Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Infinite Crisis seems ok so far.  It would be nice if part of the aftermath would be the return of the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse.  However i know that won't happen.  DC's attitude seems to still be the pre-crisis=garbage.  20 years later i still say that Crisis was a mistake.  The story itself was great, but the aftermath really reeks.  There was no need to eliminate the multiverse in order to have the post-crisis DCU.  The "clean" reboot Marv Wolfman wanted would have worked (& made more sense) if done as a new earth/universe of the DC Multiverse.  Infinite Crisis seems to be more about further darkenning the DCU.  In order to make it more "realistic".  A real world (like ours) includes everything from the most "bright & optimistic" to the most "grim & gritty".  As well as everything inbetween.  



       To me every major reboot/retcon/revamp DC did were for the most part shifts of focus between universes or even multiverses.  Hence the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse still exists.  The last stories set there were in the late 70s to early 80s.  Crisis never happened.  If/when DC kills off Kal-L just keep in mind that he is only a "counterpart" of sorts of the Kal-L from the pre-crisis Earth-2.

i'm prettyy sure he's the real deal

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/InfiniteCrisis/INCRLeeCv3.jpg

My main point was that over the years there have been several DC Multiverses.  Here are the ones i am certain (as certain as one can be about fiction :lol: ) of:


      1.)  The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse: the Crisis never happened here.  Kara Zor-El/Supergirl/Linda Lee Danvers is still alive.  As is Barry Allen/Flash.  Freedom Fighters are native to Earth-X.  The Quality characters on Earth-2 are counterparts to the ones on Earth-X.  Brainiac is still a "green-skinned" super-computer in humanoid form.  Lex might have his warsuit, but Lexor still lives.  This multiverse was last seen in our DC titles about the late 70s or early 80s.


       2.)  The Crossover Multiverse:  The Pre-Crisis DC/Marvel crossovers take place here.  DC's Earth-1 & Marvel's Marvel-Earth are the same earth/universe.


       3.)  The Crisis DC Multiverse:  Crisis happened here.  This multiverse is still mostly intact, minus the 1,000-3,000 universes destroyed by the Anti-Monitor.  freedom Fighters & other Quality characters originate on Earth-2 & migrate to Earth-X.  The battle at the "dawn of time" somehow causes the creation of around 3 new multiverses.  When the battle was over the survivors went home.  This multiverse was first seen in our DC titles by the early 80s.  It was last seen in Crisis #10.


        4.)  The Post-Crisis DC Multiverse:  First seen in Crisis #11.  The Earth-DC shown is kind of an amalgam of Crisis Earths 1, 2, 4, S, & X.  Certain characters (whose Crisis multiverse counterparts went to the "dawn of time") were given their counterparts' memories in order to help them fight the Anti-Monitor.  The other characters at the "dawn of time" were duplicated. The duplicates were sent to the Post-Crisis DC Multiverse to help fight the Anti-Monitor.  This most likely happened in several of the Post-Crisis Multiverses.  This multiverse was last seen just before the "man of steel" mini-series started.


         5.)   The Reboot DC Multiverse:  First seen in issue #1 of "man of steel" mini-series.  Last seen circa "invasion".


          6.)   The Hawkworld DC Multiverse:  First seen in the Hawkworld mini-series.  Last seen in zero hour.


          7.)   The Current DC Multiverse: first seen in zero hour.



          As well as "Rao only knows" many many others.

Here is a list of the post-Crisis earths based on information from spark...@mindspring.com (Steve Parker) and the Infinate Atlas (http://www.io.com/~woodward/chroma/atmain.html):

Earth-Sigma: The very short lived merged earth that existed Crisis #11 & 12, the few tie up loose end issues after Crisis, and the Legion of SuperHeroes until about 1989. If Superman or the LSH remembers Kara-El dying fighting the Anti-Monitor, Lady Quark comes from another reality rather than another planet, or people who are stated as dying during Crisis are alive at the end of issue #12 or issues immedately after then you are dealing with Earth-Sigma.

Earth-AC (Earth After-Crisis): Are Superman and a Kryptonian artifact called the Eradicator are the last survivors of Krypton which was a bleak sterile place? Is the Flash Wally West and taps into something called the Speed Force and there are dozens of other speedsters (including the original Flash with the Mercury-like bowl on his head) running around? Is Guy Gardner is running around with Sinestro's ring and Hal had a fake Green Lantern ring he was tricked into taking from some guy named Lord Malvolio (Action #632-#635) which may or may have not called him to go nuts and kill the GLC? Does the Justice Society originally never have a Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman as members? Is anytime Hawkman or the Legion of Superheroes is mentioned, people get headaches? Welcome to Earth-AC

Earth-ZH (Earth Zero Hour): The stillborn earth related on the back of Zero
Hour #0. Is there supposed to be only one timeline but Armageddon 2001 (which required alternate timeline to work) and the Supergirl of the Time Trapper's artificial alternate timeline still exist/happened? Is the current Hawkman a Native American? Does the JSA now have Wonder Woman's time traveling mother as a member? Do many time travel stories now make no sense what so ever? Welcome to Earth-ZH.

Earth-Hypertime (1999-current): Is Kingdom Come and every other Elsewords title part of the DU multiverse? Do the Superman titles have absolutely no continuity with each other or the rest of the DCU? Does Superman have both Matrix and a cousin called Kara-Zor-El who both answer to the name Supergirl? Does tying to make sense of about any character's history give you headaches? Welcome to the current mess known as Earth-Hypertime.

No one has mentionned the "hyper time" concept, that admits the existence of several uni/multiverses (Cf "The Kingdom"). According the "Hypertime" theory, there are continuums where the Crisis never happened. For more info on Hypertime theory, see this site: http://www.geocities.com/hypertime2000/features/history.html
Though I hear DC has removed the Hypertime concept from its publications.

Anyway, llozymandias, I agree with 99% of what you say on Crisis.

Just curious, what is the 1% (re: crisis) where we disagree?  Of course it could always turn out that we actually agree there too.  One never knows.  Anyway on to hypertime.  I generally dislike DC's hypertime concept.  It has too many stupid rules against interdimensional travel.

So it proves, once again, we could have done very much better without Crisis...

How about the excuse/rationale DC gave for eliminating their multiverse.  Parallel universes (with multiple counterparts of characters) is too confusing for new/casual readers.  A good Whos Who was all that was really needed here.  Plus DC's post-crisis continuity is far more confusing than their pre-crisis continuity ever was.  Anyone who can't understand DC's Pre-Crisis Multiverse should never study their own family tree.  Genealogy & other forms of real world history are far more complex & potentially confusing than any fictional continuity/history.

The ironic thing was while Crisis was going on DC was also putting out a massive multi-issue Who's Who. The CSA of Earh-3's footnote states that they along with their Earth were wiped out in Crisis #1.

As far as confusing has DC read a Marvel Comic book in the last 30 years? The Madelyne Pryor/Goblin Queen/Jean Grey/Dark Phoenix mess makes Post-Crisis Hawkman and LSH histories look sane by comparison. Spiderman's and the X-men's histories are such a convoluted mess that I have no idea what is going on in those books any more.

Perhaps what DC really should do is launch their own Ultimate line and create a new DCU from scratch but keep the current titles as well.

I posted this on the DC boards:

What I'm going to hope for is that Earth-A managed to slip under the radar of the Monitor and Anti-Monitor. Earth-A and Earth-1 are pretty much the same Earth. Hopefully, Earth-A got away because it looked like Earth-1 from a distance and was never bothered by the COIE or its characters. Earth-2A and Earth-1A are probably other universes that managed to slip away by looking close enough like the primary line to fool the the two Monitors.

Harbinger said that Oa was only in the Earth-1 universe and its only duplicate was in Qward. However, as I pointed out Earth-A is a duplicate of Earth-1. It did have an Oa or does have an Oa. I don't beleive Harbinger, Alex Luthor, or the two Monitors KNEW of Earth-A. Earth-1A is another universe that had an Oa. Big glaring error in the Crisis. There were three universe with an Oa and it looks like COIE only got one of them.

1,2,4,S, & X were in Nether Space when the Anti-Monitor went back to the begining of time to reset the universe. The Monitor's equipment to transport Earth 1 and Earth 2 to Nether Space was scattered across the temporal boundraies, so the entire timeline of those two universes were transported as well. I'm not sure about 4,S,& X though. The time reboot merged only those five Earths

With all the argument about the current DCUbeing Earth-1, it'll just be a lot easier to use Earth-A to get the Silver/Bronze Age Superman into the story. With Earth-A not being bothered by COIE.....

Look up in the sky, it's Kal-El, Kara Zor-El, Lydia-7, and Kristen Wells.

Earth-A was an alterante Earth-1 that was split off by the Earth-1 Johnny Thunder long before COIE was ever concieved.

This constant we have to keep shoving all the heroes into one universe has created a problem for a lot of writers. I think that's why the Wilstorm characters have been kept out of the mainstream DCU. It's just too cluttered. The multiverse will be able to spread the heroes out and we won't have this insane number of metas on one world.

If a character is from another company and doesn't have instant icon status, they are considered canon fodder for every crisis that comes along. Look at Freedom Fighters. Look at Blue Beetle.

Earth-D (in the Crisis Multiverse) also had an OA & a GLC.  In Crisis Harbinger claims that OA is only in the Earth-1 universe, with no counterparts anywhere in the multiverse.  She believed that because it's what the Monitor told her.  Maybe the Monitor (& possibly Harbinger) lied about that.  Heck they probably also lied about the origin of the multiverse.

maybe donna troy can tell us...
and any universe where the GLC was duplicated i'm sure there's an OA.
wasn't alan scott's origin tied to OA in the silver age somehow even tho he was a sliver age charachter?

Alan, in the Golden Age, got his power from a meteor, easily made an Oan construction -- but then again the Speed Force is an easy step too, but it all depends what you like and who you demonize... 8)

The fact that Earth-A and Earth-D (I assume this is the one seen in DC COMICS PRESENTS with a black Superman?) have Green Lanterns does not necessarily indicate that they also had an Oa. There was a Green Lantern on Earth-2, but he had an origin that was completely different from the Earth-1 Lantern.

Even if there are Guardians mentioned, perhaps they don't live on Oa, they inhabit an adjoining planet from one at the center of the universe. Alternatively, maybe the Guardians only LOOK like the Guardians of Earth-1; maybe they're really EVIL SQUIDS OUT TO KILL EVERYBODY! (With illusion-powers naturally, that keeps everybody trusting them; the GL Corps in that universe are all EVIL beings, in disguise as heroes as a part of a plot for universal domination).



There was a story that the Timely publisher (Timely being the company that in the 1960s became "Marvel Comics") was offered $50,000 in the 1950s by DC, several times, for the rights to Captain America, the Human Torch, Whizzer, and Sub-Mariner. At the time, superheroes were on the out, and this was being unreally generous for characters that Timely wasn't even publishing. This publisher, a shrewd guy said, "nah, I'm already a millionaire, I don't need the money. I like these characters; in fact, I think I'll hold on to them."

And a good thing too - instead of being shoved in the back of a JSA group photo or used as one or two time guest-stars in Roy Thomas's ALL-STAR SQUADRON before being killed outright at a future crossover as cannon fodder deaths (as these Marvel heroes undoubtedly would have been) they were instead brought back and handled with incredible style by Stan Lee and other writers as the centerpiece of a Marvel Universe: Captain America as the leader and big shot of the biggest team of heroes in Marvel except the FF, Namor as possibly the most compelling, sympathetic, original, and charismatic villain ever created, and the Human Torch as the conceptual forebear of one of the greatest heroes in the Marvel Universe (Johnny Storm), as well as being a part of a fascinating backstory involving another great character (the Vision).



OUCH! OW!  :hit:

I assume that was directed at me, Matter-Eater-Lad, and my lengthy anti-Speed Force crtiques in the other forum? I've never demonized anybody, I'll have you know. I just don't agree with some ideas put out by some writers, some of which are counter to the spirit of the characters and world they are writing in.

(The exceptions of course, are Ellis - who is so smug and smarmy and venom-filled disproportionate to his actual non-talent, that I absolutely loathe him as a human being as well as a writer. Ditto for  Captain Johnny Redbeard; doesn't everybody have a "Byrne Behaving Badly" story?)

looks pretty obvious that connor survives the Crisis.



Marv Wolfman returns to the Titans! Get ready for the first TEEN TITANS ANNUAL. Having narrowly survived the death and destruction of the CRISIS, Superboy and Wonder Girl find some time alone in Smallville...but will it be a bloody Valentine?



http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Feb06/DCU/TeenTitansAnnualCv.jpg

No, that story is from 1999, though it takes place in the pre-crisis DC.

I don't have the issue and I have never read it, I only know of it.

It was a one-shot called "Legends of the DC Universe: Crisis on Infinite Earths #1"

No, not at all, what I mean about that is that you can make the Earth 2 meteor origin fit an Oan continuity, or you can make all the speedsters varied origins fit the speed force...

So what is and is not canon always seems to me to be up to personal preference...

My preferences to keep Supes out of the Oan continuity or the Daxamites isn't too popular here... 8)

Someone already took care of Earth D for me, so I'm not going to bother.

At the time, Earth A was an exact duplicate of the Earth 1 universe.  It was splintered away by the actions of the Johnny Storms of Earth 1 and Earth 2.

There there was Earth-B the dumbing ground for all the "Earth-1' stories that could not be fitted into normal continuty.  Earth-B's last appearance was in DC Challenge which basicly was 'writer go wild this issue and leave it to the  the poor soul that comes after you next issue to get out of the corner you happily painted him into.'  :lol:

I always considered "DC Challenge!" to be Earth-B's version of "Crisis on Infinite Earths".  Which means Kara and Barry survived, and Earth-B must be still around -- somewhere...   :wink:

As Earth-B's "creator", E. Nelson Bridwell once said, "wherever 2 or 3 of you gather together in my memory, there will be Earth-B."  Or something.

I am not a huge fan of the (Maggin-instigated?) connection between Superman and the Guardians, where Superman is the universal messiah, genetically prepared for millenia as the ultimate Green Lantern, or somesuch thing.  For me, it makes explicit too much of the Superman myth.  Too literal.  I like the smaller references to the GL Corps in the Maggin novels (a Kryptonian was the first Lantern, etc), but that's about it.

What??????????

Telle, you agree with me there, and I missed it!!!!!!! :lol:

it would be cool to see the giant battery on OA completely composed of kryptonite...