Superman Through the Ages! Forum

While it's superficially admirable that they added Tyroc to the Legion to break the Causasion mold of the group, his costume and power does disturb me as being a tad racist.

I mean, his costume was white, what little there was of it, to contrast with his black skin to further emphasize how 'black' this super-hero was.  His own skin seemed to serve as half his costume which is wrong-headed in my eyes no matter what (I have the same problem with J'Onn J'Onzz's nothing costume).

His super-voice power seems to be a veiled perception of blacks wanting to change the world by just making a lot of noise.

Don't get me started about how the second Invisible Kid's power let's him stay out of sight so his race doesn't show or how John Henry Iron's armour completely covers his black skin.

I don't know, a stereotype to be sure, but I don't think they were trying to be racist on purpose.

Here is an African-American POV on Tyroc:

http://www.blacksuperhero.com/exhibithtml/detail.cfm?id=91

Speaking of characters that show their skin in order to emphasize their ethnicity to offset the sinister overtones of an all white superteam, remember that period when Black Panther wore a Batman-style cowl that showed his jaw? Or when he was known as "Black Leopard," to avoid affiliation with the controversial political group, that probably made the limousine liberals over at the House of Ideas "very uncomfortable?"



It works for Hawkman, I'm sure, at least when he's drawn by somebody like Carmine Infantino with a good grasp of anatomy.



You got that right. And look at his island: an alienated, isolated society of all blacks (wearing afros, naturally, whose every building looks like a disco) who shoo out the Legionnaires for "just trying to help." It's the ultimate showcase for the anxiety of shallow progressives, who like black people in theory, but say things like "why can't they all be like that nice Bill Cosby fellow?" These types are just as racist as the people actively keeping blacks down, because a desire for black power and black seperatism from society to develop their own neighborhoods (and owning guns to keep The Man out), they find annoying and anxiety-inducing, because it involves blacks having authority and command of their destiny in a means other than a federal uplifting imposed from the outside by northern whites.

That's the political overtones of Tyroc. The political overtones of the Duo Damsel/Bouncing Boy backup story in that issue, on the other hand...don't mess with fat people on a tennis court.  :D



Here's something to bake your noodle: the Fantastic Four. The only female member of the team...is invisible.

Interesting take on Invisible Woman/Girl.  I also agree concerning Tyroc's power.  As for the costume, I think that was more typical of Mike Grell's costume designs.  His redesigned Cosmic Boy and Colossal Boy costumes also bared more skins--especially Cosmic Boy's.  
Tyroc wasn't thought out all that much, and it wasn't a surprise that when Cary Bates left the Legion Tyroc was eliminated as well.  Kind of like how Julius Schwartz eliminated J'onn J'onzz from Justice League after his series in House of Mystery ended.

While the MM has never been able to sustain his own book and his chief popularity and claim to fame is being associated with the JLA, IMHO his being dropped from the JLA back then had more to do with the harsh reality of Mars being discovered to be probably lifeless.

Krypton is/was possible since it's impossible to prove a Krypton couldn't have existed.

Mars is too easy to prove whether it sustained life -- or a civilization -- or not.

Actually J'onzz's elimination from JLA was prior to the Mars probe landing on the Red Planet.  And even before that J'onzz hadn't appeared in Justice League for many months.
I believe his dropping was done as was done with many characters who had lost their strips.  DC's policy at that time was to almost act as if the characters didn't exist anymore.  J'onzz was placed in JLA because he had a current strip running at the time.  His strip wasn't a Schwartz edited book.  When it was dropped, I suspect Schwartz didn't care for the character and stopped using him.  It was only after getting a number of fan letters asking where J'onzz was that Schwartz got Denny O'Neil to write a story using him--a tale which eliminated J'onzz from the JLA.  Occasionally J'onzz reappeared but basically I think this was just to help maintain the companies copyright on him.  It wasn't until many, many years later that J'onzz returned to JLA and remained there.  True, Schwartz was very science oriented and possibly J'onzz existance bothered him and that may have led to his removal from JLA.  Much the same as how Schwartz eventually had a writer explain that all the "Atomic Knights" stories were just fantasies Gardner Grayle had in an advanced sensory deprivation tank because modern day science knows mankind couldn't survive a full scale atomic war.

That may be PART of the reasoning; I suspect the major one is that the Martian Manhunter was a "demi-superhero" that was a mixture of science fiction and superheroism, and such characters did not outlast the decade they were created to be a part of. They were a fad that came and went with fins on cars and the hula hoop. I mean "fad" in the sense they had transitory relevance to pop culture. Captain Comet for instance, the Martian Manhunter's brother in arms, hasn't seen the light of day since Conway used him in SECRET SOCIETY OF SUPER-VILLAINS aaaaaall the way back in 1976 (his appearance in the recent RANN/THANAGAR WAR was very refreshing and welcome). Martian Manhunter's day came and went with Sputnik, which is why his HOUSE OF SECRETS backup story was a spy series instead of having John Jones doing his Superman-clone thing.



It's unfortunate that Schwartz made that decision. Atomic Knights was an interesting science fiction comic with tons of great creatures and battles - and who doesn't get enough of those neat Atomic Knight suits of armor? Me, I love these five or six person teams that consist of five guys and one girl that's secretly in love with the handsome, rugged leader. Some things work according to formula, and some things fail by formula, and Atomic Knights worked according to formula.

Though like many other series that go on for long enough, Atomic Knights "jumped the shark." For me, the exact moment was when it was discovered that a race of molemen had been the ones responsible for the atomic war that destroyed mankind. That eliminates the greatest part of the tragedy of the war: that mankind has very real culpability for its sorry state.

I agree totally.  That single story really ruined a lot of what the Atomic Knights was all about.  Originally it was mankind itself which started the Atomic War and brought about all the destruction.  The Knights stories were about mankind recovering and trying to build something better--and perhaps learning a lesson, too.  Instead, we were told it was all outsiders fault.  
Another stated reason for the demise of the Knights from continuity was that it was getting closer to the Knights time period, I believe was 1986.    I'm not exactly certain I buy all of this.  I think if Schwartz wanted to he could have easily allowed a writer to move ahead the date and change the method of destruction to Neutron weaponry rather than Atomic, with some conventional bombs thrown in the describe the building destruction.  I rather think that Schwartz got talked into the story by the writer of DC Comics Presents, who wanted to preach his own views on warfare and that the emphasis should be on preventing nuclear wars rather than surviving/recovering from them.

Well, the Atomic Knights stories did take place in their own reality.  It's just that in the mainstream DCU timeline that reality was only perceived in Grayle's mental simulations.

The joy of Hypertime means in some Hypertimeline the AK stories took place in 'reality' -- such as it is.

In another sense, the Knights predated the rampant shared universe concept so no reason exists to make it mandatory they exist alongside Superman in the 'real' DCU.  I could live with them in a separate continuity like Atari Force or Camelot 3000.

I kind of miss the tales where every super-hero and/or book existed in their own fictional universe.  When the Earth needed saving in the Flash's book, the most that had to be accounted for were the whereabouts of Green Lantern, Kid Flash, and the Elongated Man.  Hawkman and Hawkgirl didn't have to account for any other super-heroes not saving the day.  And so on.

The shared universe concept is great in its own way but it does have its drawbacks.  The Atomic Knights were written not as part of the shared universe concept but as an independent concept.

It should be noted that Hypertime was reconned long ago.

So Hypertime doesn't exist in the DC Universe anymore.

Exactly what makes you believe it was retconned?

Certainly, Kon-El's Hypertension storyline is still in continuity.

The Elseworlds World's Funnest clearly uses the Hypertimelines in its own story and by implication all the Elseworlds exist in their own Hypertimelines (esp. given Hypertension above).

So is The Kingdom where Infinite Crisis picks up from with E-2 Superman finally breaking through to the current mainstream DCU.

If you mean it's been largely ignored, that's not a retcon.

That was the last time it was used, DC decided due to the negative feedback from Iron Age, that they would never use it again.

Speaking if Racist images, did you know that Johnny Redbeard was everything that has been posted here and a racist too? I bet none of you are shocked to hear that one. Since he has said pently of racist things before on his site.

See the original art work for X-Men 116, note the racist joke that was made by John for Austin, for print it was covered by a barcode.

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=113192&GSub=16862

Well, they said they'd keep Hal and Kara dead and they recanted.  They said they'd never bring back the GLC and they brought them back too.

I'd wait and see what Johns does with IC which clearly is tied to The Kingdom if only for that breaking through carryover.

They didn't retcon those stories.  They're still in continuity.  Hey, that JLA Annual with Moon Maiden also referenced Hypertime so that's also another example.

That's a lot of stories for an idea that someone claims DC isn't going to use anymore.

And the fact that they're acknowledging a multiverse of some kind again is just a different flavour of the same deal.  If the multiverse is being acknowledged again, then the Atomic Knights, etc. still exist in their own DC realities.

It is certainly within the realm of possibility.

I did suspect that given how he seemed to shove John Stewart out of the picture in his AC Superman/GLC team-up.

OTOH, wasn't he part of that gawdawful 'Storm'n'Kitty' fest the X-Men had back in the 1980s?  Boosting Storm isn't very racist, if he's part of that.

I sincerely hope this isn't true; having Kathy Kane show up in a Bat-book made my day. Unlike other historical plot elements, she barely shows up in ELSEWORLDS.

Alan Moore is a really big fan of Kathy Kane; for instance, he mentioned Batman was married to her in the fantasy created by Mongul's Black Orchid (though really, IMHO, I think it ought to have been Silver St. Cloud, but that's no reflection on the neatness of this character). Also, in his TRIAL OF YOUNGBLOOD, he created a Kathy Kane pastiche character, "Lady Day."

It irks me that THE KINGDOM and its concepts are demonized by fans. KINGDOM COME suffered from all the plot holes, implausibility, and characterization lapses that its sequel had, except there was no Alex Ross art to make us forget. And at least THE KINGDOM gave us the gift of Hypertime. Want the Atomic Knights to appear in your story, but don't want to say they're the "real" future? Hypertime solved a great many problems and made a great many stories possible that its exclusion is tragic.

As for Byrne being a racist - well, maybe "racial chauvanist" is a better term. His lack of sympathy for the New Orleans victims shows his problem is more about CLASS than RACE.



Hopefully!

As noted, DC has reversed themselves a number of times.  They may be saying right now that they'll never use Hypertime again, but I would imagine that sooner or later another editor and writer will decide to revive the concept.

Racism , racism everywhere
And not a drop is real
To some there seems to be racism
In every single deal
but then you must recall,
the paper it is white,
and yet without the black words
a book would not be right


I know their is racism and tokenism but don't overthink it.
Shouting is not a black thing or a racist insult in Tyroc.
Black Canary is a blonde white woman who shouts.
Black Bolt is a white man with shouting/speaking powers of destruction.
Syrin, Banshee, Screaming Mimi, and others are all shout/sound powered comic characters who aren't black. so, no I don't think Tyroc's power was racist , just very cool.
His costume. I liked it.
Many black people wear white, even after Labor day. it's not racist.

Which heroes and villains that are black does anybody approve of?
Some say they are all racist portrayals.
To just name a few black comic characters:
1.Storm, Ororo Munroe: I love her , she's got class, even the movie one who seemed to young looking for the Storm I always imagined, still Halle Berry did a fine acting job in XMen 1, and 2
2.T'challa the Black Panther : one of my favorites from 1966.
3. Tyroc
4.Luke Cage , Power Man
5. War Machine/Iron Man: Jim Rhodes
6. Jack in the Box from Astro City
7. The first Captain America
8. The Falcon
9. Blade, Daywalker and the Vampire Hunter
10. Black Lightning
11. Black Vulcan of the Superfriends (ouch)
12. Amanda Waller
13. Amazing Man 1 &2
14.Bronze Tiger
15. Bloodwynd
16. Bloodsport
17.Black Manta
18. Black Racer
19. Stan Lee's Batman
20. Almagam's Amazon(Wonder Woman and Storm)
21.Bumblebee
22. Capt. Marvel from Elseworlds
23  Chunk
24. Steel
25. Crimson Avenger (the female one)
26 Dr Mist
27 Dr Mid-nite 2
28. Cyborg
29. Mal of the Teen Titans
30.Fatality
31 the new Firestorm
32. John Stewart, Green Lantern
33. Jake Jordon the new Guardian
34. Freedom Beast/Bwana Beast
35. Brother Voodoo
36. JJ Thunder
37. Josiah Power of the Power Company
38. Joto of the Teen Titans
39 Kid Quantum
40. Mister Miracle 3
41. Mr Terrific the current Mr. Terrific
42. Northwind
43 Orpheus
44. Skyrocket
45. Steel 2.0
46. the tangent: Superman
47 Thunder
48 Vykin the Black
49. WarMonarch
50.XS

Also since Tyroc's name is really Troy Stewart wouldn't it be cool if he turned out to be the descendant of John Stewart of the JLA and ended up using his dimension powers to travel from his homeland to New York and visit GL.? Might be a cool idea to bring back a good hero, Tyroc.