Superman Through the Ages! Forum

I have no idea whether or not this has ever been mentioned anywhere, but I was very surprised to learn that there exists a novel of Infinite Crisis, written by Greg Cox.  A friend of mine just got ahold of an advance review copy and is in the midst of reading it.  He says that it's the same story as the comic - mostly Superman, Batman, and Wonderwoman with the E-2 Supes and Earth-Prime Superboy - but he thinks the author added his own take to the characters and events.

I still wonder if Elliot Maggin is getting royalties for the use of Superboy Prime, or if the reason DC radically changed the character was to side-step the issue.

The lone review at Amazon claims that the book is an "action-packed science fiction thriller that is a direct tie-in to the movie."  :shock:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0441014445/theamalgamatronA/

:s:

WOW there's gonna be a movie, too???

As if the immortal Crisis on Infinite Earths movie really needed a sequel. Cor, those Amazon people are lazy.

As a kid, a friend of mine told me that my favourite comic book Teen Titans was being made into a movie.  Iwas very excited until I saw the commercial for Clash of the Titans (then I was excited that my favourite Greek myths were being made into a movie).

I can see an INFINITE CRISIS movie.

Joaquin Pheonix would make a wonderful Alex Luthor. I can imagine him, with his usual hurt eyes, when asked to explain himself, say, "I'm just like my father: the only hero on a world full of villains."

I struggle to think who would make a good Power Girl, but jeez, it ain't like Hollywood is exactly suffering from a blonde shortage.

I can't think of a way that Wonder Woman's invisible jet wouldn't look terrible in CGI - what, they put a PREDATOR-style CGI effect, shake hands, and call it a night?

And is it just me, or does every single live action version of the Flash look super gay?

One interesting theme about INFINITE CRISIS that I did like was the idea that you can behave badly and it is still possible to redeem yourself if you choose to behave heroically; a very Englehart or Busiek-esque theme. If you think about it, the villains of the story insist that the DC characters are broken goods: Superboy-Prime when confronted by Hal Jordan says "You're the worst of them all." Even Conner himself finally makes the choice towards heroism, despite his Luthor heritage.

There was a Busiek introduction to a book once, where King Kurt said something to the effect, when confronted with heroes behaving badly like Hal's DUI: "They're heroes, people. Don't worry, they can bounce back."

And for the most part, the DC Trifecta of Superman Batman and Wonder Woman did just that in the series.

An "Infinite Crisis" movie? Geez, as if the movies weren't cruddy enough lately as it is... :-)

>>
And is it just me, or does every single live action version of the Flash look super gay?

Cool! We need more gay super-characters...  Pied Piper, Northstar, and Maggie Sawyer alone aren't cutting it. Unless, of course, you meant "gay" as a dubious synonym for "bad"... :-p

No, I meant "gay" as a synonym for "flaming homosexual."

The only way live action Flash could have looked gayer if his costume was pink, not red.

And there could stand to be a few more gays in comics...as long as they're not written by Steve Englehart in NEW GUARDIANS. My Swan, "Estrano" was an embarassing stereotype to all involved. Did you know "Estrano" is Spanish for "Queer?" And then there was the way he insisted on being called "Auntie."

NEW GUARDIANS was the closest Englehart ever came to compromising his own great legacy.

Steve's collective apology to the gay community was in the pages of STRANGERS...if you'd like to read about an interesting gay superhero story, check out that one. It was done with dignity and intelligence, everything NEW GUARDIANS didn't have. There was one subplot about his boyfriend dying of AIDS that was especially tragic.

I think the John Wesley Shippe Flash costume from the short-lived 1990-91 TV series is less "homo-erotic" than the needlessly emphasized Batman costume(s) from Batman Forever and Batman & Robin.

You guys can't haave it both ways. If it's okay to Busiek and Johns to corrupt characters just to redeem then after in a herioc story, it should be okay to Bryne to. Infinite Crisis is not different than the Phanton Zone criminals execution story and later Exile in Space. Morrison and Waid stories are closer to Maggin in that aspect because their Superman would never fail. Ingnoring thar, it's not a discussion based on fact, but on favorite writers.

Busiek had nothing to do with IC, that POS was all Johns fault, and yes he is just as bad as Bryne. Except that Johns just has really bad taste and no talent but otherwise seems like a nice guy while Byrne really is a supreme (BEEP) and he has no talent and the worse taste ever in all things in life.

Busiek took Johns' bloody remains and gave it dignity and respect.
Superman comics are now readable, that hasn't happen in about 20 years! Superman actually acts like Superman now, that hasn't happen in about 20 years! At least not in the Superman books.

oh, IMHO ;)

Those super pets from the Silver Age, they have no dang opinions... 8)

Did Superman kill people in IC, and I just forgot to pick up that issue? I'm pretty sure he didn't.

Though I'm absolutely sure that Superman was tempted to. When Batman said "The last time you ever inspired anybody, Superman, was when you were dead," if it was me, I would have given 'ol Bat-Dick a sock to the jaw that sends him halfway to Alpha Centauri.

"Bet you're 'inspiring' a lot of people now, huh?"

The two situations are not remotely compatible.

One has a Superman that behaved extremely out of character in an overkill situation concocted by the writer to deliberately transfer an unsavory element to a heroic character for shock value.

As others have pointed out, the situation where Superman killed in the Pocket Universe, is a situation that only exists because the writer created it. However, Johns did not create the situation Superman faced in INFINITE CRISIS; other writers did. He did solve it, though and got the character through it. Johns did not create Bat-Dick; he got rid of Bat-Dick. He did not create Wonder Woman, Klingon; but you'll better believe he got her through that. The characters have been restored to their correct characterizations after gradual drift as a direct result of the events of INFINITE CRISIS.

The thing a lot of people miss about the Earth-2 Superman's actions, is that he was misguided in the series NOT because he was old-fashoined and irrelevant (the fact that he was such a part of the climax of the book suggests otherwise); he was misguided in the series because he does not believe it is possible for a character to continue to be a hero after missteps.

I for one, did not enjoy EMERALD TWILIGHT. In fact, if I ever get my hands on real power, you'd better believe everyone involved is going to a labor camp. Still, I don't believe Hal is now permanently a villain and that he can't be accepted as a heroic character again.



By the way...what Geoff Johns book have you ever read, ever?

Specific examples, please. Vague summaries on another website do not count. By the way, I found it ironic as hell that the website that brought us our INFINITE CRISIS news was never questioned, but when they started dissing SUPERMAN RETURNS, suddenly everything they said became suspect.

I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, I'm just saying if you haven't read anything, you're not entitled to one at all.

When I come down on Gerry Conway, that's because I'm up to my armpits in Conway-smeared comics; from his cliche-ridden ARAK, SON OF THUNDER to his CRAPTACULAR SPIDER-MAN (it's not called that, but it should be).

I swear, Conway books are like cockroaches, they BREED. When somebody wants to sell me their comics, the conversation goes a little like this:

"Come on over, Julian. I have some great books by great writers. I have some of the Don MacGregor KILLRAVEN, the Doug Moench MASTER OF KUNG FU...and some other very interesting comics."

" 'Some other very interesting comics?' Wait...you don't mean you have some Gerry Conway books, don't you?"

"Kkkkkkt! Whoa, can't hear you, the connection went bad there for a second..."

( With all due apologies to X-Entertainment.  :D )

I really enjoy Johns' ideas and plots until he decides to add over excessive violence. Almost every storyline he's written relies at some point on blood red pages. That said, I should have known better about IC.

BTW, after 52* he's preparing for a Justice League/Justice Society crossover followed by another mega event. Again, Power Girl is a major player.

Someone better clear out a refrigerator then :?




Ok...

You know, Johns claims that he is a big fan of the Silver Age, but all he ever does it take some odd character from the 60's and write them completely out of character the kills them or makes them into a killer.

Earth-2 Superman and Lois Lane were created as tributes to the original Golden Age versions. They were two of the characters from the greatest comic book universe ever created: The Pre-Crisis DC Universe. The big bad wolfman, saved them for a reason, just in case anyone wanted to bring them back. Johns did.. just to kill them off!

Superboy-Prime was created a tribute to the Silver Age Superboy and was one of the final characters created by Elliot S! Maggin. The wolfman saved him, just in case someone wanted to use him again, and boy did Johns ever use him, by writing him completely out of character and making him into a gore crazed serial killer!!!

Finally, there was A Luthor of Earth-3, who's father was a Superhero and Mother was Lois Lane, on Earth-3 ALL Luthors were pure good and all Earth-2 hero counterparts were evil, that's Earth-3 in a nutshell. Johns, I guess, never read a Earth-3 story in his life, and figured, hey he is a Luthor so I guess he must be a bad guy, and missed the whole point of the character and wrote him completely out of character and of course got him killed!!!

You know for a guy who is such a big pre-crisis fan he sure went out of his way to kill off all the remaining pre-crisis characters, well expect for the one he turn into a gore-craze killer. Speaking of which, Johns answer for why DC has sucked for the past 20 years was because they sucked on Purpose!!! You see it was all part of the big plan, you see Superboy-Prime was punching some invisible wall, that explains it. That has to be up there with the worst ideas ever in the history of comics.

I continue to believe that all residents of the paradise dimension went insane because they had only post-Crisis comics to read...

Gerry no write ARAK.  Roy write ARAK.

kdb

Is it me or was IC a rehash of Zero Hour?

The one I'm thinking of is ARAK, SON OF THUNDER #7, which was written by Conway over a Thomas plot. Arak said - with a totally straight face here - "By Thunder, I'll ne'er understand you civilized men."

Arak was this way under Thomas, too, but under Thomas at least there was a personality about him that kept him from being a Sword & Sorcery cliche.



My question wasn't really answered, was it?

Though I do agree with you that in the last two issues the series tried to do too much in too little, and the send-off for Earth-2 Superman could have been better.

Actually, he doesn't.  But close -- what he says is "By the dead gods, I'll never understand you 'civilized' people."

I'm not sure what's wrong with the line -- he's just interceded in an assault on a Jew, and is greeted with hatred and called a "barbarian."   He's noting the irony that supposedly-civilized men brand him as uncivilized, but act savage and uncouth themselves.  The line is apt to the moment and in keeping with Arak's character and the way Roy wrote him.

And seriously -- you describe being up to your armpits in Conway-written comics, but one of the two examples you pick is a series he dialogued seven pages of over someone else's plot, to buy some time on the schedule?  Pick any writer doing that, and you're unlikely to get their most sterling work.

If you want to rake Gerry over the coals, there's way better ways to do it, from his placing Chicago in Michigan to the creation of Vibe.

But then again, if you want to praise Gerry, all you really need is the sublime CINDER & ASHE...

kdb

Or the fabulous Action #521 starring Vixen!

I was just rereading CINDER & ASHE a week ago and was still really enjoying it. (Though the coloring seems a bit bland to me, and a disservice to Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez's fine artwork...)

I got to thinking how nice a sequel would be after all these years, but then I realized it would actually be a pretty bad idea... not only because a sequel story would have to be set in set in much different post-Katrina New Orleans (which would seem so weird), but because I realized Cinder is pushing fifty years of age by now!

And hey, is this becoming a really classic example of "thread drift" or what??? Parting shot: Gerry Conway was one of my LEAST favorite Superman writers, and one of my MOST favorite Batman writers... keep him with lower-powered heroes (exception to the rule: Firestorm) and he does just fine most of the time.