Superman Through the Ages! Forum

[warning: contains opinions that may not be your own]

Background:

I'm 23 years old, with a Superman hobby. I enjoy reading Silver Age reprints, and I've recently subscribed to All-Star Superman. I have a room full of Superman novels, posters, and figures. I've enjoyed the Adventures of Superman and the Animated Series, collected on DVD. Every week I gather around with old friends and watch Smallville, (but never Lois and Clark) and in my leftover spare time I've worked on Supermanica. Up until now, I've really enjoyed Superman Through the Ages, and support the site when I can.

Nietzche, who accidentally created "Superman" thanks to some bad English translators, once said "Battle not with monsters, lest you should become a monster."  There is a monster growing on this site, a sort of "Super-Fundamentalism," which has the potential to drive younger Superman fans away.  Here's what I mean:

When John Byrne took over the Superman titles, I was four years old. I had no knowledge of this, continued to watch Superfriends, then Superboy, and later read Superboy comics. (My first comic was Superboy #2, based on the TV show.) My perception of Superman really wasn't changed very much between age four and age five. On the other hand, there are people on the forum who were already adults at that time, who felt that DC had robbed them of their childhoods.

I agree with those who think that the Man of Steel miniseries was not true to Superman, (now that I've read it in my adult life) and that the restrictions placed on Superman at that time were too rigid and stifled creativity. I think that Last Son of Krypton was an infinitely better Superman origin than that series will ever be.  But then I have to deal with the "SuperFundamentalism"....some Superman fans on this forum are every bit as rigid as the DC editorial staff of 1985.  As far as they're concerned, the last Superman story was in 1986, and they'll never try anything new. If that's your prerogative, so be it. But PLEASE stop ruining the fun for everyone else!

I respect Superman's history...a lot. However, I want to be able to talk about an episode of the Animated Series (that happened AFTER 1986) without shame.  If I mention the new issue of All-Star Superman, I don't want to be greeted with "Humbug! New comics suck!" when you haven't actually read a new comic since I've been born. If I spot the Indian Caves from "I Can't Go Home Again" in Smallville, I'd like to be able to point it out without the philosophy of Smallville's evilness being spouted in my face. And though I don't like all of it, I've been reading Infinite Crisis! Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

It is both honorable and necessary to respect Superman's history. It is important that Superman maintains the moral sense that makes him Superman. But it is also important to realize that some aspects of Superman's history, and some of his important moral decisions, are being made now.
Superfundamentalism, Super-censorship, and Super-whining about new things have got to go.  Many of the people who are still angry at the DC of the late 80s have become the DC of the late 80s. Stop it.

I'm trying to sort out the points you are making...one may be the elimination of "Smallville" conversation...the other would be having a dim view of modern comics and expressing it, sometimes without having read the comic but commenting on another's summary of what's in the comic...I don't think the second issue is any more than strong preferences by members of the site...

But maybe I'm missing something...

Both I and the Great Rao and nearly everyone on this site are big fans of All-Star Superman, and have said so countless times, it even has it's own board, so are you sure you got the right website?  :?

A valid point.

There are a few characters that some of us here enjoy that are part of the post-Crisis Superman family

Top of the list is
John Henry Irons aka Steel

I have not seen in disparging comments about the character Steel(well, maybe the movie version of him)

Another character is Linda Danvers Supergirl(PAD"S Supergirl,  Angelgirl, etc.)

I'm not really a Superman fan.  I've always perferred reading about the 2nd tier characters.  I perfered Supergirl over Superman.  Why?  2nd tiers have growth and change compared to the static icons.  the Supergirl fans, such as myself are still hurting over THE LIE

The only complaint I've ever head or seen about Superman the Animated Series is that DC refused to give it as much attention as The Batman Animated Series.

In Justice League, Superman was suffering from the Worf effect.

As to John Byrne, the more I've read about his retconning and wall-building, the more I dislike his writing.  The Metal Men are not plastic.
His comment about Jessica Alba was out of line and the way he took a pot shot at Christopher Reeve right after he died was disgusting.  

As to the modern day comics, I was really hoping they would write the wedding of Guy Gardner and Tora

and another thing...



What shame? That has it's own board as well! Yet again, most people here are FANS of it, where are you getting this from?



Yeah, I better stop promoting the upcoming Post IC Superman run then like a madman then,... :roll:

http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2194
http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2227
http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2295

I don't know where you are getting this from, so you better stop  generalizing and start naming names.

I didn't like the Bronze Age and I write about it sometimes...

People just ignore me... :lol:

I do not recall stating anywhere that the official position of Superman Through the Ages was anti- A.S.S, or that forums for subjects that I'm interested in, like All-Star Superman, did not exist. If I accidentally implied that, I'm sorry. My point is that there are millions of Superman fans who don't read the comics, who have no idea who John Byrne is. There is bitterness and negativity toward new things among a few in the forum, which has the potential to drive away new people.

I am trying to think here, OK so there is that one guy who hates everything, and only post here to complain about things that may or may not have actually happen on some other boards. Then there is MatterEaterLad, who thinks that the 1970's were too modern for his taste, but he is a lovable old chap and besides most people just skip over his posts anyway. He is still refers to movies "moving pictures" and "talkies" for pete's sake and thinks that Kirk Alyn was the only true Superman actor in his eyes, so cut him some slack.  :P

LOL! See? :D

"Stupid Monkey!" This series of thread are supposed to be overgeneralized, highly opinionated rants, and are designated as such! And then you had to go and take it all seriously..... :D

Well, if it's data that you want, try this on for size...

A forum search for the word "hate" returns nearly 180 results. Sourpusses on this forum hate nearly everything! Examples include:

"hell, I hate living in Italy."
-falck44, hater of Italy.

"I spend money on comics I hate! I will never forgive Ultimate Avengers for their stupid Bush-era francophobia, but for some reason I still pick it up."
- Permanus, hater of comics that he buys anyway.

"I hate to criticize such an obviously worthwhile project that all involved seem (deservedly) passionate about, but the newly-drawn, color-ized version of that panel eliminates all of the charm and storytelling power of the original."
- TELLE, hater of K-Metal.

"I hate the "Lex Luthor, businessman..."
-Permanus, hater of fine coats and ties.

"Boy, do I hate decompressed storytelling."
- Super Monkey, hater of Superman: Birthright.

"Oh how I hate truth, justice, and the American way. Viva la communista!"
                     - Great Rao, hater of America.*

"Rao said what? I ought to punch him in the nose..."
                    - Kurt Busiek*

So, as you can see from this example, Superman Through the Ages users hate a great number of positive, uplifting things. And that's not all...Superman Through the Ages users hate FREEDOM! (I will present evidence for this outrageous claim later...)



*denotes posts that were completely made up

I agree with the above post you typed, Gangbuster Thorul.

I for one, do my best to be upbeat, because I do genuinely love the character of Superman, his history, and his worldview. I am quite optimistic about his future, and given the caliber of his writing team (Johns and Busiek) I believe that he is in very good hands. Heck, while I'm not the biggest Morrison and Waid fan in the universe, they "get" Superman and write him well. I simply do not understand the "Superman is mired in the Dark Ages" negativity, from people that aren't actually reading his comics.

The reason I enjoy Superman depicted as moral and forthright is because that is who Superman IS, that is his defining traits as a character. Just as Daffy Duck's defining traits are his vanity and speech impediment. A Daffy who is selfless and considerate and has perfect diction isn't really Daffy.

HOWEVER - just because Superman is this variety of hero does not mean that other characters suffer because they are not exactly like Superman.

Just because Wally West was rebuilt by Waid in the image of Silver Age Superman does not make this a "good idea."

Just because Tarantino's characters are generally pimps, stoned gun-molls and psycho brides does not mean that his movies are devoid of entertainment value.

The most eggregious case of Super-Fundamentalism is found in a recent post by Great Rao which features a quote on the recent Sci-Fi Channel BATTLESTAR: GALACTICA series, condemning it because it was "morally bankrupt" and showcased violence. Nevermind the dramatic power of the series, brilliant writing by Moore and others, and desire to introduce complexity to the story with sympathetic villains.

Many cannot read S.M. Sterling's historical novels, because often his gleefully cruel, warlike, and evil bad guys occasionally triumph over the heroic and positively portrayed characters.

Yet this is not a reflection on the work itself.

The function of entertainment is not to provide moral instruction - this is the responsibility of parents and educators. What must be asked - with BSG and with S.M. Sterling and with Tarantino is, "does the story succeed under the rules it itself creates?"

Oh lordy, I got quoted twice! Now everyone is going to think I'm bitter, twisted and full of hate. Oh well, it was only a matter of time before I got unmasked.

I see the point you're making, though; one shouldn't be too fundamentalistic. I'm not a big continuity freak, for instance -- in fact, I think it often makes for bad comics because it ties a character down to too much history (hence the need for DC to do these "crises" every once in a while).

Even though I wasn't quoted above (why won't anybody ever quote me?  :cry: ) I can't help thinking some of this is directed at myself, resident Crusty Curmudgeon of STTA since...well, since before there was a forum (I started my crankery back on the KAL-L mailing list!).

If so, tough!  I reserve the right to hate everything, and by the way stay off my lawn and turn down that music.

But I think a little perspective is necessary here.  This site was started as an antidote to the 90s-era Superman and DC's edict that nothing before 1986 mattered.  Rao made no secret that this site was for Pre-Crisis Superman lovers, and went out of his way to avoid acknowledging the character then in print.

Since then, a lot of positive things have happened at DC and Rao has been great about devoting attention and support to all of them.  There may be some cranky forum fussbudgets who are never happy about anything, but I think what we've seen at STTA as an institution is the reverse of what you describe.  Rather than a gradual descent into grumpiness and closed-mindedness, we have in fact seen a gradual thawing towards today's DC and a celebration of positive developments in Superman's world.  Eight years ago this site treated Superman as a figure of nostalgia...today there are boards devoted to the latest titles.

And we mustn't forget the reverse; a lot of the great things that have happened to Superman never would have, in my opinion, without this site, which gave longtime fans a voice that DC has heard.

I agree.  But there is a difference between this being a pre-Crisis site devoted to the "real" Superman, and the attitude that is sometimes taken toward people who wish to discuss new things. I've been guilty of Superfundamentalism myself...someone brought up Lois and Clark airing on the Disney channel the other day, and he was worried about it.  Instead of offering suggestions, I just said "Good! It belongs on the Disney Channel!"  My Superfundamentalist, "take your Lois and Clark away from here" attitude didn't really solve his problem or help the guy at all. (I know that there's a Lois and Clark board here, but do you REALLY like the fact that the Kents are alive in his late 20s, he was never Superboy, etc.? Really?)

Rising to the bait...



I stand by that remark and note that I actually hate criticizing a worthwhile, not-for-profit project (that is, I hate myself, or at least that part of myself that has to express an opinion when confronted by lacklustre art, even if expressing the opinion means I will be branded a sourpuss --the shame of it!).

Other things I hate:

-people who are so timid and turned off by the occasional critical or negative comment on message boards that they abandon same*

-bad art (but I hate the art, not the artist --cartoonists as a social class have my undying love, graditude and respect)

-fascism and the non-democratic nature of capitalism

Things I love:

-Superman comics, cartoons, film and video from the 30s to the 80s, plus some contemporary examples

-all the people at Superman Through the Ages

-comics as an artform, in general, including some comics made as disposable "entertainment" (mostly classic kids comics like Superman, etc) but mainly comics that don't offend my super-refined sensibilities

-free and open debate

-the Paris Commune of 1848 --Viva la communista!


*indicates an exageration

I saw that thing you did on the other thread!

And I still hate* the fact that you didn't count cops as working class several months ago...just more evidence that while Superman is the folk hero of America, Superman Through the Ages actually HATES AMERICA! (Oh yeah, it feels good being able to finally use that phrase on someone else....)



* Ha!

Gangbuster Thorul hates freedom

Big brother sees all! :D

Here is some thinking about cops as working class, from an intro history/sociology online syllabus in the UK:



http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:ZlH3bAvDaZ0J:www.leeds.ac.uk/law/staff/lawdw... (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:ZlH3bAvDaZ0J:www.leeds.ac.uk/law/staff/lawdw/cyberpolice/pol3.htm+police+working+class&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4)

Edited for Love's sake!

Whoa, this topic is turning into a quasi-political slugfest!  :twisted:

Also, I wasn't mentioned as a member of the "hate-parade" either. I have to say, that just hurts man!

I know I'm new here, but I'm sure I made it very clear how much I HHHHAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEE the "Superman Returns" swimsuit. He looks like a ballerina. I can just see him pirouetting through the evening sky on his tippie toes.

A bit of controversy always makes for good entertainment. Or at least interesting discussions.  

I greet all with this: "Julle moenie so onder mekaar baklei nie, seuns. Netnou kry julle gevoelentjies seer."    :shock:
Translate that!!  Ha!!*

(*Nothing derogatory, don't worry)

Cheers!!

I edited my last post to be more loving.

It's February after all and Valentine's is coming up.

TELLE writes:



Come here and give me a hug, you big galoot.



Never mind.  Stay over there on your side of the room, pinko.

SuperMonkey writes:



Of course he does, because --- shhh! keep this to yourself --- his name is an anagram of "Luthor!"  :shock:

TELLE writes:



Okay, I need that hug again.

I wish I could quit you!*

*delivered in a mumbling drawl.  Where's my Oscar?

NIGHTWING - OSCAR? MORE LIKE A FELIX~ :wink:

What I have learned so far...

1. TELLE might even be more socialist than me
2. Nightwing used the word "pinko," demonstrating that he is a curmudgeon and hater of both Paris, and progress!
3. A poster called "MatterEaterLad" is on this forum. He must have been here for quite some time, but I've just been skipping over all of his posts.
4. Not even negativity on the forums (or the recognition thereof) can overcome Valentine's Day.
5. And finally, Monkeys! (http://www.ape-o-naut.org/famous/famous/reallife.html)

Nobody's perfect.



That's a great site, especially for the Noam Chomsky quote, but they missed some (http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Category:Super-Apes)!

Interesting sermon as always, Gangbuster. Keep it up.  :)