Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Administrator's note:  this thread has been split from this one (http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1184).

Just reading this saga again (actually looking for reference shots for a new painting I'm doing) and WOW... Swanderson at their peak never fails to amaze me

I feel exactly the same way about Swanderson. At their peak they are unequalled.

I actually used to prefer Swan inked by Tex Blaisdell, Bob Oksner or Frank Chiaramonte, but looking back at these comics, the Swanderson thing is really starting to grow on me. I used to dislike the little shading lines Anderson put everywhere because I felt they were a bit punctilious, but now I really like them.

Well - if you ask me (you didn't, but what the hell) - Bob Oksner was my favorite Swan inker.  His inking really brought out something in Swan's pencils, particularly in Superman.  It's like Supes is radiating with power.  That is easily my favorite Superman.

But - Swanderson is a good second place.

Oksner is my second-favourite inker for Swan, or maybe ties for second place with Klein.... But, then, Oksner's art is beautiful with or without Swan.

I dunno... Bob Oksner was an awesome inker, but in my opinion he "weighed" down Swan's pencils.  BUT I think in a lot of ways he was very similar to Swan.

Oksner's women were beautiful.  I had a crush on his Mary Batson/Mary Marvel.  She was cute beyond words (how pathetic is that?)... his Lois was awsome, too!

Swanderson still rules... Anderson's inks were clean and crisp over Swan's art... really smooth and the best inker for him

Of all the inkers who inked Swan on more than a handful of occasions, my favorites are, in order: Murphy Anderson; George Klein; Bob Oksner; Dan Adkins; Dave Hunt and Frank Chiaramonte.

I never really cared for Philip (Tex) Blaisdell's inks over anyone else's pencils, let alone Swan's, but at least he is a darn sight better than the appalling Vince Colletta, who, as well as being a dreadful inker often rubbed out details put in by the pencillers.

I am reminded of the letters of complaint sent into DC when Mike Royer replaced Colletta as Jack Kirby's inker.

Some readers were unhappy because Royer supposedly added details - of his own accord - that did not normally appear in Kirby's art (as inked by Colletta), but unknown to them, Colletta often erased background details, whereas Royer didn't!

Oh, I quite agree there; Colletta was awful. I suppose he only got jobs because he worked fast.

I can see your point, particularly in the "Who took the Super out of Superman" story.  I believe the imaginary Superman 2001 story to be a much better example of what I'm referring to.  To me, as gorgeous as Swan's art actually is (and it is) often many inkers would flatten his pencils apparently because they didn't know what to do with all the gray-scale inherent in Swan's pencils.  Bob and Murphy, both accomplished artists on their own, could do something about that that worked.  In Bob's case, I really loved those shadow lines he put on the abdomen and shin and wrist areas.  He also bulked out Superman upstairs with incredible detail.

I'm reminded of Norm Breyfogle's comments about inking being the fast food aspect of comic art.  Neither Murphy nor Oksner ever looked like that.  I believe their inked pages look like nicely finished pages of art - integrated so well with the pencils that you know you're not viewing an inked page of pencils, but a complete piece of art onto itself.

Well, that's enough zen this morning.

I'm gonna start a new thread on Swan's inkers... look for it somewhere in the forum!!

EDIT:  Great Rao did it for me.. this is the thread!

Yes, that is quite true. Hence the "Swanderson" name -- and India Ink, with a bit of a wink, used to use the name "Swoksner" if I recall correctly. (It's always worth checking out his old posts on these boards.)

And as you say, both Murphy and Bob were very experienced, great artists in their own right. I like their work very much on its own, particularly Bob's -- he was a top "good girl" artist and as davidelliott said, his women are beautiful; I'll have to add "gorgeous" to that.

Just want to chime in here and say that I agree Oksner's women were gorgeous.  Overall, I liked that he brought a sort of crispness, for lack of a better word, to Curt's pencils.  Anderson kept them soft (and tended to draw soft, rounded figures in his own pencils), but Oksner gave them a sharpness and clarity, if that makes any sense.  Sort of a Terry Austin-inks-over-Neal Adams-pencils kind of look.  I really liked it.

Here's my take... this was going to be the first post for this thread, but Rao incorporated the posts from the "Superman Breaks Loose" thread in "Site Updates" forum...

"I kind of got off topic in the "Superman Breaks Loose" thread in the site updates forum... so I'm starting this thread.

In no order of importance:

My favorite Swan inker is Murphy Anderson... wow, crisp and clear inks. IMHO Swan NEVER looked so good! The Swanderson Superman is the classic and timeless rendition.

Bob Oksner... I feel he weighed Swan down a bit, but still a really great artist himself. I mentioned in the other thread that his Mary Marvel was awesome, in particular. I had a bit of a crush on her back when I was a kid. His Lois Lane (by himself and over Swan) is definitive!

Dave Hunt was a lot like Murph... only his inks looked, well, cartoony for lack of a better word.

George Klein... EXCELLENT and his inks made Superman look realistic. It was a grown up look.

Worst? Vince Colletta. I never like his inks over ANYONE. Very heavy, like he had one pen or brush and used it on everything. "

So there you are!

some actual quotes about him:

Rodrigo Baeza: "Colletta was appreciated by publishers because of his ability to turn out professional-looking work on a short time. However, in his efforts to meet deadlines, Colletta would frequently erase details from the pencilled pages he received.... Magazines like the Jack Kirby Collector have shown examples of the pencilled pages Colletta received side-by-side with the finished, inked pages, and the differences can be very evident. The end result would still be printable, but costume details would disappear, patterns in buildings would be simplified, and sometimes background objects would be rubbed out".

Mark Evanier: "In 1970 when Steve Sherman and I met Steve Ditko, he asked us about the new Kirby books that were then about to debut at DC. When we told him Colletta was handling the inking, he winced and said that he would probably not look at the comics. Back when he was working for Marvel, Ditko said he'd pick up the latest issues in the office and always check the credits before taking the comics home. If he found Colletta's name — especially as Kirby's embellisher — he would make a point of putting the comic back, or even in a wastebasket. And he'd make sure Stan saw what he was doing and knew the reason why".

Len Wein, on what he enjoyed most about working on Luke Cage: "Getting to work with the wonderful George Tuska, before Vinnie Colletta got his hands on the pencils and ruined them".

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Colletta

Ive always liked George Klein's inks and Jack Abel's as well as Murph's.  I though Oskner's inks were too 'soft'.

Aggh Vinnie Colletta -he aint no Sinnot!

Put me down as a Klein man all the way.  Though Murph is a close second.

My disdain for Colletta is well documented in other threads here.  Apparently he figured the key was to aim for quantity over quality, to put it nicely.  Somewhat understandable, really, when you consider few old-timers could have imagined the average comic book would "live" longer than the one month it was released.  Why make "art" that'll be out of circulation in a few week's time?

The ultimately irony is that because of Vinnie's mindset, and because it was so in sync with that of the guys in the suits (who only want to get product out, not make it good), Colletta ended up as DC's Art Director for a while.  Talk about irony!  :shock:

He's always come in for huge criticism on these boards. I also remember he used to get a hammering on the old DC message boards. I only know what I see when I look at a page. Does he get any credit for actually being a comics professional? Did he ever erase those pencil lines in the same spirit as an editor might trim away words from a script? Could the man draw and was he just in a terrible hurry all the time? I'm having trouble believing a comics pro can be ALL bad.

Well, it seems not many liked his inking... it could just be that he worked fast and that means working cheap.

Nothing against him as a person... just his inking was, well, overpowering.

those quotes were from actual pros that worked with him, BTW.

So, yes he really was all bad, his only shining light was that he was the guy who gave Frank Miller his 1st break.

Now, some of you may hate him even more now, LOL!

Anderson and Klein were my favorites. Their styles complemented Swan very well. One of the best Silver Age inkers was Sid Greene, but I don't think he ever worked with Swan. He did wonders for Sekowsky and Dillin (two mediocre pencillers) on JLA, however.

I like Sid Greene as well.

When I think of him, I think of Green Lantern. (Not because of his name!)

Another vote for Sid Greene...

I think his inks overwhelmed the pencilers he worked over... Mike Sekowsky, Gil Kane, Dick Dillin all looked the same to me with Greene's inks, but it worked!

No offense to Bernard Sachs, as I think his inking was very classic, but Sekowsky's people looked elderly in JLA before Greene came along.

Believe it! Frankly, it's true for quite a few comics pros. It's not eally a business known for its exacting standards.

Sid Greene's inks defined the DC house look in the early 60s whether he was inking Infantino or penciling & inking his own pencils (Star Rovers), Another top DC inker was Joe Giella who's style was very similiar to Greene.

Murphy Anderson's finishes of his own pencils were always aces - Hawkman and his later but brief run on John Carter of Mars in the DC Tarzan and Weird Worlds books.  Gorgeous stuff.

(http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/89/murphy_anderson.gif)

Aldous writes (re: Vinnie Colletta):


Well, it's a matter of record that he was on the DC payroll for years.  So, seeing as how he inked comic art for money, yes I am willing to admit he was a "comics professional."  ;)


I think probably any inker, having studied another artist's pencils and tried to determine the best way to finish them, might erase a stroke here and there that just didn't "work."  But Colletta erased a LOT of pencil lines, removing details of anatomy, backgrounds, devices, etc in an obvious attempt to simply have less work to do.  Compare his issues of the early Fantastic Four to anything before or after on that book and you can see he took one of the most dynamically visual strips of all time and reduced it to crude, flat, simple scribbles on par with the average coloring book.

But to answer your question (I think) does that make him a hack?  Again I think it all depends on your mindset.  If you are in the camp that believes comics are kid's stuff, to be read and disposed of...if you are a production manager or publisher who needs material ready for the presses by deadline without fail...well then, Vinnie was the consummate professional.  He turned out probably more inked pages than any other artist of his, or any other day.  No doubt he could have done every page of every book published every month using his methods.  But by definition, comics "fans" tend to be people who appreciate the craft and care that goes into a book.  We make heroes of writers who use their imagination rather than relying on formula, and artists who take pains to make drawings that please, amaze or delight us.  Everyone appreciates getting something more for their money. 

Could the man draw?  To quote Mr Owl, the world may never know.  The pathetic part is, he never knew either.  There's a lesson in his career, in my opinion.  All of us sooner or later get to decide whether we're going to "phone in" a career and coast along taking the easy way out, or whether instead we're going to push ourselves to do something worthwhile and maybe even great.  Vinnie got what he wanted in the short run...money and a pat on the back from the suits.  But in the long run, he's earned himself a spot in the historical dustbin of forgettable also-rans who churned out unremarkable comics for decades on end, while his colleagues who put their hearts and souls into their work are still remembered and revered.

By way of example, Colletta used a very small number of stock faces in his work; no matter who the penciller, he would evidently just erase the face and put in one of his tried-and-true ones: guy, old guy, bad guy or pretty girl.