Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Lex Luthor is best done as an evil super-genius super-scientist, whose main desire/ambition is to own/dominate/control/rule everyone & everything in existance.  The best motive for his hatred of Superman?  Superman is the main obstacle to Lex achieving his goals.  Plus Superman keeps sending Lex back to prison.

I hate the "Lex Luthor, businessman" that John Byrne introduced, which was basically swiped from Daredevil's ongoing fight with the Kingpin. To me, Lex should be the guy in the purple-and-green pyjamas, who poses a real threat to Superman without being a really bad guy for all that. They keep sending him to prison, and he stays there for as long as he likes, but no longer.

He's crazy. He hates Superman and wants to kill him. Apart from that, he's a pretty decent guy, who just happens to be the most intelligent man on Earth, and would spend his time searching for the cure for AIDS if it weren't for his personality disorder.

If you think about it on a mythic level, it's actually pretty disappointing that Luthor's intellect always loses to Superman's brawn... Is this really the message we want to pass on to our children?

Grant Morrison's All-Star version of him is pretty dead on Perfect., IMHO.

Lex isn't the most intelligent . He could be .  He is a character trapped by his tragic flaw, jealousy of Superman.  he hates him. He cant control Superman like he controls so many others.
In the real world Lex would hardly ever go to jail. Did Reagan? Did Nixon?Did Clinton? Did Bush's daddy? Did GW Bush? ok the last one is still pending. ( Oh heck I like that crazy Texan anyway!)
The rich and powerful seldom take the fall. While the poor and weak go to jail early and often for crimes they never commit.
But in comics we have superman and super justice.
Lex is a criminal genius and a scientific genius. Financially and business wise he's good, but surrounds himself with expert advisors behind the scenes.  The Lois and Clark tv show and the Byrne  Super-Trump biz guy Luthor is a different story, but I like it better than the SUper friends /leagion of doom Luthor .   Brawn over mind. The complete man is a combination of strength in body, mind, and spirit. Luthor's mind is in the upper 95% of the world , but his soul and spirit are dark and corrupted.
This limits him and trips him up time and again. In short LL is his own worst enemy.  As seen in alternate earth versions of Alex Luthor , he could've been a hero.

also,
most people would probably like Lex Luthor if they met him. He give to PETA and other charities . He's a benefactor to many causes. He's sophisticated and classy. Like a Rapper-Star he's living Large!
His public image is likable. He'd probably be a good parent to. But his secret side is more sinister. Clark and Lois know, as does Bruce but many think those things are just rumors started by a vast anti -luthor conspiracy.

Interestingly in the tv series , he's absoulutely different ("Smallville" WB tv) .  He's innocent at first, the victim of being the son of a ruthless, tyrant business mogul, Lionel Luthor (who has a VERY shady past).
He's the victim of dysfunctional family too. He has few real friends except this one guy a farmboy who has some secret which he just won't share with his best buddy Lex.
Lex believes he is destined for greatness, but is Clark a threat to his future plans to be President of the US?
keep your friends close and your enemies closer and the unknown ones closest of all!

The businessman Lex wore thin rather quickly.  The silver age version had much more possibilities than the Byrne version had.

Luthor was created by Jerry Siegel & Joe Shuster.  Jerry wrote him as an evil super-genius who wanted to conquer the universe.  Why are so many fans & pros opposed to Luthor being evil? Or a megalomaniac?  Or a super-genius super-scientist?  Why the desire to marginalize Luthor into a mere background character?  Even the most evil beings can be nice, decent, & loving towards friends & family.  Btw in most pre-crisis stories Lex vs Kal is not brains against brawn.  It's brains against brains.

I'll admit, I enjoyed how the Animated Series handled Lex..   Personally, I like the idea of Lex using his intelligence to make a gigantic fortune legally...

...Of course, I'd have him turn around and then use that money to fund the operation of a huge super-scientific Mafia-style criminal organisation.  Like an Ultra-Scientific Mob Boss.  And while he might regularly get sent to prison, I see him buying or lawyering his way out as often as breaking out through scientific genius.

Still, my point is that I think Lex is smart enough to realize he can make a lot more money legally then illegally, but also arrogant enough to believe he's above the law, and act accordingly.  I also see him as utterly sociopathic, doing some things largely because it interests him, no matter how savagely criminal they may seem.  He'd easily justify abusing other people as "natural superiority."

As for his motivation for hating Superman, I have a very simple one: he doesn't like seeing ANYONE with more power then he does not being under his thumb.  If he can't control Superman, he'll kill him.

I think the 1990s Animated series and Birthright got Lex down perfectly. There's no reason that Lex can't be both a brilliant scientist and The Man Who Owns Metropolis (so to speak). And I love the way that Lex has been written in the JLU cartoon.

Lex hates Superman.

For one they have a history and are in some ways closer to Superman than anybody else even Lois or  Ma Kent.  He's tried to kill Superman repeatedly but would probably miss him if he ever succeeded.
There is a thin line between love and hate.
Superman is good. Very good. Not perfect but most of the time nearly so. He is not corrupted by his near demigodlike power. Though he could, he does not choose to sit on a throne and rule a world as say Mongul did at Warworld.  Lex thinks Superman is a Liar and a Phony ,hiding behind a facade of goodness. Lex knows Lex Luthor is corrupt. He believes everybody is corrupted by enough power or temptation. Everybody has his price and when payed they will become the same greedy, power-grabbing, ravenous animal that Lex believes every human being is at heart.    So when Superman takes the high moral ground to say his purpose is truth, justice and so on, Lex thinks he is lying. He just seems holier than thou to Lex.  So Lex is determined to show the world that Superman is corrupt and bad. That he is an alien threat.  That Superman is doing it all only for his own self interests. and most of all that the general public's love, respect and hero-worship of Superman is something that Superman is not worthy of.
Lex wants them to worship him and fear him instead.

It's very reasonable to think that a super-genius like Lex would resort to crime only as a last resort.  I imagine pre-crisis Earth-1 silver-age Lex Luthor being a multi-billionaire (or even multi-trillionaire).  Inventions patented under aliases.  As well as investment income.  Just imagine how many businessmen (& women) on Earth-1 could turn out to be "owned" by Lex Luthor.

The Luthor in the Superman animated series seemed to view masterminding crimes as a game/sport/hobby.  Something he did for fun.  I think one of the real world reasons for Luthor (throughout most of the silver-age) wearing only his prison uniform was the comics code authority.  DC could have been afraid to put Lex in a suit.  Might have made him look like a businessman.  I believe the comics code forbade depicting government/law officials & businesspeople as being crooks.

I loved the LEXMAS episode of Smallville tv series on WB from Dec. 8 2005.  That showed what Lex Luthor is really all about in the last minute of the episode.  POWER, MONEY, and the ABILITY TO CONTROL PEOPLE . he also believes the myth that if you have enough of the 3 above you can buy joy and peace.  You can buy things you think will make you happy but it won't guarantee you'll stay happy or give you real satisfaction or joy.  Nevertheless, the way to seek power is to crush those in your way beneath your boot, as you climb up the ladder of success. Ignore your conscience and it will go away. Just grab more power. But enough power or money is never enough and you are always left unsatisfied and wanting. So Lex had a turning point as a young man and is on his way to the adult Lex we love to hate. Lex is dedicated to destroy anybody who gets in the way of his ruling the world. First as senator of Kansas and eventually...the white house and beyond.  Now we have Lex as villain and politician and businessman.  Now it gets interesting.

At the pace that Smallville is going, any decade now... :?

probably it will get cancelled in 1 year. actors want to do more movies.

Yeah, that's how I see Luthor as well..  He's brilliant enough to make billions legally, or semi-legally.  Why commit acts of super-villainy for profit?  I do think that his acts of mastermind villainy should be something he does to entertain himself, rather then something he does out of necessity.  ...Which frankly, only makes it more evil.

...And expanding on that, what if Luthor's motives for wanting to destroy Superman wasn't really hatred for what Superman represents?  What if, instead, he sees Superman as the ultimate challenge for a being of his intellect?  Sort of a "I never knew failure until I faced Superman..  I've never been challenged like this."

In the animated series pilot Luthor ( like in the "man of steel" mini-series) tried to recruit superman.  He saw him as a potential asset in achieving his long-term goals.  His early plans involved trying to control Superman.  When that didn't work, Lex decided to kill him instead.  How about this?  Lex hates Kal, because Kal is Lex's biggest obstacle.  But, at the same time Lex enjoys the challenge Kal represents.  Basically Lex wants his victory to be a monument to his genius.

Superman is Yin
Lex is Yang

that's lex's modus operandi

seize power any way possible
this includes corruption, temptation, seduction and bribery
He believes everybody has their price and for the right amount or price anybody can be made to do the exact opposite of what their morals tell them to do.
Anybody who rejects his bribes like Lois or Superman are only telling lies.
They don't really have higher morals that prevent them from compromising. Nobody is that pure, reasons Lex.
He thinks Superman is being self-righteous when he rejects Luthor's offer of employment. He thinks Superman is planning to use his super powers instead to rule mankind, not help them altruistically.
1. The love of money is the root  of all evil
2. Money is a shadow of power over people and power to get people to do things.
3. The love of power is the root of evil too.
4. once you get enough power, enough is never enough: greed and lust
5. power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

This is what drives Lex. he lusts for money and power. He simply cannot believe Superman's power has not corrupted him.
In this way Superman is a type or figure of the Lord Jesus Christ who was tempted in all things yet without sin and who when the Tempter offered him all the power of the kingdoms of the world ( if he would only worship Satan),
he responded:
" Get behind me, (Get lost!) Satan! For it is written, you shall worship the Lord your God and Him only will you serve."

In that JLA/Avengers crossover Kurt Busiek at one point had Dr. Doom attempt to gain access to the Source.  He almost succeeded.  Lex Luthor should be doing things like that.  The best Luthor stories are when he has big goals & does big things.  Like "the man who stole the sun.".  Lex Luthor when done right should have many goals.  Destroying Superman should be only one of his objectives.

Agreed. Lex is a "man of tomorrow" himself, a being so intelligent that humans will not ascend to his level for a very, very long time (if ever). I've always liked the idea that Lex would've been the greatest human being ever if Superman had never come to Earth. It's really mythic.

I liked that story where Lex finds a cure for cancer, but I can't remember the name or what comic it was in.

One of the things I really disliked about the post-Boot Lex was that the public-at-large thought that Luthor was a nice guy, a humanitarian-type; while only Superman knew that Lex was really a manipulating scum-bucket.

I much prefer it when the public-at-large thinks that Lex is an irredeemable scum bucket; yet Superman always gives Lex the benefit of the doubt (where no one else would) and continuously holds out hope that Luthor could redeem himself at any moment and is really a good guy at heart.  I have only seen Elliot Maggin and Grant Morrison treat the characters in this way.

I hope we see more of it.

:s:

   

Was that in either "Death of Superman" or "The Story of Superman-Red and Superman-Blue"?

The first chapter of the "Death of Superman", is just for cancer. "The Story of Superman-Red and Superman-Blue" is all illness-even Luthor's bald head.

I agree with NotSuper.

i must have mixed the 2 in my memory. I read both the death of superman and the red and bllue story.   Over the years I only remember parts of them. But they were mighty stories to fuel the imagination and multiply dreams. Those were some great stories. The current crisis is on par with those days I think. Masterpiece work!

Thanks.  :)

Luthor (when done right) will still do good things once in a while.  That does not make a misguided good guy though.  Even the most evil beings can do good.  When it suits their purposes.  I don't see Lex doing something because it's evil.  He has reasons for what he does.  When Lex (in the silver/bronze-age) commited a crime (like robbing a bank) it seemed like he did it to get Superman's attention.  Basically Lex had a new anti-superman weapon, and wanted to try it out against Superman.  Also it could be that Lex wanted Kal & the authorities to believe that crime was Lex's sole source of income.

As of now I like Luthor as the Dr. Doom esque character (HAH Dr. Doom was a RIP-OFF of luthor)

But I just want the mad scientist who..

1. DOES NOT ROB BANKS with a giant robot which COSTS more (in production) than the money he just robbed

2. DOES NOT want to use his science to go TOE TO TOE with Superman, That's stupid logic based on Human terms, he should use his wits to beat supes by OTHER means not direct effect, since he's already intellectually superior, It doesn't make sense to give superman a TARGET (i'll extrapolate this later)

3. Makes Superman should find more ways to entrap luthor other than prison because that revolving door concept is TOO MUCH even for suspension of disbelief.. so what say I'm supes I know Luthor getting out of prison is always an easy way (he can even make an escape plan by using a mere bubble gum and it's packaging), so I have to find other means of him being a threat to humanity (each time he gets out).. that makes sense.

Elliot Maggin's Last Son of Krypton depicting Lex as a Mad Scientist surface and secreteley a businessman is SPOT ON PERFECT!! however Children's format superman books think it's way too sophisticated to explain this..

When Lex robs banks it's mostly to get Kal in range of Lex's latest anti-superman weapon.  Also it could be that Lex enjoys robbing banks.  Maybe it's a hobby/game to him.  Also if Kal & the authorities think Lex get's all of funding through crime, they are less likely to find & stop his real sources of income.



         The reason Lex wants to go "toe to toe" with Kal is ego.  Lex wants to be the one to destroy Superman.



         Kal is not in charge of the criminal justice system.  Where could Kal put Lex if not in prison?  The Phantom Zone?  Bad idea.  Lex has the means to escape from there.  Most likely he has a phantom zone projector of his own programmed to respond to his thoughts.  If he ever gets trapped there.  Lex does have the technology to access the phantom zone.



         I do see Lex as both an evil super-genius super-scientist & a secret businesman.  The wealth that someone of Lex's genius could accumulate through legal patents & investments (under aliases of course), would make any money he can get through crime look like pocket change.  If not for the Comics Code Authority Lex would most likely have been depicted that way throughout the silver/bronze-age.

To me, Lex should always be diametrically opposed to Superman in every possible way. They both have roots in Smallville, but after that their lives go in very different directions after Lex's bungled experiment and his denial of his own fault in his baldness drive him over the edge.

 Superman relies (primarily) on his phyiscal might. Lex is a man of intellect.

 Superman came from a farmer's background, rose among the people and has strong roots in the working class that he draws upon as a source of inner strength. Lex despises the working class he rose from and built a multi-billion dollar corporation partly from spite to that background and partly from sheer boredom.

 Superman lives to help others and keep the world safe and orderly. Lex lives to help himself and enjoys making Superman's world chaotic.

 Superman reveres life. Lex sees life as inconsequential save when it's his own.

 Superman needs Lex because Lex reminds him of what he could do with his abilities if he walked a selfish, self-serving path. Superman believes deeply that he could redeem his friend, make him the good man he truly could be. He considers Lex his friend despite every attempt on his life, despite every evil scheme. Superman is never angry with Lex, just saddened by him. And that makes Lex crazy. Bad enough this alien, this freak of nature upstages his natural genius at every possible turn, worse still that people flock to this abomination rather than the natural human genius of Lex Luthor, but the fact that this spit-curled godling has the nerve to care, to still want to save him, to still think he's worth saving. . .it drives him mad(and secretly makes the Greatest Criminal Mind of our Time wonder if maybe--just maybe--he really is on the wrong path).

 Bruce Timm and Paul Dini once said the best Superman stories come from the notion that Superman uses his power (which represents the power we all have) responsibly, and his best adventures come from the notion of running into beings that use their power irresponsibly. Nowhere is this more evident than in the character of Lex Luthor, a man who could do so much good, but can't and won't because he doesn't see anything beyond his own wants, needs, and obsessions.

 Just my $0.02 and change, for what it's worth. :)

 -Def.

As much as I'm hating the Kingpin Luthor these days he does have one advantage over Dr Wily Luthor..

Superman is Good personified, Luthor is evil personified
Supes has physical powers used for good, Luthor has social powers used for ill

ego or not, Wily Luthor wanting to go toe to toe with supes is a sign of envy, and it makes him look laughable, I'm already smarter why not use that.

Well Phantom zone or any other prison would still be better (or take lex longer to escape) than just gold bars..

and BTW even the pre-Crisis DCU humans are not that all nincompoops, they figured a better way to cage a lunatic who's always escaping.. it's basic math.

My favorite portrayal of Luthor was in Maggin's "Luthor's Gift." He sort of combined every version of the character and it worked very well.

Superman is superhuman. While Lex is all too human. His fears drive him but he would like others to think he is fearless. He fears that an alien can never be trusted.  He is either to be enslaved and controlled or destroyed.
Lex who once would have been satified to rule the world by controlling the strings of world power from behind the scenes and let some puppet ruler take the spotlight, has changed in modern times. Now he wants to be President (and he was for a while) of the USA and more. He wants a degree of recognition type power as well as behind the scenes power.

One thing I hate about Pre-crisis Luthor is that his goals most of the time ae LIMITED to simply destroying superman, that's what Kinfpin Lex has over him.

Post-Supes and Lex are more Yin vs Yang in dynamic as opposed to Pre-Supes and Lex

Pre-Crisis Luthor was an evil super-genius super-scientist.  Originally his main goal was to conquer the universe.  Starting with earth, of course.  Prior to the 70s destroying Superman was one of his main goals.  Lex saw Kal as the main obstacle to Lex being able to do much of anything.  Lex still dreamed of conquest.  In the 70s, destroying Superman became Lex's only goal.  That was when Lex's reason for hating Kal became "you made me lose my hair".  



     Also by this time Dc's writers seemed to be completely unable/unwilling to do cosmic stories.  Marvel at least had (& still has) Galactic Empires.  And certain writers (like Elliot S Maggin) at DC tried to limit everything "cosmic" to the Milky Way galaxy.  The Guardians (& the Green Lantern Corps) lose stature if they only operate in one galaxy.  Hal's bosses called themselves "the Guardians of the UNIVERSE" for a reason.

Going back to businessman Luthor, I think the concept works as long as Luthor is brought down by Superman. It was a mistake to basically have the two characters locked in a stalemate for two years--it made them BOTH look ineffectual.

I think the reason that they did wait so long is simple: they didn't know where to take the character once he fell. There was no real "exit strategy" for Luthor. Maggin handled moving Luthor from businessman villain to known villain in "Luthor's Gift."

I've considered the many possibilities for the Luthor character (and there are quite a few) and found that Maggin's take on the character in "Luthor's Gift" is my favorite. If I were writing the Superman comics (and, Rao willing, someday I will) I'd strongly consider using Maggin's version.

Rugal, you should read Eliot Maggin's Last Son of Krypton to find up what Superman has really been preventing Lex from doing all these years! :D