Superman Through the Ages! Forum

I don't know about you guys, but when it comes to Superman, these days I want to tap dance!

Anybody that says that Classic Superman is as dead as a doornail hasn't been paying attention to what's going on with the character in the past few years. Every single Superman work of significance has brought emphasis on his classic incarnation and elements over the 1986-2003 variation of Wolfman and Byrne.

More importantly, stellar talent, from Geoff Johns, Kurt Busiek, and yes, even Mark Waid and Grant Morrison (who at least understands who Superman IS) are being assigned to the character.

INFINITE CRISIS is restructuring the DC Universe to a configuration before it was rewritten by writer-artist singularities. INFINITE CRISIS is releasing Silver Age elements left and right to make even my cautiously optimistic statements about it now seem downright conservative. I mean, we've got Geoff Johns referencing, of all the things in the world, a lightning monster from an issue of TOMMY TOMORROW.

So, my question is this: at least as far as Superman is concerned, are we out of the Dark Ages?

BIRTHRIGHT is not perfect by any means, however, the Superman present is more inspired by Swan and Bates than by Byrne and Wolfman. The Krypton of BIRTHRIGHT was the gutsy science fiction world seen in pre-Crisis incarnations. Byrne went out of his way to paint Krypton as unsympathetic; Waid went out of his way to make it intriguing and its destruction a tragedy. Ditto for the character of Clark Kent; instead of being the handsome GQ model and football jock of the 1990s, he is once again the put upon, dismissable mildmannered figure of every single other incarnation except the post-Crisis variation. Luthor has his sense of humor, and his scientific know-how again - it's hard to imagine the 90s Luthor cracking a joke. He also has his Maggin-originated ability to create sympathy, he is once again one of the "sympathetic" villains like Namor and Magneto who is a foe by circumstance. Superman is superintelligent once again; he further has the "life sense" ability Maggin gave him in MIRACLE MONDAY.

Lois has black hair again. Yeah, it's a little thing, but it shows that Waid was writing in the spirit of Classic Superman.

Heck, they're even bringing back the original issue numbering.

And of course, we have Geoff Johns and his "Return to Krypton." The guy brought back the Fire Falls, the Gold Volcano, Mt. Mundru, Jor-El with a headband, antigravity belts...

And we have Mark Millar and his RED SON, which is Classic Superman while not in background, in terms of power level, purpose, and props: the bottled city, Lex as a genius scientist, Superman as super-intelligent, hypercompetent, and fearless, and so forth.

ALL-STAR SUPERMAN is clearly Classic Superman. Morrison has said as much, stating that he is Superman where the 1986 reboot did not take place, featuring Steve Lombardi, trippy concepts (the nitrogen-blooded zero-g giant was incredible), and "meek" Clark Kent. Most importantly: what is Superman's response when he discovers he is dying? Does he angst? Does he cry? No! He says (paraphrased), "there's always a way, Doctor, and I'll find it But if not, I'll take steps to make sure the earth is protected."

THAT'S the Superman we all know and love. My friends, Superman has returned!

Superman does reveal himself to Lois, true. But there's nothing specifically 1986-2003 about this. Superman's been revealing his identity to Lois since "K-Metal from Krypton." And this is the plot of approximately 4,000 Imaginary Stories.

Oh, and who are the next guys to take over Superman?

"Mr Silver Age" himself, Kurt Busiek. The guy that had Dr. Cyber be the principal villain in POWER COMPANY. The guy whose praise of Cary Bates's Superman is overflowing, who says he will bring back the Microwave Man at the earliest opportunity.

And Geoff Johns, too, is going to be writing Superman. The guy that returned Earth-2 Superman to relevancy, remember?

It would be enough if both these men were Silver Age junkies, like Mark Waid and Grant Morrison, who know who Superman is and how to have him behave. But even better, they're both also supertalented.

Byrne's "Superman" has joined the dustbin of failed variants that comics have forgotten, along with the female Dr. Mid-Nite, powerless Judo disco Wonder Woman, Connor Hawke, and Kyle Rayner, who is still around as an armistice concession to eighties-nineties fans - which I can live with as long as he's not THE Green Lantern. That parking space is reserved for another, better character.

I mean, what more do we all want?

The war's over, and old school fans like us have won. The urge to gloat is nearly insurmountable.

We won't have everything back the way it was in the Silver Age, which is just fine; the Super-UNIVAC, Jewel Kryptonite, and Supermobile were interesting but it doesn't make Superman SUPERMAN. But stories are being written with the same SPIRIT of that period, and with Busiek and Johns, with the TALENT of that period, too. There's no doubt in my mind that they're the Elliot S! Maggin and Cary Bates for a new generation.

Took a while, but it couldn't have happened sooner.

When Superman was made an unrecognizeable creative abortion by a talentless fraud who flushed all the oddity and imagination of five decades down the toilet, Alan Moore loudly and angrily proclaimed they had thrown the baby out with the bathwater and wrote the zany, acid inspired love letter to the Silver Age, SUPREME.

I highly doubt anyone will do the same for Byrne's "Superman" now that he's gone.

Alan Moore once said that no age lasts forever, not even a dark one. I hope to never mention that period again and get back to looking forward to Superman comics!

Ha! Good one Julian.   :D

With very few exceptions, Superman is uglier than ever and the DC brass is still clue-less, as are most of the fans (present company excluded).

Call me inattentive, I guess! :D

Too soon to tell one way or the other.  Once Infinite Crisis is over, there should be a better picture.

Although with Brad Meltzer on one of the Superman titles, I'm not holding out too much hope.  He like the wimp Superman over the iconic one.

Perhaps you didn't read that, TELLE.

We've got BUSIEK and GEOFF JOHNS getting on Superman.

Busiek...AND Geoff Johns!

One or the other would be cause for celebration. But BOTH?

Yeah, okay, we've got (ugh) Meltzer, but Superman was still great even when he had one book done by the Big Bad Wolf, because he still had Bates and Maggin.

There have been multiple versions of Superman in other comics - and nearly all of them are mostly Silver Age inspired.

And we've got INFINITE CRISIS.



True. However, the problem with the last Crisis was that it was put together by Marv Wolfman. This time, it's Geoff Johns, the man who brought back Hal Jordan, the guy that brought back Hawkman, the guy that got rid of that goofy leather jacket Dr. Fate and brought back the proper guy in the most logical way to bring back a character I've ever seen, and he and had a whole story arc of JSA around Rip Hunter: Time Master, who treated with dignity and respect - of all the characters that could have been a parody - the original Red Tornado.

This guy feels the same way we do. In IC, Batman vocalizes what we've been thinking: "Superman, you haven't inspired ANYBODY since your death."

Somehow, I don't think it's going to get any darker.  :D

was there ever an else worlds set in the middle ages with clarkie and/or brucie?

I made a thread similar to this one a while back. I believed then (and still believe) that Superman is out of the "Dark Ages." If you truly think things are bad now then you should go back and read some of the Superman stories from the nineties--it's not a pretty sight (with a few exceptions).

Right now, DC has some great writers that are working (or will be) on Superman. Most of these writers know who Superman is and don't want to make him dark or "edgy." I think the reason for some of the skepticism has to do with people believing that Superman can never crawl out of the Dark Ages (he will, don't doubt that). I consider myself to be a somewhat objective fan and I feel that DC is heading in the right direction.

Despite this, I don't believe we are at a new age yet. The period we're in right now seems like a "flux" (1948-1958) one. DC seems to be getting rid of the things that don't really work for the Superman character but still deciding on the ones to put back in.

In other words, we're witnessing the creation of a new age--we just don't know when it will be finally be completed. That's just my opinion, of course.

I was going to post pretty much the same thing, but I'll just be lazy and quote you instead :)

DITTO. Super-laziness is one of my amazing powers. :s:

I seem to remember one in which he was Sir Clark of Kent, but I'll be goshdurned if I can remember what happened in it. He probably went to Camelot or something ("Nay, on second thought, let us not go to Camelot: 'tis a silly place").

Well, to be fair, I haven't been reading IC and don't plan on it --unless I am super-bored (one of my powers) some year and am stuck somewhere where old issues or a tattered trade paperback collection are lying around.  I am thinking about picking up that JSA issue with George Perez out of nostalgia and might read Morrison's Superman when the first arc is collected.  The only new DC product I've paid for over the last  year: New Frontier, Seaguy, Mike Allred Solo and I think that's it.  I leaf through other things on the rack but most of it is ugly and features characters I don't recognize or who don't appeal to my super-refined sensibilities (another power).

Kurt Busiek is a good writer and worth buying when paired with a good artist.  I wouldn't know a Geoff Johns script if in bit me in my super-refined sensibilities.  It sounds like he is a fan of the "classic" versions of Dc superheroes and thinks that a "sensitive" treatment of Ma Hunkel is in order (a debatable prop to me).  Maybe I'll read one of those stories if I can find one with tolerable art.

Maybe my opinion doesn't count because I can't get worked up over innovations in these corporate properties as much as I used to.  There is a cold lead shell around my super-soft mushy center (another power).  I love the classic Superman, most of which was published before I was born, because of the high level of craft, editorial consistency, and childish charm I find in those old stories from a (now) vanished past.  A Superman retread, even one helmed by my favourite artists and writers, would still only be an anomaly, doomed to be watered down and ultimately corrupted by succeeding teams.  I learned this when Paul Smith left X-Men and John Byrne left Fantastic Four, breaking my teenage heart.  darn you serial comics!  I gave you the best years of my life!

 :cry:

I'm gonna have to echo Telle's sentiments on this one.

Ten years ago, I might have been excited to see a bit of Silver Age coolness creep back into the books, but by now I've been away from comics so long I don't think anything could bring me back.

For me, there's more wrong with the medium than the cynicism, cruelty and porn that pollute so many stories.  There's also the technical deficiencies: "art" by hacks who learned all they know from a "How to Draw Comics" book at Barnes and Noble.  Layouts featuring just two or three panels per page, or if you're lucky maybe six panels or two whole pages of panels that show the same moment in time from 20 different angles, advancing the story not one whit.  Plots that drag out for months or even years without coming to a satisfying conclusion.  "Dialog" that reads like the ramblings of a crack addict.  And lest we forget, an ever-shrinking page count with an ever-rising price tag.  

I miss more than Krypto and Beppo.  I miss plots that hold together and that I can follow, art that doesn't hurt my eyes, stories that are told -- in their entirety -- in a single issue, all in a package that's affordable.  Why should I spend 3 bucks for 20 pages of a story that doesn't even end when I can pay 15 bucks for 500 pages of classic comics in a "Showcase" edition?

I wish Kurt and Geoff all the luck in the world, and if what they do turns out good, I may buy it in trade form or at least check it out from my local library.  But modern comics just don't offer me a good return on my investment, and that's the bottom line.  I plan to build a library of Showcase volumes, and at one a month and 15 bucks a pop, that's my comic book budget right there.

As Telle says, good teams don't hang around indefinitely, and as Julian says (by way of Alan Moore), no age lasts forever.  Things are certainly looking up for Superman from a few years ago (when this site was the only bright spot for fans of the real deal), but the second DC perceives it can make more money with a return to Dark Age themes, it'll reverse course yet again.

I like the post-Crisis Superman, so I don't consider the last 20 years a "dark age".
For me, dark ages are the moments when stories are bad... So, For me the post-Crisis era is not a bad period... It's a long period featuring also bad moments (the mid '90s, the Seagle run...).

Nothing wrong with that. I've done it myself quite a few times.  :)

I have to say it's too soon to tell. Mark Waid and Grant Morrison are my favorite writers, they're like the spiritual heirs to Maggin. Busiek is excelent but is more of a marvel guy than a DC Silver Age guy. Loved Secret Identity, tought. Johns is OK, but I don't like the way Earth-2 Superman is treated in Infinite Crisis. I loved his Star and STIPES but he can be very dark and gore too.

Anyway, they're only in the books for a limited story arc, as I understand it, right? We don't know ho will be their replacements.

Jeph Loeb was the writer of Return to Krypton, not Johns.

And there was lot of inspiring Superman stories of Jurgens (Metriopolis Mailbag), Stern (Homeless for the Holidays) and kelly (What's so funny about Truth, Justice and the American Way?).

I think it's more of a transition age, or at leats a mixed bag. Some bright and inspiring, some dark and gloomy. To each his own.

Telle, you and I share some amazing powers - I also am super-bored.

And like Nightwing, Id rather spend my $ on Showcase editions.

Altho I did spring for some Plastic Man back issues and Super Boring (Wayne) art.

Lets see if A*S*S* keeps the ball going........
I wish Dawryn Cooke was doing Supes instead of the Spirit.

Whoops Super-ADD just kicked in...................whooooooooooooooosh!
AND AWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!

I think that no matter what happens, it will always be a mixed bag with a fair amount of crap in it...but maybe not enough to set it on fire and put it on someone's doorstep.

There are positive signs- a new movie, Smallville is good this year, JLU is one of the best shows on television. Krypto has a show, and there are several good comics on the market. "It's Superman" is a bestselling novel, and the Adventures of Superman is a bestselling TV Show. Bottom line...Superman is popular again, and there are avenues to express your capitalist pig support for him.

There are also negatives:

-Superboy is still untouchable. 40 years of Superboy stories have not seen reprint. Where's my DVD release? The Adventures of Who?

-Lex Luthor. A lot of people on these boards prefer Lex to be the imaginary sort of evil, not real evil (i.e. Lex stabbing women to death with a survival knife in the early 90s) While Lex has been portrayed as a scientist in some stories, he's transitioned to a corrupt political boss in others (President Lex, It's Superman!, current Smallville eps.) It's still unclear whose vision will win out. Besides, Kevin Spacey's portrayal of the character may take him in neither of these directions.

- If there were a small measure of justice in the world, (the real) Alan Moore would be Superman editor, and Elliot S! Maggin would be writing a comic based on the Krypto show. (Whether we would want to live in a completely just universe is a different philosophical matter, but I must stop myself!) I think the selection of comics will continue to be partly good, partly crap. Just buy the best ones...money talks. Well, sometimes.

I wish he was doing the now-on-hold creator-owned "dream project" that he mentioned in a few interviews instead of gnawing on a few of Wil Eisner's old bones.  He certainly has the career momentum to break free of the comic book plantation system.

(PS: I loved Alan Moore and Daniel Torres' Spirit pastiche!)

This is precisely the very thing that makes me think that we're coming out of the dark times.

If you think about it, this was always true, wasn't it? There were always lousy writers. Marv Wolfman did his best work to titles other than Superman. But nonetheless, his stories were interesting because he was made to write stories about SUPERMAN, and made them Superman stories, having the main character continue to behave as he was characterized as behaving.

Is the reason we're all so jazzed about A-S-S is because it features a return of a confident, fearless characterization to Superman....or because it actually is fantastic? Morrison is at best, an alright writer. But the reason A-S-S feels much more magnificent because it is Superman just written correctly.

It's not just all about talent. Talent can come and go, but was is important is, with INFINITE CRISIS, and with BIRTHRIGHT, a straightforward, correct vision of the character and his world has been created that future writers have to abide by. A vision created by people that understand who the character is. It isn't so much that Busiek and Geoff Johns are coming to write Superman; it's that they're setting the ground floor on how the character is to be written for the next 10 years.



It's unfortunate that this sort of success is seldom mirrored in the comics. When the X-MEN movie was released, the Marvel offices put Chuck Austen, that boil on the behind of the industry, on an X-Book.




While I love Gardner Fox and John Broome and their talents are a credit to everyone involved, DC only REALLY started getting absolutely terrific when the Marvel people started coming over. When Steve Englehart did BATMAN and JUSTICE LEAGUE, Steve Gerber did possibly one of the greatest comics of the 1970s with his METAL MEN run, Roy Thomas started doing ALL-STAR SQUADRON and really, everything else at one time or another. Gerry Conway was alright, however,  his JLA had more high points than low ones.

I admit to some slight bias as I am primarily a fan of Marvel Comics (with the exception of Superman, of course) but the perspective that these writers brought when they came to DC: taking the characters seriously and with reverence, giving them witty, streetwise dialogue, bestowing their personalities with idiosyncrasies and humor, and tying their history together and created connections based on previous stories...it was magnificent to watch.



You've got a point there. SHOWCASE and ARCHIVE Editions are pretty awesome, aren't they?

Personally, I don't think Superman, or all of DC, is anywhere near out of the Dark Ages.  Let's see..

-Batman is now a metahuman-fearing paranoid who ended up being the one to unwittingly create Brother I, and thus is responsible for the OMACs.

-Wonder Woman cold-bloodedly murdered Max Lord (who was inexplicably Evil).  This has caused an understandable Rift between her, Batman and Superman.

-The Justice League has apparantly been a bunch of mind-wiping, brain-washing goits since the Silver Age.

-Dr Light is, and apparantly always was, prior to his mindwipe, a disgusting rapist.

-The Giffen-era JLA is dropping like flies.

-Hal Jordan's return and exoneration from his actions as Parallax are strongly criticized on some forums; "The Yellow Fear Monster" has been called one of the worst retcons in ages.

-And now, in Infinite Crisis, apparantly the villains are Earth-2 Golden Age Superman, Alex Luthor and Superboy-Prime.

...And that's not counting all the deaths, betrayals and other forms of grittiness that have been shown in all of the books as of late, including having Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew come back in a mock storyline which very much parodies the dark tone comics have taken as of late.

Superman's not out of the Dark Ages by a long shot.

...Oh, and personally, Kyle Rayner's my favorite Green Lantern.  Say what you will about the man, but in my eyes, he's earned the right to wear the Ring, and nobody can take that way from him.

This is the part that hurts the most. :cry:

Until everyone stops buying it, they won't stop making it (and I have a hunch it will be hard to stop even then).  And this is the most talked about series of the year, with the sales to back it up.  It even caused a some categorical changes here, on the forums dedicated to the quality comics of yesteryear (and I ain't talking about Phantom Lady).

I believe the Crisis forum are only Temporary.

Thank Rao for small mercies! :D

I shouldn't complain --I love all the pre-Crisis Crisis stories (even the weird ones) and I may even get nostalgic for COIE one day.  And I'm sure I'll pick up that Morrison book when collected.

I think we'll know the answer to the question for sure one year after Infinite Crisis is over. It might be a good idea to revisit this thread then and see if things are truly better.

As I've said before, I'm very optimistic about the future. While Superman won't be reverted to one of his past eras (nor do I think he should--we need a new age), he will crawl out of the Iron Age.

But what exactly is the Iron Age? I don't think strong violence or sexual content is what the Iron Age is about. On the contrary, you can still have good stories using both of those elements. To me, the Iron Age is a mindset. One of the main themes of the age seems to be that "heroes" can't change the world, and are, indeed, powerless against the forces of evil. It's like one big Greek tragedy (only not written as well). Granted, I don't see the Iron Age as some kind of uncreative Hell, I just see it as the lesser of ALL the previous ages. The good stories just weren't very common.

My prediction: We'll still have the violence and strong sexual content (which I have no problem with) but we'll also have heroes acting like heroes. The heroes will also actually be able to affect the world in positive ways. Long-time characters will be treated with dignity and respect, and if they do die they'll die as heroes. I see optimism and cynicism being in conflict in the DCU, but ultimately I see optimism winning out.

That's just a prediction, though.

Waaaay to early to call. If anything DC has actuallybeen more annoying because they'll make fun of the whole Iron/Dark Age approach yet it's really hard to laugh at the joke when the joke is being put out by the purveyor of the exact crap being made fun of. It's like if you know this is stupid then STOP DOING IT!

I'd almost have more respect for DC if they just came out and said "Ok, screw all you, we like grim n' gritty and we're gonna keep raping and killing and tearing down the image of the hero for years to come." This constant back and forth is just kinda cowardly. How can you talk about wanting to fix Batman from being a jerk and still publish an insult like All Star B&R?

As I've said before, I really hope I'm wrong and that maybe this whole thing wil turn out with their being a return of fun, a return of heroes, and a return to DC superhero comicbooks that you could share with people of various ages. Yes, even kids.

But still seems to me that Earth 2 Superman is being used as some sort of effigy meant to represent folks who want to move away from grimschlock and as such will end up as a dupe, a fool, or worse a villan and that the whole thing is just one huge giant justification to keep cranking out the darkness.

I'm really normally very pessimistic about modern comics but I just picked up Adventures of Superman 648 and Greg Rucka .  GREG RUCKA!!!!, wrote a decent even good Superman story. If this has happened ANYTHING  is possible!!! In fack all the Superman titles were showing hope and renewal. I'll just go cross my fingers and pray now.