Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Since categories are always going to be subjective, and are hard to remember, can there be rule that only the Council of Wisdom can change them?  For example, to me, "Historical Figures" was meant for real world folks who show up in comic stories, not all comic people that lived in the comic's past...time periods, to me, are tricky as well...what is the "past" of "future" in comics always changes, so sticking to the era when the story came out seems best...at least that's what I thought.

Just wondering...

talk to these guys:

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Supermanica:Administrators


I agree, less is more.

too many unnecessary Categories only serves to make things more confusing.

Well, this is the place for feedback so I thought I'd bring it up here...an open thing like Wiki probably always invites different opinions, I guess mine would be to keep categories to a minimum and then add more close to the end, after thousands of entries...anyways, I'll send a tag to this thread...

Anyways, you are a sysop, so maybe you could help me, should I remove "historical figures" for past fictional characters from comics?

I also don't think the "future" category works too well, what is the future always changes and many characters move from the present to the past and to the future...

I don't want to step on someone's edits though...

I agree with you, but I have no control over these things.

Yeah, no problemo... 8)

Anyways, the "future" category doesn't work for me, but I am just one dude.

But I think I will take off "historical figures" on fictional DC characters from the past, just doesn't seem to fit the definition...anyways, DrJohnnyDiablo did catch some that should be historical figures...

historical figures could be ok, as long as it's only for DC's take of non-fiction or supposedly non-fiction figures from history.

The future one however, is lame, since 2006 was the future in the sliver age. Remember the Superman 2001 story?

Stupid one-way passing time... 8)

Since both the Future and Historical Figures categories were created by DrJohnnyDiablo, he's the one who's toes would be stepped on.  I don't have a preference either way, but it might make sense to at least find out what he was trying to accomplish, and make sure that he's not adding entries to the categories at the same time you guys are removing them...

:s:

Thanks...I guess I just get confused about how much of that kind of editing ought to be done on an open database...if someone changes a lot of entries at once, it makes a big difference....I didn't want to step on DrJohnnyDiablo's toes, and I don't want to be out of line, but I was wondering if new categories ought to be discussed in this forum first?  I don't know...

I also don't know how "finished" these databases ought to be before they get close to being done...if there are 5,000 entries one day, it would take a while to change the categories on a lot of entries...

But I could be wrong, I don't know...the weird thing about organization is everyone has a different idea about how to do it.

On questionable categories:

I would echo Super Monkey on this --for me, a canon-specific category, like "Legion of Super-Heroes", seems more appropriate than a more vague and harder-to-define category like "The Future".   If anything, "The Future" would make an excellent entry under the category "Theoretical Concepts".  

On the other hand, The Future category seems superfluous at first, but maybe it would be useful to have a way to categorize every entry from Superman's future.  A handy answer to the question, "How many Superman stories take place in Superman's future?"  or "How many involve time travel?" Maybe "Time-Travel" or "The Far Future" or "Post-Superman" would be a better, more specific category.  A Century-specific category would be too specific and prone to being outdated.

As for historical figures, my initial feeling is to confine the category to people familiar to us readers as being from our own Earth's history, ancient to contemporary (ie, GW Bush, Curt Swan).  Although maybe a more accurate definition of the category would read, "humans from the time before Superman's birth" --which would eliminate all the then-current Presidents Superman has met, as well as the various celebrities (Ali, Einstein --what category would they go into if the book was being written when they were in the news).  A tough call.  Maybe it depends on how we envision the wiki being used: Do we organize it from our point of view or Superman's?  

The other thing we have to remember is one of the strictures laid down in the original Great Superman Book, where it is noted (Hail Fleisher!) that the articles and (hence, I would argue) the categories are written as if Superman is a real living person and his adventures really took place.  Therefore, it is not our future or past but Superman's that we are writing about.

On merciless editing:

These open-text wiki things breed thick skins among the users but it is a tribute to the community here that we are discussing this.  I would encourage pre-discussion of massive re-categorization but I am also mindful of the pleasant surprise I get when I see a new category that in hindsight was clearly needed.  I also know the fun to be had in creating new categories when the inspiration strikes.  I see it as a fun gift to my fellow editors and readers to add something overnight that changes the way readers can use the resource.  Of copurse, sometimes these things benefit from sober second thought(s).

Dr Johnny?

Hi, folks.

I know that the two categories that I just added might seem superfluous, but I really felt that it was "important" (or at least interesting) to group together Time-Travel-related characters.

I have approached these categories from the POV of Supes or Kara, Lois or Jimmy-whoever the feature character of the story was.

I admit that "The Future" is not a great name for the category ("The Far Future" sounds better), but there are a lot of interesting non-LSH future characters in the Chronicles.

As for the "Historical Figures", in the Chronicles wouldn't Erok-El and other ancient Kryptonians (in fact, all fictional historical characters regardless of their status in real life) be considered historical figures?

World War II-era characters such as Sgt. Rock present a dilemma because Fleisher says that Superman debuted in 1938 and would therefore be a contemporary. For the moment, I have left the WWII characters out of this category.

I guess more discussion is in order, to reach a concensus.

I will hold off working on these categories for the time being.

another reason why I don't like the name:



http://superman.nu/tales4/futuremen/

Following up on why I don't think past. present, future categories work...

Example 1:

The Kents are dead in many stories, they are chronicled in stories, but are they historical figures?

Example 2:

Kristin Wells comes from the 29th century to be the hero in the 20th century that she came from the future to investigate and that story is chronicled as part of the past

Example 3:

Superboy traveled to the 30th century to have adventures but to him and as far as the chronicles, they happened 40 years ago, and if that's Earth 1, these adventures happened to Superboy in anywhere from the 1940s to the 1950s in Earth 1 "time"...

These kind of paradoxes are cool and make comics fun, but they are hard to put in a "category"...and then you add in the fact that Supermanica ends in 1986 "real time" and it just gets confusing...

More specific categories, like The Far Future or The Distant Past/Pre-Superman might clear some of that up.

Part of the Kristin Wells stories always make reference to The Far Future.

Historical Figures is still tougher, to me.  The temptation is to say Real World Persons but, as we all know, Superman's adventures take place in the real world.

if it's that vague, perhaps it shouldn't be a category.

The futuremen were from the year 2000.

The TGSB was written from the viewpoint of the present day, we should stick with that viewpoint.



We should try to make the Supermanica as user friendly as possible. adding lost of more categories is not going to do that.

Why, didn't he just make a Time-Travel category?

for NON-Legion future and distant past folks that Superman has meet time-traveling or who have meet Superman time traveling themselves.

The Legion folks already have their own category, so this one should be only for non legion characters.

We should make that clear and supply a link to the Legion category in the category description main page. We can have something like: For the Legion of Super-heroes, please see legion.... as a link.

include this entry http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Time_Travel

and now you have something useful.

That makes a lot more sense to me, what do you all think?

I agree pretty much though I'm not 100% clear on your second point...for sure, I think there should be a discussion before adding a category, why not, it gives folks something to yack about in the Supermanica forum? 8)

Maybe I'm just too personally hung up on time periods (other than the period of the comic being published)...for example, with Luthor, a "scientist" is a "scientist" no matter whether he has adventures in the past, present or future...

Super Monkey, that's a good idea.  Time-Travel.

I think more categories are useful for lumping things together.  If for no other reasn than they help us answer our trivia questions (name all the Super monkeys in the mythos, for example).

Yeah, but then I'm going to want to separate Super prosimians, New World and Old World monkeys (platyrhines and catarhines), and true apes... :lol:

BTW, why a "Cats" category but no dogs, apes, horses, etc.  Isn't "Animals" enough?

I guess not, but perhaps you missed these:

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Category:Super-Apes

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Category:Super-Dogs

also

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Category:Pets

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Category:Legion_of_Super-Pets



I don't know if pets is needed.

8)

Ah, sub categories, perfect for "Cats" as well...

OK, here's a question about super dogs, should Ace, the Bat-Hound be entered, I can't find a direct tie in to Superman?

Of course!!!

World's Finest Comics No. 143, August 1964: "The Feud Between Batman and Superman!"

Reprinted in World's Finest Comics #197 October-November 1970 Giant Size Issue

Character appearances:
Jimmy Olsen; Nightwing and Flamebird, Kandor; Fortress; Than-Ar; Jhan-Ar; Ace the Bathound; Nor-Kan; Nighthound; Metalloids

This was the last appearance of the legendary Ace the Bathound and the only time that Ace appeared with Superman.
This story had it all, here is a review from http://hometown.aol.com/mg4273/superman.htm:

The Feud Between Batman and Superman (World's Finest #143, August 1964). Writer: Edmond Hamilton. Art: Curt Swan. Based on a cover by Curt Swan.

Superman and Jimmy Olsen return to Kandor as Nightwing and Flamebird, this time accompanied by Batman and Robin. Since Batman and Robin were the original models for Nightwing and Flamebird, it makes delightful sense to have them get into the series. The story also allows Batman to see Kandor, apparently for the very first time, and to learn Kryptonese, which he is partly taught by Jimmy Olsen, an old hand at Kandor and the language. Like other Hamilton stories set in Kandor, this one tries to explore Kryptonian traditions. Here Hamilton has flashbacks depicting detective work on old Krypton.

Batman is morose throughout this tale, and the feud that develops between him and Superman is not much fun. However, the treatment of Kryptonian animals here is terrific. Dogs had appeared in both earlier tales in this series. Here they return, in ways that are both logical and surprising. Hamilton has thought deeply about the logical implications of their nature in the earlier stories, and come up with a novel use of them. The Kandorian dogs, their abilities, and one particular animal, Nighthound, are now incorporated in the Superman mythos. Such logical developments are typical of the Superman mythos. It shows a deep internal consistency, with its logical possibilities fully realized. The mythos is always undergoing development, like an unfolding piece of classical music.

Awesome.

The animal categories are my favourite.