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Title: Wolfman Howls Post by: TELLE on January 17, 2006, 10:06:54 PM I normally could care less about the goings on at DC but when I saw this article at Publisher's Weekly today I thought people here might be interested, especially as how it touches on several topics that have been discussed here recently (Atlantis was even discussed in Supermanica):
Wolfman Returns for Another Crisis http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6299714.html Quote PWCW: You've spoken about how company-wide continuity can often restrict creativity. How do find working with continuity in writing for DC Comics now? MW: I haven't had to worry about that, fortunately. My Infinite Crisis story is built off my original. That allowed me to be somewhat insular. As far as intra-company continuity goes, my view has always been that the best writers at a company are held hostage by the worst. Poor ideas become part of the whole, which hurts everyone. But readers seem to enjoy the overall company concept. I always thought characters could meet but that each title should be independent from the others. So if there was, for example, an Atlantis in Superman and an Atlantis in Aquaman, they didn't need to be the same Atlantis. That way writers could let their imaginations go for the most incredible concepts without worrying what was done in a 1959 issue of Action Comics or even in last month's Batman. Part of my Crisis was to get rid of all those continuity elements and start all over again. The problem comes as readers get older and they want to have some sort of link between the titles; they ask how could the JLA characters get together while there are different Atlantises. I believe very strongly in continuity within a title-so everything within, say, The New Titans, was consistent. But I didn't feel it needed to be consistent with what was happening in Green Lantern. Still, that's not what most readers like, so I've never written books with that attitude. But if I had my druthers.... Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: JulianPerez on January 19, 2006, 07:07:26 PM Quote from: "The Big Bad Wolf" PWCW: You've spoken about how company-wide continuity can often restrict creativity. How do find working with continuity in writing for DC Comics now? MW: I haven't had to worry about that, fortunately. My Infinite Crisis story is built off my original. That allowed me to be somewhat insular. As far as intra-company continuity goes, my view has always been that the best writers at a company are held hostage by the worst. Poor ideas become part of the whole, which hurts everyone. But readers seem to enjoy the overall company concept. I always thought characters could meet but that each title should be independent from the others. So if there was, for example, an Atlantis in Superman and an Atlantis in Aquaman, they didn't need to be the same Atlantis. That way writers could let their imaginations go for the most incredible concepts without worrying what was done in a 1959 issue of Action Comics or even in last month's Batman. Part of my Crisis was to get rid of all those continuity elements and start all over again. The problem comes as readers get older and they want to have some sort of link between the titles; they ask how could the JLA characters get together while there are different Atlantises. I believe very strongly in continuity within a title-so everything within, say, The New Titans, was consistent. But I didn't feel it needed to be consistent with what was happening in Green Lantern. Still, that's not what most readers like, so I've never written books with that attitude. But if I had my druthers.... Wow, so if Marv Wolfman had the leeway to do whatever he likes, he would unprofessionally ignore a world's verisimilitude and what is being done elsewhere in favor of pushing his own egotistical interpretation of concepts and characters? Big surprise there. Marv, your career is pretty much over, so hush up and let the real writers like Geoff Johns do their job, huh? What bothers me is that, dozens of Morrison fanboys right now are reading this sort of comment, pumping their fist, and saying "YOU GO, WOLFMAN!" as they loudly shout over the Radiohead CD playing in the background. Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: Super Monkey on January 19, 2006, 07:44:05 PM I don't like Wolfman at all, but I'll take Grant Morrison's All-Star Superman over the sloppy IC everytime.
Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: JulianPerez on January 19, 2006, 08:10:45 PM Quote from: "Super Monkey" I don't like Wolfman at all, but I'll take Grant Morrison's All-Star Superman over the sloppy IC everytime. Not to sound rude, SuperMonkey, but have you read it yet? You mentioned on another occasion you don't set foot in comics stores and only buy things on TPB. I was nervous about everything I heard about IC, until I actually read it, and then I realized that my fears were unwarranted because Geoff Johns is a guy that is genuinely in love with Silver Age minutiae; he pulled Mr. Atom out of mothballs, he brought Earth-2 Superman into relevancy, restored Power Girl to her original origin, and recently, he... S P O I L E R S ...brought back Barry Allen, killed before his time. Good work has been done with Wally since then, but there's no reason that we can't have both, right? END SPOILERS INFINITE CRISIS is a joy to read; one big fanboy joygasm. There's nothing more exciting than a miniseries where one wonders what's going to happen next. If this is the guy that's going to define the next decade of DC COMICS, it couldn't be in better hands. ...Plus, the four minis that led up to it were fantastic. Cat-Man is SO cool! And any miniseries like RANN/THANAGAR WAR has Darkfire as Empress of the Citadel, Captain Comet as the hero, a Coluan flying saucer attacked by a shapechanging "living" starship, the evil Hawkgod from the JSA series, Green Lanterns...wow! Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: Super Monkey on January 19, 2006, 08:24:43 PM If he is such a big sliver age fan as you say, then why did he not know that the Earth-2 Superman never had that big key/fortress? That he worked for the Daily Star NOT the daily planet? Why would he make Superboy-prime into a murder of all people? Why is Alex is villian now when he was always a hero like his dad? Why didn't he know that the Anti-Monitor never had a body?
These mistakes and plot holes make it seem to me like he doesn't know much about these characters at all. I know that the series is not over yet, but it's going to take some serious backflips to explain away those things. Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: Gangbuster on January 19, 2006, 08:53:13 PM When Power Girl saw a fortress with a key, I'm pretty sure she was seeing Earth-1. She would have had prior knowledge, and visits, to Earth-1, correct?
Furthermore, Superboy-Prime is not a pre-Crisis character. He, like many of the Earths, was created explicitly for Crisis on Infinite Earths. I am interested, however, in who gets creator credits for him. Would it be Maggin and Swan, who wrote that Crisis crossover, or Wolfman? I don't have any real confidence in the Crisis series itself. With the exception of some heartwarming nostalgic things, it seems to be the same fast-paced bloodbath that the first Crisis was. I have more confidence in how the aftermath is going to turn out, and not the series itself. Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: JulianPerez on January 19, 2006, 10:33:39 PM Quote from: "Gangbuster Thorul" I don't have any real confidence in the Crisis series itself. With the exception of some heartwarming nostalgic things, it seems to be the same fast-paced bloodbath that the first Crisis was. I have more confidence in how the aftermath is going to turn out, and not the series itself. To be fair: Geoff Johns made me LIKE all the characters he decided to kill off before he did it. I thought Blue Beetle was a wank until, come IC, he was written by Johns and made a truly likeable sort. He's almost - ALMOST done the impossible and make Kyle Rayner likeable in his GL series. I don't disagree with any of the deaths that were shown. The Freedom Fighters were never made interesting, and let me be the first to say it: SOMEBODY had to clear off the Keith Giffen era League, a nauseating period where characters behaved out of character to get cheap laughs. To quote Sean Penn: "I don't see why others say I have no sense of humor when I don't laugh at things that aren't funny." Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: nightwing on January 20, 2006, 09:01:00 AM Julian, you had me up until you quoted Sean Penn. Not exactly a mensa cadidate, that one.
And I thought Beetle bought the farm before Infinite Crisis even started? Anyway, I'm no fan of Giffen-era JLA either, but I did kind of like the Freedom Fighters, if admittedly for no defensible reason. It just seems to me like killing off characters -- only to bring back new ones with the same name who are just as dull if not worse -- is about the most overused cheap stunt in modern comics, and how it could still provide any impact at all is beyond me. I look forward to reading IC when it's collected into a TPB and added to my local library's collection. Let's say Spring of 2007. Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: JulianPerez on January 20, 2006, 03:08:53 PM Quote from: "nightwing" Julian, you had me up until you quoted Sean Penn. Not exactly a mensa cadidate, that one. The funny thing about a quote like that is, you see it and your response is, "gee, lighten up, buddy." But then you start to find ways to apply it, like now. Quote from: "nightwing" And I thought Beetle bought the farm before Infinite Crisis even started? Yes, in a preview that was written by Johns. Quote from: "nightwing" Anyway, I'm no fan of Giffen-era JLA either, but I did kind of like the Freedom Fighters, if admittedly for no defensible reason. I suppose I agree with you somewhat. It is...unnerving...to hear about characters dying because what that means is, if they can kill characters you don't like, sooner or later they're going to get to somebody you DO. Mr. Atom, for instance, a great Marvel Family villain. Though, he IS a robot; the door is open for any writer to just bring him back by having someone rebuild him for something. I was horrified by the death of the Freedom Fighters at first. But the more I think about it, the better a choice it was. For one thing, unfortunately, no great writer saw their potential and did a really fantastic Freedom Fighters series. They were just sort of...THERE, the superhero equivalent of the guy that shows up at a party, never talks to anybody, and just sits in a corner. And perhaps this fits in with a greater plan for the DC-Multiverse that is being restored; note, for instance, that Earth-2 was recently restored, and the Freedom Fighters were all from Earth-X. Quote from: "nightwing" It just seems to me like killing off characters -- only to bring back new ones with the same name who are just as dull if not worse -- is about the most overused cheap stunt in modern comics, and how it could still provide any impact at all is beyond me. There's always going to be a Flash, because you can't keep a good thing like that down. Somehow though, I suspect we're not going to see another Human Bomb. Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: nightwing on January 20, 2006, 03:51:59 PM Quote Yes, in a preview that was written by Johns. Okay, didn't know he wrote it. But your quote was, "then came IC," and in fact that title begins after Ted's death. Speaking of which, if Geoff wrote the scene where Ted's head gets ventilated, I'm inching even further away from the pro-Johns camp. Quote I suppose I agree with you somewhat. It is...unnerving...to hear about characters dying because what that means is, if they can kill characters you don't like, sooner or later they're going to get to somebody you DO. No, that's not it, actually. Frankly, death means absolutely squat in comics. If they want a character back from the dead, they'll bring him back from the dead, no matter how many pieces we saw him torn into. So the minute a publisher says, "we're killing a prominent character!" my immediate response is, "So what?" It's like soap operas where they expect me to get upset that the girl is marrying the wrong guy. I'm supposed to sit there and say, "No, don't ruin your life by marrying that cad!" but instead I'm thinking, "Knock yourself out, no marriage on this show lasts longer than 6 months, anyway." No, what bothers me is that killing characters is such a cheap thrill, or rather was a cheap thrill the first thousand times it was done. Now it's not even interesting. It's the first resort of an unimaginative mind. Sure, nobody ever did anything interesting with the Freedom Fighters, but who's to say nobody ever could? Marvelman was a dumb rip-off of another character until Alan Moore got hold of him. Animal Man was a total loss until his series in the 90s. The X-Men were one of Stan's few failures until Wein and Cockrum retooled them in the 70s. To me it's a total cop-out to kill a character because he "never worked anyway" when history shows a talented writer can make anything work. Which is not to defend or eulogize any of the victims of Superboy's bloodbath...I don't recognize a single one of them and I'll never miss them. They're just ciphers...people in costumes with one purpose in life and that is to be cannon fodder. If Johns didn't murder them for a cheap thrill, some other hack would have soon enough. But let's not kid ourselves; ripping people to pieces is something that happens in comic books (not horror movies, mind you...not military fiction...a comic book) for one reason and one reason only, and that is to appeal to the lowest common denominator, the bloodthirsty fanboys. I'm not one of them. Quote I was horrified by the death of the Freedom Fighters at first. But the more I think about it, the better a choice it was. For one thing, unfortunately, no great writer saw their potential and did a really fantastic Freedom Fighters series. They were just sort of...THERE, the superhero equivalent of the guy that shows up at a party, never talks to anybody, and just sits in a corner. And perhaps this fits in with a greater plan for the DC-Multiverse that is being restored; note, for instance, that Earth-2 was recently restored, and the Freedom Fighters were all from Earth-X. Again, the fact that they'd never been done well yet doesn't mean they couldn't have been. Now there's no chance for that. And let's be honest here; what we have seen is not the end of the Freedom Fighters as a concept. What we have seen is the door opening for the next generation of also-rans: a new Phantom Lady, a new Ray (this one was already the second), a new Black Condor (also up to Mark II and counting) and so on. Only this time they'll be Puerto Rican or women or both, and their book will be canceled in less than a year. And not to nit-pick, but the Freedom Fighters were actually from Earth-2. They travelled to Earth-X in order to fight Nazis, as Earth-X was a world with no resident superheroes. Reading a caption on that scanned page of IC 4 at Dial B for Blog, I think this is a detail that escaped Johns as well. Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: Gangbuster on January 20, 2006, 04:25:16 PM The issue of character death has come up again...and I have to say I don't like character deaths. Wolfman is responsible for lots of them, and now Johns...but I still hate character deaths. Scratch that....I hate character death aftermaths.
Consider the story of Blue Beetle's death. It was well-written, tragic, and heroic. At the end of the story, you were really sorry that Blue Beetle was dead. But have you seen what the new Blue Beetle is going to look like. Seems like a laughable replay of the 90s to me. I'm no great fan of the late-80s Justice League...but someone loves them. I think it's a mistake to kill them off like this. I think it's a mistake to kill off all the Freedom Fighters in one issue (especially if Uncle Sam is dead...that's just wrong.) I think it's a mistake to kill off half of the Titans in one issue, and I think it's a mistake to impale a woman on a stick. We've had four issues of Crisis so far. Two of them seemed to have been written by a man like Jeph Loeb, someone with respect for the characters.. However, two of them seemed to have been written by Quentin Tarantino...so I'm witholding judgment on Johns for now. Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: Super Monkey on January 20, 2006, 04:43:22 PM Quote from: "Gangbuster Thorul" two of them seemed to have been written by Quentin Tarantino...so I'm witholding judgment on Johns for now. At least Quentin Tarantino likes Superman enough to include that classic speech in Kill Bill 2 (he didn't write it but to even know where to get it from shows what a true blue fanboy he is) Johns didn't seem to be able to figure that out yet. Quentin Tarantino is all about staying true to the genres of his films, if he ever did a Super hero movie, I bet it would look like a Sliver Age comic book brought to life. Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on January 20, 2006, 06:20:17 PM Knowing Quentin it would be Luke Cage, old skool style.
Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: JulianPerez on January 20, 2006, 06:34:06 PM Quote from: "Klar Ken T5477" Knowing Quentin it would be Luke Cage, old skool style. That may be the coolest thing I've ever heard. Of course, it would have tons of pop culture references to Looking Glass and collars that you can hang glide off of. Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: TELLE on January 20, 2006, 07:10:54 PM Quote from: "Gangbuster Thorul" The issue of character death has come up again...and I have to say I don't like character deaths. Wolfman is responsible for lots of them Several trillion, no? Or is it an "infinite" number? The most (and best) character development in the Freedom Fighters took place in one panel, when Doll Man confessed his love for Phantom Lady moments before Mxy and Batmite destroyed their universe in World's Funnest. Best multi-universe cross-over and destruction ever! The best drawn, as well. I enjoyed large parts of Kill Bill but that Superman thing was leaden. Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: Permanus on January 21, 2006, 04:25:09 AM Quote from: "JulianPerez" Quote from: "Klar Ken T5477" Knowing Quentin it would be Luke Cage, old skool style. That may be the coolest thing I've ever heard. I second that. Wow! What a concept! I've heard that someone-I-never-heard-of is making a Luke Cage movie (actually, I don't think they've even started shooting so it'll probably all fall through), but they're going wit' da hip-hop gangsta angle rather than Shaft. Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: DoctorZero on January 21, 2006, 09:05:48 AM Agreed, Freedom Fighters did come from Earth 2, as established by Roy Thomas in All Star Squadron. This plan to have them migrate to Earth X was speeded up, wasn't it, to coincide with the end of Earth 2 during the first Crisis.
I think it's all moot, in that Barry's not back, we just know he didn't die. Yes, he could be brought back but I don't think DC's doing this. Looks like the rumor of Bart becoming the Flash is correct. Also, since I don't believe for a second that Earth 2 is staying around, then the reason for killing the Freedom Fighters isn't valid anyway. I suspect that the Freedom Fighters were killed for the same reason why the minor, unused Titans were killed. DC wanted to convince people that something is actually happening and what better way than to kill off characters that they weren't using anyway? I do think that the Freedom Fighters had more potential than the slaughtered Titans, however. But DC has always had a tendency to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: dto on January 21, 2006, 12:45:01 PM Quote from: "TELLE" The most (and best) character development in the Freedom Fighters took place in one panel, when Doll Man confessed his love for Phantom Lady moments before Mxy and Batmite destroyed their universe in World's Funnest. Best multi-universe cross-over and destruction ever! The best drawn, as well. You mean this? :wink: http://www.randominformation.com/crack/24.jpg Now if only Mxy and Bat-Mite can fix the "Infinite Crisis" mess as easily as they restored the Multiverse in "World's Funniest"... :( Wait, didn't Mxy just DIE in an IC tie-in story? :shock: Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: TELLE on January 22, 2006, 06:10:38 AM Quote from: "dto" You mean this? :wink: http://www.randominformation.com/crack/24.jpg That's the one! Quote Wait, didn't Mxy just DIE in an IC tie-in story? :shock: Impossible! Our glorious leader? Dead? Title: Re: Wolfman Howls Post by: dto on January 22, 2006, 12:22:27 PM Apparently Mr. Mxyzptlk dies (at the very least he's been GRAVELY injured)in Adventures of Superman #646, November 2005. :cry:
Reviews: http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/2006-post-crisis-reviews/c-review-2006.php?topic=aos646 http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/reviews/113390511414417.htm http://comics.ign.com/articles/673/673240p1.html http://www.buzzscope.com/reviews.php?id=5267 |