Superman Through the Ages! Forum

What happens in the final page this time?


Superman of Earth-2:

"...But i realized we saved the wrong earth"

"This corrupted and darkened Earth must be forgotten as ours was..."

"...So that the right Earth can return"

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm............??????????????????

Sounds good to me!  I hope DC lets him pull it off.

Beppo, I thought you weren't going to be reading IC.  Did you change your mind?

:s:

I didn't I have erm.. guerrilla forces, working for me on the inside. :wink:

There is a catch!

More happen than just that.

1st Earth-2 Superman meet Powergirl and told her that he was her cousin but he thought of her of more of a daughter. She then held his hand and all of her memories of Earth-2 pre-crisis came rushing back to her.

Also Powergirl and the new Supergirl's heartbeat were synchronized.

Earth-2 Superman told her that his wife Lois is dying, and he needs to bring back the old Earth and get rid of the Iron Age Earth in order for her to live, and there is the catch. What is his true motive, to save Lois or to save the current heroes from themselves and make this world better.

He didn't say how he planed on doing this. Guess we shall get clues in #3.

speaking of which, Jim Lee's cover to #3 : http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/InfiniteCrisis/INCRLeeCv3.jpg

This just makes suspicious they're gonna pull something where Earth 2 Superman is technically the villan of the peice because he wants to change the world from what it is now.

Exactly!

That said school Batman fans may wait to take a deep breath before checking out that cover :)

It also might give a big clue as to where DC is going with this, which is what I feared from the start, if that is who I think it is.

That's exactly what a lot of people think. They think the Earth-2 Superman has either cracked or is a tool of the Anti-Monitor. And not surprisingly, the Iron Age fanboys are hoping this leads to the post-Crisis Superman taking the Earth-2 Superman down in battle.

Pretty much everyone is of accord on the outcome: They strongly believe the Earth-2 Superman will die. So again, anyone hoping the DCU will get its act together after this probably shouldn't hold their breath.

Crisis Counseling Session 02

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/InfiniteCrisis/CrisisCOunseling02.htm

Dangit, Kuuga!  That sounds very possible.  That sounds too possible.

Johns is supposed to be the character doctor so he hasn't fumbled on this score yet.

But it would be just our luck that he picks E-2 Superman to be his first big screw-up.

I hope you're wrong.

Given the material in IC #1, I see no evidence Kal-L is behind any of the bad stuff.  He's been a passive observer alongside his companions without the ability to affect what he's seeing.  In a sense, it's like they were in the Phantom Zone all that time.  The Pre Crisis E-1 Superman had to break Aethyr's crystal core to escape the zone, so E-2 Superman has done something similar.

Maybe we're all overreacting here.

Maybe the two Supermen will merge to be a better Superman combining the best of both worlds.  The same would go for the rest.

How haven't you been showing Superman as heroic? Let's see:

- he's been whiny and self-loathing for years

-he's allowed himself to take such a ridiculous level of spousal abuse that even the Iron Age fanboys started crying foul

- he has no self-confidence and has to rely a shrink for guidance

- he resorts to smashing rocks whenever he gets in a mood

- let himself be brainwashed every 10 seconds

- he's made some really bone-headed decisions (the Vanishing) that haven't done anything to improve his image

No DiDio, you haven't portrayed Superman as heroic. And the few times you have (Trinity, Birthright, New Frontier), you left them to the Iron Age wolves by not supporting or promoting those stories. Otherwise you've poured your resources into Super-Whipped Victim, Super-Whiner, Super-Dunce, and Super-Brat.

This interview tears it. They're really not going to change one single thing after this miniseries is over. Instead of the Iron Age, we're heading into the Gore Age. Especially with the bragging about the corpses in issue #1 being trotted out as trophies on display. I guess Smallville's plans to make Clark/Superman a jealous, petty brat who declares Lex his arch-enemy over who gets Lana aren't such a stretch after all. That sort of ignoble behavior would fit perfectly into the world DC's fashioning. God knows a noble, heroic Superman would never work in today's world....  :roll:

How come Batmsn; ear now shows through his cowl? What genius came up with THAT one? :roll:

Please look at that cover again, let me just say it then, is that suppose to be Batman of Earth-2? Because if it is, he as we know died long before crisis, but that would mean that Superman of Earth-2 is a fake, then again, that could be Robin, since he took over with that wacky costume. Since he is wearing a suit and Jim Lee draws everyone the same, I can't tell.

Is who supposed to be the Batman of Earth-2?  The cop with the baby?  If so, he looks pretty young (not that Lee makes E-2 Superman look the right age, mind you) and together with the fact that Catwoman is also young (and hot) I'm guessing the baby would have to be Helena Wayne, meaning this Bruce and Selena have been plucked from the period after Bruce hung up the cowl but well before the 1970s JSA revival.  Of course Dick wasn't wearing that costume at the time.  And did we ever see Bruce wear such a uniform before? I got the impression he hopped straight into the (plainclothes) Commissioner job without coming up through the ranks as Gordon did.

Maybe they're just "ghosts" or conjured up images to make some point to modern Bruce about what his life could have been.  Or maybe they're from another Earth entirely.

At any rate, I still haven't seen or heard anything to convince me to pick up an issue of this book and I'm sure in a few months I'll be glad I saved my money.

i'm thinking the revelation of a slaughtered family from an alternate universe will drive bats batty and kal-l will inadvertanly cause batman to go to arkham.

I believe the current Batman isn't really the E-1 Batman but an amalgamated version after the Crisis reworked things.  So, he could be both of his predecessors.  He could have two or more conflicting sets of memories after E-2 Superman contacts him.

We saw something similar in Loeb's Superman/Batman run where the timelines kept changing and Batman had memories of the different lives he'd led at the same time.

one small problem.. e-2 batman I was dead.

That doesn't matter when you're talking about the universe being rebooted from the Dawn of Time.  When history itself has been reworked from the Big Bang, being killed in the present is meaningless.

Go watch the Back to the Future trilogy for a recent popularization of this idea.

Sadly I have to agree.  It looks like they're making the Earth 2 Superman the villain in this story--the man who wants to erase the entire earth out of existance just to save his dying wife.  Since he broke out of the dimension they were in, I fear the only way DC can get rid of him is to have him die.
Now, which Luthor is the "real" Luthor?

I've got two problems with that:

(1) A lot of people in Batman's world have been killed and he hasn't been put in the nuthouse yet...why would he care more about people from another reality?

(2) I hardly think we need an earth-shaking trauma to explain why modern Batman would be a candidate for Arkham.  He should have been stuck in there years ago.  I'll sign the papers myself, it it helps.

anyone think we might see this cover repeated in the near future?


Please click the link to see the cover
http://www.moviepoopshoot.com/comics101/images/2005/nov8/infsupes.jpg

New Article:

WHO'S THAT (POWER) GIRL: EXPLAINING POWER GIRL'S HISTORY
by Troy Brownfield

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=c25d2c88b25b96be027ca8c717f47df2&threadid=49009

So do I, brother. So do I.

But something stinks about this whole scenario.

That sounds very disturbingly like Hal Jordan when he was Parallax.  Never mind it fail to deal with the fact that Hypertime seems to include a myrid of Earth like the Pre-Crisis DCU did. The only thing is asside for a few exceptions (Matrix) you cannot remain in a reality outside your own for very long.  We know from the Black Zero saga that something very much like the Silver Age Superboy's world exist and there was Golden Age another Hypertimeline.

So exactly what is Kal-L think he is doing? Or has Parallax found a new plaything?

Here is a brand new funny detailed review of issue #2:

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=1c05d722e1bf7754a24b36b37cac5d9a&threadid=49141

I recently finished reading Infinite Crisis #2, and I've got my doubts that this is the same Earth-2 Superman that was in Crisis On Infinite Earths.  I don't remember the Earth-2 Superman ever having a "Fort" in the arctic, I thought the he just had the Secret Mountain Citadel outside Metropolis.

I also don't remember the Earth-2 Zor-El having a big golden hoop earring like we saw in this issue.

So it looks like Earth-Two and Earth-2 are similar places, but not identical.

:s:

jsa 82 cover?

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/JSA/PaulJSA82.gif

If the Earth-2 Superman is joining the JSA, so am I.  That's one issue I won't be missing.

:s:

Rao, take a look at the Paul Levitz interview and the three pages at:
http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/JSA/LevitzJSA.htm

This is supposed to be a "flashback" story taking place when the JSA disbanded in the 1950s, so I fully expect that Earth-2 Batman is still dead. BUT perhaps both Kal-L AND Lois survive Infinite Crisis. And it looks like Lois is either convalescing or comfortably spending her sunset years in an apartment at the JSA brownstone. The flashback story is told from her recollections, which is so appropriate from her reporter's background. (I can see Lois as the scribe of the Golden Age JSA adventures.)

However, other sharp-eyed posters on the DC Message Boards point out that former Red Tornado/ current JSA Museum Curator Ma Hunkle is reading Lois' notebook. so Lois might have written this story on Pre-Crisis Earth-2 or even in the Paradise Dimension where we saw a faux Metropolis in The Kingdom.  So we're not ABSOLUTELY sure if Kal-L or Lois survive Infinite Crisis, or if the JSA is now on a new Earth-2.  But obviously Superman and Batman have been restored to their historic roles in JSA history -- note the Superman statue beyond the archway on page one.

Can anyone decipher the Gregg shorthand on Lois' notebook, seen on the cover behind Superman and the Gentleman Ghost?  Also, take a good look at the building ad on the third page as Superman and Batman react to the JSA's disbandment. Recognize those names?  :wink:

Awww, dang it!

I knew, sooner or later that they were going to kill somebody off that I liked. It's all well and good to view the death of someone like Uncle Sam and the Black Condor with clinical detachment, but the DC Universe is all the poorer (and Captain Marvel is all the poorer) without that absolutely fantastic Monster Society of Evil member.

He has a great look, neat powers, history...it's unfortunate that they decided to eliminate this particular killer robot.



I really hate how when they say "clean house," what they really mean is "kill off Silver Age characters with potential that haven't appeared in comics stories in decades." If Kurt Busiek could do one of the greatest AVENGERS stories ever with Kulan Gath, who's to say some future Aqua-writer can't tell a good story with the Fisherman? That's the most shortsighted thing in the world.

Apparently, the only people that can ever have bad ideas are Silver Age writers. You know what would be great? Is if they did a Crisis and only eliminated MODERN Age characters. The death of Damage was a step in the right direction. Anybody ever read the recent DC Comics Encyclopedia? Choked to the rim with lousy comics: Lab Rats (ugh) the DNAngels (double ugh) any character that ever appeared as an enemy in STEEL, YOUNG JUSTICE or IMPULSE - all these people are calling for the ultimate penalty! Ditto for those odious little weasels in Young Justice, the Relative Heroes, Young Heroes in Love...

Don't forget Ma'alefik (giving the Martian Manhunter a totally boring archnemesis? Good going, ferretbrains!)

That one character not created by Kirby who is yet ANOTHER son of Darkseid (yawn)

Any Superman villain created by Chuck Austen, any supporting cast member created by John Byrne or the Carlin team (Ron Troupe, Cat Grant, and most especially Rampage - which is an act of intellectual theft so obvious and so crooked after even touching a comic with her in it, I feel like bathing in lysol)

Any Modern Age Superman supervillain sans Maxima and Riot: La Encantadora, Conduit, Doomsday, Misa, that...guy that makes deathtraps for a living whose name escapes me at the moment

The Huntress, who without Earth-2 has been deprived of a reason to exist

Any "teen replacement" for an experienced superhero (yes, that means you, Ray, and you, new Firestorm)

Anybody in the Peter David Aquaman supporting cast: the wizard Atlan (who?) that crooked High Priest, Thanatos...

And finally, for the love of GOD, Lobo. He's not only a joke that is not funny anymore; he's a joke that drunk relatives bring out over and over during the holidays that you come to slightly resent.

bizarro head hurt

I think the changes in the Earth 2 Superman are due to the writer's mistakes, not a planned thing.
I would be more than happy to see Earth 2 restored and it would make an incredible amount of sense, which is why I don't think DC is going to do this.

Yes, DC intends it to be the real E-2 Superman who was around before CRISIS. More on that below.

Whether or not they will "get it right" is still an open question.

If I can trust anyone currently at DC to do the character justice as a writer, it would be Paul Levitz. He signed off on a lot of garbage as company head honcho and PUBLISHER, over the years, but as a writer I think his affection has always been for the pre-CRISIS characters...

From an early "leak" of the February solicitations:

INFINITE CRISIS SECRET FILES 2006
Written by Marv Wolfman
Art by Dan Jurgens with Jerry Ordway & Marc Campos
Cover by Ivan Reis & Campos
Don’t miss this important side chapter of the INFINITE CRISIS saga! Superman of Earth-2, his wife, Lois Lane of Earth-2, Alex Luthor of Earth-3 and Superboy from Earth Prime: the last survivors of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. What happened to them after CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS is finally revealed here for the first time by one of the masterminds behind that landmark event: writer Marv Wolfman (NEW TEEN TITANS)!
Learn what these heroes have been doing, how they have changed, and how their reappearance will force the DCU’s heroes to reexamine themselves. This is the one Secret Files you dare not miss!
On sale February 22 • 64 pg, FC, $5.99 US

JSA #82
Written by Paul Levitz
Art and cover by George Pérez & Bob Wiacek
Legendary JSA writer Paul Levitz makes his stellar return to the DCU with superstar artist George Pérez (CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, WONDER WOMAN) for an important chapter of INFINITE CRISIS in a story featuring the members of original JSA: Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman! Please see the Dynamic Forces section of Previews for a signed edition.
On sale February 1 • 32 pg, FC, $2.50 US


INFINITE CRISIS #5
Written by Geoff Johns
Art by Phil Jimenez & Andy Lanning
Covers by Jim Lee & Sandra Hope and George Pérez
The DCU shakes apart as Superman of Earth 2 finally confronts our Superman. Meanwhile, heroes are disappearing throughout the DC Universe, a transformed villain returns, and the mystics of every world and dimension seek help from the very Spirit that is destroying them. Retailers please note: This issue will ship with covers by Lee & Hope (approximately 50%) and Pérez (approximately 50%).
On sale February 15 • 5 of 7 • 40 pg, FC, $3.99 US

(Note: the cover for this issue is now up at Newsarama's website and shows E-2 Superman punching out the current version, by Perez)

SUPERMAN #226
Written by Joe Kelly
Art by Tim Sale, Ed Benes and Dan Jurgens
Cover by Ed McGuinness
Part 1 of “This Is Your Life, Superman,” a 3-part tale
running through all three Superman titles in February! Witness the arrival of Kal-L, the Last Son of Krypton! Learn how he grew up to be the greatest hero of Earth-2. This issue includes a special origin album by Jeph Loeb & Tim Sale, the creative team behind SUPERMAN FOR ALL SEASONS!
On sale February 1 • 32 pg, FC, $2.50 US


ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #649
Written by Joe Kelly
Art by Karl Kerschl, Ed Benes and Dan Jurgens
Cover by Ivan Reis & Marc Campos
The conclusion to the 3-part “This Is Your Life, Superman!”
Relive the climactic adventure of Earth-2’s Man of Steel as his world falls apart during the events of the original CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS.
On sale Feb 15 • 32 pg, FC, $2.50 US

ACTION COMICS #836
Written by Joe Kelly
Art by Ed Benes and Dan Jurgens
Cover by Mark Schultz
Part 2 of the 3-part “This Is Your Life, Superman!” Superman
is caught by the one person he can’t defeat: Lois Lane! Witness the undying love story of the greatest couple of Earth-2, and how their love could bring about the end of the universe.
On sale Feb 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.50 US

SUPERGIRL #6
Written by Jeph Loeb
Art by Ian Churchill & Norm Rapmund
Covers by Churchill & Rapmund and Michael Turner
There can only be one true Supergirl, and there's only one person who can help Kara win that title: Superman!
They've thrown down before, but now Superman has to stop Supergirl — even if it means the most unexpected death of all! Don’t miss this special issue guest-starring Batman and Wonder Woman! Retailers please note: This issue will feature two covers by Churchill & Rapmund and Michael Turner. Please see order form for details.
On sale February 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US

Interesting side note, Did anyone else pick up on when powergirl said that Superman prposes to lis on top of the Daily Star building? this doesn't match what happened in the tale Superman takes a bride.  They got maried while Clark forgot that he was Superman. So point to poner, is this truely the E-2 couple we've been hoping for?

See Earth-2 Superman give the Iron Age Superman the what for:

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Feb06/DCU/InfiniteCrisisCv5Perez.jpg

 :D

LOL, kind of a nice image no matter what your generation might be... 8)

Well, part of why I consider Johns overrated is his sloppy, shoddy research.  You have a case in point above.

I suppose we might cut him some slack if we remember that Clark Kent married Lois Lane first, but when they rediscovered his secret identity, Superman decided to wed Lois as well using Kryptonian customs in his Secret Citadel.  While it wasn't shown in the original wedding issue,  a scene might be shoehorned in between Superman with Lois in their Metropolis home and the flight to the Citadel that he got the coal from Zriff (or was that supposed to be Mxy's 'Zrff'?), compressed it into a diamond, then proposed atop the Daily Star building.

(http://superman.nu/tales2/wife/21.gif)

But that's a heckuva lotta 'supposing' just to wipe out Johns' sloppy research.

I don't think Superman originally had any kind of ulterior motives in coming to the mainstream DCU.  He came precisely why he said he did to save it from itself.  Lois was dying from normal aging in the other realm and she didn't get so bad until after he brought her back to the real DCU.  Since she was otherwise fine and even better off in the other realm, he cannot be faulted for an ulterior motive here.

Now, he does have much happier memories of his Earth-2 history which conflict with the abyssmal hell of the Iron Age DCU he's been observing.  Of course, he'd think his old Earth would be an improvement over the one he's just witnessed in comparison.  But I didn't get the sense that he specifically intended to retrofit E-2 into the mainstream DCU as the replacement.  He did say their old Earth was forgotten and this dark world needed to be just as forgotten.

"This corrupted and darkened Earth must be forgotten as ours was ... so that the right Earth can return."
-- E-2 Superman to Power Girl, Infinite Crisis #2, final page, panel 4.

It must be noted just how friggin' powerful the E-2 Superman is in IC #2.  He easily decks Giganta, Mr. Atom, and the rest of those villains -- like an afterthought.

Mr. Atom in particular is able to give Captain Marvel a tough time, so the fact that this Superman reduced the robot to scrap metal in a twinkling is telling indeed.

Also note the below quote:

"The clouds part.  The yellow sun welcomes me back."
-- E-2 Superman's thoughts, Infinite Crisis #2, page 5, panel 5

Just after that panel and sun exposure, this Superman trashes all the villains threatening Power Girl.

Another thing, if he needed that sun exposure to be back up to full power like that, then that means his being trapped in the other realm and busting out is a much greater feat since he wasn't at full strength when he did so.

Oh, an afterthought of my own: Neither Jim Lee nor Phil Jimenez are drawing E-2 Superman's shield correctly.  It has a flat stroke joining the bottom of the 'S' to the right of the shield, not a curlicue like the E-1 Superman's shield.  Jimenez even puts the E-1 shield on E-2 Superman's cape outright when showing them viewing mainstream Earth from the other realm.

You are missing the point that his suit was trashed at the end of Crisis, so this is a new one and thus the new design :)

Let's face it, we have all wished something like that would happen someday. The Earth-1 Superman is too nice to beat the holy crap out of his whiny and lame iron age counterpart, but the good old Earth-2 Superman, is more than happy to kick it old school and try to knock some sense into him and perhaps maybe get him to start acting like a real Superman who isn't an embarrassment and a disgrace to the name.

Not really, Super Monkey re: wrong E-2 shield.

That doesn't explain why Jimenez has E-2 Superman's shield drawn wrong in that flashback scene during the Multiverse days capturing E-2 Luthor in parallel with E-1 Superman capturing his own Earth's Luthor in the next panel.  Surely, any damage incurred during the last Crisis wouldn't be retroactive to a past multiverse that technically didn't exist anymore, right?

Jimenez gets E-2 Superman's alternate shield consistent except for that one backview panel in the other realm where suddenly it's the classic E-1 shield.

Naah, Jimenez goofed -- big time!

But you are stilling missing the point that in the new Earth-Prime that is controlling all that happens on the Iron Age Earth, the writers and artists there are not as good as the ones in the pre-crisis Earth-Prime, and thus the symbol is drawn wrong. It's part of the plot I tell ya ;)

Maybe the Earth-Two Superman should come to Earth-Prime with a Phantom Zone projector and clean out the DC offices.

Hmm...

Re: the E-2 Supes taking out Mr. Atom easily:

I'd imagine that the *pre-Crisis* Mr. Atom would've been tougher for the E-2 Supes to take on, since I'd assume the post-Crisis Atom, like Capt. Marvel and Superman, have been powered down from pre-Crisis levels...

>>INFINITE CRISIS #5
Written by Geoff Johns
Art by Phil Jimenez & Andy Lanning
Covers by Jim Lee & Sandra Hope and George Pérez
The DCU shakes apart as Superman of Earth 2 finally confronts our Superman. Meanwhile, heroes are disappearing throughout the DC Universe, a transformed villain returns, and the mystics of every world and dimension seek help from the very Spirit that is destroying them. Retailers please note: This issue will ship with covers by Lee & Hope (approximately 50%) and Pérez (approximately 50%).
On sale February 15 • 5 of 7 • 40 pg, FC, $3.99 US
<<

It took until issue #5 of this thing for E-2 Supes to finally confront his post-Crisis doppelganger? Wonder why meeting up with him wasn't a main priority...

>>
SUPERMAN #226
Written by Joe Kelly
Art by Tim Sale, Ed Benes and Dan Jurgens
Cover by Ed McGuinness
Part 1 of “This Is Your Life, Superman,” a 3-part tale
running through all three Superman titles in February! Witness the arrival of Kal-L, the Last Son of Krypton! Learn how he grew up to be the greatest hero of Earth-2. This issue includes a special origin album by Jeph Loeb & Tim Sale, the creative team behind SUPERMAN FOR ALL SEASONS!
On sale February 1 • 32 pg, FC, $2.50 US


ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #649
Written by Joe Kelly
Art by Karl Kerschl, Ed Benes and Dan Jurgens
Cover by Ivan Reis & Marc Campos
The conclusion to the 3-part “This Is Your Life, Superman!”
Relive the climactic adventure of Earth-2’s Man of Steel as his world falls apart during the events of the original CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS.
On sale Feb 15 • 32 pg, FC, $2.50 US

ACTION COMICS #836
Written by Joe Kelly
Art by Ed Benes and Dan Jurgens
Cover by Mark Schultz
Part 2 of the 3-part “This Is Your Life, Superman!” Superman
is caught by the one person he can’t defeat: Lois Lane! Witness the undying love story of the greatest couple of Earth-2, and how their love could bring about the end of the universe.
On sale Feb 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.50 US
<<

Hmm... from the remarks by other posters, I smell retcons a-comin'. Since, of course, just reprinting "Action Comics" #484 and 1986's "Secret Origins" #1 (plus all those "Mr. and Mrs. Superman" stories in "Superman Family") wouldn't be sufficient enough... *cough*<Nevada has his wallet out for "Mr. & Mrs. Superman" reprints>*cough*...  ;-)

Yes, I would think the meeting between the two Supermen would have occured earlier.  Strange that they have put it off until then.
I suspect this Infinite Crisis is yet another excuse to explain how certain characters have been rebooted and changed, like the infamous new Doom Patrol reboot.

ok , maybe i  missed the point, but just for fun

this is the family tree
On  the old earth 2... they had a Bruce Wayne /Batman too, who was born in an earlier era than the current Earth 1 Batman who began his Batman Carreer in the last 5 or 10 years. Bruce fell in love with Selina.
 Bruce Wayne married Selina Kyle (Catwoman)
and their daughter was:
Helena Wayne (The Huntress) [Similar to in the wonderful but defunct "BIRDS OF PREY" tv series. Eventually Bruce, Selina, and even the Joker are missing or presumed dead.  The Arch foe of The Huntress is Doctor Harley Quinn, Psychiatrist and secretly a kingpin of crime in Gotham City. ]
on earth 2 Batman retires and Dick takes on the Batman identity.(In Batman Beyond and in Justice League Unlimited of course this is told differently, and Terry McGinnis, the clone of Bruce Wayne is the successor of the Batman mantle with Bruce continuing on as an advisor a la Oracle by radio)
Bruce Wayne retires and Robin (Dick Grayson) becomes the new Batman
He wears a different costume than Batman did though.
This of course it totally different from the alternate earth where there is a Batman Jr. and a Superman Jr.

You know they're going to play this as E-2 Superman being the bad guy and Iron Age Superman as the good guy. The notion that Superman's behavior of late is unbecoming would cause DC's collective head to implode.



Golden Age writers/artists don't get off any better. The attitude now is that everything begins with John Byrne and Frank Miller and every single thing before that was "Silver Age camp," even stuff from the 1930s.

Which explains why Didio is gleefully going on a killing rampage.

Someone on the DC message board once compared Didio to a serial murderer when it came to the DC characters.  A single death(Sue Dibny, Firestorm, Jack Drake) or a team(Freedom Fighters) with each time a death takes place.

I have the bad feeling that part of Infinite Crisis is to take out the last intact Bronze Age heroine: Amethyst: Princess of Gemworld.  She violates everything DC stands for.  She is a powerful woman who has retained her powers and does have a somewhat happy ending with her daughter living on Earth.  She's more powerful than Superman.  Women in DC should be depowered, raped, killed, have no happiness, and no family.  No hero should be more powerful than Superman.  No heroine should be more powerful than Wonder Woman.

Wait, isn't Perez doing anything but alternate covers?  Now it doesn't even rate a free look or "standing at the comic rack read".

I don't know whether to blame Johns, Jimenez, or both, but the flashback sequences as Kara regained her E-2 memories included E-1 Superman's Arctic fortress complete with giant golden key and golden door.  E-2 Superman's Secret Citadel resembled more a cathedral from the front and had his S-shield above the entrance.

I had such high hopes for this series and I'm finding Johns/Jimenez/Berganza/whoever is being really slipshod on the research here.

Say what you want about Wolfman's Crisis, boners like what I've griped about in IC didn't occur there.  I think the only one I can come up with was Stewart wearing his power ring on the wrong finger in COIE #1, and that's not a biggie.

Oh, yes, DoctorZero, I agree completely that the Post Crisis Mr. Atom -- along with the rest of the DCU -- had been seriously downgraded in power-levels compared with the Pre Crisis version.  My unstated point was that the Pre Crisis level E-2 Superman operates at a much, much higher level than the characters of the Post Crisis DCU.  On this score, Johns has successfully captured those differences.

We have one ray of hope that E-2 Superman is not the villain.

We still don't have an explanation how the Pre Crisis E-1 Luthor managed to coexist with the Byrned Luthor.  That predates the gang breaking out of the other realm heaven/prison.  Given that and the evil machinations behind the Rann/Thanagar war reworking the cosmos itself, which also predate the escape, it looks like a mystery player is pulling the strings.

Who knows?  Maybe our buddy the Anti-Monitor somehow recovered and is the big baddie yet again.

You must have missed the Amethyst special issue that came right after Crisis. In that she is revealed not to even be human and her entire history has been rewritten to where she is nothing more 'then the imagenary friend of a lonely girl'. She then confronts Flaw takes him out turning her right hand into crystal in the process. Then she absorbs Chaos and the issue enf with a close up on her picture the gemstone around her neck melting like ice implying that the last remnents of her existance as a human being are being retroactively wiped out.

Well, after skimming the last two issues I have to say I know where I stand on this whole debacle.

 *sits in the bleachers wearing an Earth-2 Superman t-shirt and waving GO TEAM KAL-L flag*

 ;)

 No more angst! Go team E2!

 -Def.

Sadly, I think we have yet more evidence that IC is going to keep DC in the gory, grim'n'gritty Dark Ages.

I just read Johns' latest GL book with the Shark and Black Hand.  It was a gorefest.  That's not the light-hearted, fun Hal tales I remember.  Johns seems to be trying to gross us out and claim it's 'realism'.

Johns is also writing IC and is indulging in a similar gorefest there.

I'm losing hope.

Looking at all of the posts, "today's Superman is bogus, the silver age Superman ruled", reminds me of hearing people go on and on about how the 40's and 50's were a golden age where everyone got along fine, everyone had a job and America was the bestest ever.

I think what is happening is that we are getting older and long for our youth which happens in every generation. In our case we look at the books that were published when we were kids and go "Ah, if only comics were like this again! I don't understand the world today."

When people complain about "life today" aand how things were so much better when they were younger, I ask them this question, "Did you really appreciate what you had then or did you not think about it until it was gone?"

Coming back to comics, lest we forget, superheroes were abandoned in the early 50's because a "respectedd" "Dr." thought they contributed to juvenile delinquency. In particular the old EC horror mags, which were extremely well written and would be considered "PG" rated at best by modern audiences.

Having said all of this, I think DC and Marvel both have gotten darker, in an effort to connect with today's audience. I think they are suffering from a combination of Marvel's initial success of "realism" and fans reaction to the X-Men "mutant angst".

Let's face it, some of the best stories from Marvel over the last 20 years have been from this area.

Kids related to these characters that were struggling to be accepted despite being different. Kids have always felt this way. The problem now is that they are being portrayed as being emotionally disturbed and dangerous. On the flip-side, they are portrayed as needing to be protected from all "negative" input but Barney.

As far as Superman goes, in 20 years or so, when comics change again (they always do) or go away (an equal possiblility) today's group of readers will probably lament its passing.

OK, its late and I'm tired. I didn't mean for this post to turn into a rant. All I am saying is let today's group have their idea of "fun" and we will always have our old movies and TV shows to watch "TVLand or AMC anyone?) and reprints of classic comics restored in book bound formats.

There are pretty fundemental reasons why people here tend to prefer the pre-Crisis Superman, it runs quite a bit deeper than that, though of course, personal preference is pretty big...

the fortress was the silverasge supermans...
see coie for a visual reference....
she remeber's going there to mourn with kal-el not kal-l.. it's an intentional mistake so people pay attention to it..
im pretty sure one of the luthors found a crisis remenant of the key and fortress in an issue of superman recently.

The real problem hitting Supes is the same problem that has plagued Captain America since his re-introduction in the 60s. Mainly, how do you make an patriotic icon relevant to today's society.

The answer is you don't.

They can and will build its own audience if the stories are well written and the artwork consistently good.

As for me, I don't buy comics and really don't bash the current age at all...I don't even like the Bronze Age stories and I don't think the Silver Age is coming back...I just prefer the comics from then, when I did buy comics...there is a bigger variety of opinions here than might meet the eye...

But is that because the feeling of the stories changed or because you lost interest. A lot of people feel that they have outgrown comics as a whole. But ehough of that this is a topic for another forum.

Agreed, a new topic, go ahead and start one, I think its interesting...

I left comics because I was growing up and didn't want to be a nerd, and because I thought the Bronze Age was adding to much overly serious and involved mythos that tied too many things together, when I prefered more imagination (personally, I think this direction actaully LED to the Crisis which so many people hate)...and I didn't like ham handed references to popular culture, Galaxy Broadcasting, Steve Lombard etc...

I am game if anyone else is interested...

I'll start something up in the general Superman forum... 8)

The nolstagia card doesn't really work with me.   My life was somehwat crappy back then.  My teachers used me as an example of what not to be.

I enjoy and appreciate what I have now.

They are overplaying the angst and the darkness and the gore.

This is the other problem.  It is either Barney and the sugary sweetness or the darkness and gore.  There is no middle ground anymore.

The Superman from the recent animated series is a respectable character.  I don't mind reading stories about him.  

If I compare the Adventures Superman to the Comic Superman, the Comic Superman comes up short in so many ways.

In which ways exactly?

That isn't necessarily the case. I wasn't alive in the 40s, 50s, or 60s. I wasn't even alive in the 70s...in fact, my parent's didn't get married until the 80s.

My point, besides making other people on the board feel really old, is that something changed. My first comics were actually Archie comics, the Superboy series based on the TV show, and the Who Framed Roger Rabbit? movie adaptations.

Crisis on Infinite Earths happened when I was 2 or 3. I didn't go back and read the major 80s revamps until I was in college (er, last year or the year before that) and when I did they kind of made me sick to my stomach. I guess I'm from a truly "post-Crisis" generation of comics readers, meaning that stuff like Crisis on Infinite Earths, The Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, and Man of Steel were a huge waste of my money. My friend who recommended them to me is older, and I should yell at him...except that he also bought "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" for me.

And that was the turning point. I've been a pre-Crisis Superman fan ever since.

Why?

Come to this thread... 8)

http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2085

Superman has changed a lot since the old days, and yet he's still heroic and selfless and tries to protect the innocent. the villains are more vicious, but he still is persevering in maintaining a high moral standard.