Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Superman Comic Books! => Infinite Crossover! => Topic started by: llozymandias on November 15, 2005, 09:37:49 PM



Title: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 15, 2005, 09:37:49 PM
This is of course fan speculation  on my part.  As i imagine it the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse was last seen in our DC titles circa late 70s or early 80s.  Neither Crisis nor the events leading up to it take place here.  Also i believe DC would have continued buying up defunct comics lines.  Here are many of the earths as i imagine them:




              1.)  Earth-A; Lawless League.  Supposedely a divergent timeline of Earth-1.  Could turn out to actually be a parallel earth.


              2.)  Earth-B;  Certain stories that don't fit either Earth-1 or Earth-2 take place here.  I imagine that here Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superman started his career as an 8 year old Superboy circa 1924.


              3.)  Earth-C;  Captain Carrott,  the Zoo Crew, & other funny animal characters.


              4.)  Earth-C-Minus;  Justa Lotta Animals, & other funny animal versions of Earth-1 inhabitants.


              5.)  Earth-D;  Dell/Gold Key (& the other Dell Comics) characters.


              6.)  Earth-E;  Enwil/Rural Home characters.


              7.)  Earth-F;  Characters from Fox Comics, Charlton Comics Group, & possibly Holyoke.


              8.)  Earth-G;  Travis Morgan/Warlord.


              9.)  Earth-H;  Harvey & Hillman characters.


             10.)  Earth-K (Kimota);  Marvelman.


             11.)  Earth-M;  robotic Captain Marvel & other M-F Enterprises characters.


             12.)  Earth-MLJ;  Archie superhero characters.


             13.)  Earth-N;  Nedor/Better Publications/Standard Comics characters.


             14.)  Earth-P;  Prize Publications characters.


             15.)  Earth-Q;  Quality Comics Group characters.


             16.)  Earth-S;  Captain Marvel & other Fawcett Characters.


             17.)  Earth-T;  Willie Fawcett/Captain thunder.


             18.)  Earth-W;  Warren Publications characters.


             19.)  Earth-X;  Freedom Fighters.  Similar to Earth-Q other than Axis winning WW II.


             20.)  Earth-Z;  Ziff-Davis characters.


             21.)  Earth-Prime;  Real world variant.  Ultraa originated on Earth-Prime & moved to Earth-1.


             22.)  Earth-1;  Silver-age DC.  Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superman started his career as 8 year old Superboy circa 1936 or 1940.


             22.)  Earth-2;  Golden-age DC.  Kal-L/Clark Kent/Superman started as Superman circa 1935.  No Superboy career.  Red haired Alexie Luthor.  Daily Star & George Taylor.


             23.)  Earth-3;  Crime Syndicate of America; Ultraman.


             24.)  Earth-4;  Superman (& Batman) comic strips from 1940s.

           
             25.)  Earth-5;  Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superman started his career as Superman.  No Superboy career.  Bald Luthor.  Daily Planet, & Perry White.  For the most part the Supermen of Earths 2 & 5 had nearly identical adventures.  Up till around 1952 or so.  


             26.)  Earth-6;  The Superman radio show.


             27.)  Earth-7;  The Superman (& Batman) movie serials.


             28.)  Earth-8;  The George Brewer/Bessolo/Reeves tv series & possibly the Adam West Batman tv series.


             29.)  Earth-9;  Bruce Wayne/Superman with Robin sidekick.  Main weakness is "Thulium" instead of kryptonite.  Earth-9 has no Florida.


             30.)  Earth-10;  Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superman raised by Kents to be criminal.  Lex Luthor a superhero.


             31.)  Earth-11;  Earth-1 Superman "changed history" here.  


             32.)  Earth-12;  Inferior 5,  Freedom Brigade, Prez,  & other humor characters.


             33.)  Earth-13;  Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superman killed by alien energy "vampire".  Twice copied by scientists.  Both copies died.  Efforts were halted because it was harder to do each time.


             34.)  Earth-14;  Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superman who started his career as 8 year old Superboy circa 1948 or 52.


             35.)  Earth-15;  Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superman who started his career as 8 year old Superboy circa 1960.


             36.)  Earth-16;  Kal-El/Bruce Wayne/Superman,  Barbara Gordon/Batwoman.


             37.)  Earth-17;  Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superman who started his career as 8 year old Superboy circa 1968 or 72.


             38.)  Earth-18;  Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superman who started his career as 8 year old Superboy circa 1980.

             39.)  Earth-19;  Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superman who started his career as 8 year old Superboy circa 1988 or 92.


             40.)  Earth-20;  Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superboy who started his career as 8 year old circa 2000.


             41.)  Earth-21;  Kal-El/Clark Kent  about 5 years old. or so.


             And since a multiverse is at least nigh-infinite many, many, many more.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2005, 10:06:43 PM
my head is now exploding in multiple universes at the exact same time.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Super Monkey on November 15, 2005, 10:58:07 PM
from http://www.io.com/~woodward/chroma/crisis.html


Earth-1
The Silver Age. Justice League, Superman II, Flash II (Barry Allen). Largely identical in history to the real world. Almost all post-Golden Age comics through the Crisis took place here, beginning between 1945 (first appearance of Superboy) and 1955 (first appearance of the Martian Manhunter). First defined in Flash v1#123 (1961), first named in JLA v1#21 (1963).

Earth-2
The Golden Age. Justice Society, Superman I, Flash I (Jay Garrick). Largely identical in history to the real world up through the mid-70s, at which point minor differences creep in (such as South Africa becoming free decades early). Only a few post-Golden Age comics were ever set there, notably Infinity Inc., the second run of All-Star Comics, and All-Star Squadron. "Defined" and "named" info same as for E1.

Earth-4
Charlton Comics. Captain Atom, Blue Beetle. First DC appearance and named in Crisis #1.

Earth-S
Fawcett Comics. Captain Marvel (Billy Batson). First appearance in Whiz Comics #2 (1940), first DC appearance in Shazam! #1 (1973), first named in JLA v1#135 (1976).

Earth-X
Quality Comics. Freedom Fighters, Uncle Sam, the Ray. Noteworthy in that World War II continues into the 1970s. First DC appearance and named in JLA v1#107 (1973).

Earth-3
"Reversed" Earth. Crime Syndicate, Ultraman, Johnny Quick II. First suggested in JLA v1#22, first appeared in JLA v1#29, destroyed in Crisis #1.

Earth-5
Proposed name for the world seen only on pages 2 and 3 of Crisis #1. No apparent superheroes. (Note: The real reason there is no explicitly-named Earth-5 is that "5" and "S" look too much alike, particularly when hand-lettered, so that number was skipped.)

Earth-6
"A cosmic anomaly." Lady Quark, Lord Volt, Princess Fern. Only appearance in Crisis #4.

Earth-K
The name given to the future timeline of Earth-1 which Kamandi inhabited, to distinguish it from the "real" timeline which led to the Legion of Super-Heroes. First appearance in Kamandi #1, last appearance in Crisis #4. (Technically an alternate timeline, not an alternate universe.)

Qward
The antimatter universe which contains the planet Qward is usually called "Qward" itself. It is the home of the Anti-Monitor. First appearance in Green Lantern #2 (1960).

Earth-Prime
In theory, the "real world". In actuality, merely a variant Earth with very few superbeings, in which most DC Comics characters are just comic book characters. Devastated by nuclear war in the late 80s. First appearance in Flash v1#179 (1968), named in JLA v1#123 (1975). Destroyed circa Crisis #10. (Does not technically appear in Crisis, but is referred to.)

Earth-Omega
Proposed name for Pariah's home universe, the first one destroyed by the anti-matter wave. Only appearance in flashback in Crisis #7.

Earth-Sigma
Proposed name for the post-Crisis, pre-Zero Hour universe. "Sigma" for "the sum of what came before". Merger of Earths 1, 2, 4, S, and X, with characters from at least 2 others present. First appeared in Crisis #11, destroyed in Zero Hour #1.

Earth-D
The Earth that appears in - and is destroyed in - Legends of the DC Universe: Crisis on Infinite Earths (1998). It features an ethnically diverse range of heroes, and is rumored to be what Wolfman thought the DC Universe should have been like after the Crisis.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Super Monkey on November 15, 2005, 11:03:29 PM
if you really want to get crazy, check out this link: http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/time_links.html


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2005, 12:09:35 AM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
from http://www.io.com/~woodward/chroma/crisis.html


Earth-Prime
In theory, the "real world". In actuality, merely a variant Earth with very few superbeings, in which most DC Comics characters are just comic book characters. Devastated by nuclear war in the late 80s. First appearance in Flash v1#179 (1968), named in JLA v1#123 (1975). Destroyed circa Crisis #10. (Does not technically appear in Crisis, but is referred to.)

.


wasn't booster gold from a future that had a nuclear disaster in the 80's?
booster gold's from earth prime.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: dto on November 16, 2005, 12:35:21 AM
Actually the entry for Earth-Prime is incorrect.  How could Earth-Prime be devastated by a nuclear war in the late 80s, when it had already been wiped out by the Crisis in 1985?

Earth-Prime WAS destroyed by an atomic war in 1962, but thanks to the JLA, JSA and All-Star Squadron this war was not only averted, it NEVER HAPPENED.  See "Crisis on Earth-Prime!" (Justice League of America #207-209 and All-Star Squadron #15-16).  

Here's a review:

http://www.rzero.com/books/Crisis-EarthPrime.html

Now it's possible that Booster Gold came from the same Earth that had The Great Atomic War of 1986, home of The Atomic Knights and Kamandi (a later retcon).


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 16, 2005, 07:11:56 PM
Here are some more earths i imagine being in the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse:


            42.)  Earth-22;  The Superman/Aquaman/Batman cartoons from the 1960s.


            43.)  Earth23;  The Superman cartoon from the 1970s, & the Batman cartoon from the 1970s & 80s.


            44.)  Earth-24;  The "World's Greatest Superheroes" comic strip.


            45.)  Earth-25;  SuperFriends.


            46.)  Earth-26;  The Christopher Reeve Superman movies.




           Booster Gold is a post-crisis character.  


            Super Monkey, i am aware of the earth-list you posted.  And i'm also aware of the web-sites you reference.  Those sites are also engaging in fan speculation.  Nothing wrong with that btw.  My posts here are fan speculation about the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse.  To my mind Crisis & most of the events leading up to it take place in a separate multiverse.  That multiverse i call the Crisis Multiverse.  In my list i count Earth-F as the "Pre-Crisis" version of the Earth-4 of the Crisis Multiverse.  I ignored Earths 6 & D (from the Crisis Multiverse) because they were created for Crisis.  Btw you did read my entire posting before you responded?  Just curious.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Super Monkey on November 16, 2005, 09:06:11 PM
Quote
Btw you did read my entire posting before you responded? Just curious.


I read every post, I wasn't trying to correct you, just adding other lists to the thread.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 17, 2005, 07:51:04 PM
Even more "pre-crisis" earths:


             47.)  Earth-Ace;  Ace Periodicals characters.


             48.)  Earth-ACG;  American Comics Group characters.


             49.)  Earth-AF;  Ajax-Farrell characters.


             50.)  Earth-Atlas;  Atlas/Seaboard characters.


             51.)  Earth-Avon; Avon Periodicals characters.


             52.)  Earth-Centaur;  Centaur characters.


             53.)  Earth-Columbia;  Columbia Comics Group characters.


             54.)  Earth-ECP;  Eastern Color Printing characters.


             55.)  Earth-EC;  EC Comics characters.


             56.)  Earth-FH;  Fiction House characters.


             57.)  Earth-HAC;  Harry A Cheslar characters.


             58.)  Earth-King;  King Features Syndicate characters.


             59.)  Earth-L;  Lev Gleason characters.


             60.)  Earth-ME; Magazine Enterprises characters.


             61.)  Earth-S&S;  Street & Smith pulp magazine characters.


             62.)  Earth-S≻  Street & Smith Comics characters.


             63.)  Earth-Skywald;  Skywald Publications characters.


             64.)  Earth-Tower;  Tower Comics characters.


              Of course this is only what the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse would be like if i owned DC starting back in the late 70s-early 80s.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Captain Kal on November 18, 2005, 11:11:14 AM
Comments on previous entries ...

Earth-Prime was devastated by a nuclear war in the 1960s due to cross-dimensional-chronal interference by Per Degaton of Earth-2 and the Crime Syndicate of America of Earth-3.  This nuclear war was erased from history when the combined efforts of the JLA and JSA restored Earth-Prime history to its correct path.

Earth-S has besides the Marvel Family, Ibis, Spy Smasher, Bulletman, & Bulletgirl, and Kid Eternity.  Their powered Marvel Family includes Captain Marvel, Mary Marvel, Captain Marvel Jr., and the 3 Lieutenants Marvel.

Earth-SC has the Marvel Family variant Hoppy the Marvel Bunny.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 19, 2005, 01:42:35 AM
Captain Kal,  i have read that story.  As i imagine it, the timelines created by Degaton still exist.  The earth ruled by Degaton & the post-nuclear-war earth are simply divergent timelines of Earths 2 & Prime respectively.  According to current scientific theory trying to "change the past" would only result in the creation of divergent timelines.  The Pre-Crsisis DC Multiverse i imagine as a dimensional multiverse.  That is a (at least) nigh-infinite collection of parallel universes.  Universes that are separate from the beginning.  Whereas divergent timelines are part of a temporal multiverse.  A (at least) nigh-infinite collection of divergent timelines/universes that starts out as one universe that splits/branches/diverges over time.  As i imagine it temporal & dimensional multiverses are different facets of a multiverse in its entirety.  Even several billion (or even trillion) universes could be a tiny fraction of the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Gernot on November 19, 2005, 06:46:09 AM
What about the Earths that had Superman, Wonder Woman, and The Lone Ranger (!) meeting up with The Brady Kids?  

And did those meetings take place on the Batman & Robin Meet Scooby-Doo Earth???    

And upon WHICH Earth did the 1970's, non-violent, Batman cartoons (with Bat-Mite) take place???  

I LOVE this thread!  ;)


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Maximara on November 19, 2005, 07:06:26 AM
Quote from: "llozymandias"
Captain Kal,  i have read that story.  As i imagine it, the timelines created by Degaton still exist.  The earth ruled by Degaton & the post-nuclear-war earth are simply divergent timelines of Earths 2 & Prime respectively.  According to current scientific theory trying to "change the past" would only result in the creation of divergent timelines.  The Pre-Crsisis DC Multiverse i imagine as a dimensional multiverse.  That is a (at least) nigh-infinite collection of parallel universes.  Universes that are separate from the beginning.


Actually the Pre-Crisis DCU like Marvel Universe was a mixture of of both parallel universes and alternate timelines. Just as the Phoenix force was unigue to Earth-616 Oa was unique to Earth-1 in the parallel universe, but reality each had it own set of alternate timelines (Earth-616 based timelines were told in What If... while Earth-A, Earth-B, Earth-E were all alternate timelines of Earth-1)

The problem is that like over at Marvel there was no consistant marker if an Earth was an parallel universes or an alternate timeline (other than the existance of Phoenix Force or Oa) and many resembled each other. FOr example Marvel Earth-594 is an varient of DC's old Earth-X and yet during DC Challange Earth-B had a short lived timebranch that resembled Earth-X. With parallel universes and alternate timelines being shuffled around like so many card small wonder things were a mess.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Johnny Nevada on November 19, 2005, 02:33:21 PM
Quote from: "Gernot"
What about the Earths that had Superman, Wonder Woman, and The Lone Ranger (!) meeting up with The Brady Kids?  


I guess "Earth-Filmation", since Filmation produced that horrible "Brady Kids" cartoon...


Quote
And did those meetings take place on the Batman & Robin Meet Scooby-Doo Earth???    


Since Scooby's made by Hanna-barbera, no.

I'll assume it's "Earth-Scooby", since Scooby's world doesn't seem to have any superheroes besides Batman, Robin, Blue Falcon, and Dynomutt (or rather, no superpowered superheroes...which I guess befits Scooby Doo's cartoonish-meets-semi-realistic/mystery-focused setting...).

Quote

And upon WHICH Earth did the 1970's, non-violent, Batman cartoons (with Bat-Mite) take place???  


I guess Earth-Filmation again (since Filmation made those). :-)


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 19, 2005, 07:22:26 PM
Gernot;  Earth-23 would be the answer to your first & third questions.  Btw i already included that Batman cartoon as taking place there.  I would put Scooby Doo (& at least some of Hanna-barbera's super-heroes) on Eath-25.  Alongside SuperFriends.  



      Maximara;  i also said that dimensional & temporal multiverses are simply different facets of a true multiverse in its entirety.  Iow  Earth-1 (for example) is both a parallel universe & a divergent timeline.  It's a parallel universe in relation to Earths 2, 3, 12, S, X, Prime, etc..  It's a divergent timeline in relation to the earths of;  Kamandi, Tommy Tomorrow, the Legion of Super-Heroes,  Abra-Kadabra, Reverse-Flash, etc..  As for OA existing only in the Earth-1 universe, i tend to discount/ignore that.  The only place that was claimed was in Crisis.  According to current theory to travel between divergent timelines you would need to travel through hilbert space.  A nigh-infinite dimensional space that contains/separates divergent timelines.  Sounds like Hypertime, as described by DC.  With some differences, of course.  The limbo-like dimension that exists between the universes of the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse seems more like the higher-dimensional space talked about by m-theory.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Gernot on November 19, 2005, 07:26:56 PM
Heh.  It'd have to be EarthFilmation-1, 'cause there WAS a Superman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, et al. on Earth-Filmation, along with Batman.  B&R looked much like they did on THAT Earth, yet they clearly never met anyone like Scooby or Shaggy (who CLEARLY would've been one of their arch-foes' henchmen on THAT Earth!).   :D  

Superman looked a lot like he did on EarthHannaBarbara, but Wonder Woman was also clearly a different take on the character!  ;)  

And what about the Sesame Street spots?  Superman, Batman, and Robin all helped teach the pre-school set about spelling, crossing the street, and dirty windows.  :)    

And DON'T get me started on Spider-Man on Electric Company!  

Geez...  MY head's trying to explode right now, too!  LOL


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 19, 2005, 08:46:17 PM
Since a multiverse is infinite, a tiny portion could include billions (or even trillions) of universes.  One way of cataloging/listing the earths of a multiverse, would be to divide that multiverse into sectors/segments/strands.  I prefer strands.  If i owned DC (one of my favorite fantasies, btw :lol:  :twisted: ) the setup would be an infinite DC Multiverse.  The strands of which would include:


          1.)  Pre-Crisis DC;  as i have described it in this thread.



          2.)  Crisis DC;  DC's setup from the late70s/early 80s untill Crisis #10.


          3.)  Post-Crisis DC;  since a strand of universes can include billions (or trillions) of universes there is room enough here for all the DCUs & Elsewords DC has used.  Starting with the one first seen in #11 of Crisis.  Tangent can be included as one of the universes here.



          4.)  Crossover DC/Marvel;  The same-earth DC/Marvel crossovers.   Amalgam can be part of this strand.


          5.)  Wildstorm


          6.)  Star Trek;  if i owned DC & money were no object, i would buy Star Trek.  And put it into DC's multiverse.


           7.)  Image;  i would also buy out Image.


           8.)  Marvel;  another thing i would buy.


         And over time other strands would be added to the DC Multiverse.   Or DC/Marvel Multiverse if Marvel is part of it.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Captain Kal on November 19, 2005, 09:00:43 PM
The thing most folks and even scientists ignore about the QM equations is that they're time symmetric.  Not only are the universes splitting into the future, but they do so into the past as well.  IOW, from our POV, they also are capable of merging.

That was the beauty and singular claim to fame for Hypertime: Hypertimelines could merge and were the only truly consistent take on QM multiple universes in all fiction -- SF, comics, or otherwise.

Scripting universes diverging from a nexus event into the future is easy and relatively commonplace these days.

Scripting similar universes merging into a common universe in the present is an incredibly daring concept that was only hinted at in The Kingdom.  Nowhere else has this been tried, nor has it seen even a hint of its story potential.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Maximara on November 20, 2005, 04:32:43 AM
Quote from: "llozymandias"
Maximara;  i also said that dimensional & temporal multiverses are simply different facets of a true multiverse in its entirety.  Iow  Earth-1 (for example) is both a parallel universe & a divergent timeline.  It's a parallel universe in relation to Earths 2, 3, 12, S, X, Prime, etc..  It's a divergent timeline in relation to the earths of;  Kamandi, Tommy Tomorrow, the Legion of Super-Heroes,  Abra-Kadabra, Reverse-Flash, etc..  As for OA existing only in the Earth-1 universe, i tend to discount/ignore that.  The only place that was claimed was in Crisis.  According to current theory to travel between divergent timelines you would need to travel through hilbert space.  A nigh-infinite dimensional space that contains/separates divergent timelines.  Sounds like Hypertime, as described by DC.  With some differences, of course.  The limbo-like dimension that exists between the universes of the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse seems more like the higher-dimensional space talked about by m-theory.


The RPG suppliment GUPRS Infinate Worlds is a good source book to help get a handle on all this. It breaks the multiverse down into several distinct catagories:

1) Echo: Effectively your world earlier in time.

2) Close parallels: very similar to your own timeline though there are differences. Earth-B and Earth-E were close parallels to Earth-1.

3) Further parallels: major differences in history. DC's Earth-S and Earth-X were further parallels.

4) High inertia parallel: despite changes in history the world still resembles your own reality. Earth-2 and the unnamed Earth in 'Superman, you're dead, dead, dead!' were High inertia parallels.

5) Myth parallels: a reality where fictional characters or beings realy exist. Earth-2 was a 'myth parallel' to Earth-1.

Some other relevent ideas form GURPS IW:

Reality Shard:Items of great power that can distort the very fabric of reality around them. The Spear of Destiny was a reality shard.

Reality Quake: a mammoth upheaval in the very nature of reality even ltering history itself. One of the earliest modern stories was Sideways in time written by Murray Leinster in the 1930's.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 20, 2005, 07:33:44 PM
Earth-3 is the very definition of "high inertia parallel".  To the inhabitants of Earth-Prime all the parallel earths they are aware of are "myth parallels".  Echo, now why didn't i think to call it that?  I imagine such a universe to be identical to ours except for the speed/rate of time flow.  Time there could be "slower" by an infinitesmal fraction of a second.  over several billion years that would result in a universe that is days, years, decades, centuries, or even millenia "behind" us.  Echo is a good name for that.   If i could travel to such earths it would be interesting.   Given the fact that people from Earth-Prime have the ability to influence reality in other universes, maybe Earth-Prime (or its universe) is a reality shard.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: MatterEaterLad on November 20, 2005, 08:03:19 PM
The only drawback to these universes is the feeling that Superman is not from Earth, and that sometimes makes me sad, it takes him from the little kids and their imagination and thrusts him into the fanboy realm of kids that never grew up...


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 20, 2005, 08:32:01 PM
Everyone knows Superman isn't from earth. :wink:   How does that take him from little kids & their imaginations? :lol:  The thought that the fiction i read could be reality in some universe/multiverse somewhere in the omniverse makes it more fun to read.  Well it does for me anyway. :twisted:  :lol:  :wink:


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: MatterEaterLad on November 20, 2005, 08:59:00 PM
Well, its kind of like Santa, I suppose, kids read and looked up to Supes like he "could have" been been real, even knowing in the back of their mind that he wasn't...did we need an Earth Prime to take that away, especially since that turned out to be another "unreal" Earth?

Nah, its fine, I am just mostly thinking of the comics transitions in the last 50 years... 8)


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 21, 2005, 04:13:26 PM
Some other strands i would add to the DC Multiverse would include:


               1.)  Sliders.


               2.)  Doorways.


               3.)  Stargate.


         
          Of course if i owned DC, the DC/Marvel Multiverse would have many many strands.  Multiverses by definition are meant to be infinite.  Anything less is unacceptable. :roll:  :lol:  :cry:


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Super Monkey on November 21, 2005, 04:21:27 PM
Your Multiverse is getting kind of complex, perhaps what you need is some kind of crossover where most of these Earths die and everyone is killed and replace with Marvel like versions that don't make as much money and only appeal to older readers thus ruining your future readership and therefore forcing you to make lame movie deals that cost you money to get by, then about 20 years from now you can do yet another crossover which try to brings things back but not really then follow that up with say a weekly 52 issue mini that people need to get in order to understand what the heck they just read.

Now that I think about it, that's a stupid idea, so never mind.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Captain Kal on November 21, 2005, 04:30:56 PM
Dangit, Super Monkey!  That was cruel, vicious, underhanded ... and completely on the mark!

I always did think Beppo should be smarter than Krypto anywho. heh heh

Hey, did anyone mention all those Earth-1 divergent timelines from LSH Vol 2 #300 where Douglas Nolan's mutant brain, whose power could transmute his body to a near-indestructible form of iron, cast its power instead into peering into the alternate timelines?  When he finally found a world where he could be happy, one where he replaced his dead brother in the Legion, his mind transported himself bodily from his old timeline to his preferred one.

According to LSH #300, the E-1 universe arguably has its own divergent timelines associated with it.

Also, according to Superman Vol 1 #295, Kamandi's timeline is an equally legitimate future as the Legion's timeline.

http://superman.nu/tales3/costumecostume/?page=17

Let's not forget the alternate 30th century of Barry/Flash which clearly is neither the Legion's nor OMAC's/Kamandi's.  Hal/GL's future timelines seem to be divergent from those mentioned above as well.

IIRC, Schwartz had stated back then that the different methods of time travel resulted in the heroes ending up in different alternate futures as noted above.

It might not be worth cataloguing them since they're quite literally infinite in number.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 21, 2005, 05:20:17 PM
Super Monkey;  your post illustrates one of the reasons why Crisis was a mistake.  There are many reasons why a multiverse is better for DC than just one single universe.  Here are some:




            1.)   DC can have many, many, many superheroes, without any of them being just another "face" in a big crowd.  


            2.)   DC can have earth-shaking events in one title without needing to account for them in all of their titles.


            3.)   Reboots/revamps/retcons are easier.  Hawkworld & Man of steel (mini-series) would have worked better if they were set on newly created parallel earths.  


            4.)   Crossovers make more sense.  If DC "played its cards right" Tv shows & movies based on DC characters would serve as ads drawing more people to DC's titles.  






             Captain Kal;   it's not just Earth-1 that has alternate timelines.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Captain Kal on November 21, 2005, 10:28:38 PM
Agreed, of course, LLozymandias.

My objective in the previous post was two-fold.

First, I was saying that some so-called separate Earths mentioned earlier on this thread are actually variants on Earth-1 itself.

Second, while it's true that every variant has its own infinity of variants, which have their own variants, etc., Earth-1 -- by virtue of having been the mainstream DC Earth for so long -- has the most documented versions and alternatives in the books.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 25, 2005, 10:16:48 PM
Actually all parallel earths can be seen as variants of each other.



         Some more strands i would add to the DC/Marvel Multiverse:


            1.)  DR Who


            2.)  ABC;  Tom Strong & co..


            3.)  Disney;  Scroodge Mcduck & the other Disney characters.


          Basically if i owned DC & had at least nigh-infinite wealth (one of my favorite fantasies, btw) the DC (or DC/Marvel) Multiverse would be treated as being truly infinite.  And all the entertainment properties i would acquire would be constantly added in as new universes/strands of that multiverse.


         P.S.  Super Monkey feel free to move this thread to the Crisis forum if you wish.  I think it would fit better there.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Gernot on November 26, 2005, 01:29:18 AM
Ya know, I was wondering where and how our old friends Mighty Mouse and Underdog would fit in all of this?  ;)  

Underdog is much more closely "related" to Superman than Mighty, of course, what with his secret identity as mild-mannered (or, if you'd rather, "humble and lovable") Shoeshine Boy.  :D  

Then, there's also Strong Man, who's clearly a knock-off of Superman from The Mighty Heroes, but he's already been established as being from Mighty Mouse's "Earth", so who knows?  ;)  

Man, I gotta quit this now.  My head's starting to spin with all of these possiblities!  ;)


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 26, 2005, 09:20:10 AM
Gernot;  of course the earths/universes of Underdog & Mighty Mouse are in the DC Multiverse.  In my fantasy scenario anyway. :lol:  :wink:  :lol:  In a multiverse that is anywhere near infinite, there would be room for everything.  Trillions of universes would not even amount to 1% of a truly infinite multiverse. :twisted:  :lol:  :wink:


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Captain Kal on November 26, 2005, 11:06:28 AM
Just like Marvel cannot make a character live the Living Tribunal have jurisdiction over the DCU due to legal licensing issues, DC cannot properly contain any non-DC properties in their multiverse(s).

But I do believe Hanna Barbara characters are now owned by Warner and are fair game for DC adventures and multiverses.

Are Mighty Mouse and Underdog Hanna Barbara characters?


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: MatterEaterLad on November 26, 2005, 11:44:38 AM
Underdog, Tenessee Tuxedo, Klondike Kat etc, were Total Television productions, Mighty Mouse goes back a ways further, to Terry Toons, which has some connections to Marvel in comic book format...


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 26, 2005, 01:56:09 PM
Captain Kal; this thread is about what i imagine  the DC Multiverse would be like (& what it would include) if i owned DC & had nigh-infinite wealth.  If you owned DC & had nigh-infinite wealth, how would you do the DC Multiverse?  How vast would it be?  What (currently) non-DC properties would be added to it?


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Gernot on November 26, 2005, 10:06:15 PM
I think the Underdog characters (which include Tennessee Tuxedo and Commander McBragg) are from the Jay Ward Universe, and Mighty Mouse, Mighty Heroes, Deputy Dawg, et al. are from the TerryTunes Universe!  

Heh.  This HAS to be one of the funnest threads I've read here!  :D


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Great Rao on November 27, 2005, 12:28:00 PM
Quote from: "Gernot"
Ya know, I was wondering where and how our old friends Mighty Mouse and Underdog would fit in all of this?  ;)

How about adding the Mighty Mouse set of characters and the Underdog set of characters to Earth-C.  They would each be based out of separate cities, so that their original cartoon adventures could still have taken place.

Mighty Mouse was the first, Golden Age hero on Earth-C; Underdog showed up in the 1960s - his arrivel heralded a new age of heroes; Captain Carrot was added to the mix in the 1980s, the first of the modern "Zoo-Crew" generation.

I'd also like to move Krypto Mouse from Earth-1 (or Earth-B) to Earth-C and give him permanent (or permanently re-occurring) powers:  When danger threatens, Fuzzy secretly exposes himself to his hidden piece of radioactive Kryptonite to become Krypto Mouse!  There would be a lot of stories playing on the themes of him not turning back to Fuzzy in time, or turning back too soon, or threats of his piece of Kryptonite being discovered or stolen, etc.

The founding members of the JLA (Justice League of Animals) in the 1960s would be Mighty Mouse, Krypto Mouse, and Underdog.

Captain Carrot may or may not have joined the JLA later on, but if he did then he probably had a major falling out with them over some obscure philisophical nit and left to form the Zoo Crew.

:s:


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Super Monkey on November 27, 2005, 01:54:43 PM
We have finally have that Might Mouse, Hoppy the Marvel Bunny, Krypto Mouse, Underdog, and Danger Mouse crossover everyone always to see, so ok no one ever thought about until just now, but still...


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on November 27, 2005, 02:13:07 PM
Let's all hope that Streaky doesnt find THAT world. :shock:


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 27, 2005, 06:38:10 PM
I think the majority of the inhabitants of Underdog's earth are humans.  Mighty Mouse's earth i would call Earth-C-Plus.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Gernot on November 27, 2005, 07:06:03 PM
Whadday call Fearless Fly's world, John?  :)


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 28, 2005, 11:44:18 AM
Fearless Fly?  This is the first i remember hearing about this character.  Why should a multiverse that is anywhere near infinite have only 1-4 funny animal earths?


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Just a fan on November 28, 2005, 01:01:04 PM
Please don't forget Atom Ant (the super hero not the singer) and his heroic battle cry "UP AND AT EM ATOM ANT


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Gernot on November 28, 2005, 01:54:53 PM
Quote from: "llozymandias"
Fearless Fly?  This is the first i remember hearing about this character.  Why should a multiverse that is anywhere near infinite have only 1-4 funny animal earths?


THAT'S half the fun in this thread, John!  Remembering all of these wonderfully obscure characters!  ;)  

You can find out more about Fearless Fly through Google.  I'm pretty sure you'll slap your forehead, and exclaim, "Oh YEAH!  I remember that guy NOW!"   :lol:


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 28, 2005, 09:01:51 PM
Looked up Fearless Fly.  Here is why i don't remember him,  i was 3 when the cartoon started its run.  I was about 5 or 6 when it was cancelled.  I don't doubt that i watched & enjoyed it.  I just don't remember it.  Learning more about  old stories & characters is half the fun of comics.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Super Monkey on November 28, 2005, 10:07:07 PM
But, where does Batfink fit into all of this? :)


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on November 28, 2005, 10:23:26 PM
And Courageous Cat and Minute Mouse??? (Created by Bob Kane no less)


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Gernot on November 29, 2005, 03:09:17 AM
You know, all this talk of past cartoon characters made me realize how MUCH I loved some of their old theme songs/music.  I bet there's several of you who feel just as I do, so I went through my bookmarks and dug THIS site out of the ol' moth-balls.  

http://www.toontracker.com/waves/waves.htm

It's got all KINDS of cartoon theme songs (New Adventures of Superman, Mighty Heroes, Fearless Fly, Eighth Man, and many, many more!  They're all in alphabetical order, so it's easy to find your favorite in the whole bunch!  

Pour yourselves a glass of chocolate milk, click on some theme songs, and set your Way-Back Machines to the Golden Age of seven-years-old!   :lol:

Now, if you're anything like ME, you've probably ALSO got some DVDs and/or VHSes of some of these 'toons, so you're set, too!  :lol:

Enjoy yourselves!   :D


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Just a fan on November 29, 2005, 08:09:41 AM
WHat earth would we put Space Ghost and all his pals, Earth HB?


Title: Thank you very much by all the report
Post by: AerobicsInstructor on November 29, 2005, 10:41:24 AM
Thank you very much by all the report that you have given this us detailed Very Well.  Also I would like to know who was the creator of the series Liga of Justice and since I can make to have all the chapters.  

Atte.

Martín Tapia


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on November 29, 2005, 05:29:44 PM
This thread highlights why i believe DC made one of the biggest mistakes in history by getting rid of its multiverse.  DC's rationale at the time was very insulting & condescending, that their multiverse & continuity were too "confusing" for new & casual readers to ever understand.  I.e. DC was saying that new & casual readers were too stupid to figure things out.  In "millenium" Mark Waid admitted that DC's real reason was to make crossovers easier to do.  Good crossovers can be fun.  To have all of DC's characters (including characters from: Fawcett, Quality, Charlton) all on one earth makes things overcrowded.  Hundreds or thousands of super-heroes on one earth makes most of them generic.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on December 01, 2005, 12:47:41 PM
I have often seen the current DC earth referred to as Earth-0.  I sometimes like that idea.  I imagine the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as having been last seen (in our earth's DC Comics titles) sometime in the early 1980s.  I sometimes imagine the DCUs we have seen since then as being alternate timelines of Earth-0(Zero)'s temporal multiverse.  The "multiverse" was implied (during Crisis) to have 1,005-3,005 universes.  It was claimed that Krona's experiment unleashed forces that caused the "Earth-1" universe to be duplicated several hundred (or thousand) times.  According to current theory the splitting/branching/diverging of universes/timelines in a temporal multiverse is a natural ongoing process.  What if those forces (or whatever was triggered/unleashed by Krona's experiment) manipulated the natural divergence process for a fraction of a second.  It prevents OA from being "duplicated" in the timelines/universes created in that fraction of a second.  And it "links/binds" those timelines/universes making them seem like a small dimensional multiverse of their own.  It also causes those timelines/universes to develope into almost perfect copies of some of the Pre-Crisis universes.  When the Anti-Monitor (& the heroes) faught at the "dawn of time" they caused/inspired those forces to create yet more timelines/universes.  Those being the Post-Crisis DCUs.


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on December 09, 2005, 03:21:30 PM
To simplify my previous post.  I sometimes imagine Earth-0/Zero (the current DCU) as another parallel universe in the DC Multiverse.  I also sometimes imagine all the DCUs seen since the early 80s as alternate/divergent timelines/universes of Earth-0/Zero's temporal multiverse. :wink:  :lol:


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: Gernot on December 09, 2005, 06:03:32 PM
John, wasn't Oa duplicated at least ONCE?  I thought that Legends Of The DC Universe (Annual?) that it had an Oa, too.  I think it was called Earth-4, and was destroyed between Crisis 4 and Crisis 5 (hence its nickname Crisis 4.5).  

Didn't that Green Lantern (for his brief career) get his ring from The Guardians?  

Gernot...


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: dto on December 10, 2005, 03:02:24 AM
Gernot, you're thinking of "Earth-D", from "Legends of the DC Universe: Crisis on Infinite Earths, the Untold Story" (February 1999).  See this annotated summary:

http://www.io.com/~woodward/chroma/cr4_5.html

Captain Jose Hernandez (formerly of the Brazilian Air Force) was the Green Lantern of Sector 5134 (Earth-1 was in Sector 2814) for only a few brief hours before he was slain by a shadow demon and Earth-D died.  Yet he had some of the best lines --  questioning Firestorm over the naming of Earth-1 ("Somewhat egotistical, isn't it?"  Firestorm's response:  "Don't blame me -- I didn't name it!"), and a sobering realization:

"I'm the new Green Lantern!

"My first mission is to save the universe from destruction.

"What will the Guardians expect for an ENCORE?"   :shock:

Sadly, Capt. Hernandez never had a chance for that "encore", and he didn't save the Earth-D universe.  But his dying act saved Supergirl, who would later destroy the Anti-Monitor's machines that were merging the five remaining Earths.  Without Kara, Superman might well have been killed by the Anti-Monitor and the last Earths destroyed, so in a sense the Green Lantern of Earth-D DID fulfill his mission, though not in a way he (or Earth-D) would have preferred...


Title: Re: The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse as i imagine it.
Post by: llozymandias on December 10, 2005, 11:34:17 AM
Gernot; the Earth-4 introduced in Crisis was home to the Charlton characters.  It could be that the Monitor lied about there being only one OA in the Crisis Multiverse.  Or some of the Guardians left OA & moved to the Earth-D universe.  They simply named their new home OA in honor of their old home.  



      Thinking about my previous two posts a little further, i see how flawed my idea there is.  However Earth-O/Zero (or whatever name it finally gets) as a universe in the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse is workable.  Each parallel universe in a dimensional multiverse is also a divergent timeline of a temporal multiverse.  And each divergent timeline in a temporal multiverse is also a parallel universe in a dimensional multiverse.  If all the DCUs seen since the early 1980s are divergent timelines of the current Earth-DC (or Earth-Zero), they are timelines that diverged about 10 billion or so years ago.  The Crisis Multiverse would be a dimensional multiverse that intersects with one of those timelines.  The Earth-1 of the Crisis Multiverse is a divergent timeline of the Earth-DC of the current DCU.