Superman Through the Ages! Forum

The Superman Family! => Batman => Topic started by: Super Monkey on August 25, 2006, 12:14:24 PM



Title: Grant Morrison on Batman
Post by: Super Monkey on August 25, 2006, 12:14:24 PM
NRAMA: You said some interesting things at San Deigo this year, and I was hoping you could touch upon them again here - the gritty, grim Batman worked for a time, but now…there needs to be a change. What's at the root of the change? Is it the shift in the DCU, a change in the larger zeitgeist of the culture?

GM: Personally, I wanted to see a psychologically 'healthier' Batman - the last couple of decades have seen the character in the comics deconstructed almost to the point of no return and the Bat-books were heavily-laden with an extended family of characters, many of whom existed only to stand in for some part of Batman's personality that had been lost or suppressed over the last twenty years. It seemed like the right moment to step in and start gluing him back together again.


Read the full interview here: http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Batman/Morrison/Morrison_Batman.html


Title: Re: Grant Morrison on Batman
Post by: JulianPerez on August 25, 2006, 01:21:30 PM
Quote from: "Grant Morrison"
I'm trying to put all kinds of things back into Bat-continuity in a way that makes sense, including Bat-Mite and Ace, the Bat-Hound.


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

(slams fist on the ground) DAAAMN YOU! DAAAAMN YOU ALL TO HELLLL!

I'm in favor of a swashbuckling, pulp Batman as much as anybody else, but BAT-MITE? There's such a thing as a pendulum swinging too far in the other direction. Batman's editorial vision has been off for the past few years, true, but let's not make the mistake of getting sentimental about utterly unworthy things.

Bat-Mite has nothing to do with what Batman's stories are supposed to be about, and is an unwelcome intrusion on the pulp feel of Batman's stories. He's an inferior version of, and derivative of, other, better characters (Qwisp the Sea Sprite, Mr. Mxyzptlk).

Ace the Bat-Hound, on the other hand, might be interesting. Hero dogs are a big part of adventure fiction, if they play him more like White Fang than Wonder Dog.

Other than that, Morrison's approach seems solid. I love the Neal Adams references, and it's very classy of him to give props to O'Neil (though none for Stainless Steve? Way to diss by omission, Granty). Batman's stories being described as "vaguely James Bond-ish" shows that Morrison has a real grip and feel for Batman's world. And it was very sharp of Grant to pick up on the Mike Barr thread, and I'm legitimately curious to see what develops.


Title: Re: Grant Morrison on Batman
Post by: Super Monkey on August 25, 2006, 02:31:36 PM
But, this will be his version of Bat-Mite so who knows what it will be like.


Title: Re: Grant Morrison on Batman
Post by: Uncle Mxy on August 25, 2006, 04:44:22 PM
For the best Ace, watch the Krypto cartoon.  
Ace is awesome.


Title: Re: Grant Morrison on Batman
Post by: MatterEaterLad on August 25, 2006, 04:58:29 PM
There was a Silver Age comic where Bat Mite and Myx get into a war of magic that I always wanted to read, I'd give a new take on the Mite a chance, anyways... 8)


Title: Re: Grant Morrison on Batman
Post by: JulianPerez on August 25, 2006, 07:07:58 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
But, this will be his version of Bat-Mite so who knows what it will be like.


Hmmm, maybe that's true. If you asked me a few months ago about the Prankster, I would have written him off in the same vein as Bat-Mite: an unoriginal "Superman" version of the enemies of other characters; the only person that ever got interesting use out of the Prankster was Marty Pasko, and that was only because Pasko paired him up with other villains.

That was before Kurt Busiek and Geoff Johns did their recent JLA arc that featured the Prankster in such true to life and sharp form. My favorite part of the whole thing was how the Prankster defeated Hal Jordan: covered him in itching powder, so he couldn't concentrate to use his ring!


Title: Re: Grant Morrison on Batman
Post by: Michel Weisnor on August 26, 2006, 05:01:01 PM
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
But, this will be his version of Bat-Mite so who knows what it will be like.


Knowing Grant Morrison, Bat-Mite will be a chain smoking; hard loving ne'er-do-well, wearing hip huggers with an uncanny resemblance to Johnny Puleo.

I love the old Bat-Mite stories I've read so I'll leave it at that...

Go Bat-Mat!   :wink:


Title: Re: Grant Morrison on Batman
Post by: nightwing on August 26, 2006, 09:18:14 PM
Don't forget "Ace" appeared on Batman Beyond as the elderly Bruce Wayne's rather cantankerous guard dog.  So there's always ways to make formerly goofy concepts work.

I'm extremely encouraged by everything Morrison's said about Batman and hope he can salvage what the disciples of Miller have made him into...which, as Morrison says, is less, not more than what he can be and has been.  I also liked his dig at Miller over the ridiculous "Batman vs Al Quaeda" comic in the works.  (Suggesting that a guy with the Miller Batman's psychological make-up would be a real-life candidate for the Taliban). Basically he told Miller to put on fatigues and join the Army if he wants to make a real difference.  Batman is a character in a comic book.

You go, Grant!


Title: Re: Grant Morrison on Batman
Post by: Permanus on August 27, 2006, 02:13:13 AM
Wow, he really plowed into Miller and a lot of the other dumb stuff DC has done to Batman in the past. I'm surprised that he's allowed to do that, actually; I'd have thought DC would have some sort of policy that if you're working for them, you can't overtly criticise anything they do.


Title: Re: Grant Morrison on Batman
Post by: Uncle Mxy on August 27, 2006, 11:09:29 AM
Commandment #1:  Thou shalt not criticize Dan Didio, for he is the word and the way -- the was, the is, the yet-to-be.  As it has ever been, so shall it ever be, until UberGod (secret identity: Richard Parsons) says otherwise.

If you don't like someone's work, and you both get your paycheck from the same place, you don't want to find out through the press.  You at least have the discussion inhouse and make some attempt to inform and hear what the other party has to say.  I suspect that through means that involves dadaistic chaos magic, Xorn, and an occasional bitchslapping, he probably knows this.  "I'm the goddamn Frank Miller" was probably sick of hearing what Morrison has to say by the time it hit Newsarama.  

As for the other stuff...

- Bat-Mite can work, as long as Batman's reaction to magic is considerably different than Superman's (while still being interesting).  I think of DCAU and "The Demon Within" as sort of an example -- get through it, then treat the subject like a bad hangover.  "Don't ask."

- Ace should be Alfred's pet more than Bruce's, at least initially.  Think Magnum P.I. and Higgins' "lads".  Make it be a 'humanity' challenge for Bruce to get the dog to like him.  

- I can't see Batman going in for cheap sex with dim socialites.  You want something that doesn't fit with a good Batman, Julian?  There ya go!

- Talia didn't really have that kid with Batman.  It was with some guy named McGuinness...


Title: Re: Grant Morrison on Batman
Post by: Permanus on August 27, 2006, 04:26:56 PM
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
- Ace should be Alfred's pet more than Bruce's, at least initially.  Think Magnum P.I. and Higgins' "lads".  Make it be a 'humanity' challenge for Bruce to get the dog to like him.  

I love this so much that I want you to be the next Batman writer, Mxy.


Title: Re: Grant Morrison on Batman
Post by: JulianPerez on August 27, 2006, 07:43:31 PM
Quote from: "nightwing"
Don't forget "Ace" appeared on Batman Beyond as the elderly Bruce Wayne's rather cantankerous guard dog. So there's always ways to make formerly goofy concepts work.


Yeah, that was pretty funny stuff, with the dog. The dog can WORK; just give a dog a personality. Alan Moore did the best hero dog in SUPREME, by recognizing that dogs have all sorts of extremely heroic qualities: single-minded heroism, devotion, and so on.

If that Scots git, Morrison, can make Bat-Mite work, more power to him, though I'll believe it when I see it.

As for Frank Miller's Bat-Stuff...he didn't work on Batman long enough to really "jump the shark" the way he eventually did on DAREDEVIL, with the introduction of the Ninja-centered plots, and Daredevil's blind master that tells him a radar sense is for wusses.

For the longest time, I didn't like DARK KNIGHT RETURNS because Batman was so...well...DERANGED: experiencing Rambo-style flashbacks while machine-gunning children and delivering Schwartzenegger-style monosyllibisms ("I believe you" while making a street punk look like swiss cheese with a BFG). I hated the excessive brutality, and the way Batman was presented as being someone whose primary motivation is psychological compulsion and vengeance instead of a legitimate instinct to heroism and the desire to protect the weak.

"This isn't smart comics," I said to myself, oh-so-iconoclastically, "this is one big Sylvester Stallione flick, crossed with an archconservative's revenge wet dream." Hell, they even give what's coming to an obvious doppleganger of that wicked Jewess, Dr. Ruth - if this book was made today, I'm POSITIVE it would involve Batman punching in the face Bill, Hillary, and Socks the Cat in that order. I have no idea where some people say Miller is a liberal; then again, maybe Miller intentionally designed DKR so it would piss off everyone of every political orientation.

It didn't help that Miller's work was praised as being a return to the "pulp roots of the character," a statement only true if Adams, Englehart, and O'Neil are ignored.

But utimately, I lightened up on DKR and actually started to like it because, while YES, Batman doesn't really use his detective skills, and YES, Batman is presented as being rather psychotic, the thing is, that's not supposed to be "our" Batman. It's an older, nuttier Batman who has gone slightly bonkers. It's easier to appreciate if you divorce this from "our" Batman.

That's why people not "getting" DKR is so frustrating; it's not SUPPOSED to be how Batman should be written; that's the whole point. It ISN'T Batman, and can't be pointed to as his correct characterization.

I haven't read Miller's recent stuff, but from what I hear, his creative instincts have pretty much died. Then again, you never know; I said the same thing about Englehart circa MILLENNIUM and NEW GUARDIANS, but he's rebounded since with AVENGERS: CELESTIAL QUEST, STRANGERS, and NIGHTMAN.

Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Commandment #1: Thou shalt not criticize Dan Didio, for he is the word and the way -- the was, the is, the yet-to-be. As it has ever been, so shall it ever be, until UberGod (secret identity: Richard Parsons) says otherwise.


Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
If you don't like someone's work, and you both get your paycheck from the same place, you don't want to find out through the press.


Isn't there supposed to be a rule of professional behavior that you're not supposed to be critical of other people's work? This makes passive-aggressiveness rise to an all-time high.

This can actually be made into a game: find the most dodgy answer in an interview

    INTERVIEWER: What do you think of Todd MacFarlane's writing?
    PROFESSIONAL: Todd MacFarlane is a very gifted artist.[/list]


    Title: Re: Grant Morrison on Batman
    Post by: JulianPerez on August 28, 2006, 09:24:18 AM
    I also love how Grant Morrison gave Batman such a wonderful sense of humor in his JUSTICE LEAGUE stuff. Batman's seriousness about crimefighting was a neverending reservoir of snappy, humorous dialogue. Like:

      WONDER WOMAN: Why would anyone need to know how long they can hold their breath?
      BATMAN: Three minutes, fifteen seconds.
      BATMAN: You'd be surprised why...[/list]

      How is it that Batman could be so funny, and Plastic Man so unfunny?


      Title: Re: Grant Morrison on Batman
      Post by: Gangbuster on August 28, 2006, 03:12:30 PM
      I think I wrote a Supermanica entry on Bat-Mite at one
      point...

      Edit: Aha, I did!

      http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Bat-Mite


      Title: Re: Grant Morrison on Batman
      Post by: dmat on August 29, 2006, 08:38:58 PM
      Maybe Bruce and Talia's son is the new Bat-Mite?  :shock: