Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Obviously we know Psycho-Pirate remembers the DC Universe as it was, as does Power Girl now, and the Earth-2 Superman. However, who else may remember the pre-Crisis DC Universe?

THE WIZARD SHAZAM

It was hinted in the eighties POWER OF SHAZAM! miniseries that Shazam remembers the original Marvel Family when he gave the Earth-0 Billy Batson Marvel Powers.


RAVEN

Consider: Raven was not a participant in the original Crisis as a result of developments that were taking place in TITANS; even the Monitor and Anti-Monitor did not know where she was. Thus, it would be reasonable to assume that since they would not know where Raven was, they had no devices or machines to affect the perception of time from where Raven was when the multiverse restarted into a universe. When Raven returned in her white outfit, however, she showed nothing to indicate that she does remember anything of the multiverse.


THE PHANTOM STRANGER

The Phantom Stranger, like Guinan from Star Trek, is always sensitive to possible futures and the "rightness" and "wrongness" of timelines. For instance, in JLA/AVENGERS, it was he that showed the Leaguers and Avengers how their future would go if they stopped the plans of Krona. In Alan Brennert's "To Kill a Legend," the Phantom Stranger guided Batman to another Earth where the 20 year cycle of Batman losing his family began anew. And to be perfectly honest, the Stranger is so weird that it's really hard to tell what he does and does not know.

Incidentally, I recently reread the SECRET ORIGINS issue of the Phantom Stranger, which true to form, gave the Stranger four different origins: one by Levitz, one by Alan Moore, and another by Mike Barr. While I'm usually a big fan of Alan Moore, I hope that his origin is not the correct one: it had the Phantom Stranger be an angel who sided with neither God or the Devil. Angels and Devils and whatnot are WAY too trendy now, and having the Stranger sign on that bandwagon would be tragic.

Definites

The New Gods
The Time Trapper
Donna Troy
Linda Danvers
The Fatalist
The Guardians

Possibles

Hal Jordan
Superman

During Zero Hour it was revealed that The Linear Men knew about the Multiverse and the Crisis, probably since Vanishing Point is outside the timestream.

In Peter David's last "Supergirl' arc ("Many Happy Returns"), we see that the Spectre, Linda Danvers and the Fatalist all had SOME knowledge about the Pre-Crisis Multiverse.  Whether the Spectre or former host Hal Jordan still recall is unknown.  (I'm assuming the Spectre's new human host does NOT know.)

It's questionable whether Animal Man recalls what happened during the Grant Morrison run when he met Psycho-Pirate.  If so, then J'onn J'onzz also knows.

Did Harbinger REALLY remember?  Her "History of the DC Universe" that was sent into space (and later recovered by the Manhunters) was the POST-Crisis combined Earth chronology.  But apparently her orb now contains information about the Multiverse.  Perhaps Alexander Luthor somehow hacked into it after Harbinger's death?  And is Harbinger TRULY dead since she could split into multiple selves?

From his recent JSA appearance (where he mentions Huntress being "RETCONNED out of existance" -- that HAS to be Helena Wayne), it's likely Per Degaton knows about the Multiverse, or at least past timelines that once involved a Multiverse.

One wonders if the Titans of Myth recalled the old Multiverse, judging from "The Return of Donna Troy" miniseries.

When I was 21 there were many worlds
but when I was 22 there was only one!

Definitely Frank Sinatra DID remember but not any more. ;)

Darkseid created the Post-Crisis Parasite as a result of memories of the Pre-Crisis Parasite, which means it is very likely that the New Gods (at least those that reside in the Fourth World) remember the multiverse as it was.

One less obvious example was Dr. Ub'x, the chipmunk villain who achieved ultimate power (okay, YOU try and type that without laughing). Steve Englehart had Ub'x achieve ultimate power at the moment the Crisis took place, and consequently he was outside the cosmos when the Crisis happened and remembers everything.

Question: why would Hal Jordan remember the Pre-Crisis multiverse? Was it because he was the Spectre for a little while?

Yes, and during his time as Spectre he knew full well the fate that awaited the MHR Kara in her home reality. Also, he may have gained some knowledge of the multiverse during his time as Parallex (not too keen on that since I haven't read Zero Hour in years and no longer have the issues). It is unknown if Hal still possess these memories since his split with the Spectre. That's why I put him down as possible.

The current Superman should have some knowledge of the multiverse due to the letter that Linda Danvers sent him along with the visions he recieved during the Absolute Power arc in Superman/Batman.

Mordru, Emy, Amber,  and Amehtyst are highly porbables due to Gemworld being outside the temporal reboot effects.  Heck, Amethsyt had her own personal histroy rewritten after COIE(she wasn't supposed to exist and Emy was the natrual born daughter of the Winstons), but she retained her memories of how it was supposed to be.  She did restore Emy's memories of how things used to be.  Gemworld's history says Emy is Princess Emerald and Amy was the one to be raised by the Winstons.  Something is up with those involved with Gemworld

My take on Zero Hour was that Hal/Parallax remembered the Multiverse and wanted to restore it.  To be honest, I don't think this was stated outright, just implied...I suppose you could take the same dialog another way, but it sure sounded to me like he wanted to bring back the old days.

I remember it, because it was one of the few times I was actually rooting for the "villain." :-)

At the time, I considered it possible/likely that *all* heroes present at that "Dawn of Time" battle remembered the Multiverse (in fact I think someone in DC editorial SAID they did), but now it seems unlikely.

To be honest, there's no reason anyone in the DCU should remember the pre-Crisis Multiverse, considering most characters are re-booted on a bi-monthly basis and it's all they can do to remember last week, let alone 20 years ago. I'd care a lot more about continuity and who knew what when if DC gave a hoot themselves.  If nothing else comes out of IC, I hope when it's over DC has a system in place where their left hand will at last know what their right hand is doing.

But I doubt it.

This is a hard one.  I think possibly the more cosmic characters, like the Guardians, the New Gods, and mystics like Phantom Stranger would be able to remember.  Other than that, very very few would.

Here you go:

http://www.monitorduty.com/mdarchives/2005/12/precrisis_memor.shtml

That was a great article and gave quite a definitive list of who remembers the multiverse.  Thank you for sharing it.

I don't think that Animal Man remembers the stuff from the Morrison run, but his presence in the current Crisis makes me think that he'll soon remember.

Something not brought up by that article is Many Happy Returns. At the end of the last Supergirl series, Mae traveled back to the pre-Crisis period and had a child with a Superman from another earth. The Spectre (Hal Jordan) convinced her to return and let Kara Zor-El take her place in fighting the anti-Monitor...the mix-up was all the Fatalist's fault, so he knows about the Multiverse too.

Also, I find it hard to believe that Swamp Thing wouldn't know, or have the ability to know. Surely, the Plant Kingdom would know that something went on...Swampy himself was recycled by the whole thing.

Other than that, the knowledge would be limited to cosmic beings (maybe Oans), gods, and those time travelers, if they're still around.

The people who fought the antiMonitor at the beginning of time have it stored somewhere in their subconscious, because E2 Superman still remembers.

Lady Quark died 10 years ago, and Harbinger and Pariah were offed right before this current Crisis.

Hi there to everyone!

I'm a new member of this message board, and this is my very first post. I'm from Italy and a big fan of Superman.
I got one question:in Rann/Thanagar Infinite Crisis special the Kilowog's ring recognize SuperboyPrime as the one who have really putted Thanagar out of his orbit,i remember that the Guardian have no memories of the multiverse,how is this possible?

They Guardians have recently been reborn, so it's likely this is the reason why they don't remember the multiverse.  The power rings?  That's a different story.  They have had a history of knowing things that no one else would be able to know.

Well, the Central Power Battery can link with the Book of Oa which has been shown to know things that the Guardians don't know, such as predicting the future.

Due to production delays, the publication of Infinite Crisis and its tie-ins among the various DC titles has been somewhat out-of-sync.  (Supergirl's latest issue combined #5 and #6 to make the "One Year Later" deadline, while Superboy fans were left scratching their heads trying to figure out the chronological order of his recent appearances.)  It's possible that the Guardian's knowledge of Superboy-Prime will be revealed in a future issue, but there's a lot of action "behind the scenes" so far that hasn't been addressed.  

Perhaps word somehow got to the Guardians, who then immediately sent the updated information to the rings.  But until we get specific verification, this is still mere conjecture.

I understand Infinite Crisis: Secret Files and Origins 2006 will be out soon.  Perhaps some of the missing "gaps" will be filled here.

 I hope so! I wish that this revamp of the DC universe doesn't have continuity mess like the whole Hawkman story!
Thank's to all who have gave me an answer by the way :D !!

I remember the Multiverse as it was! LOL! BTW, cool avatar SwordofSuperman; where'd you get it?

Thanks but it not comes from me, i find it between those available when i joined the forum.

I do ... and I hope they get it right with Infinite Crisis, because, in my opinion, Crisis on Infinite Earths caused more problems than it solved.

For example, there was absolutely no logical reason whatsoever to eliminate Superboy from the Superman mythos (I don't care what John Byrne or any of these other so-called "professionals" say). Axing Superboy from the Man of Steel's history did nothing to "bring Superman back to his roots", and caused untold chaos for the Legion of Super-Heroes ... which still persists to this day ... 20 years layer.

Another example is the history of Hawkman. What the hell went on there? Everything was perfectly fine until Crisis came along and after that everything seemed to go ka-blooie! Hawkman's entire continuity got messed up almost beyond recognition, and every attempt made to fix the problem only made it worse. If the original Hawkman had to die, then we should've been left with the Silver Age Hawkman (Katar Hol of Thanagar) and been done with it.

On the death of Supergirl: Again, this wasn't really necessary to preserve Superman's "uniqueness". If the Girl of Steel were allowed to survive the Crisis, then Superman would've still retained the title of "Last Son of Krypton". I could take the elimination of the Kandorians and the Phantom Zone villains in order to make Superman "unique" again (even though I wouldn't have liked it). Why? Because there would've been a fathomable reason for it. Supergirl's death need not have happened. And even if it were made necessary, then they should've left it alone ... and let her death stand as an honorable one (like Barry Allen's). They shouldn't have ridiculed her memory by making infantile attempts to resurrect her with endless Supergirl wannabes that are only pale shadows of the original. What are we up to now ... Version 4.0, for God's sake?

Power Girl? See my comments on Hawkman, because Crisis messed her up just as badly.

Hal Jordan. Poor Hal ... here's a magnificent hero, beloved by millions, who got the shaft as if he were some crummy second-string wannabe. Although his downfall didn't really have anything directly to do with the Crisis, it was the result of bone-headed Post-Crisis writing for the sole purpose of making a buck ... much like Crisis was. At least Barry Allen and Kara Zor-El were given deaths that befitted their heroic nature. Hal Jordan was turned into one of the worst villains imaginable ... and for what reason? So they could make an inept attempt at repairing the damage that John Byrne and company did to the Legion of Super-Heroes by deleting Superboy from their history.

I think that's enough for now. I think I've made my point.

I'm a little confused.  How did Hal Jordan's death help with the situation of Superboy and the Legion?

It didn't. DC created the Zero Hour event in an attempt to wipe the Legion's history clean and start over because of the tremendous damage Superboy's absence caused as a result of the Crisis. Hal Jordan, as Parallax, was the center of that company-wide debacle when he tried to recreate the DC Universe in order to restore the destroyed population of Star City during the Reign of the Supermen story arc ... an event that drove him over the edge. DC tried to use Zero Hour to repair the damage done to the Legion ... or at least, sweep it under the rug.

Spoilers here.


The Infinite Crisis special came out and they are saying that Superboy Prime's pounding on the wall that imprisoned them caused all the changed in the DC Universe over the past few years.  So, the Doom Partrol revamp and everything else is because of this.  His breaking out messed things up as well.

I wonder what DC will use ten years from now to explain all the problems they've caused with senseless changes?

A doctor's note?

Their dog ate it

A couple of others to add to the list:

Dominus (villian during the Superman: King of the World storyline)

Kismet (general cosmic entity and used to be Sharon Vance/Strange Visitor)

How can post-Crisis characters remember the pre-Crisis multiverse if they were never around for it?

:s:

The same reason the Spectre and the Guardians do, they are cosmic beings.

Dominus was the villian who altered reality during Superman Forever (setting Supes in the Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age) and the later Superman issues that led up to the King of the World arc.

You've got a couple of the stories from this arc uploaded on the main site.

Actually it was the lack of any real plan or editoral control after crisis that caused the problems.



Well the Legion by that time was already a continuity nightmare.  You just ignored it.  If the writers of legion had rebooted along with the 'new' reality  things woudl ahe been fine.  But the Cosmic Boy min series forced everybody's hand and things basicly went haywire form there as the Legion kept rebooting itself until End of era.




Actually everything was fine Post-Crisis until Hawkworld showed up.  This series took everything done with the Hawkman character Post-Crisis and threw it out the window.



Actually the LSH had already fixed that by replacing Superboy with Valor but then some idiot hack killed Valor off and LSH history promply went pearshaped again.  Also by this time the continuity in every book was SNAFU City.  Zero Hour didn't do anything as LSH continuity is still FUBARed and talking about Sueprman these days give you more headaches than Hawkman every did.

Hawkworld did mess up the Silver Age Hawkman.  They could have used the same explanation they ended up using, that the Golden Age Hawkman was visited by Katar Hall's father and helped with the invention of Nth Metal.  He was inspired by Carte Hall's Hawkman role and then created the Hawk Police on Thanagar.  But they had to completely wipe out the Silver Age Hawkman and ended up creating a hugh problem.

The Legion could have worked post Byrne if they had included Supergirl and all the Silver Age concepts into the pocket Universe.  In other words, say that the pocket Universe was what the Legion had experience with.  But they had to kill off Superboy and then ignore all the Supergirl appearances.  DC at it's worst, trying to explain something but leaving the job half done.  The pocket Universe could have been a great way of preserving all the Silver Age Superman/Supergirl/Jimmy Olsen stuff but they fell on their faces.

Or...

I guess, DC could have had the courage of their so-called convictions and stuck to a melded universe where some characters never have new origins or exist at all...that could mean years of building a new mythos, ignoring something they already had because of a 50 year history...I find it ironic that pocket universes, hypertime, and backward and forward flowing timelines are much more difficult to understand than the so-called insanely confusing multiple universes...

I liked the guts it took to do Crisis, but it seems that DC wanted all the spectacle and sales -- and none of the hard post-Crisis work...

I don't agree on the continuity "running wild", it was just the result of a long history...

I had stopped reading comics in 1972 or so, so I just treated Crisis as a sort of "death" without any feelings for what came after -- I just think that if they were going to do it, they should have done something really new...but the "complicated DC universe" never struck me as a true reason...