihilism.  Identity Crisis, All-Star Batman and Robin, even the first issue of Infinite Crisis were all opportunities to demonstrate that the trend of gleeful nihilism was being reversed.  Yet, what did each of these do?  Revel in gleeful nihilism.

Why should issues 2-7 of Infinite Crisis be any different than issue 1?  Just because we want to ignore the gleeful nihilism present in every panel except the last one?

I mean, let's be real:  with the exception of the very last page, the entire rest of the issue is nothing but total blackness.  It's impotence, paranoia, rage, and violent death on damned near every page.

And it was engineered that way.  Why would the engineers change course so dramatically now?



As I say, gleeful nihilism.  ;)



It's far too early to pinpoint a theme for the series.  The fact that they'll show Phantom Lady being skewered to death in a graphic fashion that even I found disturbing is evidence enough that they've no plan to stop this sort of insanity any time soon.



And who is to blame for this?  The very same creative teams now responsible for supposedly getting us out of this mess!

So after selling gajillions of issues of Identity Crisis and successfully transforming the DCU into a place where almost showing Phantom Lady's guts spilling out on the floor is considered "artistic", we're supposed to believe they've suddenly learned their lesson and that these very same people are going to reverse course?

Frankly, I doubt it.  It goes against all past evidence of the kind of work they enjoy doing.  I.e., gleeful nihilism.



I remind you of these quotes from Dido and Rucka:

"I think people feel it's dark because it's so compelling," Mr. DiDio said. "They don't know how our heroes are going to get out of the danger."

Mr. Rucka agreed: "When they're saying 'it's too dark,' they're saying, 'I'm scared.' "

Nope.  They've missed it entirely.  Darkness is not the same thing as compelling.  Darkness is skewering Phantom Lady in an utterly gratuitous fashion for no reason other than shock value.  It doesn't scare me, it disgusts me.  There's a huge difference.

But Dido, Rucka, Johns, Jiminez, Cox, Major, Napolitano, Schaefer, and Berganza don't understand the difference.  They can't fathom that there is a difference between fright and disgust.  That can't comprehend the notion that maybe -- just maybe -- it's just gleefully nihilistic to show people getting skewered and coughing up blood in their final breaths.

These people like the Hell they've created.  They think it's artistic, compelling, and deeply meaningful simply because they can successfully portray people getting skewered and coughing up blood in their final breaths.

Why would they reverse course and go toward something with taste and truly compelling drama when they have such an attachment to the horrific?



I don't think anyone actually wants a return to the Silver or Golden Ages at this point.  We just want our heros to act like heros and our artists to stop with the gleeful nihilism.



The DCU is what they'll make it, now what we want them to make it.  And they like gleeful nihilism, so that's what it will be.



Mark my words:  he's going to end up dead at the end of this series.  And it will be written in such a way as to convey the moral, "The world has changed.  It's dark and depressing now.  The heros of the past have no place in the modern world.  If they try to live here, it will kill them."

Dakota Smith

Dakota, I've got to respectfully disagree with your viewpoint here. I feel your pain though; I've had the carrot of fun adventure comics dangled before me before, only to have it yanked away at the last second when Awesome Comics went under and Supreme was cancelled. I've watched DC Comics over the past year, skimmed the titles, but never really bought anything beyond trades of prior material.

 DC Comics is a business, and any form of art that is run at the top by businessmen is going to have stunted potential. The past year has seen shock tactics for their own sake and gimmick celebrity writers gleefully indulging in deconstructionist crap, but I say hold the course. You send a message to DC with your spending practices. I think that's why Waid said what he did; I think the suits are catching on. Identity Crisis sold well, but at what price? I think DC is coming to the realization that if you keep telling these godawful, depressing stories over and over you're going to alienate your fan base. Yeah, you can appeal to that demographic, but it's not going to show results across the board.

 Morality plays for children? Yes, that's a valid arguement but the sad fact of the matter is that kids don't comicbooks. Why relate to their parents' old stuff when they've got Harry Potter, Lemony Snickett, and Yu-gi-oh? The graying of the audience has set in with this medium, and unfortunately catering has to be made to the tastes of those with the disposable income to spare. And if their tastes run more toward retreads of The Authority than Justice League of America, c'est la vie.

 That aside, I am oddly hopeful. I've been reading Grant Morrison's stuff on Seven Soldiers, and he gets it. He gets that comics have grown up and matured with their audience, and that you can tell a story that doesn't talk down to anyone and has dark moments but is ultimately a fantasy, an entertainment, an -enjoyable- experience. The fact that they're planning to give him the keys to the kingdom when IC winds down gives me a good feeling. That last page did make my heart soar, made me feel like a kid again reading Action Comics on a Saturday afternoon.

 We want to love again, we really really do. But we've been burned before. Again, I say hold the course. Continue buying the comics you want to read and DC (or more accurately the suits at Time Warner) will get the idea.

 To put it another way; in the contemporary DCU I don't know if I believe a man can fly anymore.

 But I do believe in a man who can leap tall buildings in a single bound. And he's back. Yesss. . .  :D

 -Def.

Hey, I can deal with thoughtful, respectful criticism.  I even have some comments of my own ... ;)



I entirely agree ... more on which in a moment.  :)



Yes, but why is that?

First and foremost, it's because DC isn't marketing to children any more.

My daughters love Justice League on TV, and they're precisely the same market buying Yu-Gi-Oh! and Pokemon memorabilia.  I know this because I've watched my daughters begging for this stuff right and left four three or four years.

And make no mistake, they love Justice League and Justice League Unlimited.  It's one of those shows that all three of us consistently sit down and enjoy, for totally different reasons.

And as a program, I've discovered in the last few months that Justice League has a significant advantage over Yu-Gi-Oh! and Pokemon:

My older daughter, who is 12, has loved Pokemon, in much the same way that I loved Star Trek at her age.  She used to rave incessantly about the trivia and minutia associated with it.  I discovered to my shock that I must now know how my parents felt raising me, listening to me go on and on about something they didn't really understand, but knowing that it was taking up a significant amount of my spare time and gray matter.

For a while, my daughter moderated forums on a Pokemon fan web site and even had a Pokemon-based domain name of her very own with a Web site she maintained.  At her urging, I drove her and her sister to Mall of America in Minneapolis (about a four-hour drive) for what amounts to a Pokemon mini-convention.

Yet in the last year, she's grown enough intellectually to understand that the Pokemon series is rather lame.  It's the same stories re-tread every week, more or less, and aside from any new Pokemon she may see, it's kind of the same thing, over and over.

Justice League doesn't have this problem.  Its stories are just sophisticated enough and well-written that it's not the same crap every week with different character names.  Justice League can continue to capture her imagination every week where Pokemon can't.

Similarly, my younger daughter likes Supergirl.  It's the first and only title she's asked me to get for her, and fortunately (so far) the gleeful nihilism at DC hasn't extended to the new Supergirl title.  I am a bit apprehensive about presenting her with comics that glorify the Mary-Kate Olsen anorexia figure wrapped in modern slutwear, but the fact is that it's no different than what she sees at the mall every day, unfortunately.

But particularly in the case of Justice League, you have to ask yourself, what are they doing differently at Warners Animation that they're not doing at DC?  My daughters have no interest in the comic book version of the League, after all.

What are they doing differently?  It's simple:  the TV series is marketing to children.

If comics actually wants to regain its former glory, it needs to do one very simple thing: market to children again.

First and foremost, it has to abandon the "comics store only" mentality.  When I was a child, comics could be found on the rack of every store I walked into, from K-Mart to the local gas station -- the same as the Yu-Gi-Oh! and Pokemon cards of today.  They were in the ubiquitous rotating racks near the front of the store where children could beg their parents for an impulse-buy on the way in or out.

DC needs to go back to this model and get comic racks into stores again.

Secondly, comics were once affordable.  My kids get a five-dollar-a-week allowance, so buying even one title today represents a significant investment.  Fortunately for them, I'm a soft touch when it comes to comics, and I'll buy them almost anything they ask for, provided the content isn't too horrific (which of course means they can't see titles like, oh, everything DC publishes with a couple of exceptions).  However, even I can't afford to invest much in comics these days.  The damned things are just too expensive.

How do you make comics cheaper?  I can think of a couple of ways, but first and foremost, you get rid of the slick covers, high-quality paper, and vast array of colors.  You return to publishing standards of a quarter-century ago.  Yes, this means artists will have to re-learn how to deal with fewer colors, but such is life.  Do you want to be selling a few books to fanboys in comics stores or millions to kids on rotating racks in grocery stores?

And finally there's content.  This is the real deal-breaker.  Content.

Much as I'd like my kids to see the return of the Golden Age Superman, I can't allow it.  The entire rest of the issue is totally inappropriate for them.  If I found Phantom Lady's death disturbing, it's potentially the stuff of nightmares for a child.

What kind of content do children want and need?  Again, we need look no further than the Warners animated series:

Adventure told with enough adult sensibility to be consistently interesting, yet without all the darkness and horrific content.  Generally entertaining, optimisitic, bright adventures stories without all the gleeful nihilism.

Basically, DC needs to abandon everything it's been doing and actually market comics to children instead of aging adult fanboys.  If they actually marketed to children the way Yu-Gi-Oh! and Pokemon do (without the inherent stupidity that ultimately dooms those shows once you've gone beyond a limited age range), then DC will return to its former glory.  As long as it insists on writing only for fanboys, it's doomed.



What I'm concerned with is this:

If the suits can't understand the necessity for marketing to children as I've described above, then they're stuck with marketing to fanboys.  And what did the fanboys buy more than anything else?  Identity Crisis.

If you're concerned with the bottom-line numbers, you have to naturally say to yourself, "Hey, that Identity Crisis thing sold like mad.  Why aren't we doing more like that?"

And what was Identity Crisis all about?  Gleeful nihilism for its own sake.

If DC actually has in mind a turn away from the gleeful nihilism, no one will be happier than I.  However, given the fact that they've made precisely no effort to market to children by taking none of the steps I've outlined above, they display that they simply don't get why they're only enjoying a shadow of their former glory.

As I say, I like making predictions for the future based on past performance.  They're not making changes in the distribution channel that would alienate the comics specialty stores, which would be the first step in doing the right thing. They're not making arrangements to downgrade their paper to something that will reduce costs.  They're not telling their artists, "Learn to work with four colors, 'cause that's what you're going to have."  They're not telling their writers, "Cut all the crap and write to a younger audience."

All they've done is had one panel of a super-hero who continues to appeal to the older fanboy.

My prediction is more of the same or a variation of more of the same.

Dakota Smith

I honestly have no problem whatsoever with fictional characters being results-oriented or non-heroic. I'm a giant fan of Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat, Golgo 13, Reservoir Dogs, and the Saint, and can I enjoy jewel thief movies simply because they show such cleverness that I really hope they do get away with it.

In the words of Jim Shooter, (paraphrased) "comics do not exist to give us role models; they are meant to provide enjoyment. It is the duty of parents, educators and religious leaders to give us role models."

(That said, I find Superman one of my greatest life role models apart from my Father and older cousin.)

Dakota Smith -

We as readers adore the contrariness and weird individualism of the Addams Family, and boo and hiss their perky, meddlesome white-bread neighbors that urge them to attend PTA bake sales. Pointless perkiness is every bit as annoying and creatively empty as pointless nihilism; saying it's all about pointless nihilism being made as a creative decision is ignoring what is fundamentally wrong with comics:

TALENT determines success or failure, not the presence or absence of darkness. Saying the DC Universe is darker is ignoring the fundamental problem: whether because business models exclude innovation, or the people in charge are unaware of what they are doing, or whatever it might be, comics right now have very few truly talented writers.

Saying that the superheroes were products of a different age is annoying to me because 1) it's far too convenient an explanation for the difference between comics then and now,  2) contrary to popular belief, the past was just as cynical as today. Anyone that believes that respect for elected officials has been lost ought to read a few of the works by Adlai Stevenson's men about Vice-President Nixon.

Superheroes were not the product of a different age; they were the product of a different MENTALITY.

What does that mean? Stories can be successful or unsuccessful for different reasons. Things can work or not work depending on the type of story they are intending to tell. Fairy tales use simplified characterization: we don't know much about Cinderella's personality except a basic description like "kindly" and the fact that she has an objective that she's after: going to the ball, namely. If such simplified characterization were found in modern contemporary fiction, we'd be outraged, because you read modern fiction to read about complicated, interesting people. For this reason, many fans of Kung Fu movies absolutely loathe CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON, because one goes to see Kung Fu flicks for brilliant choreography and action, not artificial wires, long awkward lulls, and pretty but boring cinematography.

What does this mean for superhero comics? Superhero comics work because they operate with incredible fantasy elements, and a sort of crazy anything-goes energy that's a cross between Errol Flynn and an acid trip. Because this idiom is what WORKS about superhero comics, "grounding" them is rather pointless (the only one I can think of that works off the top of my head is is MIRACLEMAN, and that is because it looked at superheroes as a science fiction element to explore instead of as an adventure story).

Darkness in superhero comics isn't a poor creative decision because darkness for darkness's sake is bad. It is a poor choice because that's not the type of story that superheroes are about. I agree wholeheartedly, Dakota Smith, with your point that the things that make superheroes work are inherently for children, which is why every work that ignores that has not been very interesting.

They killed off Phantom Lady, eh? Well, there's another notch in the belt of the trend of comic book violence against women. That act worries me just as much as the return of Golden Age Superman excites me, and it worries me just as much that such a hideous act, part of a disturbing trend, has remained only in the background of discussion of the minseries when it OUGHT to be at the forefront. Don't quote me on this, but I fully expect Phantom Lady to remain dead; if comics history has anything to say about it, resurrection is a male only option. Violence against female characters is one of the cheesiest, ugly (and some would say, defining) characteristics of the modern age of comics, and to see it in force in INFINITE CRISIS shows they're just shoving the same Modern Age crap down our throats.

Dakota Smith, I do agree with you on the gleeful nihlhism.  

I went back to an old issue of League of Champions where Eos was stabbed in the same area that Phantom Lady was.  It was not as graphic as what happened  to Phantom Lady.  BTW Eos came back and merged once more with her mortal avatar: Flare.

Here's a hint of what Flare is like:
http://www.superdickery.com/other/281.html

At any rate, the Hero Publishing characters used to be labeled mature, but now they are very mild compared to what goes on in Marvel and DC.

I would like to recommend Flare for your child to read, but I can't.  Flare is the mortal reincarnation of a Greek diety.  Would you allow your children to read all of Greek myth(Heracles sleeping with his male friend or Zeus and his many lovers) or look at all of Greek art(celebration of the human body)?  Other than a lot of the Greek art element, it would be allowable for your child to read it.

As to the $2.99 price tag?  well, it is an indy comic and doesn't have ads to lower the price.

That's what really bugs me about DC and Marvel.  They have ads that can lower the price and yet their prices are the same as an indy comic or in a few cases more and they have less story pages in the book.

I did notice that Gail Simone didn't work on Infinite Crisis.  She's the person who started the Women in Refrigirators website.

I do think that Infinte Crisis is going to kill off Superman of Earth-2 and the Superboy of Earth Prime.  It was a happy ending.

Well a brief point of order:

I actually believe that darkness works to a certain extent with certain characters.  The Batman, for example, was always intended to be a dark creature of the night.  It's right there in his original origin pages:  he wanted a persona that would strike fear in the hearts of criminals.

What doesn't work with the Batman is to turn him into a raving, antisocial paranoid, which is what he's become.

Or, to put it the best way I've ever seen, there was a brilliant line from New Frontier, when Superman was commenting about the Batman's change in costume to a less-fearful look (and I paraphrase, here):

"I put on this costume to frighten criminals, not to scare children."

This is, I think, the single most brilliant line to come out of superhero comics in years.  Small wonder that it was relegated to an Elseworlds.



With this I whole-heartedly agree.  I continue to believe that quite possibly the only writer on the planet who truly understands Superman and his supporting cast is Elliot S! Maggin.

I dearly wish some bright cookie at DC would offer Maggin enough money to tempt him into writing and/or editing the Superman titles full-time again.



Again, a dead-on analysis.  The major problem in the mentality behind comics today is, as has been stated in this thread before, the fact that the majority of writers and artists involved simply never grew up.  Psychologically, they're still stuck at about age 17, when life fraks, it always fraks, and it's only going to frak more as time goes on.  They believe that they gleeful nihilism they're churning out is intrinsically artistic, and to go in any other direction violates their artistic sensibilities.

They're simply not capable of seeing the reality of what they're doing because their vision of reality is stunted.



Yes.  In a particularly grisly fashion which was unfortunately totally consistent with the way they killed off the rest of the Freedom Fighters.

You want a real shock, you should watch Bizarro gleefully beating the Human Bomb to death.  Fortunately, we weren't treated to the actually destruction of Human Bomb's body, but only because the explosions hid it.  The real horrifying part was Bizarro's revelling in the destruction. He looked like every child's nightmare:  a psychotic, crystal-faced version of Arnold Schwartzenegger in in his prime, gleefully beating someone to death for the pure fun of watching what happens when you pound super-strong invulnerable fists through flesh.

It was both appalling and simultaneously betrayed everything these morons don't know about Bizarro's character.  I'm glad Julius Schwartz isn't around to see this.



Again, I'm in total agreement.  Everyone is so thrilled at the last page of the book that they're ignoring all the horrific, gleefully nihilistic mayhem that occupied literally every other page of the book.



Well, to be fair, they did bring back both Donna Troy and Princess Diana.  But I agree, in general, female characters do tend to remain dead while the only male character to remain so seems to be Uncle Ben ...



I don't disagree in any way.  The way she was killed was particularly interesting if you're planning to analyze it in psychological terms ...

Let's see ... killed by having a really long phallic symbol shoved into her ... ?  Hmm ... wonder if there's something there?

I fully expect to see the Golden Age Lois gang-raped by crazed members of the surviving original JSA with this bunch in charge.

(Well, actually, I hope not, since JSA is one of the few titles I've been able to actively enjoy in the last few years ...)

Dakota Smith

My objection to it would be largely based on context.  I'd have to read it and get the context before I knew for sure.  Now that it's been brought to my attention, I'll see if my local store (Acme Comics -- two-time winner and current holder of the Eisner Award for Best Retailer) has a copy.

However, the main problem isn't necessarily my objection, it's my childrens'.  They're 10 and 12, and at those ages, sex of any kind (hetero or homo) is just repulsive.  They don't even sit still well for kissing.  The kissing scene between Diana and Bruce in Starcrossed elicited the only outraged "Ewwwwww!!" from them of the entire movie.

It's kind of what I'm talking about in "marketing to children."  You have to understand your audience, and the pre-teen audience just doesn't want to see anything resembling sex.

Dakota Smith

It's odd that the only woman who was killed got the most graphic death.
Oh, and they killed Uncle Sam.

To me this website below sums up everything that the Modern "Superhero" comics stand for: http://www.the-pantheon.net/wir/

If someone wanted me to show them why I don't read comics anymore, I would just post that link.


I don't mind cheesecake, but not cheescake drenched in blood and bile.
That's just gross.

You're right Dakota, that scene in New Frontier (as is pretty much every other page in that book) was excellent. I still have severe problems with Superman being in the kind of government stooge role but at least that's where he starts when the story begins and not where he ends up. That 3-4 page conversation with Superman and Batman with Robin there
prolly brought the biggest smile to my face that a comicbook (especially one with Batman in it) has in many,many years.

The scene makes alot of good points, not least of which is what Batman and Robins relationship is really about. It's not about being a couple or a crazed psycho torturing a little boy, but about freindship. You also notice that the scene is not even saying that Batman should be as Dick Sprang portrayed him. In the scene Batman even with the altered costume is still cape over his shoulders and shadowy. But it's more that the character when in costume is generating his proper mysterious aura rather than projecting a monsterously corrupted soul. His DISGUISE strikes fear and terror into the hearts of CRIMINALS. The costume is a weapon not a psychosis. Batman is haunted by the past of course, but he's not a bitter and paranoid loon.

I really loved seeing Robin portrayed as a kid who was acrobatic and full of life. That scene is about everything that Frank Millers cynically diseased mind cannot get. He'd prolly start melting like the Wicked Witch of West if he ever read New Frontier. ..maybe we should send him a copy.

As much as I liked New Frontier itself what I almost liked more was the afterword in the vol.2 tpb by Cooke himself. He really broke it down into what it's all about.

As for Infinite Crisis I'd pretty much say until given truly sufficent reason to believe otherwise this will just be another gruesome parade like they've been doing and they'll just say we're wrong or we're scared or we just want the Silver Age back. I think that in a way is the most annoying part of all. You can't even object to what DC is doing without it being accused of wanting it to be the 50's and 60's again. Which is prolly why so many missed the point of New Frontier because Cooke made it a period peice and they can't see past the trappings.

Then try Witchgirls Inc.  It's more mystic detectives than superheroes.    If your comic store can't get them.  www.heroicpub.com does have an online ordering service and you can order back issues.  The best bet would be the comic they offered for Free Comic Book Day to give you an example of what the comics are like.

Giant, League of Champions, Flare, Witchgirls Inc., Black Enchantress, Alter Ego.  I've enjoyed most of the stories that Heroic Publishing puts out..


This is something that I almost forgot.  The stories are what DC and Marvel should be.  I do my best to bring them to other people's attention, to try and keep them around and force DC and Marvel to take a good long look at what Heroic is doing right and change their behavior.  I might not suceed, but I try.

One of my fave lines in New Frontier is when the World's Finest team meets up and Superman says, "New look for you?" :wink:

That site, while it cracks me up, is sad, because it's true.

I can't stand to read new comics anymore, because they're violent and lack imagination. Now, life might be violent and lack imagination, but the comics that I like are an escape...imaginative and fantastic.

Recent comics I've enjoyed...Banana Sunday, Zorro, Day of Vengeance. Only one of those is published by DC, and I enjoyed it only because I never get to see the Wizard Shazam or Detective Chimp in comics anymore. Maybe this is why Manga outsells comics. Now, if they'd just release a Detective Chimp manga...

That's just the tip of the iceberg for why manga outsells. part of it is vision. Heck even their work for hire stuff is usually the product of a single creator (with some assitance of course) working on one series and one story that doesn't interact with any others at a time.

Basically there is a variety of genres and tones which is always a plus. The age range for the stories that it does is wide as can be and in addition there is consideration given to a general audience of young and old alike. At the same time theres also stuff that is meant to zero in on a specific demographics. You get alot of bang for your buck per volume. A collected manga volume might be about 20 bucks but look how much comics you get for your 20 bucks.

The stories and series have beginings, middles, and endings. A complete experience. Even when dealing with long running franchises like for example Gundam, because each new incarnation has it's own identity and run which completes. Eventually giving way to a new take that is sometimes radical, somtimes traditional, sometimes both. Yet for the most part the same themes remain for each generation to experience for themselves.

So even if you don't like a version of that franchise that is currently running it will end in a short amount of time and things will move on. In addition, nobody has to feel shafted because whatever version they did like they are left with at least somekind of real closure for. Which makes things much easier for the reader to take or leave whatever comes after that.

It also helps to that the Japanese are less prone to just throwing whatever is old away. Having a sense of history is very important.

Also while you certainally have creators who like to spin things in different ways or analyze and deconstruct genres, you have just as many who are playing along with their genre just fine and just trying to do something entertaining with it. Rather than blaming the genres tropes or the characters or the audience for bad sales.

You also get something that the best superhero comics are really good at doing which is stories where you are getting a mixed bag rather than sort of stewing in one tone although there are certainally manga one can go to for just emersing themselves in a mood or just seeing something totally bizzare. I mean in the same story you have about a giant robot you might have comedy, maybe even a little tragedy but you also have drama and romance and tales about the virtues of freindship. Of course this can sometimes backfire to where the tone is so all over the place you can't get a grip on the series identity.

At the end of the day manga succeeds because it's a variety of genres for a variety of audeinces doing what they are each best at instead of one genre (superheroes) trying to do be everything for one audience and losing what IT is best at in the process.

And she was impaled, naturally.  There's probably something witty to say here about Freudian symbolism and the frustrated desires of comic geeks turned comics pros (which really just makes them professional geeks), but why bother, you've probably heard it already.  At least she wasn't stuffed into a Frigidaire afterwards.

Thanks to everyone for posting here, by the way.  I'm counting on detailed synopses of this series so I can keep saving my money for monthly "Showcase Presents" TPBs!

Reposting that image from the closed thread...

(http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/InfiniteCrisis/CapedMan/IC01Last.jpg)

I was really excited to see Kal-L, obviously...even though this is another bloody Crisis (literally.)

And yet, I smell a rat.

Kal-L appears to be flying. And, he appears to be wearing a sweater! These are not things that Kal-L, herald of all heroes, does! It may be DC's 70th anniversary, but this is unacceptable. Who knitted that thing? Is that what Lois has been doing for the past 20 years?

Um, manga is comics, I think.  More accurate to say, "this is why Japanese-style manga outsells non-Japanese-style superhero manga made by DC."

The spirit of Detective Chimp is something we have lost.  It is something the world of comics needs.

Darwyn Cooke rocks.

LOL, good irony there... 8)

Manga is japanese for comics.

But, let's not get too off topic here.

That's not a sweater, he's just got cuffs on his Superman suit.  And he had those same cuffs back in DC Comics Presents Annual #1, "Crisis on Three Earths."  He probably also had them in "Crisis on Infinite Earths," but I don't have my copy around to consult.

Maybe it's his special "Crisis" outfit?

:s:

Yes, he has it there as well, but his super-suit was also in pretty bad shape at the end there.

I'd imagine its a subtle homage to Kirk Alyn who was one of, if not the earliest person to portray Superman in live action. Kirks costume in the movie serials which you can read about on this site had a that kind of effect on the sleeves. Heck the costume itself may have even been wool or something.

We saw in Kingdom that he had the whole E-2 city of Metropolis trapped in there with him, so he must have just gotten an alternate suit from his apartment.

What I want to know is, someone whispered "her" into his ear - to whom was that referring?

:s:

Power Girl?
the new Supergirl?

One of those two, I would guess.

Or some "paradise" variation on the Earth-2 Metropolis I gather... given IIRC how old-fashioned that "Daily Star" office looked in "The Kingdom" (vs. the modern facilities I saw in the 80's stories that showed the "Star"). Though if it's the actual Earth-Two Metropolis, guess it'd explain where all those "Star" workers came from...

Here are the pages, if anyone wants to see them:

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/InfiniteCrisis/CapedMan/Kingdom01.jpg

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/InfiniteCrisis/CapedMan/Kingdom02.jpg

If this turns out to be Supergirl/Power Girl, then this would be about as much of a "touched by an angel" Supergirl as PAD's ever was.  :)

Right now there is speculation that the person who J'onn saw in JLA 119 is the Earth-1 Superman

I've been using an issue that was in-contuity to argue that it could very well be the Earth-1 Superman, since it contradicted everything about Alan Moore's story.

Now that things are goinng nuts, he returned.

Rao, I know this issue is BAD.  However, would you please put up DC Comics Presents #97?

It is the one comic that easily contradicts Alan Moore's Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?

If you can't or won't, I understand.

At any rate, DCCP97 takes precedence over Whatever Happened...

I hope the "sweater" or "Crisis suit" doesn't herald the return of awful costumes like Flashdance Supergirl, Harbinger, and super Alexei Luthor.

What is wrong with Supergirl's Crisis outfit?

Other than the headband of course?  :)

My guess is Power Girl, given what's gone on so far in JSA Classified and the cover of Infinite Crisis #2:

(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RQAAALcUYcxosBS5kafF6RtEU!TOtKVP5jAhRNPDgCpK7328jQoVCK9S7v7Ue4ucT2UBgCLk9Ajs3NE3yjU8fXvgZHxtvEX4xIkjIb*5Qgs/INCRCv2.jpg)

Though why the Golden Age Lois Kent is drawn like recent Surreal Life train wreck Janice Dickinson is beyond me ...

Dakota Smith

If so, why would he trash the Watchtower?

On another variation of the "Who Shot the Watchtower?" mystery, when I was buying IC1, the owner of my local comic store (Acme Comics -- two-time winner and current holder of the Eisner Award for Best Retailer) offered a theory.  She was quick to tell me that it's just a theory and that she is privy to no inside information that would indicate anything other than mere speculation on her part.

She thinks it was Supergirl.

Not the Silver Age Supergirl returned, but the current inhabitant of the new Supergirl monthly title.  She mentions the "darkness" in her that Power Girl mentions in Supergirl #1 and reasons that perhaps she was able to fool the Watchtower scanners because of her similar Kryptonian physiology to Superman.

Dunno ... I'm not sure who destroyed it, myself.  Not sure I care, to be honest, as these days I don't really have any emotional investment in the JLA.  Now, if someone trashes the New York brownstone of the JSA, I'm gonna be pretty snarked off.

Dakota Smith

On a brighter note:

Showcase Superman is selling like hotcakes. Comic Book Shops can't keep them in stock!

DC only cares about one thing... money.
So if anything those numbers should give us more Showcase volumes more often.

If you look carefully at old GA books and even Crisis On Infinite Earths, you'll notice the 'sweater' look on the sleeves of the original Superman and the E-2 Superman (they are not the same hero, btw).  This artist just made it more obvious.  But Perez had that same sleeve design in the last Crisis.

Also, E-2 Superman certainly was flying in the last Crisis and was flying in the Golden Age in the 1940s.  He only leaped in his early career before learning he could fly.  At least, that's how Schwartz explained it.  Even in the lame Mr. and Mrs. Superman stories he could fly.

All this talk of killing and nihilism reminded me of a great Pre Crisis Fabulous World of Krypton story.

Luckily, our gracious hosts have it on this site:
http://superman.nu/tales2/letmypeople/?page=1

That is how killing and senseless violence should be portrayed.

They found a win-win solution where everyone could live.

Comics stories should uplift us and help us see what we could be, not the dark failures that we could too easily become.

I agree that with Morrison soon to be at the helm, I can't help feeling optimistic.  His JLA stories certainly weren't mired in the grim'n'gritty, reality-is-pain crap of the other pseudo-writers.

OTOH, it would be nice if the overall quality of writing came up a few notches too.  Regardless of the attitude, bad writing can't do justice to either darkness of joy.

DeMatteis has proven he can do comedy, darkness, and cosmic abstraction.  He has my vote for a great writer in the DC pen.  If only they could be convinced to revive the old JLI/Superbuddies.  It is a shame that even the comical Superbuddies started turning dark in their last appearance.

That is what the problem is.  He went to rescue J'onn from the exploding Watchtower.  Someone else is responsible for the tower exploding.  Hank Henshaw seems most  likely

Vote seconded!

Nobody can possibly top Englehart's DEFENDERS run, but DeMatteis's NEW DEFENDERS was a good old college try, and while he didn't do anything truly mindblowing, something average and funny is good, whereas something average and not funny is just average. It helps too, that he was working with such wonderful characters where having humor spring from them was natural. Gargoyle was a wonderful character; check out his four issue miniseries if you don't believe me, and it's always great to see some of the Roy Thomas X-Men in action again. Though by far the greatest superteam featuring ex-X-Men has to be Bill Mantlo's enjoyable CHAMPIONS, which was tragically canceled before its time; CHAMPIONS can be compared to the first season of STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION, where everyone was just sort of fumbling around looking for how all this was going to work. NEXT GENERATION found its legs and dynamic and distinctive identity the second year; CHAMPIONS started to, with the introduction of Darkstar, but was canceled halfway into the second year. "What might have been..." with that series is one of the more tragic questions to ask.

It's easy to say with the Valkyrie that DeMatteis stood on the shoulders of giants when it came to characterization (considering how she became the center of the first Defenders by sheer force of personality under Stainless Steve), but DeMatteis was able to write her properly.



Both kinds of stories work for different reasons, I think, but generally superhero comics work better when telling the first.



This is true, though Morrison certainly has his share of infuriating pretention; his ANIMAL MAN was confusing, but confusing JUST ENOUGH that people can ascribe whatever meaning they want to it.

I think neither extreme of positivity or negativity really works by itself -- you have to have a balance.

Yes, it's good if the hero is fighting for a vision of a better world for everybody, and if the hero doesn't act like the ends justify the means. That makes us want to see the hero win.

On the other hand, the only way we'll really care is if we can be convinced that the hero stands a chance of losing. And that means that there have to be some stories where the heroes lose.

I couldn’t agree more, Dakota Smith. The reason so many of the creators that worked in the Silver Age were so extraordinary is because they had such a wide volley of amateur knowledge that came from reading and experience; Elliot Maggin’s interviews show him scattershotting, talking about everything from classic film to the Talmud. There was a story about how E. Nelson Bridwell repeated the “Tiger, Tiger burning bright” poem entirely from memory on command in the DC offices.

Most comic writers today on the other hand, read nothing but comics and watch only action movies. If Chuck Austen has actually read a single novel in his entire life (even one of the common ones everybody’s read that are sold in airports, like CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES, DUNE, and JURASSIC PARK) I would be astonished.



I find it depressing that, comparing this series to the original CRISIS (a pointless waste that was not the best series ever by ANY MEANS) it has the original CRISIS look like a sterling example of purpose and restraint.

Consider: there was a reason every single person died in the CRISIS; shortsighted, greed-influenced reasons certainly, but reasons nonetheless. Supergirl’s movie busted very badly, negating her future potential as a moneymaker (at least as seen by the DC chair jockeys, whose lack of vision rivals Mr. Magoo) and further, she didn’t fit the editorial direction her books were to go in under Wolfman and later, Byrne. The Flash’s book had been canceled at issue 350 and nobody had absolutely any plan for him. Wolfman put in a way that could easily bring Barry back if somebody wanted to do so that was perfectly natural, and the Silver Age Flash’s death, at least the way I read it, was pretty much just meant to give him a place to be until somebody thought of something for him to do.

Here in INFINITE CRISIS, they’re just killing off folks left and right just for the hell of it.



I completely agree, Gary. One reason that Morrison's JLA bugs me is because he was never able to achieve a sense of fear surrounding the challenges the JLA face; they were immortal, and when in battle, as assured of victory as the heavenly choirs of angels or the '72 Miami Dolphins. Didn't Morrison even establish it was a law of universe that the JLA automatically win every fight they get into? And even during Morrison's run, they pounded the everliving angel food cake out of the heavenly choirs. I'm fairly positive that if Morrison's run had lasted longer, he would have had the JLA go back in time and beat the '72 Dolphins at Superbowl VI.

Kurt Busiek's JLA, in just eight issues embarassingly enough, totally outshone everything Morrison did because he was able to so successfully immerse us in his story that while intellectually we knew the JLA was going to come out on top (it IS their name on the comic, after all) emotionally, the outcome was nail-bitingly in doubt.

To be fair, Julian, Infinite Crisis also has the same sales-dependent motivations behind the supposed 'pointless' deaths.  Notice that none of the vast numbers of characters killed off in either IC #1 or the lead-in miniseries were salesmakers, held their own books, or otherwise were active characters in the DCU?  Much as we might miss Ted Kord, he was not a bright light in the DCU, for example.  The same goes for the Freedom Fighters.

And, just as in the original Crisis, the deaths were more for shock-value than anything else to show 'DC means business' with this supposed real change.

But Crisis did mean real change.  We've seen the evidence both good and -- mostly! -- bad since then.

What's in doubt is if (1) we'll see real change this time, and (2) is that change for the better?

Part of those shock-value deaths may be a need to clean house at DC.

I mean, would many people miss the Supermen of America or Rocket Red?  Despite what the MM fanboys would have us believe, J'Onn hasn't done that well as he's repeatedly failed to hold his own book.  Killing him off is a sales-neutral action like killing off Blue Beetle.

Most comic readers don't read anything but comics or watch action movies.  

That's why a lot of this new stuff is considered great by them. ;)

It was obvious that one of the old Green Lantern Corps writers was a fan of E.E.'Doc' Smith's Lensman series.  Arisia, Eddore.  Was there a GL named Boskone or Valeron(This is Skylark, but still...)?

I wonder if the DC writers have even read a single Greek or Norse myth in High School.

Nothing has changed. I say that we lead a takeover of DC, then turn it into a nonprofit organization.

Blue Beetle and the Wizard Shazam, while not salesmakers, are classic characters who should have been left alone. However, the death of Shayera didn't even make sales sense...she's one of the main characters in Justice League Unlimited!!

DC is just going to piss off another generation of comics readers. While I prefer pre-Crisis Superman stories, I wasn't even alive in the 60s and 70s. I grew up with the Justice League that has just been killed...Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Fire and Ice, Maxwell Lord, etc. And while I have no giant attachment to these characters...I'm sure plenty of people do. It's quite similar to the death of Barry Allen, just a new generation enduring it.

Certainly not by Dan Jurgens; his THOR, LORD OF ASGARD actually makes me nostalgic for Electric Superman.

There was a joke around the Marvel offices back in the 1990s that Todd McFarlane had a vocabulary of 200 words, and 100 of them were "f---."



I for one would miss both those characters. Rocket Red was a great Englehart creation. As for the Supermen of America, they were a concept that had potential to be developed in the hands of a good writer. The Martial Artist that used a bioelectric field to use Martial Arts at a distance was a really trippy concept; their ethnic and racial makeup was refreshing.

This is exactly the sort of reason that I'm generally against character death, even against characters "nobody will miss" (I for one will be up in arms if Marvel ever kills off the Living Pharaoh or Texas Twister or Squirrel Girl). Novelists, who close the book on the world they create when their book is done, can kill off whoever they like because they'll never revisit it. But in serial fiction, character death is doing the one thing you are never supposed to do: close a door.

Just because Writer A, does not see future story potential in a character, does not mean Writer B will not. Eliminating a character is a waste.

It apparently happens in soaps all the time, without the philisophic justification.  And grossness.

If anyone really, truly wants those characters back, the resurrection-well in comics is still fully functioning. ;)

Seriously, creators routinely come up with ways to bring back killed off characters.  Witness the triumphant returns of Hal Jordan/GL and Kara Zor-El/Supergirl.  Sometimes they don't even bother to explain how they came back, esp. re: villains.

Also, nothing stops them from creating alternate or similar versions of dead characters.  DC used Metallo's brother to make a new Metallo after the original was killed.  Marvel used Thunderbird's brother to replace the killed off original Thunderbird.

Really, you're making too big a deal over this housecleaning.

If these guys stay dead and gone, given the above options that have been used before, that underscores how unusable they are.  The door is always open.

Here's a thought:

If DC is returning the E-2 Superman to continuity, then arguably Superman could be once again the first super-hero, the legendary great grandaddy who started the whole shebang.

Surely, the different Supermen are just different incarnations of the same fundamental character.

In a way, since he and his companions helped 'create' the Post Crisis DCU, they might be considered predating the history of that entire universe.

I sincerely doubt that he's going to be around for very long. After the last issue of IC I'm sure that he, Lois, Alexander Luthor, and Superboy-Prime will return to their dimension (or whatever the proper term is in this case).

I am glad to see the old guy back, though, even if it's just for a short while.

Actually I think we'll see Superboy-prime remain behind and Kon-El go off to "that other place", this will happen because Kon-El still can't deal with the Luthor DNA and E-2 Superman, Luthor, and Lois promise to show him how to become the man he is meant to be. SB-Prime will move in with Clark and Lois for a while before showing up on the Kent farm, where he'll have a few adventures with as Superboy before going to the future and joining the LSH that was inspired by the legends of him and Supergirl, restoring the LSH orginal primise and keeping these folks around for when ever they need to be brough out of the closet for a good storry line.

Well, except that the current LSH doesn't appear to have been inspired by Superboy, but rather the 20th century heros in general.

There have now been two -- count 'em, two -- reboots of the LSH since the Crisis, both invalidating major parts of Post-Crisis continuity.  All that stuff with the "pocket universe" Superboy?  Never happened, neither in the first reboot, nor the second.  Which certainly makes one wonder about the status of Matrix/Supergirl/Linda Danvers, since she came from the same pocket universe.  And the current Superman's killing of Zod and his cronies, since they were also from that pocket universe.

And I continue to maintain that at the end of Infinite Crisis, Superman, Lois, Alexander Luthor, and Superboy won't simply return to their "prison dimension."  Rather, they'll be dead.

Dakota Smith

You mean since Crisis on Infinite Earths?  I thought there have been at least 4 or 5, including a couple in the Bierbaum/Giffen run.

:s:

Well, by "reboot" I mean a complete re-start of the LSH from a blank slate, as opposed to the various retcons necessary to account for grafting a pre-Crisis LSH onto a post-Crisis universe.

And while LSH continuity is now so massively fracked-up with respect to the rest of the continuity in general as to be essentially incomprehensibe, we are now on our second complete-reboot of the LSH, as far as I know.  I.e. including the pre-Crisis LSH, there are three separate teams that have called themselves the LSH, lived in three separate 30th and 31st centuries, and which are each mutually exclusive to the others.

Dakota Smith

urgh.. it is so confusing..

The story became worse over time when the whole Anti-K regular K dynamic came up. No matter what K was invovled there was somewhere Superman could take (or have them taken) that would have saved them.

Another Luthor has also returned.. and I am not talking about the kid from Earth-3!
...


The Six proved to be such a thorn in the side of the Society that Luthor called for an all out assault on the Six’s headquarters (The House of Secrets), which went down in issue #6. Of course, there was a little more than a big fight happening in the issue, a Simone pulled back the curtain to reveal Mockingbird’s identity – Lex Luthor.

No, not that same one that was leading the Society – another Lex Luthor. The “mad scientist” Luthor compared to the Society’s suave businessman and politician Lex Luthor (who had, in the meantime, kidnapped Paraiah, who is drawn to catastrophic destruction, and was warning Luthor that another wave of massive destruction is coming).

Still scratching your head? Don’t worry – we sat down with Simone for a who’s who, what’s what, and more importantly, Luthor who? session.

read it here: http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=024419b7f152fbb1674d734718a9faba&threadid=46915

LSH continuity is now messed up? Heck it has been messed up from the get go as anyone fortunite enough to have ICG's Offical Legion of SUper-Heroes Index knows. Within one issue DC screwed up the Legion: Saturn girl fires lighting bolts from here eyes? Say what? Then for one issue (Action #284) the Legion jumps from the 30th century to the 21st century. Things basicly go down hill rapidly from there and here were are only at 1962.

By the time the Silver age became the Bronze age c1970 Legion continuity looked like a Rube Goldburg machine designed by someone on an overdose of LSD; in short an convoluted mess.

LOL, you could be right... :lol:

In the spirit of disageement, I am wondering about continuity and "canon" a lot lately.

I really wish that after their reboots, DC and Marvel would establish a relative timeline, then dissect out all of the comic book nouns, interrelationships, and events for every issue being printed.  Throw it all into a database.  Use the database to sort out what's generally possible and not possible to do.  If a need to retcon emerges to tell a better story, try and figure out a way to resolve the brokenness it may cause the database in a way that makes for equally good storytelling.  Have the rabid fan community help in designing and specifying how the database works...  make it "open source".  Don't rely on editors and writers remembering every going on in a huge shared world.

I disagree.

The problem with Crisis on Infinite Earths (besides the horror of watching billions of people die) was the rigid continuity that came afterwards, similar to your database in many respects.

DC didn't allow time travel until 1991. That's what killed the Legion of Superheroes and caused all of these reboots.  Superman's powers were limited so that he could not travel to other planets...making Superman no longer a sci-fi character. Most of the Superman universe ceased to exist, since only the Fourth World was accessible, through boom tubes. The world of Smallville, Bizarro World, Atlantis, Midvale, etc. were no more, while Krypton was too boring to write about. Superman's world became much smaller, because DC forced it to be so.

I'm not denying that it isn't possible to bring back a character in a way that is satisfying and interesting and that doesn't look completely cheesy (look at all the various resurrections of Wonder Man, for example, made all the better because said resurrections affected his characterization) but in general, character resurrection is an overused device. And also like I said, character resurrection is (for the most part) a male-only option.



I don't know if I'd agree with this, because some characters that are perfectly usable remain dead for all sorts of reasons apart from whether the character is interesting or not. I suspect the reason Hal didn't return as Green Lantern for as long as he did was because that would mean DC would have to admit that they made a mistake.



It's cheesy when soaps kill off the aged patriarch/matriarch that's been on the show since the first season, though soap opera characters generally die of some sexy, romantic wasting disease, whereas female characters in comics generally die from refrigerator stuffing, sexual violence, phallic stabbings, and falls from bridges.

Also - and this is the best news I've heard all week - Luthor, the REAL Luthor, is back in DC-Town. Woohoo!

WHY, do you ask, am I so jazzed about this? Because:

1) he isn't being brought back as a shock value person to kill off, as they so obviously are intending to do with Earth-2 Superman;

2) He's being played up with the competence and dignity that this character deserves and possesses;

3) He's up and around to tan the backside of that creepy Byrne Luthor, and who can be against that?

These are stupid decisions.  I'm not saying "make the universe smaller to make continuity easier" (which I don't think was at the heart of most of those decisions, apart from perhaps time travel).  I'm not saying "make dumbass paint-in-a-corner decisions to ditch the stuff that fans like about characters".  All I'm saying is:  Don't have three "first meetings" because you forgot they already met.  Don't give someone a universe changing power or engage in universe changing event without it making an impact on the universe, and assessing the overall impact beforehand.  Use a tool (as opposed to the tool using you) to track this stuff, to visualize changes before they happen.  20 years ago, that wasn't terribly practical.  Now it is.

First, let me state that I'm a Hal fan.  I'm not one of those Hal-nazis that hate everything Kyle, non-Hal, or makes Hal-less-than-God.  But I do prefer Jordan amongst the GLs.

Sales-wise, Kyle was doing great.  While a certain polarizing occurred amongst GL fans (my own attempt to grievously understate the intense hostility of the two camps ;) heh heh), the actual GL popularity and sales had exactly the hoped and planned for effect.

I recall a story where old GL issues were on sale.  The Kyle books were bought up very quickly.  The Hal books hardly moved in comparison.  Go figure.

Bringing Hal Jordan back as GL isn't so much an admission of error but adding to their options of marketing GL.  DC could have sat back and let Rayner keep the spotlight and their plan would still have worked.

IOW, DC didn't make a mistake as far as their sales were going.  If they wanted to, they could have waited for all the Hal fans to simply die off and it wouldn't have made a difference to how the book was doing.  Heck, I suspect a lot of Hal-fans-Kyle-haters bought the book just to find reasons to diss Kyle some more.  I know some Superman-haters who buy Superman for the similar reason of looking for things to knock Kal-El about.

I know there are lots of other examples, but how about the -- now forgotten -- original version where the Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl, and Cosmic Boy that first contacted Supergirl for Legion membership were supposed to be the children of the super-heroes who inducted Superboy?

Grant Morrison was goiing to change all that with a Hypercrisis series, which will now never happen, here is his thoughts on Crisis and the DC universe.

Grant Morrison quote:

Anyway, Crisis was all right but in the end it left a DC universe stripped of its childlike lunacy, and in which some fairly dull limits were placed on the creative imagination by John Byrne and others (for sound creative and marketing reasons perhaps but short-sighted, I believe, as these things often are). This seemed to me a boring path to take in a business which relies on peddling the rawest and most outrageous fruits of the deranged mind and so I began to rebel against the prevailing trends as soon as I got work on a mainstream DCU title. I missed the super-pets and the parallel worlds and felt they could have been handled in a number of ways and still retain their odd appeal and meaning. I hated the post-Dark Knight school of pain-and-guilt comics and I'd lost interest in the claustrophobic 'realism' of the Watchmen camp, so by the time I got hold of Animal Man in 1987 I was ready to bring all my favorite four-color John Broomist crap back in a tidal wave of self-referential madness. Hence Animal Man and especially Doom Patrol.

AFAICT, the limit that's hard in a shared universe is the "big deal" limit.  The same "big deal" event should result in roughly the same level of fuss throughout the world.  Whether it's a "lot of fuss" or "little fuss", it should be reasonably consistent.  

A million people vanish, and the only place anyone really mentions about it is in the Superman books, because it's Superman who makes them vanish?  Like Batman wouldn't be on the case, on behalf of the many Gothamers that went missing?  Or any number of other folks?  Dumb.

Since Julian likes Hal as GL :), let's talk about Kyle's stint as Ion where he turns into a godlike figure for awhile.  He doesn't heal Oracle because...?  Well, becoming godlike isn't as big a deal in the cosmic tales of the GL as it is in the less-cosmic tales of the Birds of Prey.  GL works better in space.  Batman works better on the streets of Gotham.  Perhaps they need to have a couple universes, not one big one.  They forked the mystics into Vertigo, so do another fork.

This is something that really, really bugs me about the Modern DCU, is that they do not take their shared universe seriously; whether it be because of lack of communication between the various departments, editors asleep on the job, or good old-fashoined egomania, they do not coordinate together so that there are no rational, real-seeming consequences to really anything. The reverse-rapture engineered by Superman that nobody else talked about is by far one of the worst offenders in this regard second only to NO MAN'S LAND.

Generally, my position has been that "continuity," as modern fans call it, or rather, consistent worldbuilding, ultimately, is GOOD.

But that does not mean some stories just aren't possible, because in a universe where you have Superman, the Green Lanterns, and others, they just don't make any kind of SENSE. I'm talking about KNIGHTFALL here; making it a Bat-only crossover is mind-bogglingly bad logic.

Dennis O'Neil approved this story when he was Batman editor, so I suppose he's to blame for not shooting it down immediately as any sane editor would have.  I tell ya, that guy was great on HAWKMAN AND THE ATOM, but things just started to go south when he took away Wonder Woman's powers and had her wear gogoboots and a catsuit. Whoa. On second thought, Dennis O'Neil is the greatest writer ever.

Nonetheless, there are some people that can't handle thinking in terms of superheroic power level. Remember Dennis's fill-in story on JLA a few years ago? The one where the JLA, who have the assembled power to travel through time and battle entire alien armadas unscathed, piddled around saving a species of endangered monkey?



Good point, Re: Batman, who the writers feel that they need to segregate into his own corner of the DC Universe where nobody thinks or talks about him.

You know, you can take the vigilante out of the noir city, but you can't take the noir city out of the vigilante.

Maybe this is the secret to handling Batman in other comics where he deals with elements opposed to his own world, which lacks space age, science fiction elements: just have him stay being Batman, stay being deductive, even when the JLA is on the fourth Moon of the Grimlack system fighting superintelligent gorillas.

Marv Wolfman understood this dynamic; Batman, in NEW TEEN TITANS #4, confronted by mystics creating a circle, left the magic stuff to Zatanna, but he noted "Note that the ritual leaves NO SIGN OF STRAIN!" See? Even in this crazy Ditko other swirlydimension, Batman was still being Batman.

The people that state that one of Batman's greatest strengths is his plausibility don't get the character. Batman lives in a stylized world of gargoyles, constant rain, and a giant moon in the background, a world that is just as unreal as say, Superman's.

When you're fighting Two-Face with Robin tied to a pair of twelve foot dice, is Batman fighting on another planet REALLY so jarring a change?

There's just no way that that storyline could've taken a whole year. A month, at most.

I will admit, though, that "For Tomorrow" offered the first comics I've ever read in which the Clark/Lois relationship seemed even vaguely, well, sexy. And I don't mind the Fortress being moved to South America. And we finally have the "real" Zod back.

http://www.lacunae.com/archives/000398.html

Interestng review of the current mess by Douglas Wolk on his blog.  Wolk is an astute critic who does comics reviews for mainstream print sources (Wash Post, Believer, etc) and it's funny to see him writing as an uncritical fanboy about a series that just looks like carp to me.

Actually DC did allow Time Travelbefore 1991: Comic Boy mini series (1987) then in Superman #8 (Aug 1987) and Boster Gold was revealed to be time traveler. The Time Masters series (1990) tried to establish the rules for time travel in the DC post-Crisis universe wuch like most of their efforts was poorly thought out; the idea that one method of time travel woudl work only twice (once to the past once to return home) was DOA when you remambers the exploits of Barry Allen, Professor Zoom, AbraKadabra all of who each used the same method of time travel enough times to qualify for frequent time travel minutes.

Superman did not need to go to other planets to be a Sci-Fi character as Verne and Wells stayed firmly on earth in their Sci-Fi novels. Nor did taking him back to his 1940's Golden Age power levels limit the stories that could be done. Notice that some of the best Silver and Bronze Age stories do not have Superman exclusivly using his power but using his brain as well something that was sorely lacking in the Silver Age much of the time.

On the issue of the current Superman verses the ones of days gone by we are treated to the best those ages has to offer in reprints. The 'what were they thinking?' or 'were they thinking?' stories are quietly filed away.

Like the totally idiotic one where Superman is clasified as 4f because he accidently used his X-ray vision to see the chart in the next room. Then instead of finding a way go join up as Superman he just putters around the US fighting bozos the JSA could have easily handled if Superman had had enough brains to tell his friend what the sam hill was going on.  The after the fact Spear of Destiny retcon fixed this but until it did there were a lot of things wrong with that picture.

The Earth-1 Superman had similar problems especially when the more 'realistic' Bronze Age came along. Superman's non-involvement in Korea or Vietnam was never really delt with. Then there was the constant idea Lois had that somehow Clark Kent and Superman were the same person even though he had made it appear they were two seperate people more times than I can count.

Also that Pre-Crisis Lex Luthor never figured out Superman and Clark Kent were the same person was increadable. Luthor knew Superman had some form of secret identity and that he had once been Superboy. The number of people whose leaving Smallville and arriving in Metropolosis that matched the departure of Superboy and the appearance of Superman likely could be counted on one hand. Luthor with his obsesion and his brain should have figure it out with a speed rivaling that of his Bryne counterpart.

Yeah,  I stumbled over that sci-fi reference too.  If anything, it limited the space opera aspect of Superman.  But the door was wide open for the return of the Super-Mobile!

That Cosmic Boy series looked weird.  And even though I love the New Gods, I wonder at the predominance of Apokolips in Earthly affairs post-Crisis, from Legends on (the last John Byrned project I ever bought??).

He was still learning to control his powers then.  :)

These days, he wouldn't get past the blood test.

As a rule, Superman (outside of the World War II stories seen, both in the 1940's and in the "All Star Squadron" flashbacks) doesn't get involved in wars... thus, the Earth-1 Superman wasn't any more involved in Vietnam than the current guy was in the two Gulf Wars. Plus, it wouldn't have been good for sales probably in the 60's/70's for SUpes to get caught up in a controversial war... :-)  

Would guess the Vietnam War's controversialness would've made it off-limits for any in-depth analysis for the 80's Superboy stories as well (after they moved his time-era up to the sixties)...

Not sure if the pre-Crisis Luthor really cared about secret identities as much as Lois seemed to harp on the issue...

Even for a non-controversial war like WWII (the big one), it would be pretty tough to write someone like Superman into it. He quite clearly out-powers any of the forces that are on the field in real life. If the other side doesn't get any comparably powerful superhumans, the war will be over pretty quickly, and the normal human troops are really kind of superfluous since Superman can fight the battle for them much better than they can. If the other side do have comparably powerful superhumans, then the normal human troops are still at least cast into a secondary role, since the conflict between the superhumans is likely to be the deciding factor, and it's still likely to be over quicker since battles between superheroes don't usually take several years to resolve the way conventional wars do. So either way, you've marginalized the people who in real life are fighting the war.

Supes' code vs. killing is another huge problem. You can't have a war without killing. Maybe if you wanted to do a story where Supey has to readjust his principles and come to terms with a view where killing is sometimes necessary, it might work.

Kurt Busiek, if you are reading this thread, I wonder what your thoughts on this are.

http://superman.nu/tales2/endsthewar/

I don't see any need for Superman to be involved with "normal human troops" - it would be like a guy squashing ants.  No need for him to be concerned about them as a threat; if anything, he would probably feel sympathy for the troops on both sides, that they were all needlessly being killed.

If he did get involved in a war, he would probably just go after the "big boss" (or bosses) - the force(s) behind the war, those responsible for all the deaths on both sides.

As far as Superman and WWII, Siegel and Shuster did write a tale where Superman just up and stopped the war in two pages (see above link).  For them, Superman was always about wish fulfillment - whether it's being Lois's unattainable heart-throb, stopping bullies, getting bank robbers, or halting global conflict.  Once Superman stops fulfilling those wishes, he isn't Superman anymore.  DC may curently claim that this story is a "what if," but I firmly believe that in S&S's minds, it was real.  Perhaps there is an Earth-something (could it be Earth-2?) where this story took place - and Superman did indeed end the war.

:s:

Not Earth-2, I'm afraid---there, World War II went on as scheduled, with Hitler's use of the Spear of Destiny keeping the JSAers adversely affected by magic from entering Axis territory. This included Superman, natch.

Then it must have been on Earth-Siegel - the Golden Age as it existed before Earth-2 was created.

:s:

As to the "spear of destiny"...

I suppose that's "canon" (actually, I know it is)...

We need a realistic canon thread...I was on the Superman Homepage the other day, trying to say that stories and their times are related, but most younger folks just kept saying, no Golden Age and Earth 2 are separate...and sure there are reasons to think this, but there are plenty of reasons to think its bunk, based on the real spirit of the origin of Earth 2 as it happened...

Sorry lad, but the real Golden Age Superman and Earth-2 Superman do not really add up, so they can't be the same person. It's not like it's only a few things either, there are lots.

The Golden Age Superman worked at and lived in the city of Cleveland, Ohio.

It does make me wonder if Smallville or the Kent farm was also originally in Ohio, and maybe Midvale as well.

I can see moving from one of the farm towns in Ohio and moving to one of the big cities in the state.  I can not see, moving from Kansas and going across how many states to work in Metropolis in New York or Deleware.

Cleveland is on the shores of Lake Erie, so those shots of Superman's city from a body of water is actually from the North and looking south.  As to any amsument parks that showed up in those early stories, that would have to be Cedar Point

If Midvale was, it would logically be Marion, Ohio.  Marion is not a big city, nor a small town.  It also goes by the name Heart of Ohio.

As this very site shows (http://superman.nu/a/History/VersionI.php) there are major differences between the Golden Age Superman from 1940 on that do not match with the Earth-2 Superman:

1) Golden Age Superman had Perry White who replaced George Taylor in 1940 and worked for the Daily Planet. Earth-2 Superman worked under George Taylor and was made editor-in-chief in place of Perry White for the Daily Star.

2) The Golden Age Superman's Luthor went bald in 1941, the Earth-2 Luthor never was bald.

3) The Golden Age Superman was the only survivor of Krypton, the Earth-2 Superman like his Earth-1 counterpart had a cousin who survived as well as assorted Krytonian criminals.

4) All Kryptonians (http://superman.nu/tales2/action1/?page=1) had the powers of the Golden Age Superman even on Krypton (which became a major problem as his powers increased), this was not true for the Earth-2 Superman. This idea was kept clear into August 1950.

Actually, I know that they don't add up, but the intention of Earth 2 when the "Flash of Two Worlds" was written seems to have been to make the Golden Age fit...

That's what I meant by taking into account the time...then other stories go their ways...

In at least one golden-age story Clark sent his story to a ohio newspaper.  That does not prove that he lived in Cleveland.  Jerry & Joe could have done that as a nod to that newspaper or as an in-joke.  Superman in the comics was never based in cleveland.  Before his city was identified as Metropolis, it was implied to be New York.  Before Smallville was created it was implied that Clark grew up in metropolis.  Or a suburb of it.  Smallville (untill the Byrne/Wolfman reboot) was in the same state as metropolis, not kansas.  In real life people move all over the U S.  All the time.  


     Untill Alexie Luthor appeared in the Mr & Mrs Superman stories, it was assumed that the Earth-2 Luthor was bald.  The series of retcons that created the Earth-2 Superman was not really thought through.  When the Earth-2 Kal first appeared in a JLA/JSA story, he looked more like he actually did through most of the golden-age.   Earth-2 Luthor could have still been bald & still "had" a full head of red hair for his first 8 or so appearances.  Maybe in those stories Luthor was wearing a toupee.  Maybe between his last appearance with hair & his first appearance as a bald man, he was caught & sent to jail. Or prison.  Prisoners are not allowed things like hairpieces & toupees.  How would i have accounted for the Daily Star & the Daily Planet.  Simple Clark & Lois left the Daily Star & went to the Daily Planet.  Maybe they were offered better pay.

The separation of Earth 1 and 2 by those distinctions by later stories didn't work for me (but that's just me), they seemed kind of un necessary, but I am not a big Earth Prime fan either...

But I pay attention to them...

Maybe the Earth-2 Luthor (after being bald for awhile) simply found a cure for his own baldness (unlike his Earth-1 counterpart)? ;-)

I'm guessing (being no expert) that there is a general correlation between the GA Superman and the E2 Supes, with the differences being attributed to still other parallel-Earth counterparts (who knows how many Supermen there actually were, pre-Crisis). For example, one '40s story had Supes being able to change shape, something neither the E1 or E2 Superman could do in later issues. I like to think of the GA Superman as the original, and prefer to overlook the discrepancies.

Actually i have thought of  that.  So have others like E Nelson Bridwell.  Maybe most of golden-age DC took place on Earth-2.  But in the Superman stories focus was shifted to another as yet unidentified Earth.  On that earth: Clark worked for Perry White at the Daily Planet; his real name is Kal-El; his Superman costume is more identical to that of his Earth-1 counterpart; Luthor is bald; etc..  However except for the differences the two "golden-age" Supermen had identical lives & careers.  In the 40s at least.  This has been suggested numerous times over the years, by many others.

George Pérez’s cover to next month’s Infinite Crisis #2:

Just click on the link to view it.
http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/InfiniteCrisis/INFCR_Cv2_GP.jpg

That was Action Comics #2.  Action Comics #11 more specifically notes that Clark Kent lives in Cleveland.


Smallville was placed in New Jersey in the LSH comics, or "hundreds of miles away in the midwest", or any number of places.  The Superman movie placed Smallville in Kansas, and Byrne went with that.  Whatever state Metropolis was in changed a lot -- Ohio (as Cleveland with Toronto skyscrapers), Illinois (as Chicago), Delaware (not a whole lot of room for a Smallville and Metropolis in Delaware :) ), New York, etc.

It seem that he only knew Superman from the movie and superfriends and never read an actual comic, besides the ones he worked on.

Did they ever say where it was during the sliver age?

I always thought it was suppose to be like anytown, USA in other words like it was in it's own made up state or something.

I assumed the same, placing it in an actual State doesn't make the mythos any stronger, a farming community and a small town worked for me...

Power Girl's butt looks odd...

from a recent chat with the big bad wolf:




DC wouldn't do a bait and switch right? Nah, never them, I mean...

JSA Classified #4 gives us the true origin of Power Girl which ties directly into Infinite Crisis.  Big surprise: She's back to being the Kryptonian cousin of the Earth-2 Superman.  This 'big reveal' is a bit anticlimactic and is not worthy of the usual work Johns does with fixing characters.  Heck, anyone could have scripted that.  It's just an acknowledgement that a Pre Crisis DCU existed before so big deal.

Wanna bet the reason she still exists in the Post Crisis DCU is because Kal-L still lived in that other dimension so he's her tether to reality?

If that's so, that gives me hope Kal-L won't be killed off in this series though he still may be shunted to some nowhereville or even frozen in time or limbo somewhere just so PG could still exist.

OTOH, maybe he'll stay so Superman is the first super-hero again.

Ah, I can dream ...

Better yet, let's have this Superman died a heroic death and stay dead for real and have Earth-2 Superman take over his books.

I can dream right?  :wink:

Good for PG. Now can we figure out the Kryptonian past of Post-Crisis Kara?

Any, thought who's thinks that Golden Age Superman is going to die. I got a few words for you: "Do you want cheese with your whine?" Seriously, now that Kal-L as a connect to this Earth, I don't think he will die. Neither will the modern-day Superman.

SuperThinnker makes a good point.

We have many guys named 'Flash' and the same goes for 'Green Lantern'.

They're clearly not going to kill off Power Girl even though she's now -- again! -- an alternate world version of Supergirl.

Why not have an alternate world version of Superman, in this case the supposed 'first' Superman?  I could live with it.

Hey, if DC is smart, keeping both Supermen around could be a way to sell more Superman books.  I'm pretty sure the market would buy into another book or books focused on the E-2 Man of Steel.

No thanks, but I'll be more than happy to have a full plate of crow if the whole thing does actually lead to a better and brighter DCU with Earth-2 Superman living, intact, and not made to look stupid in any way.

When I say I have no faith in DC, trust me; I *want* to be wrong. Maybe all this Identity and Infinite Crisis crap is simply the last gasp of the long drawn out and blood soaked Iron Age before a new dawn rises. .. but I have serious doubts. I don't think DC has the talent or the guts to turn away from from the same old grimschlock they've been doing. We've already been sold a false bill of goods on All Star, promised one thing and gotten Frank Millers Bat-a$$hat instead.

So, if DC ever finds the sun again I'll have that plate with sauce and eat it all up with some humble pie for desert. Until then, I expect nothing short of the worst case scenario. Liek I said in previous posts, I loathe being cycnical about anything but with mainline superhero comics I am. It saddens me, but I am. It's a weird place to be in where in your heart of hearts you're a Superman fan but you can't stand to read about 99.99% of the books he appears in.

I hear you, Kuuga.  I fear you're right.

In the meantime, instead of wallowing in the likely worst case scenario and getting depressed over it, let's fantasize about what we'd like to see.  It's more fun.

I think it would be cool if the older Superman stayed around and mentored his younger counterpart.  Wolfman's "Crisis on Three Earths" in DCCP Annual #1, 1982 comes to mind here.  I liked how Marv had the older hero counselling and guiding the younger guy.  E-1 Superman thinks Luthor's hatred for him is what's making him threaten the destruction of two Earths, while his older counterpart says, "Stay calm, my friend.  You're still young and you take things too personally.  This isn't aimed at either you or me, no matter what the Luthors might insist.  The sickness that infects them would be there even if we didn't exist."  Man, that was a great series of panels.  That's just an example.

OTOH, it might be fun to see the old guy checking up on the younger guy with lines like, "And just what do you think you're doing?" just before he messes up.   :lol:

What was the expression? "Hope for the Best.  Prepare for the Worst."

I think that the E2 Superman could certainly fit into today's DCU, particularly if the concept of parallel Earths returns. Superboy-Prime could probably find a place, too. We'll see. If these characters are killed off, my already tepid interest in modern comics will evaporate altogether.

Ok if we're going to play the what if game, how about this, since we hope to get back some if not all the pre crisis DCU back, how about a return of the the planet with the folks from Kandor (the bottled city) After setting our current Superman back on path the E2 Superman, Superboy Prime, and company go to live there? that way they are not killed off, and are around when if DC needs/wants to bring them back.

What I'm wondering is when the e2 Superman makes his aperance what is going to happen with all those e2 hero's that ended up on our world will they start getting memory flashes of how it use to be?

Hear that loud "YESSSSSS!" sound in your homes?

That's the sound of Roy Thomas, once somebody told him they're bringing back Earth-2, if that is indeed what they're doing. Does this mean we'll get guest-appearances by Hugo Danner, King Kong, Indiana Jones, and that lady robot from Metropolis?

I for one, think a restoration of some old-time elements is perfectly in character for DC these days; Geoff Johns brought Ma Hunkel back with the dignity and warmth that the first female superheroine deserves. Ditto for Geoff Johns and his act of CPR on the JSA. And Geoff Johns with his...(alright, you get the picture; Geoff Johns loves comics history).

The Wolfman's comments in that interview were so cryptic that there's no sense worrying about it one way or the other. On the other hand, Wolfman has gone on record many times as stating that except for a few minor guys that ticked him off, he never wanted to kill or destroy anything with CRISIS, just do something a little slicker, a little more streamlined. It can be very easy to blame Wolfman; I, for instance, blame him for shortsightedness and incredible arrogance. But the fact is, CRISIS *may* have worked if everybody worked together, but instead what happened is HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE was invalid the moment it came out because all the writer/artists wanted to do their own thing, and screw the comics created by much more talented people.

I had the opportunity to read the interview with Wolfman after the CRISIS trade paperback (beautiful to look at; bright colors and George Perez art go together like bacon and eggs). It reads like any given interview with Robert MacNamara: it alternates between a feeling of proud blustering and refusal to apologize, with vaguely self-loathing comments that blame everybody else but himself for what happened.

Marv Wolfman would be a tragic figure, if it wasn't for the fact everything that happened is his own fault - the consequences of their own choices, like eliminating DC history.

Hmmm...good question. Was wondering what'll happen when Kal-L decides to look up his old buddies Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, etc. and (unless the above scenario comes to pass) they don't know him from Adam. Plus, wonder what Earth-Two's Lois would be up to/where she'd fit in in a post-Crisis world where she never existed ("never" had a career as a reporter or anything)? Maybe another "someone stays with the Kents in Smallville" bit, with the oddity that Earth-Two's Lois and Kal-L are probably older than the Kents by this point? Not to mention the Earth-Prime Superboy---a guy who would've spent most of his life viewing all of these guys as "fictional"...

My own feeling is that the end result will be the DC Universe heroes finally remember that once there were mutliple earths.  They will be unique in this, in that the general popular won't have this knowledge.
This will end all of the half hearted explanations as to why this character or that character doesn't fit in.  They will know that Power Girl is the Earth 2 duplicate of Supergirl and that the two can't touch one another or there will be serious consequences.
No multiple earths other than hypertime.  No characters will be merged, combined, or be eliminated.  Simple rules, being that alternates have to stay away from one another and that the general knowledge of the true history of the Universe is better off not being mentioned to the entire world.
Lex in Secret Society?  He's the silver age Lex.  He's somehow survived, possibly brought back by the Psycho Pirate.  Or maybe he was somehow outside of time/space and when he came back he found a very different universe, much like the Earth 2 Superman did when he discovered the merged earths.  
Sadly, I fear for the Earth 2 Superman, Lois and all the rest.  At the best they have to return to their pocket dimension.  But considering the way DC has been handling their universe, I suspect they will meet their end.
The post IC DC Universe will probably be darker and very similar to what Marvel is putting out today.

Great, two swirling blackholes of utter joylessness existing side by side sucking all light out of the universe.

I've seen uglier.  One of my fave "Crisis collage" images is from World's Funnest (Uncle Mxy linked to scans on another thread).  The last word in universal destruction, as far as I'm concerned.

World's Funnest also had the first (and best) Phantom Lady death scene, as seen at the follwing url:

http://www.randominformation.com/crack/24.jpg

Before Nightwing gets around to expounding on it (heh heh), what bothers me about IC in general and that #2 cover in particular is how this is so strongly tied to both the original Crisis and having to know the history behind that vast collage of images.  You practically need to have a doctorate in comics history to actually get what that collage means in terms of DCU history.  The new reader can't possibly get all those references which is an integral part of being able to comprehend the full import of that cover.

IOW, IC fails for accessibility.

This series doesn't draw in new readers but just mines the existing collection of fans.

I disagree.  One of the reasons that the Silver Age succeeded was that the DC universe was so vast and complex that people couldn't help but be drawn in.  They were excited by it.  They loved learning more about it and researching it.  The readers gobbled up the new stories, but they also gobbled up the many reprints that happened to explain the back-story to the new stories.

I think people like history in general.  Perhaps DC is seeing the failure of their prior "simplification" effort and so they are now taking the opposite approach - which has been a proven money maker and excitement generator.  Instead of just reading IC, the new reader will also read all the new Golden Age and Silver Age reprints, plus all the "Crisis" TPBs (including "Crisis on Infinite Earths") in order to learn all they can about what's going on.

Old fans happy - new fans happy - DC sells many comics - everybody happy. :)

:s:

One can only hope, O Glorious One.

Well put, Great Rao. The DC Universe before Crisis was so full of wonderful concepts and deep history that one couldn't help but be drawn in. If new fans see all this, ideally, it will arouse curiosity and a desire to know more. They'll only be turned off if the story doesn't catch attention to begin with.

Although, God, I *really* wish if they were going to mine comics lore, they would have gone for something a little better than the original CRISIS. Aimed a little higher, as it were.

Now, here's something about the Earth-Prime Superboy being back in action that Johnny Nevada brought up, which gets one excited about the entire possibility of the series: if Superboy read the DC Universe as fictional in his earth, is it possible he knows all the secrets of the heroes? Their secret identities, and so forth? And further, he knows things even they don't know, like for example, he recalls from the comics he read incidences where the entire DC Universe had their minds erased (I can't think of any offhand, but there have to be stories where heroes had their minds erased of the events afterward - possibly because they had dangerous knowledge, knowledge that Earth-Prime Superboy may know, to the delight of villains with mind-reading machines).

If they want to bring back memory of the old school DC universe, with Earth-Prime Superboy, they sure picked a good place to start.

Maybe - MAYBE - if they don't want to have Superboy know everything there is to know, the writers can create the possibility that the comics that Superboy read diverged from the real world - perhaps Katana, for example, in the comics that he's read, was blonde and Midwestern, instead of Japanese.

Here's something to bake our noodles: did Superboy actually read the COMICS of Crisis - as the Crisis was happening? There was a point he left to the other earths, certainly, but up until that point, he may be one of the best witnesses on this event. On Earth-Prime, is it possible Superboy-Prime confronted Marv Wolfman, maybe rough him up a little, because Superboy knows what his pen is doing? Hee hee!

JulianPerez, you might want to take a look at my post way back on June 16, 2004 (and I've voiced similar thoughts on the DC Message Boards even before this):

http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=924

Superboy-Prime actually has some fascinating possibilities.  First, his personality is significantly different due to his upbringing -- ESPECIALLY his unique experience of growing up in a world where nearly EVERYONE knows that "Clark Kent = Superman".  Clark could have been justifiably resentful of his "fictional" namesake, but instead of rebelling he went along with the laughs.  From DCCP #87 we can see that Clark was somewhat of a "class clown".  

But the destruction of Earth-Prime devastated poor Clark. Remember, his heroic stand with Kal-L against the Anti-Monitor was a suicidal act of despair -- he didn't have anything to go back to "over there", so why not stay and fight? One hopes by now Superboy-Prime has learned to deal with this grief, but it would be an interesting character aspect if his normally-enthusiastic and upbeat nature is shadowed by lingering guilt for not saving his world, the Kents, his girlfriend, etc.

Young Clark grew up during the 1970s and early 80s in New England, possibly Hampton or nearby Hampton Beach, New Hampshire. Jerome Kent had a home electronics and computer business, while Naomi Kent was an attorney.  Apparently he also went to a private school.  Compare that to Superman's small town upbringing by Ma and Pa Kent.  Perhaps Prime would have a more "Eastern Liberal" vs. "Middle-America" political outlook?  What other social influences might shape him differently?

Powerwise, it's hinted that Superboy-Prime might be "in-between" the Earth-1 and Byrne reboot Supermen. His powers arrived when he was 16, unlike the Silver Age Superbaby who immediately exhibited superpowers upon arrival on Earth or the Post-Reboot Superman who never was a Superboy (though Prime's powers might have been triggered early by the Crisis). While we don't know if Superboy-Prime would have eventually rivalled the Earth-1 Superman's power, he had one distinct advantage -- his powers weren't immediately affected by red solar radiation. It's unclear whether Superboy-Prime could function indefinitely under a red sun, or if he was running off his "solar battery" like the Byrne Superman, but Superboy-Prime had a lot of potential. (I can accept sacrificing some overall power for greater versatility.)  Plus, since he was an avid reader of Superman comics, he already had a pretty good idea on how to use his powers!  :wink:

We can assume post-Crisis Kryptonite wouldn't affect Superboy-Prime, since the Byrne Superman was similarly immune to the Pocket Universe variety. So if the new Post-Birthright multi-colored Kryptonite doesn't phase Prime, then he's ONLY subceptible to magic and mind-control.

As for his knowledge of DC heroes -- we can see from DCCP #87 that he was VERY familiar with Superboy/Superman stories, and knew Hal Jordan was a test pilot.  Also, since Crisis #7 was apparently released in early July, 1985 (despite the October cover date), Superboy-Prime would have just read it before gaining his powers.  No wonder he thought Kara's death was an "Imaginary Story" -- he started reading about the Crisis MONTHS before it ACTUALLY BEGAN!   :shock:

Granted, he wouldn't know anything about Post-Crisis characters.  ("Jason's dead?  I barely got to know him... who's Robin now, and where's Barbara?")  And there's a lot that's been completely altered -- thank Rao he doesn't have to convince Power Girl to drop all that Atlantean origin nonsense now.   :wink:   But that still gives Superboy-Prime a LOT of "inside information", and he's bright enough to investigate and figure out anything he doesn't know.  

For all these reasons, I really like Superboy-Prime.  I just hope DC does him justice, and DOESN'T kill him off simply to "shock" Conner Kent into becoming a "true" Superboy.  I would rather have Prime stay in the Paradise Dimension indefinitely rather than have THAT happen... and I still fear DC will do just that.   :(

Ah, thank you, DTO, nice to see you were thinking along the same lines that I was. I hope the DC people see the potential in this character that we fans do.



This is a very interesting way that his characterization can be altered as a result of what has happened to him; in fact, if Superboy-Prime was as chipper as ever despite what we last saw in Crisis - his despair - that would be unsatisfactory to the character.



Interesting point: Superboy can have a very different outlook from the other Supermen which makes him distinctive, and which makes him worth keeping because he isn't a redundancy. He's from New England, eh? Well, why not have a Superboy-Prime from Texas and from Appalachia, and we've have the Lieutenant Superboys?  :D

Though I don't know if I'd characterize Superman as "middle America;" that "Forrest Gump" characterization, especially lousy in the recent BATMAN/SUPERMAN series where he talks about "the corn fields" and "Well, Poppa always said..." always felt innappropriate for Superman.

Since it's Halloween and all, here is a new interview with the Howling about Crisis:

http://www.newsarama.com/images/interviews/2005/wolfman/WolfmanCatchup.htm

It's scary stuff kiddies, so don't come crying to me if you get nightmares.

Yeah...and whose fault was THAT, Marv? Was it just me, or around that time was every single DC title written by either you, or Gerry Conway?



Actually, this is kind of true; I've spoken to many people that refused to collect DC comics before CRISIS. Crisis, for all its many, MANY faults of shortsightedness, contempt for the past, and crass egomania, did give DC a new image. My question is, though, did they have to drastically affect everything so catastrophically, in a way to eliminate future story potential? Just because the writers can't think of a story involving Earth-X or Kid Psycho doesn't mean that future writers won't.



Well, as much as I love and miss Barry, I'd have to say this is true. Why is it that eventually, Hal came back but nobody has thought to bring back the Silver Age Flash?

Two reasons:

1) The Flash was dead, but the Flash's world was intact (the Pied Piper, Captain Cold, etc.), and thanks to CRISIS, they now had the Earth-2 Flash's plot elements (the Thinker, Keystone City) to mess around with.

2) Bill Messner-Loebs, Baron, and Guice were able to make Wally unique, likeable, and three-dimensional, strong and weak at the same time - heroic and principled but at the same time ruled by hormones with a chipper sense of humor, a worthy character that is equally interesting as the character he replaced. On the other hand, nothing that Marz did was equal in imagination to the concepts he destroyed. This was not true of Kyle (ecch), who was constantly characterized as the "rookie" in JLA. Why? Because they had really, no other personality to give him! Concepts were destroyed, but nothing equal in imagination was created to replace them.

And so, this is why Wally (despite Mark Waid's best efforts) is still around.



"Hear that, everybody? It wasn't me!"

A decision YOU participated in, Marv. Don't try to pass the buck when the next guy is yourself.



Wow, check out the sour grapes here. "Okay, yeah, I will freely admit I deprived the Legion of Super-Heroes of their reason to exist, but that's okay, because the Legion wasn't that great anyway."

I really, really wish I could send a slap through the internet.



A belief I share; Marv Wolfman did give us the gift of the Asian female Dr. Light, an interesting character that was never written to her full potential.

Didn't Julie Schwartz say that all the females in the DC Universe were either Italian or Jewish? (A view supported by the fact that Julie's wife's name is "Jean," like the good Ms. Loring.)

So that was Marv Wolfman's big, revolutionary idea:  That the heroes were even more angst-ridden and incompetent than he'd already made them out to be, with more failures under their belts.

I remember when he was in charge of the short-lived Disney Comics (which Disney formed a long time ago when they revoked the license for their characters from Gladstone Comics).  Marv turned Mickey Mouse into a costumed super-hero who, unsurprisingly, was angst-ridden and failure prone, going up against impossibly powered super-villains who's sole motivation was to make the "hero's" life as miserable as possible.

Somehow I'm not surprised that experiment didn't last long...

:s:

He sure is a one trick pony, it worked on Teen Titians however, but that's about it.

Sadly, there are lots of DC writers who try to copy his style, and badly at that, which is pretty scary stuff, if you think about it.

My favorite bit from:

http://www.newsarama.com/images/interviews/2005/wolfman/WolfmanCatchup.htm


Wolfman still doesn't get the problem!   You don't do a reboot without planning this stuff out!  You can't disassociate the two!

<grumble grumble>

In all fairness to Marv, I think there is some truth to what he says here.  Many people forget that Crisis wasn't the reboot - it was hitting the "off" button.  The "on" cycle came later.  And Marv wasn't the editor/decision maker as to what would come next - he was just a writer hired to destroy the multiverse.

If there was no planning as to the next step, I don't think that was his fault.

:s:

Actually, he's done his share of the lighter stuff -- like Nova for Marvel, and Dial H For Hero for DC. Both pretty forgettable, but not at all angsty.

CoIE was about creating one universe from the multiverse, not just killing the multiverse.  IIRC, the initial intent was for there to be a total reboot of the entire DCU, to start fresh while noting history (paying a guy to read every DC publication and take notes -- talk about a dream job for a comic geek).  But The Powers That Be thought CoIE wouldn't be meaningful if the universe rebooted and there weren't real consequences, like Supergirl dying.  Then, they swung the other way, permitting decisions to screw those consequences up (partial reboots and Supergirl never having been born).  CoIE never fully hit the "off" button, and that was its problem.

DC's grand strategy back then was three-part, according to Dick Giordano:

Crisis on Infinite Earths (Marv Wolfman)

DC Who's Who (various authors)

History of the DC Universe (Marv Wolfman)

Those three publications were supposed to be the foundation of the new DCU.  The fact that the creative teams went all over the map to defy that new foundation is more a failure of editorial control than anything Marv did.

I confess to having a hard time disassociating Wolfman from the mess, since he went straight from CoIE to the Superman creative team, reinventing Lex Luthor as Kingpin-lite.

Marv is complicit, and he will get the guillotine when our Revolution Supreme happens...

 :twisted:

(Sorry, taught about the French Revolution this week...)

ok enough of the big bad wolf, he is really a non-factor these days...

NOW...

For anyone who wanted to know DC's direction after Crisis, ...

Official Press Release

Dan DiDio has been promoted to Senior Vice President - Executive Editor, DC Universe, it was announced today by Paul Levitz, DC Comics President & Publisher. DiDio will continue to report directly to Levitz.

DiDio, who joined DC Comics in January 2002 as Vice President - Editorial, oversees the editorial department for the DC Universe imprint. As the DC Universe Executive Editor, DiDio charts the ongoing adventures of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and scores of heroes and villains; he also works to develop new titles with the industry's premier writers and artists.

"Dan has done an impressive job of bringing his personal energy and enthusiasm to the DC Universe, which has never been a more exciting destination for our readers," said Levitz. "Dan is leading a stellar line-up of creative talent in guiding the greatest collection of characters in popular culture, and I can't wait to see what they come up with next."

Before joining DC, DiDio was with the computer animation company Mainframe Entertainment where he served as freelance story editor and scriptwriter for the television series Reboot and War Planets. Later he became its Senior Vice President, Creative Affairs, overseeing the development, distribution, marketing, and promotion as well as merchandising and licensing of all Mainframe's television properties. Among the television projects he developed were Weird-Ohs, Beast Machines, Black Bull's Gatecrasher and Jill Thompson's Scary Godmother. He began his television career in 1981 at CBS, where he worked at a variety of positions before moving to Capital Cities/ABC in 1985. At ABC, DiDio served as Public Relations Manager for the three New York-based daytime dramas, then moved to Los Angeles to become Executive Director of Children's Programming. In this post, he was responsible for Saturday morning programs and After School Specials and served as Program Executive on such series as Tales from the Cryptkeeper, Hypernauts, Madeline, Dumb and Dumber, and Reboot.

At DC Comics, DiDio has spearheaded such bestselling projects as ALL STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN, THE BOY WONDER, IDENTITY CRISIS, GREEN LANTERN, TEEN TITANS and OUTSIDERS.



Back to me,

all I have to say is well old school video game star Q*Bert said it best when he said:

“@!#?@!”

That Press Release reads like something targeted to potential investors or buyers or something.  Like they're trying to get a stock price to go up.

Interesting that All-Star Superman wasn't even mentioned.

:s:

Wasn't there a Dilbert joke somewhere that the most incompetent people are placed into positions where they can do the least damage - namely, Management?

I'm thinking of that Dilbert joke right now.  :twisted:

Anyway, I seriously hope this Didio's big claim to fame isn't having the idea for ALL STAR BATMAN. That's like topping your resume with "Project Director, Challenger Mission."

And I wouldn't brag about working at CBS in the 1990s, either. Ever since they dropped PEE-WEE's PLAYHOUSE it was all downhill. Every kid I knew avoided the CBS lineup like the plague, except for CBS STORYBREAK with Malcolm Jamal-Warner, and that was only because Fox Kids showed SOUL TRAIN at around the same time. It really says something that they won NINJA TURTLES for two seasons, and STILL no kid would watch their network. Their choices can be traced back to committing the two great sins of children's programming:

1) Saturday morning cartoons based on movies usually stink. Remember BACK TO THE FUTURE: THE SERIES, or BILL AND TED'S MOST EXCELLENT ADVENTURES? I mean, if a Cookie Crisp promotional tie-in can't save you, you might as well throw in the towel. This is especially true of any cartoon show based on a movie that Jim Carrey was in: hear that, DUMB AND DUMBER, THE MASK, and ACE VENTURA: PET DETECTIVE? Unsurprisingly, CBS had at least two of those three.

2) Kids hate to learn. Okay, yeah, MAGIC SCHOOL BUS had its moments, but if you've ever watched MYTHIC WARRIORS or anything on PBS aimed at kids 10 years or older for any reason other than a broken channel switch, you're almost assuredly a friendless nebbish. The exception to this is CAPTAIN PLANET, because while most kids probably won't understand the subtext, they can nonetheless detect that this show is ticked off and has an edge, an axe to grind.

Incidentally, thanks to Dan Didio, I won dinner at a cute little Cuban place from a friend. I wagered that Hal Jordan would be back in three years, once DC's management was shaken up and a new guy came to the fore. Why? The only reason the administration kept Hal dead and allowed Ron Marz to criminally misrule the Lantern titles was because bringing Hal back would mean the editors admitting that they had made a mistake. It's like the comic book equivalent of Perestroika and Detente; you'll only get it when the hardliners quietly disappear and new guys come in without any baggage and investment in unsuccessful policies.

Hmm... I liked the "Back to the Future" and "Bill & Ted" cartoons, though I also was a fan of their respective movies (and was a teenager at the time they aired, vs. a kid who wouldn't have gotten the George Carlin reference or two they threw in on the latter show...).



Eh... think kids might like some educational-ish stuff on TV, but only if it's done well. Or entertainment shows with semi-educational tidbits thrown in (such as some of the songs on "Animaniacs")...

... man, I'm darn well excited about this idea. The first superhero, voluntarily leaving his 'paradise' in a time of widespread death, destruction and distrust to set the heroes of the DCU on the right track? Could turn out fantastic...  :D

Me too. It's hard to mess up with using a guy like Kal-L, provided that you write him correctly.

This brings up an interesting point: Kal-L is visibly responding to the innappropriately dismal trends that have made the DCU very different in recent times; the rift between Batman and Superman, the JLA brainwashing people Doc Savage-style, the united villains, and so on. If they're bringing him back in a big way so he can fix things, there's no way the outcome of this will be something untrue to the spirit of DC and superhero comics.



Hey, I'm not saying that - I  used to be a big fan of 3-2-1 CONTACT and MYTHQUEST, but where CBS made their mistake is turning their lineup over to educational programming that didn't have the sugar of funny stuff or cartoon animals to make the medicine go down. Though, hey: I can never bring myself to say anything bad about PEE WEE'S PLAYHOUSE. We only get a genius like Ruebens once a generation.

Actually kids love to learn.  Otherwise they would not always be asking questions.  Too often "written for children" means written down to children.  Nobody likes to be condescended or "talked down" to.  And children can usually notice pdq when they are being condescended to.  Thank Rao for the fact that "Captain Planet" is in the "dustbin of history".  It was little more than socialist propaganda.  


       So far Infinite Crisis looks like it might be good.  Kind of cool to see Kal-L again.  Hopefully the rest of the story (& its aftereffects) is good, if not great.  We will see.

:D  And what's wrong with socialist propoganda?

Actually, I loved Captain Planet as a kid. I didn't know what "flaming homosexual environmentalist" meant at the time...I just knew that the bad greedy people were trying to pollute the earth, and that they were bad.

Felt bad for the guy whose power ring only let him talk to monkeys though.

Yeah, screw the Earth!

All hail pollution!

no wait..

anyway, I thought it was a good show as a kid, a bit preachy though ;)

http://www.turner.com/planet/

"Captain Planet" suffered from a host of villians that for the most part belonged in straitjackets in the cell next to the Joker; of the bunch only Sludge, Greedly,  and Plunder had anything remotely like 'realistic' motives. It had all the bad aspects of the Silver Age Superman stories with none of the good aspects.

Provided you write him correctly. Provided you write him with the very spirit you're talking about in mind. Has this regime done anything to prove that they know or care about such a spirit?

Seems to me that if this regimes track record is any indication, they're setting Kal-L up just to knock him down.

Actually, YES, now that you mention it, Kuuga: the return of the Hal Jordan Green Lantern, Geoff Johns' impressive work on series like JSA (everything except his dumb snoozefest SUPERMAN/BATMAN), Power Girl's origin making sense, the return of the Silver Age Luthor, three fun miniseries: RANN/THANAGAR WAR (featuring an enjoyable stories making use of Silver Age great Captain Comet and all those fabulous enemies) the VILLAINS UNITED series (making wonderful use of Catman - if only EVERY superhero was as cool as he was!).



In the words of Leonard Nimoy's IN SEARCH OF...  series: "that's a possibility, but not necessarily the only one." Geoff Johns is a much more talented man than Marv Wolfman is. A DC Universe created by Johns would - provided with the same level of ability and concientiousness as his "Return of Hawkman" (which made Hawkman make sense again) - make a DC Universe that makes more sense.

While I'm on record for accusing Johns of being overrated, I do agree with Julian, mostly, about Geoff being better for restoring the quality of the DCU.

I restrict that agreement to theme, characterization, and story elements.  Even on characterization, he does fumble sometimes (e.g. Guy Gardner in Rebirth; fortunately, Recharge seems to have Johns scripting a more accurate Guy).

On matters of comics pseudo-science and just plain consistency for super-powers explanations, Geoff Johns is pathetic.  In this regard, Johns would be best advised to not touch those aspects at all but to seek the consultation of superior talents in this area.

While I think Byrne does more harm than good, one area that he does excel at is in novel and consistent super-powers explanations and comics pseudo-science.

My ideal mix would be Johns handling the stories and characterization while he gets consultation from Byrne on technical matters. (Yeah, if we could only get Byrne to restrict his 'input' to this and this alone.)

LOL!

>>flaming homosexual environmentalist

Hmm... I'm gay and think the environment's important. Nothing "flaming" about me, though. :-)




The show had its moments, but was rather preachy/cheesy (recall the episode re:drug abuse that my sister and I found funny for how bad some of the dialog was)...

I agree with this statement. Geoff Johns has overall, had a positive effect on the DCU; hiring him was the best thing DC agreed to do since they let Kurt Busiek write JLA. However, some things he's done have hardly made him the pinnacle of achievement many point him out to be; it's wise to look elsewhere if looking for a savior figure, like maybe Alan Brennert or Steve Englehart, or Kurt Busiek, or heck - even Roy Thomas.

I mean, for example, the goofy story where Atom Smasher becomes a results-oriented "modern" hero with his evil Jimminy Cricket, Black Adam, and the real JSA shows up to beat them up; this is yet another "Silver Age gets revenge" story, and using a cheesy cliche tale is beneath Johns.



What would you point to as being a particularly eggregious example of this sort of pattern by Geoff Johns?



I liked several things about CAPTAIN PLANET. Usually, when they had a team of heroes from all over the world, the American is usually this muscular, blonde, four corner buzzcut-haired jarhead that says stuff like, "alright team, let's move OUT!" and "You'll NEVER get away with it, Doctor Velcrolord!"

The American on CP was just another one of the characters.

Wheeler was stupid, to be sure, but he was stupid with a purpose, as opposed to characters like - for instance - Snarf from the THUNDERCATS or the Wonder Twins, or Scrappy-Doo or Jar-Jar, who are stupid yet serve no purpose whatsoever. At the end, Wheeler says something like, "gee, guys, I didn't realize how hard it really IS for homeless people in a big city. Thanks for showing me the way!"

It should be noted, however, that CAPTAIN PLANET had absolutely nothing on SAVED BY THE BELL. :D

How about his lame 'heat vision is waste product of processed yellow solar radiation' bit?  Last time I checked, nobody's eyes are a waste disposal system.  In that same issue, he had Kal teach Jor to reset his telescopic vision by 'blinking hard'.  Or how Superman told Jor-El to 'shoot his eyes forwards' to activate his telescopic vision? Huh?  It's just an amplification of normal distance vision so it should be controlled the same way: By just instinctively thinking about it to refocus like normal sight.  I was half-expecting Johns to declare Superman activated his strength by tapping his right bicep three times.  It would be in the exact same wrong-headed spirit.

How about Rebirth where he declares an 'emotional EM spectrum' and green is for the 'will power' spectrum?  Excuse me, but will power isn't an emotion but the appropriate one here should be 'courage'.  And how does Sinestro -- or at another time, Guy -- use a yellow ring tuned to the 'fear' spectrum if it's fueled by fear and not related to will power at all?  It just doesn't work.  How about the purple spectrum power of the Zamarons or the red based powers of the Controllers where will power clearly is a factor too?  So, two boners here: will power isn't an emotion nor the appropriate one for green, and his concept fails on further examination when it comes to other spectra and will power (even in that very series re: Sinestro!).

Ouch! Yeah, I remember that being particularly goofy at the time. Does that mean Superman melts a rock instead of using the Men's Room? It's like something out of a MAD MAGAZINE parody.

SUPERMAN: "Could you excuse me, fellow Justice Leaguers? I have to go melt the rock."

ELONGATED MAN: "Now there's a euphemism I haven't heard before..."



So, apparently, Green Lantern jewelry are basically, mood rings?

According to mine, "Green" is not "willpower" but is in fact, "mildly agitated." :D

Yeah, I can see why Geoff Johns' power concepts ought to be just sort of glossed over by comics history. Though about Byrne having the right idea about powers...well, I'd have tons of great ideas too, if I stole them from Alan Moore.  :wink:

Byrne didn't crib from Moore for everything.

His take on the Metal Men in Action Comics using microscopic responsometers (instead of huge things that couldn't possibly change shape like the robots were shown doing) controlling metal-emulating polymer bodies was actually pretty good.  It did explain how the responsometers weren't affected by shape-changing and why the robots didn't accurately duplicate the properties of the metals they were supposedly made of (i.e. Tin is actually one of the stronger metals).

It's not Byrne's fault that someone else turned the Metal Men from robotic heroes to humans trapped in robot bodies thus destroying the core concepts of the Metal Men and contradicting much of their history.

But, he is also the idiot who claimed that the Metal Men were not made of ..sigh.. Metal, no seriously, that actually happen.

I originally didn't like that AC Metal Men idea though the idea appealed more to me in hindsight.

I've also said Byrne is incapable of discerning the rare gems of his ideas from the plethora of crap he spews out.  What he needs is an editor with the nerve to stand up and say 'no' to Johnny when he crosses the line, and to make sure his stories make consistent sense.  If good editing came into the picture, the polymer idea might have been used in a more appropriate way, perhaps on another character where it fit better.

So, the idea is great though Byrne's execution is flawed -- as per usual with Unca Johnny.

Byrne laid the ground work for the "Metal Men are actually human beings trapped in robot bodies" in his Superman/Metal Men team up in Action Comics.
I really do wish that DC comics would just junk that entire mini-series and go back to the basics with the Metal Men, but obviously that's never going to happen.

That secret level/chamber was all Byrne introduced in AC.  I know he didn't write that drek series later.  Unless you know something I don't about Byrne being the actual creative motivator on a stupid series that he didn't script himself, I wouldn't lay this at the feet of Unca Johnny.

Byrne has enough sins to atone for without us blaming him for ones that aren't his.

I still think Byrne would be a good technical advisor to Johns.

OTOH, it may be they couldn't collaborate well.  Byrne's ego would not let him stop at technical matters.  I have no idea how Johns takes input so that's a big unknown.

Hey, I think my comics shop is going to get IC #2 this week. :D

enough about him, maybe we should ban the word Bryne, anyway, this will be the last day for this thread.

It shall be close after today and another shall open in its place to discuss issue #2, which shall be released tommorrow.

Well how about a seperate forum for the Post-Crisis Supes? ...and Infinite Crisis #2, can't wait! (Especially after seeing the cover of Power Girl looking up at events spanning the length of DCU history, right in front of her!)  :shock:

Not a chance! The only reason this thread exist is because of it's connection to pre-crisis. If you want to talk post-crisis supes, just head on down to DC's boards, Superman Homepage's boards or any of the countless Post-Crisis Superman boards. If you want to talk about the real Superman, we only have this board, so I want to protect that. I do not want a army of iron age fans coming over here.



I look forward to reading... reviews on-line about it ;)

Like I said before, I am playing a wait and see game with DC, since I don't want to waste money on something that is just going to kill off the remaining pre-crisis heroes.

I don't anticipate DC waking up and smelling the coffee, either. Their best stuff of late (Trinity, New Frontier, Child of Dreams) has either been neglected, excoriated by the Iron Age majority, or both. There's a reason why Frank Miller keeps being allowed to take a pickaxe to the character he destroyed in 1986 while guys like Matt Wagner, Darwyn Cooke, and Kia Asamiya get shoved aside or get no support...Miller's garbage still sells like hotcakes. The fandom still wants to wallow in the muck and mire. Why should DC upset the apple cart when it can make money churning out the worst possible stuff around?

I do admit to buying IC #1, only because of the final page where E-2 Superman decides he's had enough of the current DCU. If it hadn't been for that, I wouldn't have given the book a second thought. However, I do agree that the chances of him dying are pretty high. Aside from Green Lantern, DC seems to be deathly afraid of writing about heroes, and for the most part stories about heroes get ignored or thrown to the Iron Age wolves. Granted, guys like Wagner have spoken out against this kind of thing, and Mike Allred's Solo issue boasted a terrific Batman story that exposed Miller's nihilistic worldview for exactly what it is. But how much power do they really have? Wagner and Allred have already been condemned by the Iron Age fanboys for various reasons, and as time has shown, Waid and Morrison don't have a whole lot of pull at DC (their Superman material has been subject to corporate interference). Everyone can talk big about how they're going to restore the heroes back to glory, make Superman an inspiration, and get rid of Batman's psycho terrorist bad attitude, but if the execs decide it won't sell, all that talk is for naught. And judging from the success of All-Star Batman and Miller's plans for more Batman projects, there's no way DC's going to turn around and decide Kane and Finger's Batman is the better option. What we're getting right now is exactly the way it's going to stay.

The nice thing is, the archives, reprints, and Showcase collections are there to fill the void. So it's not like there's nothing to turn to.

And yet the New Fronteir winds bushel loads of awards...
man I love that book!

it's great, but the time has come for this thread to close, but a new one shall be born in it's place.