Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Superman Through the Ages! => Supermanica => Topic started by: Great Rao on December 08, 2006, 12:40:27 AM



Title: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: Great Rao on December 08, 2006, 12:40:27 AM
In this thread (http://superman.nu/smf/index.php?topic=3199) Bepppo writes:

Quote from: Super Monkey
The rules are not something I came up with on my own, but something we all decided. All the threads are still here if anyone wants to read them.

The only other thread I've been able to find that mentions the Earth-1/Earth-2 issue is this one (http://superman.nu/smf/index.php?topic=1993.0).  In it, Telle writes:
Quote from: Telle
Managing these various parallel versions of the canonical characters is shaping up to be a Crisis of Multiversal proportions.

I can't remember having a specific discussion on the issue of Earth-1/Earth-2 redundancy.  The original author of the Great Superman Book never acknowledged the concept of Earth-2 as canonical references to it came relatively late in his project.

For the most part, the majority of "redundant" Earth-2 (and other) entries are just that: unless they differ in some essential way from their E-1 counterparts, it is hard to justify separate entries.  Of course, even very minor players in the canon will eventually receive entries (if they haven't already), so efforts to police these will prove hopeless.  Some E-2 entries already link to E-1 articles.

The difference between some E-1 and 2 characters is cut and dried (the E-1 Planet staff is the E-2 Star staff).  As for the villains, Ultra encounters a Superman who works for the Star in the 1930s (his last appearance is Act 21, 1940 whereas the last mention of the Star is Act 22) and so may be said to be strictly an Earth-2 phenomenon if not for the musings in the Planet and Star (and on their employees) entries by Fleisher.  Tough call but I would be willing to exile Ultra to Earth-2 and eliminate any entry for an E-1 Ultra.  Other villains who made intitial Golden Age appearances outside of the Canon, like the Wizard, are even harder.  Detective 27 is extra-canonical but rates a reference as the first app of E-1 Batman.  By that logic, the Wizard is an E-1 villain with no analogue in the canon except as an E-2 villain.

These are the paradoxes that the Mr and Mrs Superman authors enjoyed playing with and I think they were very careful and selective in their use of villains, restricting them mainly to the period before Act 22.

Tough questions!  No easy answers that I can see.


Quote from: Super Monkey
But to review, here is a FAQ if you will:

Who is the Golden Age Superman?

He is the Earth-1 Superman from 1938 to 1955.

Is he different from the Silver Age (1956-1970) or the Bronze Age (1971-1986) Superman?

No they are all the same person and all of their stories take place on Earth-1 as stated in the Comics and in TGSB

I agree that they are all one person in the comics and in TGSB - but I don't think that that one person is called the "Earth-1 Superman".  I think that Superman was first referred to as the "Earth-1 Superman" at some point in the 1970s - but before that, he was just "Superman."  I don't think the Golden Age Superman can be retconned into being either the Earth-2 Superman nor the Earth-1 Superman.

Quote from: Super Monkey
What is Earth-2?

Earth-2 was first encountered by the Flash in The Flash No. 123, Sep 1961: "Flash of Two Worlds!". It is a Parallel World. It is based on the comics of the Golden Age.

So does that mean that all the Golden Age comics happen on Earth-2?

No, it is only based on the Golden Age, it is not the actual Golden Age. Many of the real life Golden Age Superman stories and facts are contradicted in many Earth-2 Stories. For example, Lex Luthor lost his hair pretty early on during the Golden Age but he never did on Earth-2. The Daily Planet appears on 1940 until 1986. But on Earth-2, it doesn't exist, but rather in its place the Daily Star. His name was Kal-El, but on Earth-2 his name is Kal-L There are many more examples.

So the Earth-2 Superman is not the same person as the Golden Age Superman?

No, the real Golden Age happen during the years 1938 to 1955. The Earth-2 Superman doesn't appear in any comic book until 1977, in our Bronze Age!

Agreed.

Quote from: Super Monkey
But, what about this Earth-1 you keep referring to, that didn't appear until the Silver Age!

No, this is wrong. Only the name didn't appear until this time, but the world itself existed since 1938 (in our world). It doesn't make sense to call something Earth-1 if there are not other Earths to compare it too.

In this case I agree with the questioner.

Quote from: Super Monkey
Ok, but how can I tell if something took place on Earth-2 or not?

ALL Earth-2 stories always label themselves as Earth-2 stories, so you are in luck, if the story doesn't claim to take place on Earth-2, then it doesn't take place on Earth-2. Pretty easy huh?

But, wait a second, sometimes DC referred to the Earth-2 Superman as the Golden Age Superman! I mean, LOOK at this monkey boy! In ya face sucker!!! http://superman.nu/tales2/e2-origin/

Is that comics listed here: http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Canonical_sources ?

Yeah, I didn't think so, nice try though.

Once again, TGSB just like DC Comics treats the Golden, Silver and Bronze Age Superman as the same person and thus so do we.
Agreed.


Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: Super Monkey on December 08, 2006, 06:40:23 AM
Quote
But, what about this Earth-1 you keep referring to, that didn't appear until the Silver Age!

No, this is wrong. Only the name didn't appear until this time, but the world itself existed since 1938 (in our world). It doesn't make sense to call something Earth-1 if there are not other Earths to compare it too.

In this case I agree with the questioner.

Earth-1 is not a proper name, but a label. There was no reason to refer to Earth as anything but Earth if the heroes never knew other Earths existed. Only after the discovery of other Earths was there first a need to label their Earth... Earth-1. Earth-1 wasn't a brand new Earth, but just a label in order to set it apart from the other Earths (Earth-2, Earth-3, Earth-S, etc) which were discovered.


Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: MatterEaterLad on December 08, 2006, 08:17:12 AM
I bet some of this comes down to agreement on canonical sources as well, or the ability of a newcomer to write TO canonical sources.

For instance, this story arc in JLA (/JSA) doesn't just hint at an Earth-2 Superman, it shows him and names him (and this was 1970, well before the 1977 Superman of Earth-2).  I assume its very hard for an outsider stumbling on Supermanica to disregard these stories.

http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=23630&zoom=4


Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: Super Monkey on December 08, 2006, 06:27:22 PM
is this page that hard to understand?
http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

I feel it is pretty easy to follow. I believe Rao just re-wrote it a bit to make it even easier but any suggestions to make this project idiot/fool proof, please suggest it! I rather encourage people to add and edit rather than scare them into not joining the fun.

Perhaps we should add a real FAQ? Rather than the mock one I posted here (yes I was talking to myself there ;))


Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: MatterEaterLad on December 08, 2006, 06:49:05 PM
is this page that hard to understand?
http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

You're probably going to hate this but, yeah, I think that people cruising in simply don't separate Superman from DC comics as a whole...if they see Superman in the JLA or Justice Society, they go with the entire DC scenario.

You have to admit that posters here have a pretty sophisticated understanding and can make the separation.

Here's what I see in my head...someone runs across a link or googles a favorite DC or Superman concept, goes to Supermanica and thinks "how could they leave out X?"...and you have to admit that DC as a whole did a lot to foster the idea that Earth-2 was the Golden Age in the 60s and 70s.  One thing that I think that TGSB did well was avoid Earth-2 because Earth-2 was defined by comics that weren't Superman (even though he participated in them).

So yeah, I think a good FAQ would help, at least for non-stubborn people who are willing to actually read (I'm sure that includes about 3% of people on the internet  8) )


Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: TELLE on December 13, 2006, 04:54:06 PM
Wow.  When faced with the problem of indoctrinating newbies, my immediate response is, "why did we make this thing so seemingly arbitrary and slavishly devoted to The Great Superman Book by Fleisher?"

I must confess, half the time I think of the Golden Age Superman as the Earth-2 Superman!  It involves a different mindset to think about E-2 adventures only existing post-1970 (or post-1961 if we are feeling charitable).

I am also beginning to feel that our arbitrary choice of canon titles will have to be expanded at some point to include the JLA, at the very least.

For the moment I will try to be more diligent in welcoming newcomers/policing entries as well  --I've been pretty dormant on Supermanica lately but maybe over the Holidays?  The FAQ is a good idea, as is greater clarity about E-2.  Maybe we could work on a lengthier, Fleisher-style article on the subject.



Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: TELLE on December 13, 2006, 05:02:21 PM
Maybe we could work on a lengthier, Fleisher-style article on the subject.

Oh, I see that Rao has already started this:

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Earths_1_and_2

When I read that I thought the next thing to do would be to add a "Meta" category, but then realized that the "Supermanica" serves just fine.  In addition to using the "talk" feature more often, we should add more articles in "Supermanica" to expand on the differences between fandom's view of the canon and Supermanica's view.  Another area of clarity would maybe be the actual Ages --fans love to dispute these dates and maybe we could explain our own take. Or does this invite too much deviation from our main project?

 


Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: MatterEaterLad on December 13, 2006, 05:30:44 PM
I also think people click on the articles hyperlink pretty quickly.  I think that there should be a hyperlink to this page on the homepage in the text, maybe linked to text saying "read these articles before adding entries" or something similar.

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Category:Supermanica

And I do like the Earth 1 and 2 article, maybe just a reference to its 1960s history, and a definite comic that shows the first appearance of the Earth-2 Superman in the JLA along with saying that this is not a part of the canonical references for Supermanica.


Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: Great Rao on December 14, 2006, 12:26:40 AM
Wow.  When faced with the problem of indoctrinating newbies, my immediate response is, "why did we make this thing so seemingly arbitrary and slavishly devoted to The Great Superman Book by Fleisher?"
Telle, that's an excellent question and lately I've been wondering the same thing myself.

Quote
I must confess, half the time I think of the Golden Age Superman as the Earth-2 Superman!  It involves a different mindset to think about E-2 adventures only existing post-1970 (or post-1961 if we are feeling charitable).

I am also beginning to feel that our arbitrary choice of canon titles will have to be expanded at some point to include the JLA, at the very least.

I have recently been considering opening up the canon to the new post-infinite crisis books but then I began to have serious doubts about the 1986 cut-off date entirely - that's twenty years ago and Supermanica runs the risk of becoming completely obselete.

And I wonder about limiting the canonical sources to specific comic books.  I think it's time to stop trying to be the Catholic Church, and to be more ecumenical in our approach.  I think Supermanica should be open to any and all Superman stories from all media and from all eras.  The published stories, the unpublished stories (like K-Metal and the secret origin of the Legion Clubhouse), the radio show, the dailies, all the TV shows, all the movies, the Maggin novels and short stories, etc.  Superman is bigger than what we few think he should be.

This would mean that, for instance, instead of just having celebrity articles about Don Rickles and Orson Welles, we could also have entries for Lucy Ricardo and for Jerry Seinfeld.  We could put the Mole Men back in, we can include the events of All-Star Superman, the Fleischer 'toons and the Spider Lady from the Kirk Alyn serial.

Some here have complained that if we did this, the Iron Agers would take over.   They wouldn't take over - there's far too much non-Iron Age content that they could be swamped with - but so what if they tried?  Let them have their say, but keep a leash on them.

That's the way that wikis work.  The people who care are the people who control the content.  If some Iron Age kid comes in and writes about Superman killing the PZ criminals - and if you don't like it - then you'd have options:

Just be obnoxious and delete it;
Be more polite and delete it because he neglected to cite his references (and cite this as the reason for its deletion);
Reword it to tone it down and make it more objective;
Just ignore it and let him take over;
Bury it amidst twenty pages of Silver and Bronze Age goodness detailing all the many times that Superman has quoted his code against killing, the times it was stated that he'd never killed and never would kill, the times that he has exiled himself to the moon or somewhere back in the past for the benefit of humanity after mistakenly believing that he had killed someone, etc.  Instead of just complaining about what's happening on Supermanica - do something about it!  Add more of what you like, delete what you don't like, and discuss the whys and wherefores on the article discussion pages. 

In this way, the wiki's contents will be determined by who cares most.  This sort of set-up also encourages discussion and cooperation and seems to work extremely well on Wikipedia.  People have to hammer things out.

If all references are cited, and all contradictions clearly explained and all conflicting stories are allowed and presented in an objective manner, then the choice on what is canonical is left to the ultimate authority: the reader.  Just make sure that if you think something is important, that it's there.

I believe that the Great Superman Book is an excellent guide on how to handle this:  All conflicts are mentioned.

Quote from: Telle
In addition to using the "talk" feature more often, we should add more articles in "Supermanica" to expand on the differences between fandom's view of the canon and Supermanica's view.  Another area of clarity would maybe be the actual Ages --fans love to dispute these dates and maybe we could explain our own take. Or does this invite too much deviation from our main project?

I think that for Supermanica to succeed, such "meta" discussion pages are absolutely necessary.  People need to know and understand what the rules and guidelines are, and they need to have the opportunity to participate in the creation of same.

Quote from: Telle
For the moment I will try to be more diligent in welcoming newcomers/policing entries as well  --I've been pretty dormant on Supermanica lately but maybe over the Holidays?  The FAQ is a good idea, as is greater clarity about E-2.  Maybe we could work on a lengthier, Fleisher-style article on the subject.

Sounds great, I look forward to seeing it.

Quote from: MatterEaterLad
I also think people click on the articles hyperlink pretty quickly.  I think that there should be a hyperlink to this page on the homepage in the text, maybe linked to text saying "read these articles before adding entries" or something similar.

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Category:Supermanica

And I do like the Earth 1 and 2 article, maybe just a reference to its 1960s history, and a definite comic that shows the first appearance of the Earth-2 Superman in the JLA along with saying that this is not a part of the canonical references for Supermanica.

I agree, these are good ideas.


Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: TELLE on December 14, 2006, 12:55:22 PM
Wow.  When faced with the problem of indoctrinating newbies, my immediate response is, "why did we make this thing so seemingly arbitrary and slavishly devoted to The Great Superman Book by Fleisher?"
Telle, that's an excellent question and lately I've been wondering the same thing myself.



I have recently been considering opening up the canon to the new post-infinite crisis books but then I began to have serious doubts about the 1986 cut-off date entirely - that's twenty years ago and Supermanica runs the risk of becoming completely obselete.

And I wonder about limiting the canonical sources to specific comic books.  I think it's time to stop trying to be the Catholic Church, and to be more ecumenical in our approach.  I think Supermanica should be open to any and all Superman stories from all media and from all eras. 

Ha ha --I make one little suggestion and you go crazy! :)

I agree that the wiki format has built-in safeguards, checks and balances but it also quite a bit of work --not to mention depressing to think that so many people would rather write about the Iron Age.


Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: Super Monkey on December 14, 2006, 08:18:32 PM
That is crazy!

The day that Iron Age is consider canon is the day I stop going to the Supermanica forever. I mean wasn't that the whole point? To preserve the spirit of Superman? To teach people about the real Superman?

That said, I wouldn't be against a Superman Serials Category or a Adventures of Superman one, or a Fleischer/Famous Cartoons Superman one, a Superman novels one, and a Superman films one (including new films), Superfriends, and the other Superman and Superboy cartoons.

I would even be for including all appearances of Superman and I mean all before 1986!

To keep things current, I would even be for an All-Star Superman one and even a Mercury Age one!

But never, ever an Iron Age one, that's crazy talk! Plus the Wiki already exist for that.


However, before we go crazy and include the above, we should complete it in full using the current Canon sources. Only after that, would the rest be warranted. Once we actually run out of stuff to add, then and only then we should think of including JLA, LSH, and the rest.

There is no reason for that now, just because of one person causing trouble.

Crazy indeed...


Well, that's my opinion anyway, for what it's worth.

 




Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: MatterEaterLad on December 14, 2006, 09:08:46 PM
I guess I think that the entries that are already in Supermanica come from many, many hours work from people who care and used a certain set of rules to enter them.  I know it was often a challenge to me to incorporate all the right references, and use the language to conform to the original rules.  It was even fun researching a lot of 70s era stories that I still don't like, but it was fun to learn about them.

What I liked about Supermanica (and contrasts to Wiki in general) is that it was directed in scope, making it something that the few people who stop by to work on it to keep on top of.  Its actually unique among a lot of wikis for that reason.

I wouldn't mind separate pages for Superman serials, newspaper strips, TV or movies, but I'm not particularly interested in them.  But having a Lucy Ricardo entry in the same list of entries as The Toyman would make the catalog less relevant to me.  Lucy Ricardo is a fictional character that met the "real" George Reeves at a fictional birthday party -- its interesting but far from the story of Superman to me.

One thing I will say is that keeping the exact prose of TGSB was always a little too rigid for me, it is lifted text and doesn't always mesh well with later stories, and editing it in takes some work.  I like the idea of TGSB and liked that its rules were adopted here, I just was never a huge fan of pasting in entries word-for-word from it.

And yeah, if it had Iron Age stories, or even for that matter, post Iron Age references, I would just assume its a copy of the current DC wikis and never visit it.  Just like this site...I may never be a fan of the Maggin and Bates stories like many here, but the pre-Crisis approach and respect for history of this site is why I come here rather than other web sites.


Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: TELLE on December 15, 2006, 04:16:50 AM
What I liked about Supermanica (and contrasts to Wiki in general) is that it was directed in scope, making it something that the few people who stop by to work on it to keep on top of.  Its actually unique among a lot of wikis for that reason.

And it is working --as has been mentioned here before, entries show up high in google searches.  As well, I've even seen academics who are interested in comics direct each other to Supermanica entries.


Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: DrJohnnyDiablo on December 17, 2006, 08:19:43 PM
I agree with the Great Rao about the non-comics entries, with reservations. I've been watching the DVDs of the first two seasons of the George Reeves series and it would be fun to add entries on the Mole Men or Ro-Zan or Sarah and Eben Kent.

However, I dread seeing entries based on Lois and Clark! :'(

As far as the comics go, I would prefer to stick to the pre-Man of Steel days, for now at least.


Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: MatterEaterLad on December 17, 2006, 08:30:14 PM
If the Golden Age does change in definition, its a major category, so all the entries will have to be gone through to look at the dates of the references.  One problem with Wiki is that once there are a lot of entries, new categories or definitions of categories take a lot of editing.


Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: Super Monkey on December 17, 2006, 11:10:59 PM
I don't understand why the  "The  Golden Age" is listed as 1938-1948 here: http://superman.nu/a/comics.php

but not there, other than no one knows what 1948-1958 should be called.

Yes, it would make quite a mess of things.

So maybe it is better to just leave it as is.


Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: Super Monkey on December 18, 2006, 11:30:46 PM
You know the Great Rao had already written about the differences at this very site, I added them to the entry: http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Earths_1_and_2

You can read the full article here: http://superman.nu/a/History/VersionI.php

and the quote:

Although the Earth 2 Superman is portrayed as being the character who appeared in the comics in the '40s, a number of differences exist. Perry White first appears as Clark Kent's boss in Superman #7 in December 1940, although the Earth 2 Superman supposedly never met Perry until after Clark Kent became editor of the Daily Star in the early '50s.  The Daily Planet first appears in Superman #4, Spring 1940, with George Taylor as its editor.  In another discrepancy the Earth 2 Luthor is portrayed as red headed, but the bald version of Luthor first appeared in Superman #10, June 1941.

The 1940s Superman also seems to have had a power that the Earth 2 Superman lacks, the ability to use his "super muscular control" to contort his face into any form of disguise that he wishes.  This power was first used in Superman #18 and continued to be used through the end of 1947.



Title: Re: Earths 1 and 2
Post by: TELLE on December 19, 2006, 10:49:37 PM
I don't understand why the  "The  Golden Age" is listed as 1938-1948 here: http://superman.nu/a/comics.php

but not there, other than no one knows what 1948-1958 should be called.

We should definitely keep 1938-58 as the Golden Age.  Even other popular dating systems (ie, Overstreet's use of the Atomic Age) are not widely accepted and are confusing to boot.  The metallic aging system, adapted from Biblical and ancient Greek sources, is, to say the least, compromised when we add anything else to the mix.

Not sure why this debate started?