Superman Through the Ages! Forum

I suggested, rather coincidentally on June 30, that maybe Superman Returns wasn't the sequel to Superman II. Maybe it was the sequel to Superman II: The Donner Cut. After watching the two movies in sequence this week, I think this theory may be right.
(see old thread here: http://superman.nu/smf/index.php?topic=2772.0 )

I haven't read the Superman Returns comics that come between Superman II and Superman Returns, but as things stood, Lester's version of Superman II couldn't come before Superman Returns, for a number of reasons.

1) The Green Crystal. In Superman II the green crystal was found in the rubble, and used to return Superman's powers to him...only it didn't show how this happened. In the Donner Cut, the same scenario occurred, but with extra footage showing how it happened. How could Luthor use the crystals in Superman Returns if they had been destroyed? Perhaps they weren't destroyed, thanks to Superman's time reversal in the Donner Cut.

2) In Superman Returns, Kitty remarks to Lex in the Fortress that he's acting like he's been there before. He pauses (similar to Lois' deja vu moment at the end of the Donner cut) but does not respond that he has. This suggests that it probably never happened, if for no other reason than the fact that Lex wouldn't use the same trick twice. It's likely that he never escaped with Mrs. Teschmacher the first time, and never  got the opportunity to track "alpha waves" to the North Pole, until now.

3) At the end of Lester's Superman II, Superman promises the President to never leave them again. And then he does, if Superman Returns is the sequel. But if it follows the Donner cut, Superman never broke any such promise.

4) The Baby...which is the more likely Superman scenario?

Scenario A, Lester: Superman sleeps with Lois, super-kisses the memory away, and 5-6 years later she discovers that her child is Superman's, leading her to assume that Superman has probably raped her at some point..or

Scenario B, Donner: Superman and Lois mutually agree to end their relationship, Superman travels back through the time barrier to keep it from happening, but hooks up with her some time later...as Superman, not Clark. This results in a super-lovechild.

5) "The Son becomes the Father..." Superman never heard this in his adult life, according to Lester's Superman II. But according to Donner's, Superman retains the memories of the Jor-Elogram saying this before giving him his powers back.


So...did Bryan Singer ever see the Donner Cut footage? Yes: http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=91990

Tom Mankiewicz: "I’ve met Bryan Singer a couple of times and he said when he was doing X-Men he would go back to his trailer and just watch Superman all the time. He wanted to bring Superman Returns back to the sensibility of the first Superman. Bryan used to come down and visit us in the editing room over the summer when we were putting this new cut of Superman II together again with [film editor and preservationist] Michael Thau."

If you watch Superman, Superman II: The Donner Cut, and Superman Returns in sequence there is a great deal of clarity. Not so with Lester's film.

I've changed the timeline (http://superman.nu/fos/thescreen/returns/timeline.php) as you've suggested.

Donner's Superman I and II are clearly about Superman and Jor-El's relationship, between son and father - about the son becoming the father and the father the son. This is clearly continued and extended into Superman Returns, especially the final scene with Jason.  So whether or not the continuity all completely matches, the three movies seem to me to be a trilogy centered around that idea.

The only thing missing from Superman Returns was the bit at the end where he flies around the Earth to turn back time.  Then all three movies would have been completely identical. ;)

Of course, Superman's meddling with the timestream could've forked off multiple continuums (continua?).  Obviously, Superman II was a Hypertime concoction resulting from his interference in Superman I.  III and IV was one particular fork in time degenerating.  Donner's II was another Hypertime fork.  Heck, in one alternate timestream, he ends up on Mackinac Island and uses super-hypnosis to go back somewhere in time to meet up with Jane Seymour.  But that's a different story.  :)

Seriously, I think trying to wedge continuity out of Superman Returns has enough problems without adding the Donner cut to the mix. 

The whole idea of Superman being able to turn back time or change history is ABSOLUTE GARBAGE.

Hey, it could have worked in Superman Returns.  They could have written the movie so that that's how Superman eliminates the new Kryptonian continent, because Lex never got the crystal, etc.  But with all kinds of inconsistencies like the widow still stays dead, Superman still "returned" and found out about Jason, etc.  It'd be great!  ;D

I suppose this could work.  We see in the Donner cut that people seem to be vaguely aware that something odd has happened in their lives.  Perry gets up from his desk and dashes over to his door, only to stop, look around bewildered, shake his head and go back to work.  Lois tries to type "the biggest story of my career" and can't remember what it is.  It makes sense, then, that if Luthor really is a super-genius, his mind might be able to access a tad more than most people's.  He might have some powerful intuition, some subconcious pull to the North Pole. 


This is actually an argument not to count either version of Superman II.  The only thing you need that movie for is to explain when the two had sex.  It's just as easy to say they did it sometime when we weren't looking.

On the other hand, there's the question of whether Lois *remembers* having sex with Superman.  She seems genuinely convinced Jason is not his kid, until the end when she finds out the same way the rest of us do.  The temptation is to think her confusion arises from the mind-wipe, but maybe not.  After all, the "Maury" show is full of women who think they know who the father of their child is, but are dead wrong.

The big problem is that considering this is supposed to be the romance of the century, Lois moves on awfully fast.  Jason is 5 years old; Superman has been gone five years.  In order for there to be even a possibility that Richard is the father of Jason, Lois would have to have slept with him pretty much as soon as Superman vanished.  Actually, allowing for nine months of pregnancy, she'd have to have been "cheating" on Superman even before he left.


Well, the Jor-Elogram (I LOVE that!) did tutor Superman for 12 years, so it's possible he said it more than once.  It's also possible Superman is so much his father's son that he says the phrase thinking he made it up himself, never concious of the fact that he's repeating history.

It's been a while since I saw Superman Returns so I don't remember the details of this - but does Richard actually believe that he is Jason's biological father?  I was under the impression that he came along and started a relationship with a single mom (Lois).

Well, I haven't seen it in a long time, either.  I watched the first hour last night, but had to go to bed.  :D

Maybe I'm misremebering the whole thing; somehow I thought it was implied that Richard could be the father. 

So what are we to think about Lois?  Did she have a kid as a result of the Superman II sex, and can't remember who she slept with, or indeed whether it's an immaculate conception?  Or...are we all assuming the events of Lester's Superman II are relevant (if they even happened) when in fact they don't factor in at all; ie Lois had some sexual tryst with Superman we did not see and which she remembers just fine (no magic kiss amnesia here).  Meaning she's always known who's kid it is, but keeps it from Superman because she doesn't want him in Jason's life?  Or was she as surprised as we were to see Jason exhibit super powers at the end of the film, and only then figured it all out?

Rather an important plot point not to have made it any clearer than it is.

Okay, I watched the rest last night.

I was reminded of what I thought on first viewing; Lois seems to know who's kid it is all along, but keeps it from both Jason and Superman.  When the kid crushes the guy with the piano, he tells Lois "I'm sorry, Mommy," which I originally took to mean "I know I'm not supposed to use my powers in public" (though I suppose he might just as well be saying, "sorry I killed a man back there").  Then there's that moment where he goes to use his inhaler and he doesn't need to.  Is this because using his powers has suddenly "cured" his asthma, or because the whole "asthma" thing was just part of his secret ID, and now he figures what's the point?  Even before he throws the piano, there's a moment when Lois, on the floor, looks at him desperately.  It could mean, "what's going to become of my poor child?" but it could just as easily mean, "Hey, super-powered kid, I could use a little help over here!"

It was only later, reading all the comments on the web, that I picked up on the idea that Lois couldn't remember Jason's parentage because of the super-hypnosis kiss in S:II. 

My wife seemed to think that Kryptonite had made Jason more powerful. Remember, Lex held some up to his face and he seemed unaffected. Then, when he grew a giant kryptonite island, Jason suddenly was able to throw pianos and use telescopic vision. Maybe an unlikely scenario, but interesting.

Here are some more points to ponder, though. How would Lois not recognize the father of her child when Clark comes back to work? How would she know about secret identities if she's never suspected Superman of having one?

Sloppy writing all the way around.

And no real understanding of who and what Superman really is.

A pox on ALL your houses - Donner II, Lester II and Singer!

Where's Zod now that we need him????

Well, here we see the problem with the film.  A lot of things are never explained, so we're left to guess.  Usually it helps when actors reveal things through their facial expressions, but we've got a fairly wooden crowd here (except Routh, who I really like), so we're up a stump.

Is Jason affected by the Kryptonite?  What is that look on his face?  Pain? Fear? Curiosity?  He doesn't writhe in agony, but is he supposed to be emoting a certain degree of discomfort (as a half-human, maybe it doesn't hurt him as much)?  I can't tell (Luthor seems undecided as well).  Similarly, I think there are number of places where a visual cue from Lois might have helped me along, but I can't read her, either. Whether this is because of the limited range of the actors or because Singer told them "don't give it away too soon," I don't know, but when it's all over I still don't know what to think.


Well, this is just another argument for leaving Superman II out of the equation altogether.  Either Lois recovers from the Lester mind-wipe or the whole sex act is undone by Donner's Earth-spinning.  If in either scenario she somehow remembers the sex, she MUST remember the secret ID, since in both cases, Superman reveals it before sleeping with her.

Therefore, Superman Returns, if it fits AT ALL into previous continuity, is a sequel to Superman: The Movie, and Superman II -- in either form -- never happened.  Sometime after the end of the first film, Superman and Lois slept together and we didn't see it. 

Actually, I prefer that to watching them get it on in Superman II.  It would have been more rewarding dramatically to have us suddenly realize "wow, Superman and Lois DID IT!" than to actually watch them get funky in that Harlequin Romance bed scene in the second film.

I have said this from the beginning. If Superman 2 (any edit) actually happen in the Superman Returns timeline, then why did Ma Kent tell Superman that they didn't know if there are others like him (something like that). Clearly, if Superman 2 happen, then Clark would have known as would have the whole world! But it didn't happen, so as far as Superman knows, he is the only one who survived from Krypton.

That's a really good point.  I guess we won't know for certain until Zod (returns?) in the Superman Returns sequel.  Maybe we'll get a live-action Krypto too, that'd be the bee's knees.  Krypto vs. Zod!  I can see it now...  ;D

I've come to believe that there has to be some meshing of the two versions of Superman II in order to make a coherent universe in regards to how Superman Returns fits into the scheme. 

As far as what Martha told Clark in regards to not finding others like him, the Lester cut of Superman II was very ambiguous as to the fate of Zod and the others.  I know that the deleted material was there that showed them being arrested by the Arctic Patrol (?!) but as it wasn't in the theatrical/video version, it does leave room for the possibility that they died in that chasm in the Fortress of Solitude.  At least I think it does.  And of course I know that the Donner cut shows them being put back in the Phantom Zone with Supe's time reversal.  So could it be that saying that they don't exist be valid even if they are back in the Phantom Zone be valid as they are not existing within our own universe?

And going back to the mesh thing, I've long believed that seeing how Superman Returns turned out, that while it does seem a lot more valid as coming from events of the Donner cut, having Lois pregnant with Clark's child and Lex knowing where the Fortress still was in that way makes the film more of a sequel to the Lester cut.  Otherwise those are huge continuity gaffes.  And as far as the crystals in the Fortress being back in one piece, of course in the Donner version with the time reversal, it would have likely restored the Fortress.  And if memory serves, Donner did say that if he could have, they would have made a new ending to the film since the time reversal was stuck into the first film at Warner's request.  So who knows what impact that revised ending would have had, had Donner and Mankiewicz (sp?) been able to do that.  But if it were from the Lester cut, I guess I would speculate that since the Lester cut left the restoration of Clark's powers vague and open to imagination, perhaps one could speculate that restoring his powers didn't drain all the energy in that crystal and that using that crystal after everything was over he was able to rebuild the crystals and the library of knowledge and that's how it was intact in regards to the Fortress being restored. 

There are ways for it to be a sequel to the Donner cut.

There are ways for it to be a sequel to the Lester cut.

I suppose, in the final analysis, it'll be up to the individual viewer to decide.  *shrugs*

My only major problem with Superman Returns is the way that Lex Luthor Returns. He misappropriated nuclear weapons!!!%&$*#$@

 The "I got released because Superman didn't show up to testify against me at my hearings (for killing the two guards in Addis Abbaba)" line is HOGWASH. The government would have had Luthor in a hole so deep even Kal's XRay vision wouldn't be able to find him. Either that, or they would have put LL to work for the government in some ultrasecret think tank.

Whew - I had to get that off my chest! Thanks peopel!

Depending on how far back Superman turned back time, maybe they didn't have a lot on Luthor without Superman in I or in Donner's II, especially if Teschmacher cleaned up the underground lair before Superman got around to showing the cops.  And, Luthor could make the case that he was under duress by the Phantom Zone criminals in Lester's II, with only a mindwiped Lois to contradict.  Of course, the U.S. government was portrayed as incompetent, but that's not much of a stretch.  Heck, we have congressmen who spout off about Islamic extremists being the bad guys who approved the posting of "how to make a nuclear bomb in Arabic" on a government website and got re-elected.  (Yeah, we need a Superman now more than ever.  :) )

Thinking about it...

The Donner Cut comes first... Superman turns back time (as we saw) and the PZ criminals are back in the PZ.  Then as a result of that, events start all over again (with some differences) resulting in the Lester version...

So there... both versions happened!

I blame it on a Superboy-Prime punch ;)

Superman Returns was a mess in a number of ways, but I can see it being more of a sequel to the Donner cut of Superman II than anything else.