Superman Through the Ages! Forum

There has been a lot of angry reaction to the movie by people on the right-of-center side of the political spectrum. The critiques have three major problems with the film: its "acceptance" of gayness (or gay agenda), Superman having a child with an unmarried Lois Lane, and the absence of the "American Way" from dialogue.

Have a look for yourself:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/keyword?k=superman

Obviously the response to Superman is off for three reasons:

1) Superman isn't gay. Director Bryan Singer said that of all the characters he's ever done, Superman is one of the straightest. Superman has been characterized as heterosexual for decades: Superman has had a lot - a LOT - of girlfriends: Sally Sellwyn, that girl from Krypton he was into during "The War Between Krypton and Earth," Triplicate Girl/Duo Damsel, Lois Lane, Lana Lang, that mermaid chick, and so on, ad infinitum. And saying that Superman is gay would deny the very real passion that he obviously has with Lois Lane in the movie.

It is true, however, that the gay cable television network, Logo, has been hyping up the Superman movie - but this has more to do with the fact that Superman is a character leading a double-life, which many people that are gay can empathize with (and many that aren't gay do as well; even this isn't an intrinsically "gay" theme).

Many call Supeman a "Metrosexual girly-man," however, I think this says more about our culture's unrealistic and unattainable concept of masculinity than anything about someone as obviously macho as Superman.


2) The absence of the "American Way" line. It is true that a kind of old school Americanism was a big part of Superman, however, Superman has gradually been creeping away from signs of red-blooded nationalism into a "citizen of the world" status as a character for DECADES now, that it just isn't fair to focus exclusively on SUPERMAN RETURNS for doing so. Arguably, the move away from the "American Way" started in the Weisenger Years, when Dorfman, Binder and other writers wrote Superman more and more as a lonely alien being who, because he was not from Earth, thus did not see the distinctions that we human beings make amongst ourselves as being truly meaningful.


3) Lois isn't a "slut." Of all the critiques of the film, this one gets my goat the most, because it is the most ugly, degrading, and hypocritical. The fact that Lois Lane had a child by Superman does not make her an immoral woman. Clearly, she loves the child and raises him, and together with Cyclops she gives the kid a home. Lois even married some square so that the kid could grow up with a Daddy.


Ultimately, I think the problem with these critiques is they have a flawed view of what it is that entertainment is supposed to do. Their view is that escapist entertainment is a platform for moral instruction. This is not to say that you can't learn quite a bit from entertainment (I doubt I'd be unique in this board if I said that I probably learned more from Superman in my life than I did from anyone else except my Father). However, ultimately, the goal of entertainment and fiction is NOT to provide role models or how to live one's life - that's what responsible parents, educators and religious leaders are for.

And finally, one person had THIS to say:



I absolutely love how, in the sea of phobia for "the queer lobby" and the Lois Lane slut-calling, somebody took the time out to slam John Byrne. :D

Hey, Byrne-slamming is always good. He's such a -- whoops, that's not what you were talking about, was it?

It's interesting that part of the Superman revamp in 1986 was to make him left of centre; Byrne (that sonofa, whoops, sorry) actually mentioned in an interview in the British press that Superman would now be the equivalent to what was then called the Liberal-SDP Party over here, now just the Lib-Dems in the vernacular. (Personally, I welcomed this, because my own political views are leftish; I don't mean to start a debate here, because I'm sure that there are people here with differing views. I'm just saying, is all.) It's interesting, though, because he started off pretty unambiguously as a New Dealer, but seemed to gravitate to the right as time went on. By bringing him back to the left, I feel that DC wanted to accentuate the caring side of his nature, but maybe that's just me.

Anyway, the comments brought about by the Superman Returns film are obviously very knee-jerk stuff. I haven't seen the film yet (it's still one week from release over here), but it's fairly obvious to me that it does not portray Superman as gay, Lois as a slut or anything like that. I certainly don't mind the American Way thing, because I'm not American and want him to be my hero too. As you say, Julian, this is entertainment and it is not meant to be your bible; you don't have to agree with all of it, and the one point it is trying to make is that the good guys win in the end. If you disagree with that, well, where does that put you?

Some people simply have nothing going on in their lives so they have to worry about everyone's private lives and personal opinions (countless times more important to them than facts), rather than trying to make their own lives more meaningful, but I suppose that would be much harder to do than to go on TV shows, type in Internet blogs and even write books and make complete fools of themselves.

Some people find political angles for every little thing you can think of and some you couldn't, these people are idiotic and annoying.

That goes for both sides. I am not picking on just one.




Gay people liking something doesn't make it gay. You have to be incredibly homophobic to even think that way. To quote Shakespeare  "doth protest too much, methinks"

Here is a good chance to plug the supermanica :)
http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Superman#The_Women_of_the_Chronicles



That was more of a War Years phase, which was phased out as Superman become a hero to the whole universe starting with the Sliver Age. The 1960's folks.



Of course she is not, but any depiction of a strong, smart woman scares of holy you know what out of some people.



Well, at least we can all agree on some universal truths ;)

IIRC, the first time Superman ever directly said he was fighting for the American Way was in the original movie.  I suspect that was largely so Lois could quip about him fighting every elected official.

Sorry, as a complete aside here, Mxy, what does IIRC mean? I'm a bit hit-and-miss about all these acronyms.

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

"truth, justice, and the American way" was such a important part of the introduction segment of the Superman TV series, and the series ran in syndication for so many years that it seems kind of natural that people would notice it whether they agree with it today or not...

This is ultimately why it's not wise to read the perspective of political blogs on pop culture events like movies: everything is viewed through a lens, and so consequently people see things that just aren't there.

And the whole harping on the "Superman is gay" topic brings to mind the first characteristic of the fanatic: the inability to change the subject.



I wonder: do comics and superheroes have an unusually strong gay audience? I would think they would, especially among the segment of gays into pop culture and camp. Superhero comics have many similarities to the over the top theatrics of Broadway musicals.



That was indeed a very powerful moment - it was right then that people stopped laughing, stopped looking at the picture as camp, and took it seriously, as many people, notably Nightwing, have pointed out.

It was meant to show Superman as an idealistic person with a great deal of faith in others - Chris Reeves's Superman was more bright-eyed than the others in many ways.

However, I can understand why the film-makers of SUPERMAN RETURNS left that part out: Superman's heroism and mission ought to be broadly defined so that EVERYONE can see heroism in him, and the definition of the phrase "American Way" has been narrowed in recent times. The decision to leave it off is many things, but it isn't "gutless." And it was one line by Frank Langella, that I can't help but feel this is being blown out of proportion.  



If Byrne gave this statement, he went back on it. Reimagining Terra-Man as an eco-terrorist? Hey, I've got a great idea: why don't we create MORE villains based on phobias of the extreme right? Here's one: the Unionist. He's five men, that merge Voltron-style, to form a giant monster!

Am I the only one to find it more than a little loopy to have environmentalists as supervillains? Surely there are more dastardly and charismatic groups than harmless college girls that don't shave their pits. Only in the fevered brains of Kesel and Byrne would environmentalists pick up machine guns instead of bongs.



Well, yeah, but what's strange is that this is happening to SUPERMAN. Has there become such an anxiety about the mass media that even something that should be below the radar like SUPERMAN RETURNS now suddenly acquires suspicion and scrutiny? I mean, this isn't exactly SYRIANA here. This is an escapist adventure movie, which works precisely because it is detached from contemporary current events in a way more than any other recent movie than maybe SHREK II.

Nope, you certainly aren't. I always thought there should be a Superman story in which he was taking a similar stand, even to the point of breaking the law so that a bit of rainforest would remain untouched or something. You're right, Superman being a leftwinger didn't last very long, but then, these were the Reagan/Bush sr. years. We still had the Berlin Wall back then! Wow, takes you back.

That does seem to be the way things are. There's probably a whole bunch of chaps going through the text of The Very Hungry Caterpillar in search of subversion. We seem to have been cursed to live in interesting times.

Well politically I'm slightly to the right of Atilla the Hun and I loved the movie.

Although, I admit I have no idea how I'm going to explain to my kids how Jason is Superman's son.  But it'll be a few years before they can see this film, anyway.  (That beating Supes gets is pretty rough.  Considering my 3-year-old is still upset that the faceless, cartoon Cingular mascot got his head pulled off in a recent commercial, I don't think he's ready to see Superman stabbed in the back and beaten to a pulp).

Like Nightwing, I'm very to the right and I loved the movie, but then I don't examine everyhing with a political microscope.
 I'd rather keep most of my comic heroes apolitical thanks. Marv Wolfman's old teen Titans story " A pretty girl is like a Mallidi" pissed me off on so many levels it pretty much killed the titans form me.

Addressing various points:

1. Superman and gays: Well, this leftist gay guy likes Superman (and comics), but agree with the previous remarks above re: Superman's "supposed" non-heterosexuality.

Re: do gay guys like comics/superheroes: Of course! Here's a fair-sized site dedicated to gays and lesbians in comics (as characters/writers/artists/etc.):

http://www.gayleague.com

2. "American Way": I assumed it was dropped out of marketing reasons vs. characterization-related reasons, since the film will be playing overseas, and all.

IIRC, the Flesicher cartoons just used "truth and justice"; "the American Way" was added with the 50's TV show.

3. "Lois is a slut": I admit I don't much like the idea of Superman having a kid with Lois without being married to her (or even knowing about it until film's end), but more out of my assumption that any kid they'd have together would be with the two as life partners/married, not with the kid growing up not knowing who his real dad is and being raised by Cyclops. ;-)  That, and I guess the implication that someone like Superman (or Lois) were that inattentive toward something like birth control usage I have a hard time buying (unless Clark wasn't paying much attention during sex ed lessons at Smallville High or something...).

As for the Byrne bashing, guess there's something for both sides of the political aisle to agree on. ;-)

Exactly, not only did the TV series introduce this but actually had the flag waving behind him...and it was syndicated for two decades...I don't wonder why people think this is "the" quote anymore than people can sing the theme song to "Gilligan's Island"...

Yeah. that's another thing: of all the good looking-but-in-an-inoffensive-way leading men in Hollywood, why did they have to pick the guy that played Cyclops in the X-Men movie? I mean, the last X-Picture came out a FEW MONTHS ago, this is fresh in our minds, here.

Lois married to Cyclops? She always struck me as being more a "Dr. Strange" kinda girl.

This reminds me of all those sixties Leo Dorfman/Schaffenberger Lois Lane stories where she's always getting married to someone else or another, whether it be Batman, or Lex Luthor, or a space ameoba.

I can just imagine the cover now: Superman is creeping outside the window of the Lois Lane/Cyclops residence, with a shocked expression and thought bubble over his head

"GREAT KRYPTON! I've returned from SPACE after FIVE YEARS to find Lois Lane is married to CYCLOPS!!!"

Story box: A GREAT IMAGINARY STORY: "LOIS LANE, MS. MUTANT MARVEL!"

Inside, you'd have Cyclops with his visor blasting a cooking board with onions that Lois Lane is chopping, apron and all.

"Here, HONEY! My ruby quartz beam should make dicing a SNAP!"

And beside them, there's a little kid with the distinctive one-eyed visor...

Long time Superman fans know that Lois Lane has had a few boyfriends in the comics besides Superman, in fact that will be the next section I will add to her entry.

Disturbingly, she even went on a date with Robin.

I thought that was simply to yank Superman and Batman's chains on that cruise ship.  That wasn't more than one panel at the very end of a story, or did they have a more detailed encounter than that?

Ok, folks here you go!

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Lois_Lane#The_Men_of_the_Chronicles

As far as Lois wandering off with Robin in WF, I have a strong memory of her in a pill box hat saying something like "I found this wonderful little chap"...wonder where I read that, a reprint in an 80 Page Giant?

Decades is pushing it. A decade, maybe, but not more than one. There was that whole Superman Red/Superman Blue thing, but he still was predominantly the Big Blue Boy Scout. I point to The Nail miniseries and other (mostly JLA) books that still portray Clark as being the ultimate US hero. It's only been very recent that writers have been portraying a person raised since birth as a human as a "lonely alien".

Society recently has embraced the anti-hero and the writers are trying to move Supes in that direction - which is not consistent with his character over the past 60 years. Batman always was an anti-hero; he was that way from creation although watered down during the Golden and Silver ages. Superman was never an anti-hero; he was never meant to be. Someone with as much power as Kal-el has could easily rule the world and there have been numerous Elseworlds books written about that very thing. Ultimately, it is the Kents; those mid-west farmers, salt of the earth types, who have made Superman into the hero he is. People in that part of the country (a.k.a. Red States) are patriotic, and it's natural that Clark would be the same way. If recent writers are trying to change that, then they aren't being true to the character's origins.



Just last night I got home and read Superman/Batman #6 and in it Superman said...







"Throught it all, Luthor's influence...his money...would allow him to trample the law and escape unscathed.

Even Bruce, whose wealth exceeds Luthor's couldn't work the system with such reckless disregard.

But...the most painful victory he would ever take from me...

...was his election to the office of the President.

The land I love.

If I am guilty of one mistake, it was putting my faith in the American public not to vote for him.

The world will never know how I struggled with the decision to stay out of the electoral process.

Should I have gone on television and told the voters not to elect this man?

If I use my influence...my character and my reputation... to tell people how to vote, what does that make me?

I choose to fight for Truth, Justice and The American Way.

And for all its flaws, American democracy does work. That's not just something I learned growing up on a farm in Kansas.

Thats been my life."





This comic was put out no more than a year ago.

Well - this is a great thread...

a couple of points...

1. Lois and Superman's choice/non choice of birth control.

This one is steeped a little in the Superman 2 scene where Lois is putting on something comfortable.  What gets missed a bit is that Superman and Lois are 2 different species.  This might be a bit of a stretch of logic - but at that time, I have to give Supes the idea that there was little change of their genetics co-mingling into conception.  Lara was a recording and IIRC she just said he'd lose his powers.  Also - let us not forget that Superman at this point was probably likely quite a bit less experienced than Lois - so there's a lot of potential of just not really realizing what's going on.  Also, considering how vunerable he was at that point - practically anything could have gone wrong here.  I'll leave it to your imagination how this works out.

2. The American Way.  Boy, what a hot topic this was on the other boards.  I've always understood the concept to be Liberty, Happiness, Peace and Prosperity.  I was disappointed that Perry's line was edited.  It was, unforntuately a valid point.  The American Way is a rather perverted term outside our borders, let alone for many Americans.  But that poison started in 1963 and has been smoldering since.  (It probably started earlier, but I note a heavy decline in patriotism since JFK's assassination.)

Anyway, just some points.

Oh boy, do I ever NOT want to have this conversation, but...

Dr. Ruth Westheimer once wrote in one of her books that if she had Three Wishes, one of them would be for a "perfect" means of birth control, because so far, there isn't one. If you're uncomfortable with the idea of Superman and Lois being so thoughtless as not being on the pill or using a prophylactic, take heart in the observation that they might have been but none of these are ever 100%.

This reminds me of a snippet of dialogue from Alan Moore's SUPREME:

SUPREME: "I just thought that because of...y'know...who I am, we could never really be together."
DIANA DANE: "Uh, does that mean you're anatomically abnormal in some way?"

Incidentally, I remember reading in the STAR TREK writers guide that one aspect of the show, that obviously wasn't going to be touched upon, but the writers were to keep in the back of their minds, was the very controversial idea that birth control in the Starfleet on long term missions was mandatory for single women. After all, Man + Woman + Time = Babies.

Some Ayn Rand types have been dismissive of TREK as "liberal pap" because its "utopia" has no money and no religion. The cynic in me wonders if that isn't what makes STAR TREK a utopia in the first place!



I can sort of understand why the writers left that line out. Superman, after all, is a character that is so interesting, because through the ages, he's kept up with the times.

Superman iis always set in "modern day." Compare that to someone like Doc Savage or the Shadow, for whom being in non-period pieces is absolutely unthinkable. The line "...and the American Way" is very much a throwback to the 1950s, an age when we liked our heroes like we liked our steaks: beefy, and All-American. Hey, isn't this site called "Superman Through the Ages," after all?

The only reason that line worked in the 1970s was because it characterized Chris Reeves's character as being a bright-eyed type. That worked BECAUSE it was such a pleasantly idealistic sentiment that was a little out of place. As great a moment as it was, it only worked because Lois snickered at him.

I have to agree with MatterEaterLad too, because it is true: the line is so iconic that you really feel the absence of it.

One of the more amusing expressions of the "keeping things period" phenom for some characters was the old Rankin-Bass DEFENDERS OF THE EARTH cartoon, which was set in "modern day" (meaning the 1980s) and which featured the grown-up SONS of both the Phantom and Mandrake the Magician...but at the same time, had the "original" Flash Gordon! The logic was, hey, Flash Gordon's adventures were set in the future, after all.