Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Superman Comic Books! => Superman! => Topic started by: Super Monkey on October 16, 2006, 10:53:46 PM



Title: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Superman!
Post by: Super Monkey on October 16, 2006, 10:53:46 PM
ACTION COMICS ANNUAL #10

Written by Geoff Johns and Richard Donner; Art by Art Adams, Joe Kubert, Pete Woods, Rags Morales, Kevin Maguire, Eric Wight and Tony Daniel ; Cover by Adam Kubert and Joe Kubert; Variant cover by Gary Frank

What do Art Adams, Joe Kubert, Pete Woods, Rags Morales, Kevin Maguire and Eric Wight have in common? No, they're not the latest rogues in Superman's gallery!
Rather, they're just some of the talents DC has assembled to deliver ACTION COMICS ANNUAL #10, the place to catch up on all that's new to Superman's world and to catch a glimpse of things to come in future issues of ACTION!

Superman  |  48pg.  |  Color  |  $3.99 US

On Sale January 31, 2007

(http://dccomics.com/media/covers/6607_400x600.jpg)


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Superman!
Post by: davidelliott on October 17, 2006, 11:37:03 AM
Thanks Monk...

Everything old is new again.  So much for the Byrne reboot!

COME ON DC BRING BACK THE MULTIVERSE!!!!


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Superman!
Post by: JulianPerez on October 17, 2006, 02:35:17 PM
I hesitate to say "I told you so," but since my posts are date-stamped and public record about how the combination of Busiek on SUPERMAN and Geoff Johns on ACTION COMICS, combined with the opportunity to get the character "working" again that is INFINITE CRISIS would yield a Superman worth reading again...

...well, we don't need to go into that.  ;D

The thing that I'd most love to focus on here is that ART ADAMS is going to be on a Superman book! What an incredible talent. Sure, everybody knows him from his incredible ability to draw monsters (and he can certainly do that), but Art Adams can also draw unbelievably complex costumes and good looking dames.

I've said for years though, that the only person that could really do a science fiction Krypton any justice would be artist Claudio Castellini. Ever since his Az-Tech Earth seen in THE MANY WORLDS OF TESLA STRONG.


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Super
Post by: Composite Superman on October 17, 2006, 03:08:23 PM
Nice to see the checkerboard again. Too bad it's not an 80-pager.  (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/jasons_smilie/glasses2.gif)


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Superman!
Post by: Permanus on October 18, 2006, 02:03:00 AM
The more things change...


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Superman!
Post by: Genis Vell on October 20, 2006, 03:22:06 PM
Various elements from the post-Crisis Superman stories are still here: the Kents alive, Luthor (former) tycoon, Lana Lang knows Superman's secret...

Actually, I don't really care for this: I love the Byrne run, and I know that I can re-read it whenever I want. Not really interested in continuity... Only in good Superman stories. Like those I'm reading now in SUPERMAN, for example.


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Superman!
Post by: TELLE on October 20, 2006, 08:03:29 PM
What happened to the Fortress of Solitude on that cover?  It looks like it collapsed like so many toothpicks!  Where is the big door and keyhole?


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Super
Post by: Super Monkey on October 20, 2006, 08:23:22 PM
What happened to the Fortress of Solitude on that cover?  It looks like it collapsed like so many toothpicks!  Where is the big door and keyhole?


In Post-IC, Superman's Fortress is very much like the Movie version, which in turn was like:
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/series/doc-savage/fortress-of-solitude.htm


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Super
Post by: Great Rao on October 20, 2006, 09:15:15 PM
What happened to the Fortress of Solitude on that cover?  It looks like it collapsed like so many toothpicks!  Where is the big door and keyhole?
Superman got his new Fortress in Action 840:

http://superman.nu/tales4/sunstone/


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Superman!
Post by: davidelliott on October 20, 2006, 10:13:16 PM
I read those first 4 pages..

Fortress in the Amazon???

Also, why do the comics need to adapt from movies, rather than the other way around?


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Superman!
Post by: MatterEaterLad on October 20, 2006, 10:59:45 PM
Also, why do the comics need to adapt from movies, rather than the other way around?

Well, movies do take the characters and lots of points from comics, but comics have decades of history, and movies need to get in two hours of a story and advance their plot points...

In this case, it is sad to see the Superman built fortress "museum" go, but selling comics these days is different...


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Super
Post by: Great Rao on October 21, 2006, 01:02:53 AM
Fortress in the Amazon???

There have probably been others, but here are the ones I can recall off the top of my head:

Golden-Age Superman: Secret Mountain Citadel;
Silver-& Bronze-Age Superman:  Fortress of Solitude constructed inside a mountain in the Arctic; Undersea Fortress;
Iron-Age Superman: Underground Fortress of Solitude in the Antarctic (mid Iron-Age); Fortress-in-a-hyper-tesseract-sphere (aka T.A.R.D.I.S. because it's bigger on the inside than it is on the outside - late Iron-Age; constructed by John Irons) in the mountains of the Amazon;
Post-IC Superman:  Fortress back in the Arctic, but now grown from a Kryptonian crystal.

I also seem to recall something about a Fortress in the center of the Sun, but that may have just been a Grant Morrison moment.

As far as what metal to name this new Age after, I've been giving the matter much thought.  I believe a pronouncement shall be coming soon.



Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Superman!
Post by: TELLE on October 21, 2006, 11:25:10 PM
Late-late Iron Age?

Post-Iron Age?

Clay Age?

Aluminum Age?

Silicon Age?

Temporary Suspension of Bad Taste on the Part of DC coinciding with the hiring of a few good writers Age?



Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Superman!
Post by: davidelliott on October 22, 2006, 12:43:53 AM
Copper Age... perhaps...

Well, I knew the Golden Age and Earth 2 Supermen had their Fortesses in the moutains near Metropolis.  It just seems that Superman, since then, would have his Fortress in the Artic.

Now, also, what I was getting at as well is the fact that when a movie or TV show comes out and features a comic book character, the movie/TV show gets incorporated into the comics.  Always happens...

Examples:

New Look Batman comes in '64 and the stories were more realistic.  Ywo years later, the Batman show premieres and the comics become campy and reflect the series.

The Flash gets a series and in the comics, the costume is updated to relect the TV show costume...

Movie Superman's Crystal Krypton gets adopted into the comics.

There's more, but I'll leave it at that.  Yeah, there's stuff from the comics that's incorporated (that's a given) but when the comic book canon is corrupted for years because of a movie, well I think that's wrong

But that's me


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Super
Post by: Super Monkey on October 23, 2006, 07:09:57 AM
Well, the idea of an Iron Age Superman is misleading since there never was a real Superman during the Iron Age.

The title should have said "Superman Returns!" but that was already taken.  ;)

Administrator's Note: Iron Age discussion has been split to to a new thread (http://superman.nu/smf/index.php?topic=3140.0).


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Superman!
Post by: Aldous on October 24, 2006, 03:04:41 PM


a return to greatness...

That's a direct quote from the splash page of "Superman Breaks Loose" (1971).


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Super
Post by: JulianPerez on October 24, 2006, 05:48:21 PM
Quote from: SuperMonkey
The title should have said "Superman Returns!" but that was already taken. 

Another good title for this thread might also be "the slowest horse just crossed the finish line."

Mike's right on this one: we've been in a new Superman Age for...what, three years, four?

Frankly, I find it hilarious that of all the classic Superman elements that have been reintroduced, all the talent placed on the book and all the reaffirmation of Superman's classic identity, it's a cover with CHECKS ON IT that makes some people realize we're in a new age? Wha - ?

I mean, it wasn't the return of Krypto, or the new Krypton in "Return to Krypton" (even if it was retconned at the last second by gutless editors) or the new Superman origin in BIRTHRIGHT now stated definitively as the new Superman origin, or Grant Morrison doing that tribute book ALL-STAR, or BATMAN/SUPERMAN returning the "chummy" Superman Batman team dynamic (their praise of each other in that series is so glowing it borders on the homoerotic), Geoff Johns having Power Girl take center stage in JSA and resume her her Pre-Crisis origin, or the brief but interesting return of Earth-2 Superman. It wasn't Lex Luthor donning his Cary Bates Lexor Battlesuit, or becoming a criminal scientist again. It wasn't Peter David briefly having guest-appearances by Silver Age Supergirl in his title. It wasn't the return of the Bizarro World (gag - of all the classic Superman elements they had to bring back THAT one?) or the reintroduction of the Martin Pasko gender-switched world from #349, or the most high profile Superman book of that year, RED SON, being clearly "classic" Superman inspired, nor was it the "classic" Krypton seen in J.M. de Matteis's "For the Man Who Has Everything" Justice League episode.

No.

It's a cover with checks on it.

Is it even POSSIBLE to be this out of touch with comics events, without having to relocate to another Solar System?

If there's ANY point where the Byrne/Helfer/Carlin age officially ended it would have to be with the return of Supergirl by Jeph Loeb, because this was a character that the Powers That Be bent over backwards to state that not only did she DIE, but that further, she never lived at all. They redid Superman's origin to account for why only HE could be the Survivor of Krypton (with the Kryptonians being bonded to their planet and die if taken off it), and further, they introduced another character to usurp Kara's place...and after all those definitive editorial statements she would never, ever in a million years return, we still got Kara back.

That's a credit to the enduring power the character has over the imagination, especially considering that except for the Pasko and Maggin stories in SUPERMAN FAMILY, even by the 1970s Kara was a has-been whose best stories had been in the sixties, which is why they found it as easy to bump her off as they did.

Administrator's Note: Supergirl discussion has been split into a new thread (http://superman.nu/smf/index.php?topic=3142.msg24526#msg24526).

Quote from: SuperMonkey
Well, the idea of an Iron Age Superman is misleading since there never was a real Superman during the Iron Age.

Gee whiz, is that a throbbing hate-boner in your pocket, or are you just angry to see me?  ;D

While I'm not a big fan of this period at all in general, I don't think I'd be as comfortable making such blanket statements...considering how extraordinary a writer Roger Stern was, and the space opera, grandiose panache he was able to give to the character - his "Panic in the Sky" was as extraordinary as the introduction of Maxima. That, or Louise Simonson...whose gift of Riot gave Superman an extraordinary dirt-level foe. And then there was the extraordinary Jerry Ordway, perhaps the single artist whose style is BEST suited for superheroes. Everything else was pretty much depressing crap, of course, with the nadir being Dan Jurgens and the "Death of" nonsense, possibly the worst comics story ever written ever. Roger, Louise and Gerry were exceptions, of course, but pretty big exceptions.

Administrator's Note: Iron Age discussion has been split into a new thread (http://superman.nu/smf/index.php?topic=3140.0).

I'm starting to understand now why H.E.A.T. never had an "official" position on Kyle Rayner, because what that would do is, make everything they do a referendum on Kyle vs. Hal.


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Superman!
Post by: MatterEaterLad on October 24, 2006, 07:40:40 PM

I mean, it wasn't the return of Krypto, or the new Krypton in "Return to Krypton" (even if it was retconned at the last second by gutless editors) or the new Superman origin in BIRTHRIGHT now stated definitively as the new Superman origin, or Grant Morrison doing that tribute book ALL-STAR, or BATMAN/SUPERMAN returning the "chummy" Superman Batman team dynamic (their praise of each other in that series is so glowing it borders on the homoerotic), Geoff Johns having Power Girl take center stage in JSA and resume her her Pre-Crisis origin, or the brief but interesting return of Earth-2 Superman. It wasn't Lex Luthor donning his Cary Bates Lexor Battlesuit, or becoming a criminal scientist again. It wasn't Peter David briefly having guest-appearances by Silver Age Supergirl in his title. It wasn't the return of the Bizarro World (gag - of all the classic Superman elements they had to bring back THAT one?) or the reintroduction of the Martin Pasko gender-switched world from #349, or the most high profile Superman book of that year, RED SON, being clearly "classic" Superman inspired, nor was it the "classic" Krypton seen in J.M. de Matteis's "For the Man Who Has Everything" Justice League episode.

Hmm...never cared for the battlesuit at all, its a kind of Boba Fett rip off...

Wish Power Girl had never been bothered to be introduced...

Liked many of the animated series because there were many references to the Silver Age aside from "For the Man Who Has Everything" in Justice League...

All Star seemed interesting, had a hard time convincing more recent fans and really needs the Action and Superman titles to back some of it up...

The Earth-2 Superman returning in a bloody sequence of junk is no real return...

But then, these are just my opinions, like others here have theirs...I didn't like even the Bronze Age stories...I have no interest in buying comics, haven't bought one in 35 years...I'm a fan of Superman and this site because of the stories I liked, though I like keeping up on more current directions.

Actually, if you look at the pages on this site over the years, many of the Iron Age pages have been removed as the story of Superman seems to be showing signs of correcting course...

So, yeah, go-go checks!!!!!!!!!!  ;D


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Super
Post by: Super Monkey on October 25, 2006, 12:30:58 AM
Quote
rankly, I find it hilarious that of all the classic Superman elements that have been reintroduced, all the talent placed on the book and all the reaffirmation of Superman's classic identity, it's a cover with CHECKS ON IT that makes some people realize we're in a new age? Wha - ?

Oh and the wasn't the Checker box (there are actually two covers, a throwback one seen here and a modern version, which hasn't been posted yet) it was the the story "Up, Up, Away". Which is the legit start of the New Superman. A soft reboot, but clearly different than EVERYTHING before that issue. This annual, is the final nail, no more half ass superman comics. Birthright was a failure, it was never really embraced, and the so called re-introductions of "classic" elements were all rather lame (Krypto isn't really from Krypton, Zod is what that is suppose to be, Kandor isn't really Kandor, etc. and Supergirl isn't really Supergirl and I guess the real one is never coming back) only NOW are we getting the truer more legit versions, not the pre-crisis versions of course, but versions that don't insult Superman fans. Real Superman fans, fans that actually care.


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Superman!
Post by: MatterEaterLad on October 25, 2006, 12:56:44 AM
Everyone has their preferences, but to me, I'll be dang if the "re-start" was "Infinite Crisis"...LOL... 8)


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Super
Post by: Super Monkey on October 25, 2006, 01:12:07 AM
Everyone has their preferences, but to me, I'll be dang if the "re-start" was "Infinite Crisis"...LOL... 8)

Well, Superman wasn't in that book, LOL! He appeared one year later. IC was just a big stinky gore encrusted bloody period to finally end the Iron Age. You can skip right over it.



Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Superman!
Post by: Great Rao on October 25, 2006, 01:24:19 AM
Beppo, thanks for digging up those old articles.  At this point, MichaelBailey's question has been asked and answered so many times during the lifetime of this site, that I've given up on answering it.  In the old days I used to just point people to all the previous threads in the forums and the old mailinglist that already dealt with it.

So I appreciate your picking up the reigns on this.

Just as there was an almost-forgotten "nether-zone" between the  Silver Age and the Bronze Age - that time which gave us such stories as The Strange Death of Superboy (http://superman.nu/tales2/strangedeath/) and the multipart saga where Superman actually contracts the X-Virus, a time when continuity and sensibility were moving away from the Silver Age and towards what they would be in the Bronze Age - I think that the change from the Iron Age to this new Age also took place over the course of a couple of years.

I agree with Julian that the elements of the new Age started coming in with Jeph Loeb's Return to Krypton, and kept coming in until Infinite Crisis and "Up, Up, and Away!" provided the opportunity for a "formal" beginning.  Just as all those post-Silver-Age continuity changes got a "formal" kick-off with Denny O'Neil's Sandman Saga.  As to whether Birthright is still considered canonical or not, I think it depends on what day of the week it is and who at DC is answering the question.


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Super
Post by: Super Monkey on October 25, 2006, 11:30:23 AM
Beppo, thanks for digging up those old articles.  At this point, MichaelBailey's question has been asked and answered so many times during the lifetime of this site, that I've given up on answering it.  In the old days I used to just point people to all the previous threads in the forums and the old mailinglist that already dealt with it.

So I appreciate your picking up the reigns on this.

I am already tired of it which is why I just "cut & paste" that post, I don't care to type it all again.

Quote
Just as there was an almost-forgotten "nether-zone" between the  Silver Age and the Bronze Age - that time which gave us such stories as The Strange Death of Superboy (http://superman.nu/tales2/strangedeath/) and the multipart saga where Superman actually contracts the X-Virus, a time when continuity and sensibility were moving away from the Silver Age and towards what they would be in the Bronze Age - I think that the change from the Iron Age to this new Age also took place over the course of a couple of years.

I agree with Julian that the elements of the new Age started coming in with Jeph Loeb's Return to Krypton, and kept coming in until Infinite Crisis and "Up, Up, and Away!" provided the opportunity for a "formal" beginning.  Just as all those post-Silver-Age continuity changes got a "formal" kick-off with Denny O'Neil's Sandman Saga.  As to whether Birthright is still considered canonical or not, I think it depends on what day of the week it is and who at DC is answering the question.

Those were all test runs, used by DC to test some ideas to see if fans were willing to embrace new versions of old ideas. You see the Post-IC Krypto will be introduced soon, see here: http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/dccomics/covers/SM-Cv659_solicit.jpg

How much the same or different he will be remains to be seen, read on.

Also the post-IC Bizarro will be introduced soon in Action Comics. Johns already has said in a few interviews (links to which has been posted on some threads here) that this will be an all new take on Bizarro. Clearly not the same one from the past three years. There will also be a new Zod, again not the same one from the past three years. Since the pre-IC Krypto was from a cloned Krypton, and that Zod no longer exist, where is Krypto from now?

So, I see that some people are confused about this latest reboot. The Post-IC Superman and ALL of the Superman cast are not exactly the same as the characters from the last three years. That's the official word from DC. That is also the reason for this thread.





Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Super
Post by: JulianPerez on October 25, 2006, 04:10:21 PM
Quote
rankly, I find it hilarious that of all the classic Superman elements that have been reintroduced, all the talent placed on the book and all the reaffirmation of Superman's classic identity, it's a cover with CHECKS ON IT that makes some people realize we're in a new age? Wha - ?

Oh and the wasn't the Checker box (there are actually two covers, a throwback one seen here and a modern version, which hasn't been posted yet) it was the the story "Up, Up, Away". Which is the legit start of the New Superman. A soft reboot, but clearly different than EVERYTHING before that issue. This annual, is the final nail, no more half ass superman comics. Birthright was a failure, it was never really embraced,

Is it? My understanding is according to Dan Didio is that it's still the current Superman origin, post-IC.

Quote from: SuperMonkey
and the so called re-introductions of "classic" elements were all rather lame (Krypto isn't really from Krypton, Zod is what that is suppose to be, Kandor isn't really Kandor, etc.

Except for Krypto, all the reintroductions you're talking about happened considerably BEFORE the past few years (in fact except Krypto, none of the ones you're talking about were introduced this CENTURY); hell, even Ron Marz at the height of his hackery, did a Kandor story in the 1990s. And I have to agree with you that they just didn't work. OF COURSE they'd be bungled; what the hell does Marz know about anything, anyway?

As for Krypto not being from Krypton...so what? I'm GLAD they didn't bring Krypto back exactly the way he was originally presented, because we've seen that before. In fact, I'd be somewhat disappointed if they didn't throw a few curve balls into the character.

Quote from: SuperMonkey
and Supergirl isn't really Supergirl and I guess the real one is never coming back)

Now this one I just don't understand.

The Supergirl reintroduced was a Kryptonian cousin of Superman.

The Loeb character has a spunky, feisty personality, and she wants to be an independent woman distinct from her famous cousin. Well, what a coincidence, because that's her exact same characterization during the entire 1970s and 1980s. I'm glad she isn't being brought back as a ditzy, hero-worshipping teen as she was under Otto Binder, because this is a story we've already SEEN. We've already SEEN her become a woman. They had the right idea advancing her to that stage in her character development, because it won't duplicate anything seen before.

What do you want? Midvale Orphanage and a pigtailed decoy robot? While I have absolutely nothing but admiration for all the writers and artists involved in that period, it was something that it would be unwise for a writer to try to duplicate today.

This was my point back during the thread about Captain Marvel and the Marvel Family: there's no denying the Marvel Family stories were great (up until around 1948, anyway) but that does not automatically mean that someone wanting to not do Captain Marvel *EXACTLY* as he was done in that period is doomed to failure, just as Superman has not been doomed to failure.

I love - absolutely love - the Silver Age and Weisenger Superman more than life itself, but I can see why Loeb would go with the late Bronze Age characterization for Supergirl.

Is it because she's made "sexy?" Hey, I'm no hypocrite or prude: I admit, I enjoy looking at cheesecake of good looking adventure women. Some things can be "sexed up" and have it work, and other things don't, and I can see why Supergirl would be someone in the former category. This is the thing I like about the Andrew Lloyd Webber PHANTOM OF THE OPERA or the most recent "Will Smith" Doctor Who: they added elements of sexuality to a character that made them more interesting. What is "Music of the Night" about, where the Phantom asks Christine to "help him make the music of the night?" HINT: Not actually about making music at night.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine, where we were talking about Dan Slott's use of the villain Maelstrom in GREAT LAKES AVENGERS ("See ME, Thanos! I will make whatever evil you have wrought look like CHILD'S PLAY!"). He said Maelstrom had been mischaracterized there. My response was "okay, did you read his appearance in FANTASTIC FOUR QUARTERLY?" He hadn't, so that issue didn't exist for him.

Quote from: SuperMonkey
Real Superman fans, fans that actually care.

Are we fans, or an insurance company?  :D


Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Super
Post by: Super Monkey on October 25, 2006, 07:23:39 PM
Is it? My understanding is according to Dan Didio is that it's still the current Superman origin, post-IC.

It is not. Kurt and Johns don't want to give it all away at once, instead giving it to us in bits, each bit contradicts Birthright.

I am sure that you could make a nice long list if you wanted to.



Title: Re: It's Offical... the Iron Age Superman is DEAD... Long Live the Post-IC Super
Post by: Great Rao on November 06, 2006, 11:13:35 AM
Frankly, I find it hilarious that of all the classic Superman elements that have been reintroduced, all the talent placed on the book and all the reaffirmation of Superman's classic identity, it's a cover with CHECKS ON IT that makes some people realize we're in a new age? Wha - ?

The moment of realization for me was when Superman and Adventures of Superman were merged back into one title.  Given that the Iron Age was launched with the title being split, I think the merger is a good official cut-off point for its end.  The symbolism of "Superman" (both the comic and the character) being messed with, but then repaired, fits well too.