Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Superman Comic Books! => Superman! => Topic started by: RedSunOfKrypton on December 05, 2005, 09:35:17 AM



Title: Al Franken
Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on December 05, 2005, 09:35:17 AM
Anbody else think he could be Clark Kent in this picture? I mean with different hair and 20 years younger.

(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/5008/alfranken872iq.jpg)


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Super Monkey on December 05, 2005, 09:38:11 AM
please don't turn this into a thread about politics.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on December 05, 2005, 09:40:39 AM
Meh heh? :?


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on December 05, 2005, 09:53:55 AM
20 years ago on old SNLs Franken had frizzy, 'fro like hair.  

Steve Allen was more a possibility - one that was explored in the Superman daily strip[s and reprinted in the 25th Annvsy Silver Superman annual

I did see Steve take his glasses off one day on TV and darn if he didnt look like Geo Reeves - simply uncanny!


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: nightwing on December 05, 2005, 10:10:17 AM
"I'm going to be Earth's protector.  Because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and...goshdarnit...people like me!"


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: JulianPerez on December 05, 2005, 02:06:11 PM
I'll support Franken as Superman ONLY if they let Gilda Radner be Wonder Woman.  

I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned this before on this thread:

How about a young Ralph Nader? Elliot Maggin made this joke already. Somebody asks Superman who his secret identity was. "Was it Ralph Nader?" They ask.

Like many throwaway lines in Maggin's work, this was a surprisingly astute observation. Ralph had the height, the eye color, the hair, and a sort of "protect and serve" job as a consumer protection advocate.

It made me look at Ralph a little funny every time he showed up on television.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: laurel on December 18, 2005, 10:36:41 AM
uh.. put some horn-rims on Al Gore and you've got it. :)


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Avilos on December 18, 2005, 11:09:56 PM
How about Lex Luthor? He played him in a SNL "Death of Superman" skit back in 1992.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v396/Avilos/FrankenLuthor.jpg)


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: NotSuper on December 20, 2005, 08:36:56 AM
I've always thought that Clark Kent should be Jewish (as a nod to his creators). If I had control over his history, I'd have Jonathan Kent be Jewish and Martha Kent be a Protestant. In fact, I have an entire backstory for that idea.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Super Monkey on December 20, 2005, 11:49:06 AM
Quote from: "NotSuper"
I've always thought that Clark Kent should be Jewish (as a nod to his creators). If I had control over his history, I'd have Jonathan Kent be Jewish and Martha Kent be a Protestant. In fact, I have an entire backstory for that idea.


Well, a friend of mine did a story like that about Kal-El long lost brother Sar-El. I have a copy of the comic right in front of me.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: NotSuper on December 20, 2005, 04:49:08 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Quote from: "NotSuper"
I've always thought that Clark Kent should be Jewish (as a nod to his creators). If I had control over his history, I'd have Jonathan Kent be Jewish and Martha Kent be a Protestant. In fact, I have an entire backstory for that idea.


Well, a friend of mine did a story like that about Kal-El long lost brother Sar-El. I have a copy of the comic right in front of me.

Interesting. One thing I've always wanted to do is explore Superman's religious beliefs (both Terran and Kryptonian). I've come up with some different forms of Raoism (Classic, Neo, Helio, and Machina) and a religion based solely on Kryp and Tonn.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Super Monkey on December 20, 2005, 05:03:37 PM
Quote from: "NotSuper"
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Quote from: "NotSuper"
I've always thought that Clark Kent should be Jewish (as a nod to his creators). If I had control over his history, I'd have Jonathan Kent be Jewish and Martha Kent be a Protestant. In fact, I have an entire backstory for that idea.


Well, a friend of mine did a story like that about Kal-El long lost brother Sar-El. I have a copy of the comic right in front of me.

Interesting. One thing I've always wanted to do is explore Superman's religious beliefs (both Terran and Kryptonian). I've come up with some different forms of Raoism (Classic, Neo, Helio, and Machina) and a religion based solely on Kryp and Tonn.


ya wanta read it?

Be warned, it uses the dreaded Bryne Krypton, but frankly the story wouldn't work using the Sliver Age version.

It would be a fun story to have on this site.
But that would be up to the Great one.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: NotSuper on December 20, 2005, 05:23:39 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Quote from: "NotSuper"
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Quote from: "NotSuper"
I've always thought that Clark Kent should be Jewish (as a nod to his creators). If I had control over his history, I'd have Jonathan Kent be Jewish and Martha Kent be a Protestant. In fact, I have an entire backstory for that idea.


Well, a friend of mine did a story like that about Kal-El long lost brother Sar-El. I have a copy of the comic right in front of me.

Interesting. One thing I've always wanted to do is explore Superman's religious beliefs (both Terran and Kryptonian). I've come up with some different forms of Raoism (Classic, Neo, Helio, and Machina) and a religion based solely on Kryp and Tonn.


ya wanta read it?

Be warned, it uses the dreaded Bryne Krypton, but frankly the story wouldn't work using the Sliver Age version.

It would be a fun story to have on this site.
But that would be up to the Great one.

I'd like to read it. I don't really mind if it uses the sterile Krypton--provided the story is good.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Super Monkey on December 20, 2005, 07:10:44 PM
Quote from: "NotSuper"

I'd like to read it. I don't really mind if it uses the sterile Krypton--provided the story is good.


Actually, if you hate that Krypton, then you might like it even more, LOL. I don't think he liked it at all himself.

Here is the cover: http://www.geocities.com/rami_efal/brother650.jpg

Here is the webpage for the comic:
http://www.geocities.com/rami_efal/brother.html


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: NotSuper on December 21, 2005, 12:21:41 AM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Quote from: "NotSuper"

I'd like to read it. I don't really mind if it uses the sterile Krypton--provided the story is good.


Actually, if you hate that Krypton, then you might like it even more, LOL. I don't think he liked it at all himself.

Here is the cover: http://www.geocities.com/rami_efal/brother650.jpg

Here is the webpage for the comic:
http://www.geocities.com/rami_efal/brother.html

I wouldn't say that I HATED it. It just didn't interest me nearly as much as the utopian Krypton. It was too much like a combination of THX 1138 and Solaria (from the Asimov novels). Besides, the dystopia concept was overused in the 80's--and I'm usually a fan of dystopias, too.

Anyway, thanks for the link.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Psybertrack on December 22, 2005, 03:42:44 AM
or why not Jerry Sienfeld as Superman or maybe Nicholas Cage as superman?


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Great Rao on December 22, 2005, 10:04:45 AM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
It would be a fun story to have on this site.
But that would be up to the Great one.

And to the story's author/artist.

:s:


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on December 22, 2005, 10:29:29 AM
Hey that was good Channukah story~ Thanks, Beppo!


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Super Monkey on December 22, 2005, 10:50:36 AM
Quote from: "Great Rao"
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
It would be a fun story to have on this site.
But that would be up to the Great one.

And to the story's author/artist.

:s:


If you wanted to add it, I thought just a link to it from here:

https://www.supermanthroughtheages.com/a/tales-links.php

Rather than host it.

It was created for a Art Gallery show and one of the senior editors at DC did in fact read it and has a copy.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on December 22, 2005, 03:32:39 PM
Personally I think religion has no place in a comic about a man who's the hero of a world so divided. To each their own I guess.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Super Monkey on December 22, 2005, 04:54:34 PM
I guess that meant you didn't read it, none of the Kryptonians including Superman was Jewish in the comic.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: NotSuper on December 22, 2005, 09:43:10 PM
Quote from: "RedSunOfKrypton"
Personally I think religion has no place in a comic about a man who's the hero of a world so divided. To each their own I guess.

I'm not religious myself, but I don't have any problem with religion being in comics. I thought Maggin handled it well--he thought about this stuff a lot and even included it in a few of his stories (like Miracle Monday). As long as someone doesn't use it to promote their own beliefs, but instead to tell a good story, I think it's a good idea.

But you're right: to each his own. I can respect that point of view.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on December 23, 2005, 06:57:54 PM
Quote
I guess that meant you didn't read it, none of the Kryptonians including Superman was Jewish in the comic.
I read it, I just didn't really like some parts of it. My opinion was general, not specifically regarding that particular comic, it just brought it to mind. As for that comic: the art was pretty good, not my favorite style and lacking in colour but it was suiting to the story, and the writing was alright. I really hate the Byrned Krypton, and my stomach was turned at how easily the*spoiler*





Golem popped off Lara's head like a zit (I say easily from the disregard to life standpoint not the physical strength standpoint; I have no problem with a golem being strong). I didn't like the font, it was hard to read in a couple places but that's just a nitpick. As a comic I guess it was 6.5/10 IMO, but I admire the effort.

Quote
As long as someone doesn't use it to promote their own beliefs, but instead to tell a good story, I think it's a good idea.
I like that, I just don't like comics going overboard with religious stories. If I wanted to read religious comics I'd pick up the local church gazette.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Super Monkey on December 23, 2005, 09:21:54 PM
Quote
As for that comic: the art was pretty good, not my favorite style and lacking in colour but it was suiting to the story, and the writing was alright.


He is not a superhero guy, most of his comics feature normal people, for which his style fits perfectly. The graytones where not done with Photoshop or ink washes but rather actual lighting! He draws each panel as a separate piece, then sets up the pages and lights them and photographed them to get those effects. I never heard of anyone making comics that way, so I am pretty sure he created the technique.

Quote
Golem popped off Lara's head like a zit (I say easily from the disregard to life standpoint not the physical strength standpoint; I have no problem with a golem being strong).


That's how the character was in the myth. however for me what was more disturbing was not the decapitation, which you really didn't see, but the fact that it happen because Lara was going to kill her own son after she found out that he wasn't really from Krypton and of course Jor-El's reaction when he found out what happen to his wife. Again, they stay true to the Bryne versions.

Quote
I didn't like the font, it was hard to read in a couple places but that's just a nitpick


The comic was made for an art gallery show, there the pages were much larger so it wasn't an issue, but when it was struck to a mini comic it became one.

Quote
I like that, I just don't like comics going overboard with religious stories. If I wanted to read religious comics I'd pick up the local church gazette.


True but the whole thing was done rather tongue and cheek, it's pure satire, the title invokes old B-Movies. Superman's creators were Jewish and names like Jor-El and Kal-El are very Jewish sounding. In fact the boy's name Sar-El was used because it sounded and looks like a "Kryptonian" name, just google it to see where it came from. The Golem was one of the original Jewish superheroes, so it seem only natural to put him in a story about Superman. Indeed, when one of the head editors at DC saw the comic the 1st thing he did was laugh.

It's not really religious story but rather one that is having fun with these points.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: JulianPerez on December 23, 2005, 10:59:11 PM
Not to disregard your concept, NotSuper, which might be interesting, however, there's something about Krypton that doesn't jibe well with the presence of complicated religion. When religion IS mentioned, it is usually in the context of 1) being in the past, or 2) superstition that is an obstacle that our Atomic Supermen scientist heroes have to overcome, as in Bridwell's KRYPTON CHRONICLES where the technocrats cuckold the theocrats.

Krypton was intended to be a Hugo Gernsback-type world involving a high-tech future. This generally does not fit in with the universes created by writers in that vein, because generally such science fiction worlds tend to be atheistic. Things changed in the 1950s and 1960s with writers like Ray Bradbury expressing religious longing in "He Just Left" and the use of religion as a political force, as was done in DUNE. However, when religion shows up at all in the art deco science fiction vein that Krypton emulates, it usually is made to be fraudulent with a secret behind it, as in Burroughs' Mars books.

In general, though, the writers knew what they were doing when they barely touched religion in Krypton worldbuilding. The exception is on idols and ancient deities, which like the weird-sounding gods in FLASH GORDON, added to the exoticism of Krypton.

I also wouldn't agree with the premise that Superman ought to be Jewish because his creators were Jewish, because in the case of Superman the influence of their ethnicity on the character itself is negligible. Would Superman be the same person if he was created by say, Italian immigrants? He would be different, but not TOO different. Contrast that with, say, Will Eisner's THE SPIRIT, a series that is much more semitic in behavior, appearance, influence, and outlook.

Here's a question: what religion would the Varasto island natives practice?


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Permanus on December 24, 2005, 05:33:46 AM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
I also wouldn't agree with the premise that Superman ought to be Jewish because his creators were Jewish, because in the case of Superman the influence of their ethnicity on the character itself is negligible. Would Superman be the same person if he was created by say, Italian immigrants? He would be different, but not TOO different. Contrast that with, say, Will Eisner's THE SPIRIT, a series that is much more semitic in behavior, appearance, influence, and outlook.

I have to thank you for the vision that just popped into my head of Martha Kent as an Italian Mamma, plying young Clark with pasta and decorating the walls with photographs of his First Holy Communion.

Good point about the essential Jewishness of The Spirit, too: I've often thought how striking it is that though the main cast of characters, from Denny Colt to Dolan, have Irish or English surnames, they are all unmistakably Jewish somehow -- even Ebony White.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: NotSuper on December 25, 2005, 12:14:00 PM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
.I also wouldn't agree with the premise that Superman ought to be Jewish because his creators were Jewish, because in the case of Superman the influence of their ethnicity on the character itself is negligible. Would Superman be the same person if he was created by say, Italian immigrants? He would be different, but not TOO different. Contrast that with, say, Will Eisner's THE SPIRIT, a series that is much more semitic in behavior, appearance, influence, and outlook.

Technically, he'd only be half Jewish. Martha Kent would be a Protestant. Clark would celebrate both Christmas and Hanukkah, as well as any Kryptonian holidays when he was older. I don't think Superman has to be Jewish just because Joe and Jerry were, I just think it would be something cool to add to the mythos. I could certainly tell some good stories with it.

I certainly wouldn't make Superman completely Semetic. Rather, I'd portray him mostly the same. As I've said, I'm not religious at all. I just enjoy the idea of coming up with religions for characters. It's fun.

Quote
Here's a question: what religion would the Varasto island natives practice?

Ah, that's one thing I've put much thought into. I see them practicing a form of ancestor worship, but many of them would also practice the religions of the unified Kryptonians. I'd see there being a big contingent of Helio Raoists there. BTW, let me explain some of the different religions:

Agnosticism - Obviously the name would be different, but it's basically the same thing. Jor-El would fall into this category, as would most of the scientists on Krypton.

Atheism - Belief in no gods. Again, same as here.

Helio Raoism - Worship of their sun as a god, identified with Rao (also the name of their sun). This religion was mainly used between Classical Raoism and Neo-Raoism, though there are still followers today.

Neo-Raoism - Worship of Rao as the one and only god, the being that created Krypton, the sun Rao, and the universe. This was Krypton's biggest religion before Machina Raoism. Lara would belong to this religion.

Classical Raoism - Worship of Rao and an entire pantheon of gods. This religion has declined, but still has a fair share of followers.

Machina Raoism - Basically the same as human deism. Believers see Rao as creating the universe and making it similar to a machine that runs by itself. They believe Rao has no further involvement with the universe.

Ancestor Worship - Similar to our own ancient forms, but Kryptonians have a better way to store knowledge, so it's bigger there.

Progenism - The worship of the god-like beings Kryp and Tonn, who created everything on Krypton.

Technoism - These Kryptonians believe that science should dictate every action Kryptonians make.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: NotSuper on December 25, 2005, 12:18:39 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
That's how the character was in the myth. however for me what was more disturbing was not the decapitation, which you really didn't see, but the fact that it happen because Lara was going to kill her own son after she found out that he wasn't really from Krypton and of course Jor-El's reaction when he found out what happen to his wife. Again, they stay true to the Bryne versions.

I don't think the Byrne Kryptonians (at least Jor-El and Lara) would be evil. They were more like unemotional robots, except for Jor-El, who liked the old Krypton. Additionally, alien life couldn't survive on the planet because of the Eradicator. I know too much about the post-Crisis Krypton. :)

Still, the story is very good. Kudos to your friend.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Super Monkey on December 25, 2005, 12:48:39 PM
Agnosticism and Atheism are not religions ;)


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Great Rao on December 25, 2005, 10:28:06 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Agnosticism and Atheism are not religions ;)

There are some who would disagree with that.  I've known some pretty fanatical atheists in my time.

:s:


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Super Monkey on December 25, 2005, 10:41:35 PM
Quote from: "Great Rao"
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Agnosticism and Atheism are not religions ;)

There are some who would disagree with that.  I've known some pretty fanatical atheists in my time.

:s:


Same here, but those people are anti-religious rather than non-religious.  :wink:


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Psybertrack on December 26, 2005, 02:45:41 AM
Superman is partly about HOPE.  Its a religious and philosophical idea that things will get better, so don't give up trying to make them that way in the meantime. Don't quit.   I think you could be an agnostic or atheist and still believe in Hope, truth, justice, and some of the other virtues and ideas associated with Superman.
I know  some Agnostics and some Atheists. THe ones I know would be insulted to say they are the same things.  Though pegging down an universal definition for each seems to elude me when I try to interview agnostics and atheists.  "A" as a prefix means "not" and gnostic is from the greek word for "to know" or " To experientially know", not just intellectiually. At least in some older greek definitions. So an agnostic if he is what his name is , is a person who doesn't confess a certain organized denomination or religion, but who admits that he just doesn't know or know for sure yet, and may change. It's his philosophy which is mostly like a religion since its a belief system which influences different aspects of their life and choices. I am glad the USA is a place where one can freely choose to be an agnostic if he wants to. Its covered in the bill of rights.  Atheism is the philosophy of "a " , not, "theism" (theo) God, or god. They do not believe in God or gods but may believe in other things and thus have a philosophy too.   Sometimes this atheism is extended to say they do not believe in anything, (except for themselves and atheism).
Also covered by the bill of rights.   Still no matter what one believes, when you look at the infinite diversity in infinite combinations and amazing detail of specification and clarity in the natural world around us and in the universe, one has to ask the question: Is there an intelligence that is behind this marvelous nature? Do you see a Mind behind the Work?
Question: do you see  the touch of a Master Artist's hand in the masterpiece of the universe?  Some are unconvinced all their lives , yet others only see it when they study science and mathematics. Whether those who see a Creator or Creative force of some sort which orchestrated this universe are percieving the truth (and thus call out for help in prayer) or whether they are just imagining or self-deluding themselves is for each individual to decide.  Yet I would suggest that you not rush it. It's unlikely it all happened "accidentally" isn't it?  When I was 12 I thought my father I knew everything and he didn't know anything. Now that I am 45 I think he was one of the wisest men in the world and I am just begining to learn.  The Truth is out there. Seek .
Not everybody is the same.
Madelyne Murray Ohara who I think was an atheist had a son who is a born again Christian!


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: NotSuper on December 26, 2005, 09:45:00 AM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Agnosticism and Atheism are not religions ;)

I know, but it saved me time to just include them with the other religions. I'm actually an atheist myself.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Super Monkey on December 26, 2005, 10:06:57 AM
Quote
know, but it saved me time to just include them with the other religions. I'm actually an atheist myself.


At least we can all agree that The Great Rao is real. We have proof that Red Suns do exist :D

All hail the Red Giants!  :wink:


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: NotSuper on December 26, 2005, 11:00:01 AM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Quote
know, but it saved me time to just include them with the other religions. I'm actually an atheist myself.


At least we can all agree that The Great Rao is real. We have proof that Red Suns do exist :D

All hail the Red Giants!  :wink:

Heh. Don't forget the red dwarfs either! :)


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on December 27, 2005, 07:40:26 AM
Ouch. :)


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Gangbuster on December 27, 2005, 10:24:47 AM
I'm exactly like an atheist, except I believe in God and grace and stuff... :)

Nevertheless, I think that putting too much specific religion in Superman is a mistake, as he's a kind of character that everyone can be inspired by. This wouldn't be the case if he was running around trying to save everyone from the pit of Hell all the time (though it worked out alright in Miracle Monday) or if we had stories like "Superman's Jihad for President Kennedy."

On the other hand, one of the best stories I've read is the one from 1998, where Superman confronted the Holocaust and his Jewish origins directly. The idea of Superman being religious seems quite alright, but it shouldn't be a very specific or dogmatic religion.


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Super Monkey on December 27, 2005, 12:52:25 PM
Quote from: "NotSuper"


Heh. Don't forget the red dwarfs either! :)


I think they like to be called Red Little people


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: TELLE on December 27, 2005, 06:21:27 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Quote from: "NotSuper"


Heh. Don't forget the red dwarfs either! :)


I think they like to be called Red Little people


(http://i17.ebayimg.com/03/i/05/3a/16/ee_2.JPG)


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: Psybertrack on December 29, 2005, 03:15:31 AM
RED DWARF...
I know what a red dwarf is.
Sure, thats the Jupiter Mining Corporation Vessel that 3rd Technician Dave Lister works on  as he tools around the universe with Hologram Arnold Rimmer ; Cat, the hyper evolutionized descendant of Dave's pet earth cat; and Kryten the hilarious android. They manage to spoof a universe of fiction and fact along with Better Than Life video games, cosmic guitars, time travel and parallel dimensions. From King Arthur, to the Wild wild West to JFK conspiracy theories the episodes vary wildly.
Where else can you see Kennedy, Lincoln and Ghandi fight Hitler and other baddies? Only on the BBC tv series "Red Dwarf".  

By the way the butler in the Lara Croft Tomb raider movies is the same actor that plays Arnold Rimmer.

But not long ago , I heard they are making an American Motion picture of this (maybe they did and I missed it) Does anbody else know?


Title: Re: Al Franken
Post by: RedSunOfKrypton on December 31, 2005, 07:47:03 AM
Quote
But not long ago , I heard they are making an American Motion picture of this (maybe they did and I missed it) Does anbody else know?
It got scrapped after the terribly sucky pilot, which stinks because Hinton Battle was supposed to play Cat.