Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Superman Comic Books! => Infinite Crossover! => Topic started by: Michel Weisnor on February 22, 2006, 02:08:29 PM



Title: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: Michel Weisnor on February 22, 2006, 02:08:29 PM
http://store1.yimg.com/I/wizarduniverse_1886_58206219


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: nightwing on February 22, 2006, 03:25:27 PM
Oops!  Does that qualify as a spoiler?

Not really.  Anyone who thought DC could still pull this series off with anything like dignity and respect for its history should go sit in the corner.

You know who you are.


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: Super Monkey on February 22, 2006, 03:46:58 PM
Well, that's a Wizard cover not a DC comic, so don't get too excited, but if it's true, I wouldn't want to say I told you so, but (fill in the blank).


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: Great Rao on February 22, 2006, 04:04:16 PM
I read a preview of that issue of Spiderman.  Written by JMS and the new costume looks pretty cool.

:s:


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: DoctorZero on February 24, 2006, 05:19:01 PM
I certainly hope that's just Wizard's outlook on things.

I'm not excited about Spiderman's new costume.  Too Iron Man looking for me.


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: Great Rao on February 24, 2006, 10:38:09 PM
Quote from: "DoctorZero"
I certainly hope that's just Wizard's outlook on things.

It's got to be, because it doesn't mean anything.  Outlook on what?  What is that cover supposed to be a picture of?  E-1 and E-2 getting smashed together?  That already happened 20 years ago.  The new E-2 Superman is all about bringing E-2 back - I don't see how that picture could be interpreted as illustrating such an event.  Nor could it even be the destruction of the DCU (as the Wizard cover seems to claim) since there is only one Earth in the DCU, so that other one couldn't have come from anyplace.

Besides, we already learned in JSA that it's Power Girl, not Superman, who is going to decide the DCU's outcome.

I think this is just a Wizard concept cover that's attempting to say something but really means nothing.

Quote
I'm not excited about Spiderman's new costume.  Too Iron Man looking for me.

You're right, Spidey's new costume is somewhat Iron Man looking.  Probably because Tony Stark designed it.

:s:


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: JulianPerez on February 25, 2006, 03:02:44 PM
Oh, man, Superdickery is going to have a FIELD DAY with that cover.

Not to sound all sniveling and Gollum-like, but "...the master would never hurtses us!" C'mon, this is Geoff Johns, the guy that treated the crossdressing, butch female Red Tornado with dignity and respect; you think he can't spare a cup of that for the first Superhero ever?

But hey, WIZARD magazine wouldn't jump to crazy conclusions, right? I mean, that might compromise their storied reputation for journalistic integrity!

Now, is it wrong of me to find that, on a cover where some artist messes with the classic Ditko Spider-Man duds, Superman looks all wild-eyed and crazy banging earths together, that the single most terrifying thing on that cover is the idea of FAMILY GUY comics? Oy.

What happened to those grand old TOP CAT comics and the ADVENTURES OF BOB HOPE? Now, don't get me wrong, I love flatulence and midgets as much as the next red blooded comedy lover, but FAMILY GUY's alternation of "shock value" gags like Hitler having his own talk show with pop culture references to stuff like Gilligan's Island never impressed me.


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: DBN on February 25, 2006, 04:46:35 PM
Quote
Not to sound all sniveling and Gollum-like, but "...the master would never hurtses us!" C'mon, this is Geoff Johns, the guy that treated the crossdressing, butch female Red Tornado with dignity and respect; you think he can't spare a cup of that for the first Superhero ever?


He's already turned Superboy Prime into a murderer and currently writes Kal-L as a naive lackey to Alex Luthor with a Parallex-fetish.


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: Johnny Nevada on February 25, 2006, 06:19:40 PM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Oh, man, Superdickery is going to have a FIELD DAY with that cover.

Not to sound all sniveling and Gollum-like, but "...the master would never hurtses us!" C'mon, this is Geoff Johns, the guy that treated the crossdressing, butch female Red Tornado with dignity and respect; you think he can't spare a cup of that for the first Superhero ever?

But hey, WIZARD magazine wouldn't jump to crazy conclusions, right? I mean, that might compromise their storied reputation for journalistic integrity!

Now, is it wrong of me to find that, on a cover where some artist messes with the classic Ditko Spider-Man duds, Superman looks all wild-eyed and crazy banging earths together, that the single most terrifying thing on that cover is the idea of FAMILY GUY comics? Oy.

What happened to those grand old TOP CAT comics and the ADVENTURES OF BOB HOPE? Now, don't get me wrong, I love flatulence and midgets as much as the next red blooded comedy lover, but FAMILY GUY's alternation of "shock value" gags like Hitler having his own talk show with pop culture references to stuff like Gilligan's Island never impressed me.


I liked the recent Mad Magazine that covered (and justifiably ripped into) Family Guy (mostly comparing it to the Simpsons).

Never liked "Family Guy" either---feels like a poor ripoff of both "South Park"  and "The Simpsons" (while missing both show's strong points). Well, I do like Stewie the baby and Brian the dog, but not willing to put up with everything else about said show just to see one or two characters I might like (guess similar to how I don't like any of the characters on Smallville save for Lex, and don't watch the show... yeah, so I sort of got back on topic :-) )


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: Super Monkey on February 25, 2006, 08:15:15 PM
Stewie is nothing but a shameless rip off of the baby version of Jimmy Corrigan, the Smartest Kid on Earth.

See for yourself: http://www.kempa.com/ware/bigJCFG.gif


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: JulianPerez on February 27, 2006, 01:48:37 AM
Quote from: "DBN"
He's already turned Superboy Prime into a murderer and currently writes Kal-L as a naive lackey to Alex Luthor with a Parallex-fetish.


Yeah, but who the hell was Superboy-Prime, anyway? I'm all for giving respect to characters with history, but the thing here is this: at least as a villain Superboy-Prime has a personality...and something to do. It's not like he was Hal Jordan, who is universaly beloved and has a history of writers giving him a strong characterization and a real personality, and who, further, fulfills a niche in DC ecology.

I shed a tear when HAWKWORLD and LONGBOW HUNTERS made Hawkman and Green Arrow unrecognizeable and conceptually divorced, not to mention unoriginal trend-trollers. But why are we getting all sentimental about Superboy-Prime, anyway? My attachment is to the Pre-Crisis DC history, and Superboy-Prime was a character created for Crisis that didn't survive Crisis.

Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Stewie is nothing but a shameless rip off of the baby version of Jimmy Corrigan, the Smartest Kid on Earth.

See for yourself: http://www.kempa.com/ware/bigJCFG.gif


Wait...you mean FAMILY GUY may not be 100% original? My world no longer makes sense.


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: DBN on February 27, 2006, 05:32:50 AM
Quote
Yeah, but who the hell was Superboy-Prime, anyway? I'm all for giving respect to characters with history, but the thing here is this: at least as a villain Superboy-Prime has a personality...and something to do. It's not like he was Hal Jordan, who is universaly beloved and has a history of writers giving him a strong characterization and a real personality, and who, further, fulfills a niche in DC ecology.


What personality? The kid was written as a jealous (plus whiny) fanboy and a complete tool just to make Kon-El look good.

Not to mention the fact that his lackey-status completly contradicts Alex's statement about the Luthor/Superman relationship.

The only saving grace to all of this mess would be if the Psycho Pirate and/or the Anti-Monitor was manipulating them.

So far Infinite Crisis is shaping up to be a bad rehash of Zero Hour.


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: Dylan Clearbrook on February 27, 2006, 05:35:52 AM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"

Yeah, but who the hell was Superboy-Prime, anyway? I'm all for giving respect to characters with history, but the thing here is this: at least as a villain Superboy-Prime has a personality...and something to do. It's not like he was Hal Jordan, who is universaly beloved and has a history of writers giving him a strong characterization and a real personality, and who, further, fulfills a niche in DC ecology.

I shed a tear when HAWKWORLD and LONGBOW HUNTERS made Hawkman and Green Arrow unrecognizeable and conceptually divorced, not to mention unoriginal trend-trollers. But why are we getting all sentimental about Superboy-Prime, anyway? My attachment is to the Pre-Crisis DC history, and Superboy-Prime was a character created for Crisis that didn't survive Crisis.


Hmmmm.  How to explain.....Look at him :)

SB-Prime is the closest thing we are ever going to get to the original Superboy...THAT is what it is all about.   He had the same personality, everything except the history (the original Superboy knew who and what he was from a young age)

SB-Prime could have slipped into the role easily and would have been accepted.  And would have been better than what we ended up with...Kon (superpunk) El....gag.

When they did this to him...they soiled the image of the original Superboy.

So it was not so much Superboy Prime they destroyed...it was the Image he represented to many fans...the TRUE Superboy.

That's reason enough to be disgusted, don't you think?

Dylan


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2006, 10:46:01 AM
yes.. suberboy could have been retconned into being superman as a kid with a really crappy origin...

of course then man of steel wouldn't have happened....


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: Dylan Clearbrook on February 27, 2006, 08:20:26 PM
Quote from: "sikkbones"
yes.. suberboy could have been retconned into being superman as a kid with a really crappy origin...


crappy origin? Depends on your point of view I suppose.  I think it would have been great.

Quote from: "sikkbones"

of course then man of steel wouldn't have happened....


And this would be a bad thing how?

I am NOT a fan of the Byrnes Blasphemy :)

Dylan


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: Great Rao on February 27, 2006, 09:57:24 PM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Yeah, but who the hell was Superboy-Prime, anyway? I'm all for giving respect to characters with history, but the thing here is this: at least as a villain Superboy-Prime has a personality...and something to do. It's not like he was Hal Jordan, who is universaly beloved and has a history of writers giving him a strong characterization and a real personality, and who, further, fulfills a niche in DC ecology.

Julian, ref this post (http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2263&start=4).

:s:


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: Johnny Nevada on February 27, 2006, 10:39:01 PM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Quote from: "DBN"
He's already turned Superboy Prime into a murderer and currently writes Kal-L as a naive lackey to Alex Luthor with a Parallex-fetish.


Yeah, but who the hell was Superboy-Prime, anyway? I'm all for giving respect to characters with history, but the thing here is this: at least as a villain Superboy-Prime has a personality...and something to do. It's not like he was Hal Jordan, who is universaly beloved and has a history of writers giving him a strong characterization and a real personality, and who, further, fulfills a niche in DC ecology.

I shed a tear when HAWKWORLD and LONGBOW HUNTERS made Hawkman and Green Arrow unrecognizeable and conceptually divorced, not to mention unoriginal trend-trollers. But why are we getting all sentimental about Superboy-Prime, anyway? My attachment is to the Pre-Crisis DC history, and Superboy-Prime was a character created for Crisis that didn't survive Crisis.

Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Stewie is nothing but a shameless rip off of the baby version of Jimmy Corrigan, the Smartest Kid on Earth.

See for yourself: http://www.kempa.com/ware/bigJCFG.gif


Wait...you mean FAMILY GUY may not be 100% original? My world no longer makes sense.


Going with what the others said... plus as we saw of his upbringing, don't see how anything there, or that he should've been being taken care of by Kal-L and Earth-2 Lois, including being trained in the use of his powers by Kal-L while they were in that dimensional "paradise" all those years, would result in what I saw in IC ("jealous" of some clone that's not been around as long as SB-Prime has and who's had a rather tumultuous life during his short existence, plus a very sloppy use of his powers? Uh, yeah...whatever...).

Re: Family Guy: I'd settle for it being *1%* original. ;-)


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: MatterEaterLad on February 27, 2006, 11:41:40 PM
I admit that I have far less concern for Superboy Prime than Hal Jordan, there's much less history, though I don't think he was created just to be absorbed by the Crisis...but I don't see much of a reason to tromp on him either.

But then, I'm old and don't really care for the "Sword of Superman" either... 8)


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: The Spider on February 28, 2006, 02:11:29 PM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Oh, man, Superdickery is going to have a FIELD DAY with that cover.



I went and gave the latest WIZARD a read.  There's an article in there where WIZARD does their own version of Superdickery by going through the old Golden Age comics and snarkily commenting on specific panels.

And there was something in the Infinite Crisis article about how it was Jeph Loeb's idea for them to incorporate Earth-2 Superman into the story, but I can't remember at the moment.


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: Maximara on March 02, 2006, 07:24:14 AM
Quote from: "The Spider"
went and gave the latest WIZARD a read.  There's an article in there where WIZARD does their own version of Superdickery by going through the old Golden Age comics and snarkily commenting on specific panels.

And there was something in the Infinite Crisis article about how it was Jeph Loeb's idea for them to incorporate Earth-2 Superman into the story, but I can't remember at the moment.


One problem is that the 'Earth-2' Superman is NOT the Golden age Superman. The Golden age superman started out as a Phillip Marlo/Sam Spade like character with superpowers ('See this iron bar?' -twist- 'This is your neck if you do not tell me what I want to know.'). By the 1940's he had been toned down but we have seen that his values are not as clean and nice as they have been retroactively shown. Man of Steel #80-82 caught the spirit of that era and there is a hard edge there that was missing from the Earth-2 version


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: JulianPerez on March 02, 2006, 12:36:01 PM
Quote from: "Maximara"
One problem is that the 'Earth-2' Superman is NOT the Golden age Superman. The Golden age superman started out as a Phillip Marlo/Sam Spade like character with superpowers ('See this iron bar?' -twist- 'This is your neck if you do not tell me what I want to know.'). By the 1940's he had been toned down but we have seen that his values are not as clean and nice as they have been retroactively shown. Man of Steel #80-82 caught the spirit of that era and there is a hard edge there that was missing from the Earth-2 version


True, the differences between the two characters of Earth-1 and Earth-2 Superman were intentionally played up, however, through many occasions it has been shown that Earth-2 Superman is if not the Golden Age Superman in details, Golden Age Superman in spirit. For example, unlike the Earth-1 Superman, Earth-2 Superman was intelligent but not a great scientific genius, and because he went through most of his existence without other powers, Earth-2 Superman tends to use his strength and invulnerability a lot more. Earth-2 Superman always had something of an edge that the slightly bemused Earth-1 Superman never had.


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: Maximara on March 02, 2006, 09:50:41 PM
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Quote from: "Maximara"
One problem is that the 'Earth-2' Superman is NOT the Golden age Superman. The Golden age superman started out as a Phillip Marlo/Sam Spade like character with superpowers ('See this iron bar?' -twist- 'This is your neck if you do not tell me what I want to know.'). By the 1940's he had been toned down but we have seen that his values are not as clean and nice as they have been retroactively shown. Man of Steel #80-82 caught the spirit of that era and there is a hard edge there that was missing from the Earth-2 version


True, the differences between the two characters of Earth-1 and Earth-2 Superman were intentionally played up, however, through many occasions it has been shown that Earth-2 Superman is if not the Golden Age Superman in details, Golden Age Superman in spirit. For example, unlike the Earth-1 Superman, Earth-2 Superman was intelligent but not a great scientific genius, and because he went through most of his existence without other powers, Earth-2 Superman tends to use his strength and invulnerability a lot more. Earth-2 Superman always had something of an edge that the slightly bemused Earth-1 Superman never had.


I would debate the Earth-1 Superman being a great scientific genius.  For example Luthor lost his hair after making an antidote to Kryptonite and yet when Superman fails to recreate an antidote he stupidly thinks that there is no antidote.  The obvious solutions of having a piece of blue K readily available never occurs nor does the idea of having a portable red sun ray in case he gets into another green K death trap al Superman Vol 1 #130.

Also when Kara and Lois were dying of the same disease that killed his
parents Kal-El accepts the excuse about how they cannot change history BS from his friends in the Legion even though by this time he KNOWS that there is no one future for Earth.  Finally Stupidman realized he was exposed as well and he has the antibodies in his blood; Well DUH! That is middle School biology you Supermoron.

The Earth-1 Superman was forever doing stupid things like this.


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: King Krypton on March 04, 2006, 04:52:48 PM
Quote from: "The Spider"
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Oh, man, Superdickery is going to have a FIELD DAY with that cover.



I went and gave the latest WIZARD a read.  There's an article in there where WIZARD does their own version of Superdickery by going through the old Golden Age comics and snarkily commenting on specific panels.


One of the panels they ripped on ("This patrol was getting dull") was from the Bronze Age. It was a Dennis O'Neil-scripted Superman/Flash team-up drawn by Dick Dillin.


Title: Re: E-2 Superman: Death of Character
Post by: DoctorZero on March 05, 2006, 08:40:57 AM
I see the points about Superman, supposedly having a super brain, wasn't as intelligent as he should have been.  He certainly should have been on a par with Luthor, which he clearly wasn't.